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Microsoft Researchers Study "Cyberchondria"

Slatterz introduces us to the first major study on "cyberchondria" by Microsoft researchers (abstract, paper [PDF]). The news that it can be a bad idea to search the Internet to see if you have a terrible disease should come as no surprise. According to the NYTimes article, the syndrome has been known as "cyberchondria" since at least the year 2000 (we discussed it a few years back). It refers to increased anxiety brought on when people with little or no medical training go searching for answers to common medical complaints on the Web. The article compares cyberchondria with a phenomenon well known among second-year medical students, called "medical schoolitis." The researchers note that Web searchers' propensity to jump to awful conclusions is "basic human behavior that has been noted by research scientists for decades."

144 comments

  1. Even worse... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Cyberchondria Wikia - A variant of Cyberchondria in which symptoms, causes and diseases change at random when suggested by other users

    1. Re:Even worse... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Oh," I said. "The medicine, yes, it's right here". I reached into the kit-bag for the amyls. The kid seemed petrified. "Don't worry," I said. "This man has a bad heart - Angina Pectoris. But we have the cure for it. Yes here they are."

    2. Re:Even worse... by Wandering+Wombat · · Score: 1

      You can't post here! This is bat country.

      --
      I like to place meaningful quotes in my sig, so people will know that I know what meaningful quotes are.
    3. Re:Even worse... by philspear · · Score: 1

      Oh god! I think I have that [citation needed].

    4. Re:Even worse... by richlv · · Score: 2, Informative

      the citation of new memes shocks me slightly only because old ones are lost too easily.
      i mean, i don't have housemaid's knee !!!!!!!!!!11111~~~~

      for the uninitiated :

      I remember going to the British Museum one day to read up the treatment for some slight ailment of which I had a touch - hay fever, I fancy it was. I got down the book, and read all I came to read; and then, in an unthinking moment, I idly turned the leaves, and began to indolently study diseases, generally. I forget which was the first distemper I plunged into - some fearful, devastating scourge, I know - and, before I had glanced half down the list of "premonitory symptoms," it was borne in upon me that I had fairly got it.

      I sat for awhile, frozen with horror; and then, in the listlessness of despair, I again turned over the pages. I came to typhoid fever - read the symptoms - discovered that I had typhoid fever, must have had it for months without knowing it - wondered what else I had got; turned up St. Vitus's Dance - found, as I expected, that I had that too, - began to get interested in my case, and determined to sift it to the bottom, and so started alphabetically - read up ague, and learnt that I was sickening for it, and that the acute stage would commence in about another fortnight. Bright's disease, I was relieved to find, I had only in a modified form, and, so far as that was concerned, I might live for years. Cholera I had, with severe complications; and diphtheria I seemed to have been born with. I plodded conscientiously through the twenty-six letters, and the only malady I could conclude I had not got was housemaid's knee.

      I felt rather hurt about this at first; it seemed somehow to be a sort of slight. Why hadn't I got housemaid's knee? Why this invidious reservation? After a while, however, less grasping feelings prevailed. I reflected that I had every other known malady in the pharmacology, and I grew less selfish, and determined to do without housemaid's knee. Gout, in its most malignant stage, it would appear, had seized me without my being aware of it; and zymosis I had evidently been suffering with from boyhood. There were no more diseases after zymosis, so I concluded there was nothing else the matter with me.

      I sat and pondered. I thought what an interesting case I must be from a medical point of view, what an acquisition I should be to a class! Students would have no need to "walk the hospitals," if they had me. I was a hospital in myself. All they need do would be to walk round me, and, after that, take their diploma.

      all hail Jerome K. Jerome.
      * if there really is somebody who has not read this book, do that tomorrow. citation from http://www.classicbookshelf.com/library/jerome_k_jerome/three_men_in_a_boat/0/

      --
      Rich
  2. Same rules apply... by Z80xxc! · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The problem might not be the use of the internet for information, so much as how people are going about getting and using that information. Just like one wouldn't trust some random person off the street or even some unknown doctor-like person in a white coat walking down the hall at the hospital, one can't blindly trust information on the internet. Getting a second opinion, (and a third, and a fourth) might help people to get a better idea of what's truly happening. They should still talk to a doctor, rather than relying solely on their internet diagnosis, but they might be able to at least get a general idea of what might be wrong. Using medical information on the web as one's only source is irresponsible; it should be common sense to get a balanced opinion and also to see a real medical professional.

    1. Re:Same rules apply... by westlake · · Score: 2, Informative
      The problem might not be the use of the internet for information, so much as how people are going about getting and using that information.

      The Microsoft research paper addresses this directly by comparing and contrasting how users responded to searches through MSN and MSN Health and Fitness, which searches a limited number of trusted sources for public health information. As you would expect, sites which are carefully vetted and never needlessly provocative or alarmist calm most fears.

    2. Re:Same rules apply... by zolltron · · Score: 1

      The problem isn't so much that the information isn't reliable, just that important parts are left out or not considered by the individual. For instance, the base rates of many diseases tell you a lot about what your likely to have given a particular set of symptoms. Most websites don't give you that information, or when they do individuals ignore it. As a result, they tend to believe that they have a terrible disease based on true but incomplete information.

    3. Re:Same rules apply... by Onymous+Coward · · Score: 1

      Using medical information on the web as one's only source is irresponsible; it should be common sense to get a balanced opinion and also to see a real medical professional.

      How does one go about seeking a balanced opinion? By going to other laymen? You must mean by seeking the advice of a trained and certified medical professional period, not "also".

      But not everyone has that option. Even if you do, not everyone has health care.

      We should be glad for the availability of information online (and in libraries).

    4. Re:Same rules apply... by jnicole4 · · Score: 1

      I absolutely agree. The internet is a great source of information, but it should be used in this case as a guide, not a definitive diagnosis. The best use for this may be to allow the patient to come up with questions they should ask their doctor. If it's wise to get second and third opinions from actual doctors, the same rule should apply for the internet.

