Sprint Cuts Cogent Off the Internet

superbus1929 writes "I work as a security analyst at an internet security company. While troubleshooting an issue, we learned why our customer couldn't keep his site-to-site VPN going from any location that uses Sprint as its ISP: Sprint has decided not to route traffic to Cogent due to litigation. This has a chilling effect; already, this person I worked with cannot communicate between a few sites of his, and since Sprint is stopping the connections cold (my traceroutes showed as complete, and not as timing out), it means that there is no backup plan; anyone going to Cogent from a Sprint ISP is crap out of luck."

Comments

Oh, good.

[FooAtWFU]

I'd been considering cancelling my laptop's EVDO service with Sprint for a while now (it's a little pricey and I don't really need it). This will be a great excuse to tell them when I call them up. :)

Re:Oh, good.

[Anonymous Coward]

except that wireless customers cant get to cogent either.

Re:Oh, good.

[Hes Nikke]

so the excuse to not boycot sprint is that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing? fuck that, i'm boycotting sprint as an entire company.

Re:Oh, good.

[nyu2]

Agree. When a company builds up a brand, then puts lots of things under that brand, they do it so that you'll carry over goodwill from one product to the next. It seems only fair to carry over the badwill as well.

Re:Oh, good.

[Anonymous Coward]

No, I'm just going to tell them, I don't do business with dicks, and what you did was a dick move.

Re:Oh, good.

[MrZaius]

So the excuse to not boycot sprint is that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing?

If the hands are separated enough that they don't communicate about something like this, Sprint Wireless would still be in the wrong for failing to source out to an ISP that's capable of passing normal traffic, just like if they were separate companies. There's no excuse for this childish, petty nonsense.

Re:Oh, good.

[mbone]

They (Cogent) had fights with Level3 and AOL as well that had the same result: Customers of Sprint/Level3/AOL were cut off from Cogent.

And they have had (so far) the same resolution - the connection was restored after enough high level customers told them to knock it off.

Re:Oh, good.

[mlwmohawk]

If the hands are separated enough that they don't communicate about something like this,

Then an outright boycott of the company will help them better focus on their business obligations and customers.

So what is Sprint providing its customers?

[bizitch]

If I'm a Sprint customer - I'd be calling Sprint right now and ask

"What the hell am I buying from you every month?
I thought I was buying a DIA circuit - as in Direct Internet Access - but apparently you don't exactly do that. That's a breach of contract - that's a violation of your SLA - I want out of my contract now .... etc etc "

Am I nuts here? It's either the freaking internet or it isn't - WTF?

Re:So what is Sprint providing its customers?

[zappepcs]

No, you are NUTS!
Customers have a reasonable expectation of what services they are buying. If there is fine print or bait and switch tactics involved, or blatant disregard for service contract terms, there is legal reason to sue. In the USA we have lemon laws for cars and the same intent applies to everything in commercial business under the general terms of the law. Blatant theft of funds under the guise of contractual terms does not count. It may take time to prove it in court, but what I'm saying is true. Internet is NOT a vague term. Internet means what you get at your home PC screen. "Limited Internet" means something different. The promise of something good which is not delivered is just as wrong as snake oil salesmen that promise a cure. Obviously medical claims seem to fall under different rulings, but the intent of the law, and it's execution are the same. Fine print does not excuse you from delivering what your marketing group promised. ever.

Re:So what is Sprint providing its customers?

[Anonymous Coward]

As an end-customer you'd be buying access to their public network -- if they choose to depeer or black hole another network, they're usually within the right to do that since THEY own the network you're connecting to.
I'm willing to bet that Sprint describes their offering as internet access. If that's not what they're giving, it's either fraudulent misrepresentation or outright breach of contract.

Re:So what is Sprint providing its customers?

[Anonymous Coward]

That is an intranet or internet (your choice), it is not the Internet (notice the capital I).

Re:So what is Sprint providing its customers?

[SQLGuru]

You and everyone in your neighborhood has a car. You and that hot MILF down the street decide to install CB Radios so that your wife won't see you hooking up with the MILF by looking at your cell phone bill. That goes on for a while and then the MILF wants to set up a threesome with her best friend Jane, so Jane gets a CB, too. Eventually y'all progress to a huge orgy, so everyone in the neighborhood has a CB Radio. Now *THAT'S* the Internet (in more ways than one).

Layne

Re:So what is Sprint providing its customers?

[MBGMorden]

Step 5: Watch Sprint send your now unpaid bill to collections agent as your credit score takes a tumble.

You can't always go all gung-ho and declare breach of contract, reverse charges, etc. Their contracts were drafted up by rather expensive lawyers and they generally are setup such that YOU are held to a lot, but they're not going to be liable for much. That's just the perks of having the lawyers available.

