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New Details On Halo Wars
As Halo Wars gets closer to its February release, details are gradually emerging about the game. In an interview with CVG, lead designer Graeme Devine claimed that the controls are actually better than those of a PC RTS, and said the downloadable content for the game is mostly done already, but will be held back until well after the release. Giant Bomb got some hands-on time with the game, and said the controls the controls "do work well enough, even if they're geared more toward broad tactical strokes than intensive small-group micromanagement." Kotaku has further details about the game as well. A video showing some of the gameplay is also available. Ensemble Studios has explicitly denied the possibility of a PC port.
I'll believe it when i see it. Its not often 70keys and a mouse can be replaces by a few buttons and knobs
Sweet! I was looking for more reasons not to pay $60 for a game if they're just going to charge us more later to play for parts of it they already completed now. This will be a rental, and if I decide to get it it will be a used copy off Gamefly.
yeah, it's absolute lunacy. It's physically impossible for slower input methods to beat faster ones no matter what the setup. And in my experience no RTS console game has ever been remotely good at all (if you're used to PC ones). Unless you max your population at 12 people and can zoom down into their point of view and start Halo FPS-ing it up AND level up individuals in your army like an RPG I don't think it will go over well. Actually that'd make a sweet game if they did that.
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> And in my experience no RTS console game has ever been remotely good at all (if you're used to PC ones).
Because of the different input methods all console RTS's are dumbed down. It's just freaking impossible to get all the detail you can see with a computer monitor and still pander to the people who play xbox on their standard def TVs (1. Who the hell plays HD consoles on regular TVs? 2.Games are still built so menus work in standard def - WHAT?!!?!)
Personally I think this is more to do with the mouse than number of buttons on the keyboard, a analogue stick is never going to have quite the same accuracy and speed (hell if they did computers would come with one rather than a mouse).
I think that it's theoretically possible that a RTS could be implemented on a console. Apart from the D-pad and thumb sticks, there are 10 buttons that can be used for hot-keying. Ten factorial is a big number. Getting those combos right would take some real solid dedication - but possible.
When you watch the South Korean's and their StarCraft comps, the competitors are not really using the mouse anyway. The mouse being the only real advantage PC RTSs have.
I'm holding out. Not for Halo Wars in particular but for a RTS for consoles. Battle for Middle Earth II was not too bad; no where near perfect, but playable. Hopefully, I'll try out RAIII soon.
I'll staying positive.
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> the downloadable content for the game is mostly done already
Then include it in the retail release.
Greedy wankers.
I played C+C on a PC several years ago and the controls for the keyboard were not that detailed [see], especially not enough to warrant all the rubbish above going on about how a controller can't replace a keyboard/mouse.
Though I only played the demo, End of War is fully usable just through voice controls. Considering it was a demo I was very impressed with how well it worked like this... no keyboard.. no mouse.. just me shouting "UNIT .. A.. ATTACK.. ALPHA.." and so on. (it's early I may of shouted a lot of things).
I don't see why a combination of 2 sticks, a D pad, 10 buttons, and a headset can't replace a few keyboard functions and being able to drag-select units using a mouse.
You're the same people who believed trains shouldn't travel over 10mph for fear of demons invading their souls.
To be honest I played through C&C3 on the PC and the 360, console controls for RTS' really aren't that bad.
It's the same with FPS really, I never used to be a console gamer but a lot of the mouse and keyboard snobbery is rather unfounded when it comes to.
Probably the only type of game I wouldn't want to play on a console is an MMO and that's because of communication, I don't know how you'd handle voice chat in busy areas with hundreds of people talking at once without a keyboard.
Getting used to console controls for RTS, FPS and RPG games is really no different than initially getting used to them on a PC, it's just that most people here were brought up with playing them on PCs and don't like the idea of change.
Sure some games that are poor ports from PC to console and haven't had their control schemes thought through on the console kinda suck but for the major releases where time is spent on these things there's nothing about console control schemes that detract from the fun of the game or your ability to play it and compete.