  3. I have... by Jizzbug · · Score: 0

    Deuteranopia, Pectus excavatum, and Autosarcophagy.

    --

    -=/\- Jizzbug -/\=-
  4. hm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    I've been mis-diagnosed by doctors and found the problem successfully myself (and then had doctors treat). One time it involved cancer, but I can think of at least 2 other times. Not that I'm smarter than doctors or anything like that, but sometimes it does help to study things yourself.

    1. Re:hm by rhyder128k · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This was the first thing that leapt to my mind as well.

      Basic scenario: Patient is able to spend six or seven hours carefully searching message boards and the web for something exactly matches their symptoms. In all fairness, patients aren't always brilliant at specifying their symptoms clearly and exhaustively. Next day, patient goes to see doctor and points out something that the doctor has missed. Doctor thinks, "Who the hell does this guy think he is? I'm God!". Patient gets a telling off for causing a nasty case of cognitive dissonance in the mind of the doctor.

      I think that things are perhaps worse in the UK as we have a state healthcare system. As a result, Doctors don't always treat patients with the same respect that they would a paying customer. I've had some private dental care, and the attitude was like night and day. In contrast, a doctor once told me off for having read the the little leaflet that came inside a packet of pills.

      --
      Michael Reed, freelance tech writer.
    2. Re:hm by snaildarter · · Score: 1

      Amen. American hospitals drive their doctors to get as many patients in and out the door as quickly as possible. Hospitals then try their hardest to stop competition from other hospitals by hiding numbers like infection rates and how successfully they treat various diseases.

      It's a broken market, whereby patients (customers) cannot judge hospitals or doctors. Few decision metrics are available. This is libertarianism at its worst. I'm pro competition, and in this case, it means we need to mandate the availability of more metrics. One should have the freedom to pay more for a doctor/hospital with a good track record on the metrics that matter most to you (say, a doctor that actually takes the time to get the diagnosis right), and less for those that don't.

      --
      Japanese scientist: Technically, sir, tomatoes are fags. Military scientist: He means fruits.
    3. Re:hm by moosesocks · · Score: 1

      The differences between a state-run and HMO-sponsored healthcare system aren't terribly different, apart from the massive administrative overhead associated with the HMO-based system.

      I've been through both types of systems, and doctors tend to have varying levels of indifference in both types of system.

      People love to complain about the NHS, though at the end of the day, the statistics seem to show that they're doing a pretty good job.

      (Dental care, IMO, on the other hand, is a completely different game, for whatever reason.)

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    4. Re:hm by cheater512 · · Score: 1

      Possibly because you pay dentists somewhat more?

    5. Re:hm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I call your anecdote.

      State doctor, excellent, she found something of which I was completely unaware. Private dentist, excruciating pain for a weekend after some simple work on the Friday.

    6. Re:hm by Elledan · · Score: 1

      I've been misdiagnosed a few times by now as well for the condition I'm suffering from. My own research made me believe I knew in which direction to search, but with no apparent interest from doctors to diagnose me while also running into more practical concerns (no surgeon is going to cut open a healthy patient...). If I am to believe the last doctor I talked with then I'm not even sure how to diagnose myself, nor did she have a clue. I'm still waiting for her to get back to me on it with something useful.

      My own research has come to a stop as I don't know what else to look at any more. I really wish I could find out more, though :(

      My site is www.MayaPosch.com for those who want to know more.

      --
      Site & blog: http://www.mayaposch.com
  5. Hmm, hypochondriac... by DeadManCoding · · Score: 1

    OK, so now we have a word that is the same as another, with a slightly different definition. Instead of people freaking out about imagined illnesses, now they have the ability to get online and find other illnesses that they didn't realize they had... Fantastic. Irritating doesn't even begin to describe my feeling about this one.

    --
    "The only constant in the universe is change." - Unknown author
    1. Re:Hmm, hypochondriac... by Elektroschock · · Score: 1

      What about Comfrey?

      Can you eat Comfrey pancake or shouldn't you?

    2. Re:Hmm, hypochondriac... by vux984 · · Score: 1

      Irritating doesn't even begin to describe my feeling about this one.

      Don't worry, they have a cream for that... look for it online. ;)

    3. Re:Hmm, hypochondriac... by mrbcs · · Score: 1

      Comfrey? How do you kill that shit? I have it growing everywhere!!!!

      --
      I'm not anti-social, I'm anti-idiot.
    4. Re:Hmm, hypochondriac... by Elektroschock · · Score: 1

      Yes, you cannot get rid off Comfrey. But some people including me find it very delicious.

      Some web sources say Comfrey is dangerous for your liver. And I don't know if it is the pharma mafia or real.

      You take comfrey leaves and make a kind of pankake and roast them. It is delicious but I have no idea if I should do. Without the web I would have continued.

    5. Re:Hmm, hypochondriac... by mrbcs · · Score: 1

      Thanks! Ya it seems to have many uses... some entertaining. It took me about 2 years to find out what it was. I had tons growing under a plum tree.

      --
      I'm not anti-social, I'm anti-idiot.
  6. Oh No... by routerl · · Score: 5, Funny

    This means I've just found another condition I might have by browsing the internet! Damn you cyberchondria!

    --
    Trust me, kids; don't drink and post.
  7. I would disagree by TubeSteak · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The researchers note that Web searchers' propensity to jump to awful conclusions is "basic human behavior that has been noted by research scientists for decades."

    In my anecdotal and limited experience, I've noticed that it is certain personality types which have a "propensity to jump to awful conclusions".

    They basically resort to hysterics over things they cannot control, even before they know how [thing] is going to end.