Reversing the charges also isn't a good idea. It's not an action that is free of repercussions.

Asshats

[seanadams.com]

I wonder how many customers these two companies will have to lose before they realize that the right solution is to sack the lawyers.

Re:Asshats

[Deadplant]

It is not Cogent's fault.
This is (yet again) a case of the incumbent telecoms companies having a hissy fit because Cogent's prices are so much lower than theirs.
They are trying to damage Cogent's reputation as a business tactic.

Here we go

[nyu2]

This could be the beginning of serious balkanization of the internet. The value of the internet is that it connects EVERYTHING. Reduce the connections, and you reduce the utility.

note to self

[Hes Nikke]

boycot sprint for fracturing the internet

Re:How is this affecting others?

[Anonymous Coward]

I, too, am one of 100 slashdotters who just happen to have a problem at this very moment.

Guess what?

[caitsith01]

Lawyers don't cause litigation. Parties cause litigation.

IAAL. The matters which go to court are the ones where the parties are unreasonable, overly aggressive, or genuinely have a dispute about something which is worth money to both of them. It may also amaze you to learn that sometimes parties actually do breach contracts or otherwise fuck one another over, and yet when caught out they don't automatically roll over and return what they owe to the person they have wronged.

I have no influence whatsoever over whether they end up in Court. I advise my clients about their rights and prospects, and follow their instructions.

On the whole, reasonable, intelligent parties = no ligitation = no lawyers.

Re:Guess what?

[phantomfive]

Actually, that (interesting) post is an excellent example of why people don't like lawyers. "It is the wish of my client." It's the whole cool, clear, collected "I will crush you and will have no bad conscience about it because I can blame someone else" attitude. Lawyers don't cause litigation? Do you know what an ambulance chaser is?

Now granted, you may not be that type of lawyer, but there is a reason the devil is sometimes portrayed as a lawyer. Take responsibility for your actions and you will become more powerful than any average lawyer. You can't always blame the other guy.

Re:Guess what?

[Darby]

Lawyers don't cause litigation. Parties cause litigation.

Lawyers, however, enable litigation. In fact, for some lawyers, that *is* their business. You can talk in abstractions all you like, but the main difference between mathematicians and lawyers is that the mathematician's love for bizarre, pedantic arguments stays in the ivory towers. Lawyers do the same thing having massively damaging affects on the real world. Sure, some douche hired a lawyer to push some ludicrous case, and he's a douche. No argument there, but when a lawyer who's good enough at his trade argues a bullshit case convincingly that can change the way the law is applied to everyone in incredibly destructive ways. Take the mockery that's been made of the interstate commerce clause alone. Bad lawyers doing bad things that has cost the country incalculable amounts of money, integrity and damn near anything else you'd care to mention.

On the whole, reasonable, intelligent parties = no ligitation = no lawyers.

But your calculation is incomplete. Why aren't the ridiculous cases refused? Because while *you* might possess ethics, there are plenty of people who don't. Some of those people are lawyers. So even if the rest of the people were sane and decent, the sleazebag lawyers would be chasing those ambulances and working to convince the weak willed and stupid that they're owed. That's how they make a living, after all.

They also would work to arrange new ways of creating conflicts. That's just basic common sense, coupled with a society which puts profit above all and in which buying the better lawyer buys the better "justice".

Re:Guess what?

[GospelHead821]

I believe that with regard to prosecution of crimes and civil litigation, the mentality that you describe is probably the result of wanting to give aggrieved parties their day in court. Some cases may appear cut-and-dry, but aren't; looking at events in retrospective makes it easy for us to judge unfairly. If judges agree to hear cases that turn out to be absurd, I suspect it is because they believe, as I do, that it is better to err on the side of making the process of law available than to err on the side of making it immune to mockery.

Re:Guess what?

[debrain]

Lawyers, however, enable litigation. In fact, for some lawyers, that *is* their business. You can talk in abstractions all you like, but the main difference between mathematicians and lawyers is that the mathematician's love for bizarre, pedantic arguments stays in the ivory towers. Lawyers do the same thing having massively damaging affects on the real world. Sure, some douche hired a lawyer to push some ludicrous case, and he's a douche. No argument there, but when a lawyer who's good enough at his trade argues a bullshit case convincingly that can change the way the law is applied to everyone in incredibly destructive ways. Take the mockery that's been made of the interstate commerce clause alone. Bad lawyers doing bad things that has cost the country incalculable amounts of money, integrity and damn near anything else you'd care to mention.