I have a long history of PC gaming and spent many years playing Quake DM and TF to a pretty high level. I've bought various consoles because of a couple of eye catching games and I like the instant-playability factor of consoles without the hassle for having to upgrade, fiddle with drivers and so on but it didn't take long for me to realise that even FPS and RTS were perfectly playable and good fun on consoles. Certainly on games like Shadowrun for example there was no disparity between PC gamers with a mouse and console gamers with a pad because the control schemes for each had been thought through.
Good to know they cease and desisted Halogen and then didn't even work on a PC port!
I live and breath for RTS games...at the point where you're going to stick it on a console, you lost me. You can spout bull**** all day long about how an X-Box controller is better than a mouse + 70 keys on my keyboard, but I don't buy it, and I don't believe anyone else would either. And when you're going to boldly announce for your game "Halo Wars" that you've developed a bunch of content that you're not going to release with the game, and hold off on releasing it until later? That's some serious anti-consumer behavior. That's half the reason Spore flopped (DRM being the other half). EA released a half-done game, and kept all the things *NEEDED* to make the game decent out of the release so that they could sell it as "expansions." Great model that they're following on this one. I hope it flops just as badly. Lets see...releasing an RTS for a console (traditional fail) by hyping up how much better it will be than any PC RTS control system (asking for a let down here) and promising potential customers that not only are you going to not let them use it on the system and controller (Mouse+keyboard) that is most sought after to play RTS games on, but that you're ALSO not going to give your customers half the content you made for the game...instead you're going to hold it in reserve and ask them for more money later on. Brilliant business plan! I look forward to saying "I told you so."
Around here there is no HD broadcasting, and HD TVs are very expensive. I recently paid $1,400 for a 37" Sharp Aquos.
So almost all console gaming is on regular TVs. There are a lot of countries like that.
I remember guys ranting about how good C&C 3 for XBox 360 was on the controls. The only way I got halfway through the GDI campaign was by playing it on easy. I emphasize halfway because once I got to a point where I had to defend a base that was being attacked on at least two sides every time that Nod attacked, I couldn't accurately move my troops and assign repair orders to the base defenses.
Seriously, why can't Microsoft just release an update that enables keyboard and mouse support. There is absolutely no good reason why two sets of controls cannot be supported.
Most major 360 games are being forced to put large amounts of content into download form due to the ridiculous 7 gigabyte disc format the 360 is stuck with.
It is absolutely absurd the 360 actually has about 1.5 gigs LESS storage than the PS2 and Xbox did last gen.
The 1.5 gigs per DVD was supposed to be security stuff of some sort. So much for that plan looking at the insanely easy 360 pirating.
"Sure some games that are poor ports from PC to console and haven't had their control schemes thought through on the console kinda suck but for the major releases where time is spent on these things there's nothing about console control schemes that detract from the fun of the game or your ability to play it and compete."
In my experience, if the game controls were well thought out for the console, they detracted from the PC gameplay. If they were well thought out on the PC, they are flat out wretched on a console. If developers want to make us wait a year or more after a games console release to release the PC version, they should consider redesigning the control scheme as if the game was PC only. They could get double sales from people who don't want to wait a year or more for the game, but also enjoy the added benefit of more precise controls. As far as competing goes, if everyone is subject to the same control scheme (good or bad), then everyone is equally capable of competing.
"Getting used to console controls for RTS, FPS and RPG games is really no different than initially getting used to them on a PC, it's just that most people here were brought up with playing them on PCs and don't like the idea of change."
Actually, most people I know, were brought up playing action/adventure/RPG games on the console. I didn't get into RTSs and FPSs until C&C and DOOM II. I first played C&C, C&C Red Alert, and Doom II on consoles. I, and many people I know, started moving towards the PC when PC games started implementing proper mouse support. Thus, I've already gone through change with my controls, and found the added control and precision to be worth the move. The real problem is that the change you speak of involves the loss of control and precision that comes with simplified controllers.