    --
    [Fuck Beta]
    o0t!
    1. Re:I would disagree by El+Puerco+Loco · · Score: 1

      well, it always ends the same way, doesn't it? sooner or later, they're bound to be right.

    2. Re:I would disagree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've met my wife?

  8. How often are they right, though? by cptnapalm · · Score: 1

    Several years ago, I noticed something about a patch of skin. I looked it up and asked the dermatologist about it. He, of course, ignored me and the question.

    Three diagnoses, two prescriptions and 7 office visits later, he consulted with several doctors around the country.

    I had been right from the get go, though he would never admit it.

    1. Re:How often are they right, though? by Crias · · Score: 1
      Dude, RTFA.

      Paragraph 1:

      If that headache plaguing you this morning led you first to a Web search and then to the conclusion that you must have a brain tumor, you may instead be suffering from cyberchondria.

      Cyberchondria is when you search the net for your symptoms and suddenly start panicking because you think you might have something bad.

      This suggests the opposite of your post - you should consult medical professionals.

      Dermatology is a completely different beast, because many skin conditions have no real tests. The creed of dermatology is "if the area is moist, make it dry, and if it's dry, make it moist". I've had a problem for 2 years now undiagnosed. *shrugs*

  9. Conclusion... by rodrigoandrade · · Score: 4, Funny

    I haven't RTFA, per usual, but I'm sure the study concludes that it's a great idea to search the Internet to see if you have a terrible disease using Windows Live Search.

    1. Re:Conclusion... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From the -summary- of all things:

      The news that it can be a bad idea to search the Internet to see if you have a terrible disease should come as no surprise.

      If you're not going to RTFA at least RTFS. Clearly Cyberchondria is relating to when you think you have something wrong with you, you search the web, find relating symptoms, and go "OH CRAP! I'm dying!"

      It suggests that perhaps you should consult a medical professional instead of Google.

    2. Re:Conclusion... by westlake · · Score: 3, Interesting
      I'm sure the study concludes that it's a great idea to search the Internet to see if you have a terrible disease using Windows Live Search.

      What the study actually found, of course, is that you are far better off using a search engine that links only to known-good sources for public health information.

      The AMA. The American Cancer Society. The Center for Disease Control.

      The geek shouldn't shrug off studies like these because they expose a serious problem with a general search engine like Google - and a search service that has perhaps become too much a marketing machine.

    3. Re:Conclusion... by girlintraining · · Score: 2, Funny

      I haven't RTFA, per usual, but I'm sure the study concludes that it's a great idea to search the Internet to see if you have a terrible disease using Windows Live Search.

      Hello there! I see you're looking for information on WHY DOES IT BURN WHEN I PEE?

      Would you like to:
      ( ) Schedule a visit to Planned Parenthood
      ( ) Swear you'll use a condom from now on
      ( ) Order some monostat
      ( ) Call mom while crying on the toilet.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    4. Re:Conclusion... by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      Provided you put "site:nhs.uk" or something similar at the end of your search query.

      You can do this in Google as well.

    5. Re:Conclusion... by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      Of course using Windows Live Search is a terrible disease. Duh.

    6. Re:Conclusion... by Arancaytar · · Score: 1

      [abusing an oft-quoted joke]

      Some people, having a terrible disease, say: "I know! I'll look it up using Live Search!"

      Now they have two terrible diseases.

  10. Thats why we built MEDgle by ashdamle · · Score: 5, Interesting

    We (myself and a couple of doctors) started MEDgle (http://www.medgle.com/ ) specifically to help people understand the possible causes for their symptoms. Hopefully this will help combat cyberchondria by giving people reasonable causes, not the most dire. And as you stated, people should always talk with their health care provider. Any feedback is much appreciated. Cheers

    1. Re:Thats why we built MEDgle by St.+Alfonzo · · Score: 1

      What's with the forced login for "more/uncommon symptoms"? Clearly you 'doctors' are trying to experiment on me!

    2. Re:Thats why we built MEDgle by girlintraining · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I seem to recall sometime in about 2000 there was a report that a computer program had been designed that asked a series of questions and provided a most likely diagnosis. It was apparently better at doing this than the doctors were by a small margin. The project was axed though after a huge outcry that it would put doctors out of business, couldn't be trusted because it couldn't be medically licensed, liability issues, etc. Has anything changed since then?

      It seems like a good idea -- people punching in their symptoms and getting an answer about whether to take a trip to the ER (perhaps printout in hand) or not, and with people spending hours in waiting rooms only to find out they have the common cold or just bad menstral cramps, doesn't it make sense to give people the option of entering all their data into a computer first? If we tied such a database into the admissions system, they could show up with all their insurance, contact information, and symptoms list already available for the triage nurse. I'm not advocating taking a person and their clinical experience out of the loop, but certainly there's ways to use medical data to do better targeting. I've felt the same way about pharmaceuticals and wondered why there isn't a database to track adverse reactions to drugs on a per-patient basis... If someone's tried three different anti-depressants and had a poor response to them, maybe that particular reaction projects that Drug X would be 60% more likely to be effective than Drug Y. As it is, it's often drug rhoulette(sp?) until you find one that works.

       

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    3. Re:Thats why we built MEDgle by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Okay...feedback: I already hate the fact that I have to log in to select more than one symptom. This is going to turn off a lot of people who are embarrassed over whatever condition.

      I do like the organ chart -- clever and unique.

      I was amused to see this ad copy below the organ chart

      Facebook Borne Disease

      Wow, so you CAN catch diseases thru social networking! ;)

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    4. Re:Thats why we built MEDgle by Twinbee · · Score: 1

      Great stuff. I thought of this kind of thing a while back, but it's brilliant to see people putting this thing into practise, especially with this level of automation.

      --
      Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
    5. Re:Thats why we built MEDgle by snl2587 · · Score: 1

      feedback: I already hate the fact that I have to log in to select more than one symptom.