I am a lawyer (a litigator, specifically) and a mathematician, so I question your dichotomy between the two. To over-generalize the contributions of one profession or the other on society is specious. To rebut your bald statement about the destructive nature of lawyers, it's worth noting that lawyers are responsible for: creating civil liberties such as the right for women and the right for 'colored' people to vote and attend school with white people; writing the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; defending Galileo Galilei when he published a "truth" (mathematics) when the church persecuted him for challenging their proprietary access to absolute "truth". As a generalization, mathematicians contributed to the discovery of the atomic bomb, and every other weapon ever created. More accurately, both have positive and negative effects on society (though economists might argue that because more lawyers are employed than mathematicians and generally better remunerated, they by definition have a more positive effect on society; the counter-argument is that they, like big corporations, rent-seek, vis-a-vis Ann Kruger's thesis)

Further, litigation is convincing a state (which has a monopoly on legal force) that they should enact legal force in your favour. Lawyers don't enable litigation as a form of enforceable dispute resolution, the rule of law does (i.e. the grant of state monopoly over legal force). What are the alternatives? Vigilantism? As well, the vast, vast, vast majority of lawyers don't practice any form of litigation. Only barristers (i.e. counselors-at-law) litigate; around 90% o lawyers practice as solicitors (attorneys-at-law) and never see the inside of a courtroom.

Finally, some attribute the commerce clause (and WTO/GATT-like reductions in interstate discriminatory trade practices) with the creation of more wealth in the United States than any other law in the US federation. I believe Thatcher argued that it was civil liberties. I imagine it was a combination of those two.

But your calculation is incomplete. Why aren't the ridiculous cases refused? Because while *you* might possess ethics, there are plenty of people who don't. Some of those people are lawyers. So even if the rest of the people were sane and decent, the sleazebag lawyers would be chasing those ambulances and working to convince the weak willed and stupid that they're owed. That's how they make a living, after all.

Points relevant:
1. The vast, vast majority of lawyers are ethical and have ethical clients, and to deny these people legal representation is to deny them access to justice;
2. It is unethical to deny legal representation to someone just because you do not agree with their position - it is the duty of legal counsel to advise them why you believe their position is wrong;
3. Defending a position is not the same as agreeing with it- unpopular positions (e.g. insurance companies defending against injured people making claims) have important functions (i.e. keeping insurance rates low, preventing fraud ---- fraud on insurance companies is a much, much, much bigger problem than fraud by insurance com

Re:Neutrality

[TubeSteak]

This is what the world might look like without Net Neutrality.

Oh please. Doesn't the internet route around damage?

Just because there isn't a straight line between Sprint and Cogent doesn't mean the internet is fucked.
Now all you low ping bastards are high ping bastards until the two companies kiss and make up.

Now if you can explain how exactly Net Neutrality will prevent corporate pissing contests, please do.
Otherwise -1 Overrated.

Obligatory Ironic Rhetoric.

[plasmacutter]

Clearly, this is an example of the free market prevailing in the provision of an efficient, secure, neutral, functional, and complete internet to the populace!

If only those other regulations were not getting in the way, compelling sprint to cut cogent off.

Re:Ow My Foot

[Xtifr]

You, on the other hand, seem to think that just because there's a special meaning to "begs the question" when used without an object, that the words in that phrase lose their common everyday English meaning. Now, I'll grant you that the popularity of the somewhat awkward phrasing used by GP undoubtedly derives from the existence of the specialized meaning of the phrase in a specific context. Doesn't change the fact that the phrase obviously means exactly what he intended it to mean. Anyone who can actually read English and isn't obsessed with feeding their own ego by putting others down can see that with no problem.

Saying that common English words lose their everyday meaning when used in that particular order begs the question: why would they? Telling someone they're wrong because of your theory that these words have magically lost their ordinary meaning begs the question.

That is also a breach of contract

[Sycraft-fu]

You'll discover with big lines that the providers have a good level of things they have to do for you. The bigger the line, the more they are bound by. IF they pull shit like that, well it's something that can get them hit with a large suit in court. They don't get to just cut things off if they are annoyed with you.

Re:Something is Fishy Here

[Glendale2x]

Well, based on all the past depeering wars Cogent has been in and/or started, I'm leaning towards "Cogent is being a dick again". Especially since they're doing the exact same thing they did with Level3: offering customers of their competitor free service. The story is a press release from Cogent; it's completely one-sided. As I post this, there is no statement from Sprint.

Re:Cogent is the one behind the story in link

[Anonymous Coward]

Imagine a small ISP starts of peering when there is an equal amount of traffing inbound and outbound: 1/1
Over time, the other ISP adds more and more servers, buys some other smaller ISP's, etc...., the ratio is now 4/1 or so.

Why should the "smaller" ISP be punnished for the ratio, when they still offer the exact same amount of traffic?

Yup (ATT, too)

[mkcmkc]

Exactly. I had AT&T pull this bullshit on me when they screwed up my billing after a move. If it's got your brand on it, you'd better own it...

Re:Lawyers and clients

[ozphx]

Wrong. A lawyer is like a doctor. Its someone you can go to for 100% trust and confidentiality, because you NEED their advice on sensitive matters.