Some games don't need as much control to enjoy to the fullest. Most RPGs I've played fall into this category. I've played Knights of the Old Republic on console and PC and found them equally enjoyable. In fact, when I played it on the PC, I found I enjoyed it more playing it through the TV an using my cordless gamepad while lounging on my couch.
Some games still good with simpler controls, but are better with more complex or precise controls (depending on user). I've seen people you only use general tactics in RTS games who don't think the simpler controls are a problem. However, people who like to micromanage and/or pull off complicated maneuvers that require precise timing to achieve their full effect find simpler control really hold them back.
Finally, some games genres simply hold no comparison. I actually have a cousin who refuses to play an FPS with a mouse and keyboard. He gave much the same rhetoric as you are giving. So, in order to include him in the computer festivities over the holidays, I setup a PC with Halo and a game pad (same as above). I let him get used to the controls for a few days, though he said there really wasn't much of a difference. When we had our LAN party, he was the one always getting toasted. In fact, he thought we were cheating because he does very well online with his console.
Limiting everyone to simpler controls isn't really any different than any other hindrance or rules imposed (whether by design or not) as long as everyone is subject to it. However, that doesn't make it the equal of more complex controls or precise controls. The case with my cousin is just one of many I can reference that make this point very clear.
This doesn't mean that console gamers are inferior, just the controls. You could argue that console gamers have to be very good to deal with the precision handicap. I compare it to with $10000 instead of $40000 in Tiberium Wars (or constantly playing maps with low funds). Like self imposed handicaps (monetary or otherwise), the less precise controls can make things more fun for some people. But again, that doesn't make them equal.
On the other hand, I've seen control schemes that are overly complicated and give no real benefit once learned. There is a limit to what 10 fingers and muscle memory can do in the span of reflex time.
Or at least, I hope it will.
I've been playing RTS's off and on since C&C and Warcraft (the original), and I've always had a love/hate relationship with them. I love the strategy and tactics of the genre, but the whole concept of "micro" and continuously abysmal unit AI just infuriates me.
For instance, in the dominant RTS paradigm, if I have a group of units standing in a group in my base, I get two choices: leave them in "free acting" mode, where if they're attacked by some plinker my opponent sends, they'll rush headlong into whatever danger lurks outside the base, outside the range of my fortifications; or they can stand there in "hold" mode, and get picked off impassively by ranged enemy units as their mates stand around watching them bleed.
Why can't I tell them to automatically scatter and get behind fortifications to fight back? Or maybe retreat to draw the enemy into range of my big, immobile guns/cannons/wizards/what have you?
Since micro is so much harder on a console than a PC, my hope is that console RTS developers will address some of these issues, to reduce the frustration of unit management.
Get any widescreen monitor $100 or over, a VGA cable, and a few dollars worth of sound converters and you have a 720p output for your Xbox 360 along with a standard 3.5mm stereo plug for sound. You could get everything you need for around $115.
Who the hell plays HD consoles on regular TVs?
That would be me. Not everyone has extra money for a new tele.
Its not often 70keys and a mouse can be replaces by a few buttons and knobs
True, but there have been some games that also destory they myth if the UI design is well thought out. Specifically I would refer to KOTOR as one of the ground breakers of making a complex game and UI feel more natural with a XBox controller than a keyboard and mouse.
I would like to see more console games support and require the keyboard add-ons (like XBox Messenger Keyboard), and instead of re-inventing the wheel between platforms, use the best of both.
2.Games are still built so menus work in standard def
From my limited experience with my Xbox 360 so far I'm pretty sure they aren't, those things are fucking unusable (speaking mostly abouzt a select few demos, the system UI works).
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
I think your definition of RTS is just too inflexible. If you consider a standard PC RTS, sure, porting that 1:1 is going to be hard but Halo Wars was designed for the console right from the start and they seem to have changed many basic RTS conventions so it's an RTS but not of the type you see on the PC.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
an rts, THE game to be played on a pc, is NOT going to get a pc port. usually it's not getting a console port - simply because it sucks to control the game with a controller.
EndWar is controlled via voice recognition, and for the most part it works pretty well. Plus it's fun to shout orders at your units.
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