      Didn't seem to be a problem for me, although I did notice that less common symptoms did require a logon. Not sure why, though.

      I did notice that this was considerably better than WebMD at identifying that the symptoms for my recent stomach flu were not, in fact, indicative of cancer, but I still wish someone could make a program that described symptoms as a patient would describe them without printing out a list of preposterous diagnoses in the process.

    6. Re:Thats why we built MEDgle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, I basically avoid sites with compulsory registration as much as reasonably possible.

    7. Re:Thats why we built MEDgle by xTantrum · · Score: 1

      I don't see any problem with individuals searching for answers for possible ailments and illnesses, as long as they employ critical thinking and don't jump to conclusions without facts. I often use the web to find info about what could be wrong with me and then on seeing a doctor usually surprise him/her with the little knowledge that i gained by individual research. Obviously the buck still stops at the doctors but informing myself helps me to make a better decision and not just swallow what the doctor says, because contrary to popular belief just cause they memorized a bunch of stuff doesn't make them intelligent.

      I've had two episodes now where it helped to be informed before going to the doctors. the most recent: for severeal weeks i was house bound and just all around freaking out because i was getting this tightness in my chest, and it was hard to breath at times. It litterally felt like i was having a heart attack but the symptoms were sporadic. Eventually it got to the point where i was awake one night and felt like i was about to die. couldn't breathe, a vice grip around my chest etc. so my girl called the ambulance. went to the hospital, stayed there for 5 hours, they ran tests on tests, couldn't figure it out. gave me a clean bill of health and sent me home. Unfourtantely for me there is always something on the other side of the equation, so i researched online and turns out i had tietze syndrome ask me if i didn't email this to the doctor who took care of me? ask me if she wasn't grateful and probably red faced. the former yes, the latter i don't know.

      the point is: the internet is a tool and can be useful if used wisely. if you just believe everything you read on it and don't question you're just about as dumb as excepting what political figures say without critical thinking. Which of course is the problem.

      --
      $action = empty(PHP) ? backToC() : unset(PHP) ; "when the concrete cases are understood, the abstractions are readily
    8. Re:Thats why we built MEDgle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a doctor too. Are you not afraid of downplaying certain symptoms? You know, for example, epigastric discomfort could be an AMI or the beginning of aortic dissection, but could also be indigestion. From my experience, in seeing an average of 50 patients per day for 8-9 years, I've learned that automated programs like FreeMD can only be useful for textbook cases but the problem is that diseases often don't read medical textbooks. Anyway, I'd be worried about an automated program or website which alleviated patient's fears,
      an experienced clinician should be the one to decide whether a seemingly innocuous symptom is worth investigating or not. I'm sure you've thought of this and have compensated for it. Thanks.

    9. Re:Thats why we built MEDgle by Keychain · · Score: 1

      Main problem here (and with the OP initiative) is that most people (me included) won't be able to exactly point out their symptoms clearly enough for a machine to be able to diagnoses their illness correctly

    10. Re:Thats why we built MEDgle by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Sounds like you're thinking of Larry Weed's Problem-Knowledge couplers. These have been around for literally decades - they were the next big thing when I was in medical school (early 80's). Apparently it hasn't died yet, but every time I look at them, I find that they are 1) slow 2) SLOW 3) tend to look for unusual / uncommon diseases and 4) not any better than hitting a textbook (or these days Google).

      The problem with computers sorting on symptoms is that symptoms are common, symptoms overlap diseases and there are a lot of unconscious filters that medical professionals use to get the diagnosis in the ball park that have yet to be fully rationalized. They could be useful as an adjunct to jog your memory or in a training, but they aren't going to replace anyone.

      IMHO, the biggest problem with these sorts of programs is that humans aren't rational and aren't strictly deterministic. Applying a strictly rational, deterministic approach to "fixing" people only goes so far.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    11. Re:Thats why we built MEDgle by ashdamle · · Score: 1

      Reziac... thanks for the feedback. You can enter up to 4 symptoms (no-login required), you just need to enter the first one to get the second box to appear. (Any suggestions to make this clearer?) Glad the visual search was interesting... The game basically presents lots of different scenarios allowing people to test their medical diagnostic skills. :)

    12. Re:Thats why we built MEDgle by ashdamle · · Score: 1

      snl2587, thanks for the feedback as well.

      All the symptoms are available through textbox with auto-complete. We restricted the symptoms shown in the visual section because "some" folks where just coping and using it elsewhere. It was the only solution we could come up with to stop mass copying of the difficult to find data that we have put together.

      Any ideas on how we can protect our IP without requiring the login for all the info would be much appreciated.

      We are definitely trying to describe the symptoms as a patient would. Currently we are working on some natural language analysis, so that people can free type their symptoms. Also, any other suggestions are very welcome!

      Cheers

    13. Re:Thats why we built MEDgle by ashdamle · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the feedback... :)

      We've had a few instances where folks where just copying the data we had. This was an attempt to protect the IP we have put together.. Any ideas on how we can protect what we have done and provide the options without login would be much appreciated. Also, all the options are available via the auto-complete on the textbox.

      Cheers

    14. Re:Thats why we built MEDgle by snl2587 · · Score: 1

      All the symptoms are available through textbox with auto-complete. We restricted the symptoms shown in the visual section because "some" folks where just coping and using it elsewhere. It was the only solution we could come up with to stop mass copying of the difficult to find data that we have put together.

      Ah, ok. That makes sense.

      Might I suggest that this is stated somehow at the time, like a "why?" button next to the logon link? It could pop out a box explaining something about how the database is exhaustively researched...the phrasing would need work, but for the tech-minded the reason for locking down the data would be immediately evident and for everyone else, well, they either won't care or they will be impressed and more inclined to use the service.

