Slashdot Mirror
Online Carpooling Service Fined In Canada
TechDirt is reporting on a disappointing development out of Canada. An Ontario transportation board has fined PickupPal, a Web-based service for arranging carpools, because a local bus company complained of the competition. (TechCrunch apparently first broke the story.) "[The transportation board has] established a bunch of draconian rules that any user in Ontario must follow if it uses the service — including no crossing of municipal boundaries — meaning the service is only good within any particular city's limits. It's better than being shut down completely, and the service can still operate elsewhere around the world, but this is yet another case where we see regulations, that are supposedly put in place to improve things for consumers, do the exact opposite."
Sorry, the link : http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/11/12/ill-never-let-canada-live-this-down/
Belief? Hope? Preference?The Existential Vortex
There is a bill already before the Ontario Legislative Assembly to update the regulations to explicitly allow this practice. It is disappointing that the OTB didn't wait until the bill had passed before passing judgement, but at least we can hope the situation won't last long. The same bill would outlaw some common driver distractions, such as television screens and handheld cell phones.
http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/bills/bills_detail.do?locale=en&BillID=2099
The article is heavily biased, although this isn't terribly surprising.
Pickup Pal is a service that allows individuals to arrange not only carpools. Specifically, it allows drivers and passengers to arrange compensation for trips.
Does this remind you of anything else? Oh, yes, a taxi company (or bus company, take your pick) which is Trentway-Wagar's complaint.
The bus company, which TW is, as an organization that arranges for buses to transport passengers for money, is bound by a series of provincial vehicle travel laws which require its drivers to be insured, to possess the correct licenses for their vehicles, and so on.
There are, in fact, specific exceptions in the specified Acts for car-pooling, but it appears that Pickup Pal does not satisfy them for various reasons (which should actually be quite obvious, prima facie).
The difficulty is that Pickup Pal is obviously not merely offering a carpool service. They are also obviously not offering a public taxi service or a bus service, either, but the carpool service has a defined exception in the law.
The law, the board argues, exists to protect riders. Drivers are to be insured, carry the proper licenses for their vehicles, and so on. (Insurance issues, which is a major public interest in cases such as these, form a major part of the Board's concern. Insuring a public vehicle is very different from insuring a private car and the caps on insurance are often much higher.)
As a result, Pickup Pal was ordered to immediately cease taking any actions that would put them in violation of the Public Vehicles Act.
Pickup Pal argues that they have nothing to do with the service, that they merely arrange this. The Board does not agree, for good reason- a taxicab company could make an identical argument. Such an argument is unpersuasive. There is a compelling public policy argument to regulating public vehicles and carriers and so on. For abiding by these regulations, Trentway-Wagar incurs costs, and they found it unfair that another provider would be able to avoid the regulations and thereby avoid the costs- hence the charge of unfair competition.
The summary writes that the regulations are making things worse for the consumer. I beg to disagree. Unsafe public transportation is worse than expensive public transportation, and there is a compelling public policy reason for regulating public transportation for safety's sake- regulations that Pickup Pal did not abide by.
"It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
I remember hearing about this story a few months ago on NPR (can't find a link, if someone else can it's worth it to listen to). IIRC, they had an executive from the competing company being interviewed.
Basically, his complaint boiled down to the argument that it wasn't fair that the bus company had to comply with a bunch of expensive regulations, but that a carpooling service didn't.
"Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
Great one! I found one link to the translated petition: http://www.usm.maine.edu/~phillips/candle.html
Any life is made up of a single moment, the moment in which a man finds out, once and for all, who he is.
That is the joke of this whole thing...they would never be able to enforce this. PickupPal is just a convenient location to arrange rides. There are millions of message boards on the internet, how are they going to monitor EVERY message board on the internet for these types of car pooling groups??
According to the Ontario Highway Transporation Board decision [PDF], the bus company that brought the complaint is Trentway-Wagar, which is part of Coach Canada, which also includes Erie Coach Lines, Autocar Connaisseur, and Gray Line and a numbered company in Quebec (refer to the Wikipedia pages). Coach Canada is apparently an affiliate of Coach USA, and both are a part of the massive Stagecoach Group.
Perhaps where the OTSB and the legislation has failed, consumer choice can make a difference. I know I'll try to avoid them next time I'm travelling in Ontario.
This is a case of old regulations last updated over a decade ago being applied in an unexpected and silly, though legally consistent, manner.
There's already a bill in progress in the Ontario legislature to update this stuff, specifically, the changes to the public vehicle act about 2/3rds down the page.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
It sounds a bit like this story about Apple charging for the software to upgrade your wireless to 802.11n (purely a firmware/driver issue) because they thought Sarbanes Oxley required it.
In other words, it wasn't so much a legal issue as much as an accounting issue. People don't know how to deal with $0.00 items in accounting appearently.
