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Online Carpooling Service Fined In Canada

TechDirt is reporting on a disappointing development out of Canada. An Ontario transportation board has fined PickupPal, a Web-based service for arranging carpools, because a local bus company complained of the competition. (TechCrunch apparently first broke the story.) "[The transportation board has] established a bunch of draconian rules that any user in Ontario must follow if it uses the service — including no crossing of municipal boundaries — meaning the service is only good within any particular city's limits. It's better than being shut down completely, and the service can still operate elsewhere around the world, but this is yet another case where we see regulations, that are supposedly put in place to improve things for consumers, do the exact opposite."

11 of 541 comments (clear)

  1. Outdated laws are being changed by IPCanuck · · Score: 5, Informative

    There is a bill already before the Ontario Legislative Assembly to update the regulations to explicitly allow this practice. It is disappointing that the OTB didn't wait until the bill had passed before passing judgement, but at least we can hope the situation won't last long. The same bill would outlaw some common driver distractions, such as television screens and handheld cell phones.

    http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/bills/bills_detail.do?locale=en&BillID=2099

  2. Article Biased... by Atlantis-Rising · · Score: 5, Informative

    The article is heavily biased, although this isn't terribly surprising.

    Pickup Pal is a service that allows individuals to arrange not only carpools. Specifically, it allows drivers and passengers to arrange compensation for trips.

    Does this remind you of anything else? Oh, yes, a taxi company (or bus company, take your pick) which is Trentway-Wagar's complaint.

    The bus company, which TW is, as an organization that arranges for buses to transport passengers for money, is bound by a series of provincial vehicle travel laws which require its drivers to be insured, to possess the correct licenses for their vehicles, and so on.

    There are, in fact, specific exceptions in the specified Acts for car-pooling, but it appears that Pickup Pal does not satisfy them for various reasons (which should actually be quite obvious, prima facie).

    The difficulty is that Pickup Pal is obviously not merely offering a carpool service. They are also obviously not offering a public taxi service or a bus service, either, but the carpool service has a defined exception in the law.

    The law, the board argues, exists to protect riders. Drivers are to be insured, carry the proper licenses for their vehicles, and so on. (Insurance issues, which is a major public interest in cases such as these, form a major part of the Board's concern. Insuring a public vehicle is very different from insuring a private car and the caps on insurance are often much higher.)

    As a result, Pickup Pal was ordered to immediately cease taking any actions that would put them in violation of the Public Vehicles Act.

    Pickup Pal argues that they have nothing to do with the service, that they merely arrange this. The Board does not agree, for good reason- a taxicab company could make an identical argument. Such an argument is unpersuasive. There is a compelling public policy argument to regulating public vehicles and carriers and so on. For abiding by these regulations, Trentway-Wagar incurs costs, and they found it unfair that another provider would be able to avoid the regulations and thereby avoid the costs- hence the charge of unfair competition.

    The summary writes that the regulations are making things worse for the consumer. I beg to disagree. Unsafe public transportation is worse than expensive public transportation, and there is a compelling public policy reason for regulating public transportation for safety's sake- regulations that Pickup Pal did not abide by.

    --
    "It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
    1. Re:Article Biased... by Atlantis-Rising · · Score: 4, Informative

      The difference being that the taxicab/bus company itself makes money on each ride. PickupPal does not receive any money from the passenger or driver. Are they going to fine the phone company when I call my friend up and we arrange a road trip where he agrees to pay for half the gas? What about the message boards at colleges where drivers and passengers arrange for long trips back home? Sue the college?

      Actually, part of the information in evidence was that, in fact, up until fairly recently PickupPal did make a 7% commission.

      However, I'm not sure that's necessary in this case. PickupPal is still making money off of this service of connecting riders to drivers (which, I'll point out is what a taxicab service does). PickupPal just has a different way of collecting that money now (via advertisements).

      Between the driver and passenger, which is a private transaction that has nothing to do with PickupPal. It is not a transaction between the driver, passenger, and 'arranging' entity (taxicab company). Now, if you want to go after a driver because he is accepting money for a ride without having a taxi license, then go ahead. But going after PickupPal is just absurd.

      Not at all. PickupPal is an instrumental entity in this transaction. It acts like a broker. Just because the contract is between two parties doesn't mean PickupPal isn't in the business of arranging public transportation.

      I refer you to section 2(2) of the Public Vehicles Act, which is cited in the Board's decision:

      "No person shall arrange or offer to arrange the transportation of passengers by means of a public vehicle operated by another person unless that other person is the holder of an operating license authorizing that other person to perform transportation."

      --
      "It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
  3. This was on NPR a while back by langelgjm · · Score: 4, Informative

    I remember hearing about this story a few months ago on NPR (can't find a link, if someone else can it's worth it to listen to). IIRC, they had an executive from the competing company being interviewed.

    Basically, his complaint boiled down to the argument that it wasn't fair that the bus company had to comply with a bunch of expensive regulations, but that a carpooling service didn't.