      An additional suggestion: clicking on the links with script disabled causes 404 errors...probably won't affect many people, but it would be nicer if it failed gracefully.

    15. Re:Thats why we built MEDgle by Reziac · · Score: 1

      I saw the second box but it was greyed out (or rather, the box I'd apparently want to use next was). Seriously non-obvious. :)

      I think I'd drop the upfront reference to login-required and not bring it up at all unless the user wanted to go beyond the four allowed query terms, then make it come up instead of a 5th search term.

      Do you have a reason for wanting the login? I had an AC reply who also complained about it, and about logins in general where there's no real reason for it.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    16. Re:Thats why we built MEDgle by Znork · · Score: 1

      The problem with computers sorting on symptoms is that symptoms are common, symptoms overlap diseases and there are a lot of unconscious filters that medical professionals use to get the diagnosis

      It's not so much a problem with computers as a problem with diseases. Remember, the unconscious filters that medical professionals use to get the diagnosis also often get the wrong diagnosis.

      The problem space of accurately matching symptoms with diseases is _hard_, and it's also a problem which is almost entirely unsuited to the human brain.

      They could be useful as an adjunct to jog your memory

      Jogging memory may be exactly what, as it were, the doctor ordered. Most of the research I've seen indicates that patients researching their own issues have a much better chance of avoiding missed diagnosis or other failures. Jogging the professionals memory may be much of the reason for that.

      Software that provides possible options, statistical likelyhood for each, suggesting ways to rule out or rule in options, seriousness and time sensitivity of testing for each option, etc, could do a lot to reduce incidence of mistakes.

    17. Re:Thats why we built MEDgle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.patientslikeme.com/ has a bunch of stats entered by individual users about the drugs they're taking.

    18. Re:Thats why we built MEDgle by ashdamle · · Score: 1

      :) Any thoughts on how MEDgle can be more helpful? Cheers

    19. Re:Thats why we built MEDgle by ashdamle · · Score: 1

      What you outlines is definitely where we want to go. Any suggestions how we can make it clearer for people to do a search and print it out and take with them when they have the visit? As the per patient adverse reaction to drugs, we are currently working on the infrastructure. We recently finished cross-connecting the drugs and diagnoses.

      Any other suggestions?

      Cheers

    20. Re:Thats why we built MEDgle by ashdamle · · Score: 1

      We (MEDgle) completely agree. We are looking into whatever ways we can to help people articulate their symptoms. Any ideas?

      Cheers

    21. Re:Thats why we built MEDgle by ashdamle · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the link..

      We don't believe MEDgle is a complete health care solution by itself. Our hope is that is is used in conjunction to improve the quality and timeliness of health care.

      Cheers

      MEDgle

    22. Re:Thats why we built MEDgle by Twinbee · · Score: 1

      Well, it would be nice if the suggestions came up faster, but that may not be too easy to solve.

      Really all I can say is to see what people actually type into that box, and add more entries and keywords based on those really, but you probably already do/knew that.

      Oh and maybe if any extra extraneous words were typed, it'd be nice if it found the entries that matched most of those words, rather than coming up with nothing at all...

      --
      Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
  11. This spells trouble by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    So you are color blind, you have a malformed chest and you cannibalize your own flesh... A rare combination indeed.

  12. Auto-Cannibalism / Isolation by Jizzbug · · Score: 0
    --

    -=/\- Jizzbug -/\=-
  13. "Browser, browser..." by gyrogeerloose · · Score: 2, Funny

    "...it hurts when I go like this!

    --
    This ain't rocket surgery.
    1. Re:"Browser, browser..." by gooman · · Score: 3, Funny

      Well, then don't do that.

      --
      "Kittens give Morbo gas!"
    2. Re:"Browser, browser..." by gyrogeerloose · · Score: 1

      Thanks. I was hoping someone out there remembered that ancient joke.

      --
      This ain't rocket surgery.
  14. It's not new, just easier by girlintraining · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The web hasn't made this behavior any less prevalent, it's just made it easier for people to fall into the trap. There are two camps in the medical community right now; Those who think that medical knowledge should be contained to those who are properly licensed, and those who think knowledge is power (but hope people use it responsibly). If this sounds familiar, it should -- our community (the technical and engineering disciplines) have had the same debate. We've all had our share of "technocondriacs" -- people who insist there's something wrong with their computer, even when we've scanned it with everything, reloaded the operating system, and defragged the drive five times... They somehow think it should run faster, or that there's a button somewhere to do X when there's never been X in that application. And no sniggering about literacy or operating system of choice here -- it happens to users of all backgrounds.

    One example is pharmaceutical advertisements. Five years ago, using the words "Erectile Dysfunction" would have left people giggling on the floor. These days, it gets an eye roll and a remembrance of those commercials. It's undisputed some people have a problem rising to the challenge and may not have known there was a treatment for it, but the unintended consequence is a lot of people are taking medications that aren't medically necessary because of self-esteem problems, obesity, or a plethora of other causes that can be treated without a pill. Which of course leads to the "Solve everything with a pill" attitude that our society seems to enjoy, but that's a topic for another day.

    I have to side with the idea that knowledge should be out there. My friend just got a horrible ear infection that resulted in extreme pain and puss coming out of her ear because the doctor misdiagnosed it as "swimmers ear"; She needed strong antibiotics and he prescribed drops, and so for three days she's been laid out on a couch screaming and crying every few minutes. She only went back to ER after researching out what else it could be besides swimmers ear, and an ear infection turned up -- there was no difference in the symptoms list, except the pain level. And her mother is a registered nurse who works in a hospital -- she didn't find anything wrong with the diagnosis either. My friend's access to the internet may very well have just saved her some hearing loss this week!

    So which side is right? Both. And neither.