The Ontario Ministry of Transportation, on its HOV lane page, promotes carpooling and links to SmartCommute.ca. This is an initiative of Metrolinx, an agency of the Government of Ontario. Metrolinx offers services to the "greater Toronto area". So the Ontario government is arranging carpooling across city limits, but forbidding another group from doing so.
This is the most media fueled common misconceptions, please stop using it. Apple did not charge because Sarbanes Oxley, they charged because of additional patent/royalty costs. 802.11n has more patents then 802.11g so it costs more to license. It the same with MPEG, H264 cost more the H263 which cost more the base mpeg4 to license. When they originally sold you a router they only licensed it for 802.11G, who would pay more if they don't have to? You essentially were paying Apple's additional IP costs.
That does make sense. Clearly you ahve no economic and/or financial experience.
There is no 'The Government' there are a series of agency and people and accountability.
Your ignorance makes you look foolish.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Wrong.
The landlord pays property tax and that cost is passed along to tenants as part of the rent.
Virginia is for lovers. EVE is for griefers.
You're posts our hard two reed when you don't use the write words where there supposed too go. "were", "their".
Personally, I'm confused as to how they came to these regulations. It's built on a faulty foundation that they could define carpooling as a very strict set of conditions- and then disallow any activity that didn't meet those conditions.
They're not disallowing anything. They're simply defining a carpool. Something that doesn't fit into that definition isn't disallowed, it's just not officially a carpool.
If I want to share a ride with a complete stranger and split the gas, how is that any different from sharing a ride with a family member?
You're more than welcome to do that. The problem here isn't sharing a ride with a stranger. The problem here is a business facilitating that sharing. The decision is basically saying that they are not facilitating carpooling, by the legal definition of carpooling, and that therefore what they are doing is facilitating transportation of passengers in public vehicles. The problem is that operators of public transportation vehicles must be licensed to operate a public vehicle, which these drivers are not.
It's my car and I'd much prefer to do with it what I'd please- I see absolutely no reason the government has any say in this!!
They don't. Carry on transporting whoever you want. Even call it a carpool if you want. No one cares. But don't try to operate a business facilitating public transportation without the appropriate licenses.
"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." -- Albert Einstein
There's nothing in either article mentioning unions even a single time regarding this story. You're a liar and a propagandist.
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
Historically there's been problems with this kind of car pooling service. A number of years ago a company (allo cars? or something) was doing the same type of service. Some of the drivers were using big old crappy vans with no seatbelts. That continued until one of the vans wiped out and the company was shutdown.
The point is it's a great idea to car pool and to coordinate that with others on a website. It's a bad idea for people looking to make a buck to co-opt the website and run unlicensed, uninsured and unsafe private taxi/bus service. That is what was happening here.
The rock, the vulture, and the chain
It's not direct. The renter only sees the check they pay. Not where it's going. Then when the landlord raises rent, they complain that they are greedy bastards.
Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
These people would really have a cow in Northern Virginia. Slugging, or waiting for strangers to pick you up to take you to work, has been going on here since the early 1970's!
Yes, it's odd, and you do exactly what your mother told you not to do: talk to strangers and get in their car. But there have been no serious crimes against "slugs" reported during the entire time.
It just feels strange the first time you do it, and it never completely feels right!
It's out there becaus that's what Apple said.
Specificly
Bullshit. Every rent-controlled lease/sublease I've looked at, was a lot cheaper than an uncontrolled apt. What am I missing here? Rent control can't possibly slow down new apt. development, since new apts are not rent controlled.
Note, I'm not saying that rent control is necessarily a good thing; I'm just saying that there doesn't seem to be evidence that it hurts me (a poor by NYC standards person looking for an apartment).
"They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
wrong. The "forcing" companies to make loans was only a few companies that were caught gaming the books. The feds choose to have them "help the poor" rather than levy appropriate fines. That said, they should have been harsh and shut down the FMs when they cooked the books years ago in spite of the harm because their cheating is what brought down the system. Mercy is what cause the banking crisis not regulations.
A standard "poor" FHA loan allows 7-9.5% interest when going rate for mortgages was 5.5%. Trouble was that they started "betting against" the sub par loans.. then they started loaning people with "good" credit vastly over extended sums to put them into loans rated for "poor" people (hence the zero down, interest only loans... hint "poor" don't get those... ever) Until they saturated that market. Realize they "bet against" those same people multiple times over (5-20 times the value of the amount borrowed!) They structured these "bets" like insurance, but just enough different to require zero regulation... until the market was saturated then when a small number couldn't pay the thing crashed.
In short, they took a punishment for not playing by the rules, pretended to do a "good thing", then continued to invent new ways to bend the rules on a massive scale while setting normal people up to fail.
MADE THAT INTO TOTAL GIBBERISH for you
Fixed that for you.