I know my doctor isn't going to call my wife up with a line like "Well I can't in clear concience keep treating the clap that this cheating fucker picked up from those hookers, and I think you should divorce him."

I know my lawyer is going to represent me to the best of his ability and keep his goddamn opinions to himself unless I ask for them.

Re:Lawyers and clients

[ultranova]

However were he possessed of even the slightest hint of ethics he would have quit on the spot, called a press conference, told the public that the president was a traitor who intended to be a monarch, and that we needed to pull a Louis XVI to save the Republic.

Therefore betraying both his client and his professional duty. It wouldn't have been a very ethical thing to do at all, and certainly wouldn't have given him any grounds to call anyone else a traitor.

But the fame and potential wealth he could get by defending a traitor outweighed any integrity that scumbag might once have had.

The legal system is built on the premises that no one is guilty until proven so in a court of law, and that even traitors deserve to have defence counsel, especially when they haven't yet been proven to be traitors by said court. What you are suggesting is a lynch mob killing people they have deemed enemies of state without giving them a chance to defend themselves.

The lawyer did his duty, which was also the right thing to do. Hate Nixon and his deeds as much as you want, but that is no excuse to suppress his right to a fair trial. The second you do so, for any reason, your precious Republic is already gone and replaced with rule by arbitrary whims of whoever happens to be the most powerful at the moment; no different than Louis's France, really.

Any non-dictatorial form of government requires rule of law, because the only alternative is rule by someone's whims. Rule of law requires fair trials even to the worst scumbags, because otherwise it can be circumvented by declaring someone a scumbag. Fair trial requires that your defense attorney and everyone else acting on your behalf keep on doing that work to the best of their ability, no matter how many vomit bags they might need to use in the process, because otherwise declaring you scumbag tilts the odds against you, thus circumventing the rule of law.

Re:Lawyers and clients

[bloobloo]

Any non-dictatorial form of government requires rule of law, because the only alternative is rule by someone's whims. Rule of law requires fair trials even to the worst scumbags, because otherwise it can be circumvented by declaring someone a scumbag. Fair trial requires that your defense attorney and everyone else acting on your behalf keep on doing that work to the best of their ability, no matter how many vomit bags they might need to use in the process, because otherwise declaring you scumbag tilts the odds against you, thus circumventing the rule of law.

Substitute "scumbag" with "witch", "communist", "paedophile", "terrorist" or whatever the latest bogeyman is. Very accurate.

Nah.

[jotaeleemeese]

It didn't work with AOL. Companies trying to pull such stunts will be out of business faster than you can say "TCP/IP"

Re:Neutrality

[jafiwam]

BGP will automatically route around this "damage".

Note however, in some cases there IS only one route. There are not major backbone lines running along every interstate and state highway like you seem to think.

Sometimes, the data would need to cross an ocean for the "other" route, which works for smaller amounts of data, but not two companies worth of peering points.

Re:Ow My Foot

[Guysmiley777]

Exactly, if we can say "begging the question" means "asking the question" because many people are stupid, then why don't we just revert to pointing and grunts to communicate.

HAS THE WHOLE WORLD GONE CRAZY? AM I THE ONLY ONE HERE WHO GIVES A SHIT ABOUT THE RULES? MARK IT ZERO! - Walter Sobchak

A less Ideological definition.

[RulerOf]

I would define internet access as full connectivity to all of the IP addresses shown here that are not marked as Unallocated, Multicast, or Reserved, on all source and destination ports.

But that's just me.

Re:empty threats

[afidel]

It largely depends on your LEC (local exchange carrier) IE the people who own the physical lines. With AT&T they have the attitude "yeah we're the phone company, what are you going to do about it?". With CLEC's (like COVAD) they simply don't have enough techs to do installs that quickly.

Re:Lawyers and clients

[ozphx]

And again, there are laws covering doctor-patient confidentiality, ditto with legal counsel. "Ratting your out" is covered by law, as this is not how we want our legal system to work.

Our lawyers are expected to NOT pass personal judgement and represent us to the best of our ability, and we as a society have created laws to ensure that any "IANAL" shouting layman can be properly represented. This brings me back to the OP, who claimed that someones laywer should have "quit on the spot" and claimed his client was a "traitor". Idiotic.

Lawyers are loyal to their clients alone, and this is how it should be. I have an expectation that I can get the best possible unbiased advice and representation in the legal system, and this allows a much better percieved fairness. Or would you prefer it common practice for the RIAA to be bribing your defense lawyer in order to make sure he throws your trial?

If you have ever been involved in litigation (beyond the sensationalist crap you read in the media) you will find that "legal technicalities" are few and far between - and in general there is a fair bit of fucking common sense in the legal system.