    --
    #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    1. Re:It's not new, just easier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      unintended consequence

      /golfclap

    2. Re:It's not new, just easier by Emperor+Zombie · · Score: 2, Funny

      My friend just got a horrible ear infection that resulted in extreme pain and puss coming out of her ear because the doctor misdiagnosed it as "swimmers ear"

      I imagine that having a cat crawl out of one's ear would be quite painful.

      --
      I'm so excited I just made water in my pantaloons!
    3. Re:It's not new, just easier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're a fucking moron, who happens to be very not funny.

    4. Re:It's not new, just easier by lxs · · Score: 2, Insightful

      but the unintended consequence is a lot of people are taking medications that aren't medically necessary

      What makes you think this is an unintended consequence?

    5. Re:It's not new, just easier by NotSoHeavyD3 · · Score: 1

      Very true. Another good example of this is the "disease of the day" report in various magazine shows. I know this is an anecdote but my dad would see these things and then turn around and thing he had them. Hell look at mad cow disease. That's been diagnosed in the US a grand total of 3 times and never from actually eating US beef yet loads of people actually worry about catching it from eating too much beef. (Actually from what I remember it's never been diagnosed from people eating American, Australian, or New Zealand beef. I haven't checked on Canadian beef but I'd guess nobody has caught it from that either.)

      --
      Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
    6. Re:It's not new, just easier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We've all had our share of "technocondriacs" -- people who insist there's something wrong with their computer, even when we've scanned it with everything, reloaded the operating system, and defragged the drive five times... They somehow think it should run faster, or that there's a button somewhere to do X when there's never been X in that application. And no sniggering about literacy or operating system of choice here -- it happens to users of all backgrounds.

      Thanks, was looking for an excuse to bring up CyberSTDs and Cyberchondria STDs that are making the anti-virus industries so much money. Guess should refer to them now as technochondria STDs and technoSTDs since you used that term and to distinguish from human disease phobia. Of course some protection against such issues is built into *nix OSs but that just makes it ask you something akin to "Do you wish to remove the condom from your ROOT and interact with this software?"

      Assumptions, instinctual and learned fear are part of our "programmed" methods of dealing with our environment faster. Hyperchondria is a "goto" programming error in a sub-program that is connected to survival programming or possibly a processor error similar to what can happen with say a Pentium 60. We "jump to conclusions" out of necessity when it comes to survival, couldn't run a full logical analysis when that sabertooth tiger was looking at you which perhaps is how the prejudice against intelligence and logic got started.

    7. Re:It's not new, just easier by girlintraining · · Score: 1

      I imagine that having a cat crawl out of one's ear would be quite painful.

      Yes, however that'ss not anatomically possssible. A more likely explanation might be a ssticky key.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    8. Re:It's not new, just easier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not just puss, but boots as well.

    9. Re:It's not new, just easier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For the benefit of society I hope that he is not a fucking moron, just a plain moron.

    10. Re:It's not new, just easier by girlintraining · · Score: 1

      What makes you think this is an unintended consequence?

      Good point. :( Perhaps "negative consequence" would have been better phrasing.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    11. Re:It's not new, just easier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, antibiotics have little to no effect in otitis media. Lignocaine drops (which is what I imagine she was given) reduce the pain, and is entirely appropriate treatment. Another medication that is not medically necessary are antibiotics overprescribed to zealous patients who don't understand clinical evidence.

    12. Re:It's not new, just easier by girlintraining · · Score: 1

      It was bacterial otitis media, not viral, hence the pus discharge. Antibiotics are entirely appropriate you clod.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    13. Re:It's not new, just easier by Cowmonaut · · Score: 1

      Where's the -1 Not Funny moderation? :P

  15. Cyberchondria? Microsoft? by Philzli · · Score: 0

    That stuff makes me sick, I'm telling you!

  16. Similar to psychology by edcheevy · · Score: 1

    There's a similar phenomenon in psychology when students take their first abnormal psychology class. If you don't want to be (half-jokingly) diagnosed with any number of mental disorders, you want to temporarily avoid a psychology student who has just started to read the DSM!

  17. Zebra syndrome by st0rmshad0w · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yeah this sounds like classic zebra syndrome.

    Zebra Syndrome is immediately jumping to the rare possibility when given a piece of evidence. When you hear hoofbeats you should think "horses", not zebras.

    Someone gets an ache or pain and hops on Google and suddenly they have Schistosomiasis or something else equally as absurd.

    1. Re:Zebra syndrome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah this sounds like classic zebra syndrome.

      Zebra Syndrome is immediately jumping to the rare possibility when given a piece of evidence. When you hear hoofbeats you should think "horses", not zebras.

      Someone gets an ache or pain and hops on Google and suddenly they have Schistosomiasis or something else equally as absurd.

      What if you lived in a country where there are zebras instead of horses?

      Or you were standing in a zoo

    2. Re:Zebra syndrome by IchNiSan · · Score: 1

      Some zoos I have been to(can't think of specific ones right now) have mounted police presence. So if you hear hoofbeats, think horses, unless you are right next to the zebra habitat.

      As for other countries where there are zebra, sure, but there it is probably called Horse Syndrome.

    3. Re:Zebra syndrome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tell that to the survivors of the Great Zebra massacre.

    4. Re:Zebra syndrome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But, but, what if you're in south-central Africa?

    5. Re:Zebra syndrome by Kayden · · Score: 1

      Should you still be thinking horses if you're in the bull pen?

  18. at the risk of paraphrasing Shaw... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...this is a variant of age-old authoritarianism which comes down to ridiculing the layman for trying to be aware and take care of the affairs normally reserved for a "pro".

    I've known one person - already suffering from a mental illness which would likely cause the described symptoms - who has panicked from reading medical sites and attempting self-diagnosis. Everyone else I know seems perfectly capable of observing that people aren't regularly collapsing in the street, and while certain symptoms warrant a quick elimination of serious cause, a diagnostic test is likely to result in good news.