The best description of all this I've ever read is the preface to Models of Democracy, a textbook by David Held. Held is a left-wing Brit whose politics I do not agree with at *all*. But his explanation of what the American founders were *trying to do*, and why, (setting aside the question of how well they succeeded) is second to none. For your sake, I strongly recommend picking this up from your local library and just reading the preface. You will actually learn something.
- Alaska Jack
Actually, when Alberta sold of the ALCB, it was turning a profit. Thank you for playing.
This is the voice of World Control. I bring you Peace.
He's planning to close gitmo, for one.
My point was that the ALCB was not being subsidized by taxpayer dollars, as you seemed to be asserting:
It wasn't just paying for itself, but contributing back to the budget, hence benefiting taxpayers.
Thinking about it, there may have been efficiency gains in that they controlled the full distribution chain, meaning fewer middle men.
Heck, I could even be wrong on this one - a fellow Albertan notes further down the chain that he thinks overall liquor has become cheaper. I still firmly stand by my assertion that government run is not inherently inefficient, and I'm rather tired of it being taken as an absolute truth, like gravity.
This is the voice of World Control. I bring you Peace.
Licensed cabs are required to follow all sorts of rules regarding fares and what the passenger has a right to expect. If your licensed cab takes you for a joy ride and tries to rip you off on the fare you can take the driver's name (which must be prominently displayed) and complain. He's accountable. If a gypsy cab takes you for a ride you better just be grateful if he doesn't drop you off in the middle of nowhere and lets you keep your wallet.
This issue is almost already dead. It is OLD news, and there are changes to legislation going through the provincial(state) parliment to fix this problem.
The reason for these rules were to prevent UNLICENCED operators from running a bus or taxi service. Obviously the rules need to be changed, and they are.
It would have worked if the feds didn't bail out the idiots. They'd be out of business by now.
And they would've taken the rest of the US economy with them. Brilliant! Free market economics wins again!
Wait...
Often Canada's democracy works in theory and not in practice... except for the fact the government is elected.
The party whips in parliament (and provincial parliaments and legislatures) are way too strong. If a member of a political party doesn't vote the way the leaders of that party (federal or provincial) want, the party leader will almost always kick the member out of the party and they have to sit as an independent. So if your party wins the election and you are an elected representative, the prime minister (federal party leader of the party in power) or premier (provincial) will always tell you how to vote on every legislative vote, and you vote that way or you are marginalized as an independent (since you are now kicked out of the party). Independents by rule get virtually no chance to speak or express their views in the house, and independent candidates, even if formerly elected as part of a party, are rarely if ever elected as they won't have the ear of a party leader. So basically, they are lame duck after this happens. (BTW, the prime minister or premier of a province acts similarly to the majority leader of the house or senate, except they also get to form a government and lead the cabinet.) What ends up happening then when a party wins a majority (> 50%) of the seats, and which happens quite often, is that whatever laws the prime minister wants for the country, or a premier wants for their province, is passed. i.e. as long as they are in power, the prime minister or premiers have a virtual dictatorship. They can do what they want this side of causing an uprising. Prime Minster Mulroney in the 80's came pretty close to that when he passed the NAFTA legislation. Elections don't have to be called for 5 years btw.
The end result of this is that your locally elected representative never really represents you to parliament. They never fight for what is best for the constituents. They all kowtow to the leader (prime minister or premier). So in essence they represent parliament to their constituents; the exact opposite of what a good democracy will have. It sucks and needs to be fixed, but people who are vying to be prime minister will talk about change, but when they get a taste of power, they eat their words and nothing changes.
Sometimes, like right now, a minority government is elected. This means that sometimes the party forming the government will have to work with other parties. But if the minority is just shy of a majority, they can do pretty much what they want since they can slant the legislation in a way that matches what at least one of the other 3 parties elected would like and it will pass (they put enough sugar on it to get one of the others to help). Often the ruling party will throw another really stupid wrench we have up here into the mix to help them do this: The non-confidence vote. They can make any vote a 'non-confidence vote' (a budget vote is always a non-confidence vote for some stupid reason). If a vote on a bill is declared by the prime minister to be a non-confidence vote, and the government loses the vote, parliament is dissolved by the Governor General and a new election called. Since all parties vote in monolithic blocks according to how their leader wants each member of their party to vote (remember, members will be kicked out of their party if they don't), the party(s) that sinks the government is easy to identify. As people get sick of too many elections, the party that had formed the government can point at them as the culprits and get a boost at the polls from people pissed off at those who forced 'yet another election' too soon (elections aren't forced to happen on fixed dates). So this is a way to try to force other parties to pass legislation even if you have a minority. And another instance of legislators not representing their electorate. By and large, a minority government in Canada is as close as we get to a democracy, but it is to quote a phrase I heard somewhere, like putting lipstick on a pig.
Canadians by and large
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.