    --
    "Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
    1. Re:This was on NPR a while back by C_L_Lk · · Score: 5, Informative

      For the record, I live in the same town ad the bus company that brought this all to a head (trentway-wager).

      They had a point in their initial concern, however the way the transportation board handled this was all wrong. There were van operators who were unlicenced and unregulated, who basically bought large 10-15 person vans, and were advertising on PickupPal for "intercity transportation" (e.g. rides to Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, etc.). They were abusing PickupPal to basically operate a Van and Taxi service. Unfortunately, instead of the transportation board finding out who those unlicenced operators were and cracking down and fining them, they decided to take their wrath out on the website and screw it up for everyone else who were following the "spirit" of the website.

    2. Re:This was on NPR a while back by smoker2 · · Score: 4, Informative

      So any old mass murderer can drive a taxi can they ? How about known paedophiles taking your kids to school ?
      Why are there so many pseudo 14 year olds on this site recently ?

      I would imagine that if you enquire into the issue and dig right back to the beginning of the regulation, you will find that the public demanded some oversight of these private companies. Now ill-educated fools who think they have the answer to life itself (because they are 14 years and nearly 6 months old) are complaining about things that "we, the people" asked for.
      If you're not 14 years old, start acting like it.

      Shut down the FAA, let the airlines self regulate. Shut down welfare, turn all the streets into a ghetto. Shut down medicare, let the disease spread. Shut down all these things because they cost me money. I don't see any benefit. Me me me me me !
      It really is the American disease. What gets me is the fact that you have no excuse for complaining. You actually have enough space to just say "fuck it" pack your shit together and live in the woods. But no, you'd rather run the country (badly) from your armchair while taking a large advantage from all the benefits bestowed by the things you want to get rid of. When you get that problem sorted out, you might find the politicians reflecting the people in a better light. Yes, you heard me. The reason Bush got in was because there are millions of people who think like he does. If you think that's good, I'm sorry for your descendants.

      I didn't mean to pick on Bush, he is in illustrious company. But let's face it, he is the poster boy for WTF ?

  4. Re:Okay I was wrong.. by keithpreston · · Score: 5, Informative

    This is the most media fueled common misconceptions, please stop using it. Apple did not charge because Sarbanes Oxley, they charged because of additional patent/royalty costs. 802.11n has more patents then 802.11g so it costs more to license. It the same with MPEG, H264 cost more the H263 which cost more the base mpeg4 to license. When they originally sold you a router they only licensed it for 802.11G, who would pay more if they don't have to? You essentially were paying Apple's additional IP costs.

  5. Re:No sense... by cthulu_mt · · Score: 5, Informative

    Wrong.

    The landlord pays property tax and that cost is passed along to tenants as part of the rent.

    --
    Virginia is for lovers. EVE is for griefers.
  6. Re:No sense... by Rary · · Score: 4, Informative

    Personally, I'm confused as to how they came to these regulations. It's built on a faulty foundation that they could define carpooling as a very strict set of conditions- and then disallow any activity that didn't meet those conditions.

    They're not disallowing anything. They're simply defining a carpool. Something that doesn't fit into that definition isn't disallowed, it's just not officially a carpool.

    If I want to share a ride with a complete stranger and split the gas, how is that any different from sharing a ride with a family member?

    You're more than welcome to do that. The problem here isn't sharing a ride with a stranger. The problem here is a business facilitating that sharing. The decision is basically saying that they are not facilitating carpooling, by the legal definition of carpooling, and that therefore what they are doing is facilitating transportation of passengers in public vehicles. The problem is that operators of public transportation vehicles must be licensed to operate a public vehicle, which these drivers are not.

    It's my car and I'd much prefer to do with it what I'd please- I see absolutely no reason the government has any say in this!!

    They don't. Carry on transporting whoever you want. Even call it a carpool if you want. No one cares. But don't try to operate a business facilitating public transportation without the appropriate licenses.

    --

    "You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." -- Albert Einstein

  7. Re:No sense... by eddy+the+lip · · Score: 4, Informative

    My point was that the ALCB was not being subsidized by taxpayer dollars, as you seemed to be asserting:

    This is breathtakingly naive. *You are paying* for the availability and the relative "cheapness" of the government-subsidized liquor store ... and so is everyone else, *even those who don't drink*

    It wasn't just paying for itself, but contributing back to the budget, hence benefiting taxpayers.

    Thinking about it, there may have been efficiency gains in that they controlled the full distribution chain, meaning fewer middle men.

    Heck, I could even be wrong on this one - a fellow Albertan notes further down the chain that he thinks overall liquor has become cheaper. I still firmly stand by my assertion that government run is not inherently inefficient, and I'm rather tired of it being taken as an absolute truth, like gravity.

    --

    This is the voice of World Control. I bring you Peace.

  8. It SEEMS like it does not make sense by John+Jamieson · · Score: 4, Informative

    This issue is almost already dead. It is OLD news, and there are changes to legislation going through the provincial(state) parliment to fix this problem.

    The reason for these rules were to prevent UNLICENCED operators from running a bus or taxi service. Obviously the rules need to be changed, and they are.