    Unfortunately - and particularly under the UK's NHS - it's often the patient rather than the doctor that needs to express that the odds may be low, but not so low that, say, an MRI isn't warranted. For certain conditions, good diagnostic testing also enables the right treatment to be chosen.

    If you don't want to offend your ego-sensitive doctor, express your thoughts as questions: "I'm trying to understand more about my body. Can you explain why it would not be X, say, or Y?" A primary care practitioner/GP is partly an applied statistician, so if you have a maths/science background, you might also get a lot of interesting information.

  19. Personal experience by bsDaemon · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A few years ago, I woke up with a terrible pain in my lower abdomen. I did a quick Google search and matched all the symptoms of appendicitis, so I got my parents to take me to the hospital.

    The first doctor also thought that I had it and scheduled me for surgery. However, the surgeon said to wait for a while.

    Turns out that it wasn't appendicitis and that I just had to fart really, really, really badly. Of course, 24hrs in the hospital to figure it out probably makes it the most expensive fart ever -- something around $5,000.

    So yes, this "cyberchondria" really is a problem.

    1. Re:Personal experience by BorgDrone · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The first doctor also thought that I had it and scheduled me for surgery. However, the surgeon said to wait for a while.

      That's the thing that bugs me the most about the whole medical pseudo-science. They just try something and hope it works, they never actually try to get to the bottom of it and find the real problem. High blood pressure ? Here, have some medication that artificially lowers it. They don't bother to find out WHY it's high and correct that.

      It's a good thing these guys didn't go into the programming business because I bet they would be awful at debugging.

    2. Re:Personal experience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and apparently so is health care wherever you live that it costed $5K

    3. Re:Personal experience by bsDaemon · · Score: 1

      I had dropped out of uni for a little while, so I wasn't covered by my parents' insurance at the time and we had to pay the full bill. But yes, the health care system in America is pretty broken.

    4. Re:Personal experience by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Honestly, is sounds like everything worked properly. Just because you have to wait a few minutes at a red light when there are no cars coming in the other direction doesn't mean you give up on stop lights. If your symptoms looked like appendicitis, then you should have been at the hospital. The surgeon didn't think it looked EXACTLY like appendicitis, so he said to wait, but kept you close at hand in case he was wrong, yet didn't do a surgery that was unnecessary.

      What would have been a problem outcome is if the surgeon got in there, saw your appendix was fine, but took it out anyway to avoid a malpractice lawsuit.

  20. Mirror, mirror... by SrWebDeveloper · · Score: 2, Funny

    So I looked up "Porn Addict" on WebMD, you know - to do research for a paper I'm writing - and got to a page there which included a brief Flash video of me behind my keyboard, typing in "Porn Addict" on WebMD. Jesus, this technology is AMAZING.

  21. You'd be surprised. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This'll probably sound trollish, but it's a true story:

    One day while I was... uh.. taking care of business... I noticed something was a little off. Mostly because that activity shouldn't be painful.

    A few web searches later (and I'm talking days and days of web-based research), I was quite convinced that I'd suddenly had my first herpes outbreak. The symptoms lined up: Blistering, redness, soreness, painful ulcers, the whole lot. After it didn't go away (and some of the denial wore off) I saw my doctor.

    "I think this is herpes," he said to me.

    A couple of standard tests and a bottle of Valtrex later, I lacked a conclusive diagnosis.

    After waiting three months for a referral to a dermatologist (they really do take forever, we need more of them), I went through months of excruciating morning wood with what felt like an endless herpes outbreak (cause I frequently wake up laying on my stomach) to have the dermatologist look at it for about 20 seconds before he finally diagnosed Lichen Planus.

    In my personal experience though, my web-based self diagnosis was just as good as the one a real doctor had had before real tests were done.

    On a side note, at least I know I don't have any herpes virus, or hep C.

    Cheers.

  22. also called med student hyperchondria by peter303 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The condition is common in med students who seem to get sick with whatever conditions they've recently studied.

  23. It Has A Medical Counterpart, Too by Wandering+Wombat · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Because doctors know that people can often search for stuff like this on the internet, many medical professionals will IMMEDIATE ignore any and all such comments or queries. I've come to three doctors now with information I found in medical journals and on the internet which match my symptoms (migraines, blackouts, audio and visual hallucinations, seizures, fugue states... basically, every facet of certain kinds of epilepsy). All three doctors have told me, in various ways, that since I found this information myself, it's clearly NOT what I have.

    I continue to have blackouts and seizures, and continue to go untreated, because unless I have a seizure in my doctor's office, he'll just assume I'm trying to get medication out of him.

    I call it "Smug Superioritis".

    --
    I like to place meaningful quotes in my sig, so people will know that I know what meaningful quotes are.
    1. Re:It Has A Medical Counterpart, Too by ptbarnett · · Score: 1

      I call it "Smug Superioritis".

      I suggest you find another doctor.

      After years of taking penicillin-based antibiotics with no problems, I developed an allergy to it -- probably because of a stronger than normal dose. However, my reaction was a rare one. So, when I complained to the doctor, he didn't have an immediate answer. It got so bad I couldn't sleep, so on a hunch I got up in the middle of the night and pulled up the full disclosure for the medication from the manufacturer. I had to look up the meaning of some of the terms used for side effects reported during the drug trials, but I found an exact hit. I called the doctor's office the next morning, and their reaction was swift -- stop taking it.

      Since then, my doctor has never questioned any investigation I do on my own. He even complemented the Wikipedia entry that I found on something I contracted (although in all fairness, it was quite obvious), and joked: "what do you need me for?". I shot back: "because I don't have a license to prescribe the medication!".

      I'm sure that doctors see psychosomatic illnesses all the time. But, if they refuse to take the time to differentiate between the real and imagined symptoms, they are missing a big part of the picture. Maybe a few big lawsuits from people who went untreated will change their mind.

      If you can afford it, try going to the emergency room of a regional health center -- especially right after a seizure/blackout. I inadvertently found that certain complaints set off an overwhelming response, and even after I tried to slow it down, the doctor admitted that once I said those "magic words", they were obligated to follow through to avoid potential liability.

    2. Re:It Has A Medical Counterpart, Too by Wandering+Wombat · · Score: 1

      I have gone to the hospital, but they best they can tell me is "inconclusive". I might have it, I might not, and unless I spend something like 72 hours hooked up to an EEG and deprived of sleep, they won't be able to tell for sure, and even if they get a positive hit, the medication sounds worse than the condition.

      I just want to be taken seriously by the people who have made it their life's mission to make sick people feel better. *grumble* Still, these are the same doctors who said for six months that my son had "growing pains", before FINALLY giving him a blood test and finding out "Oh, hey, your son has a rare idiopathic form of juvenile arthritis, and he'll be on medication and physiotherapy for the next four years. If only we had caught it sooner."

      --
      I like to place meaningful quotes in my sig, so people will know that I know what meaningful quotes are.
    3. Re:It Has A Medical Counterpart, Too by Kayden · · Score: 1

      =\ I can identify. When I was young every time I went to the doctor I'd complain of chest pains and headaches and painful breathing. The answer was always, "Hmm... keep an eye on it and let me know if it continues or gets worse." It went on like that for YEARS because I go to the doctor like once a year... The pain stopped and my headaches were written off as computer strain. I went to a chiropractor several years later for a sore shoulder and he took some xrays. I have scoliosis and all the pain I had growing up was due to my ribs growing the wrong way. Thankfully, it was found well after anything could be done about it. Really disgusts me that I will never be able to sleep a full night because that lazy prick didn't want to take one xray.

    4. Re:It Has A Medical Counterpart, Too by Nalgas+D.+Lemur · · Score: 1

      I have gone to the hospital, but they best they can tell me is "inconclusive". I might have it, I might not, and unless I spend something like 72 hours hooked up to an EEG and deprived of sleep, they won't be able to tell for sure, and even if they get a positive hit, the medication sounds worse than the condition.

      As someone who is epileptic, has spent a good deal of time reading up on it, and has spent a good deal of time talking to his neurologist about it, I'm very serious when I say to go find a new neurologist, preferably yesterday. You might be right about what's happening. You might not. Either way, though, you deserve to be taken seriously, have it properly looked into, and given a straight answer about it.

      A surprisingly large number of people who do end up getting diagnosed and treated for seizure disorders don't have anything conclusive show up on either an EEG or an MRI, so a bunch of the time it comes down to going by symptoms.

      I've personally been very lucky with dealing with doctors like that, but neurologists as a whole do have a reputation for sometimes acting like gods of their domain even more than doctors in general, as if they're all-knowing about brain functions. If you do run into someone like that, don't tell them what you think is wrong with you or what you've been looking up on your own; tell them what's been happening, and let them come to their own conclusion, whether it's some type of seizure disorder, migraines (most people would be surprised to learn just how weird they can be; they can cause a lot of the same things to happen as many kinds of seizures, only for a different reason), psychogenic non-epileptic seizures, or something else totally unrelated. That is their job, after all, and if you're paying them, they should be doing it for you.

      As far as the bit about the medication sounding worse than the condition, if you're on the right medication (for you; everyone reacts differently), that's absolutely not true. Some of the older medications have a higher rate of annoying side effects, although they tend to be extremely effective, and a bunch of people tolerate them just fine. The newer ones, though, are a lot more benign on average. It took me a few tries to find one that both worked well and didn't cause any other problems, but we've come up with one now that I basically have no side effects from, as long as I don't miss doses.

      As for why taking them is important, even if it involves a couple failed med trials with weird side effects or having to tolerate side effects with what you do eventually settle on, seizures are kind of a Big Deal. If that is what's actually going on, leaving them untreated is a Bad Idea, because they have a tendency to get progressively worse over time if you don't do anything about it. For a lot of people, they start to happen more often and are more unpleasant the longer they're not under control, and that also makes them harder to get under control in the first place.

      Not to scare you or anything, since I have no way of knowing what's really happening to you, and there are in most cases multiple possible causes for things like that. That there's a reasonable possibility that it's something like that is a good reason to get a straight answer about it, though, and to not settle for them beating around the bush. Even if the doctors are a pain in the ass, and the treatment seems potentially like a pain in the ass. It's worth getting sorted out one way or the other.

  24. Symptomitis by DynaSoar · · Score: 1

    That's the general term I'm used to for medical, psychological and similar self-induced symptom anxiety. TFA is just a blatant attempt to claim a piece of it for themselves, when the cause is the same whether it's internet based or Babylonian cuniform on clay tablets.

    The source of the discomfort is plain old cognitive dissonance. Some people are more prone to it than others, for a number of reasons. They're the same ones who intend to relieve the anxiety by learning what they can about why they don't feel well. But being prone to the dissonance, they instead find a rationale for the anxiety that's worse than any real cause, and it backfires and they fall into a feedback loop.

    In psychological and psychiatric training, it's more common for the symptomitis sufferer to diagnose their relatives than themselves.

    --
    "I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
  25. critical thinking by bcrowell · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Most people -- including, I suspect, doctors -- have trouble with critical thinking, and one area that tends to be a particular problem is critical thinking about probabilities and cause-and-effect relationships. I'm a community college professor in California, and recently there was a big state-wide earthquake drill, which they made into sort of a media event. The day before, I heard my students before class talking about it. "There's gonna be an earthquake tomorrow at 10 o'clock." "Huh? They can't predict earthquakes, can they?" "I heard it on the news." "Really?" Most people just accept information without thinking about it critically. Obama won't say the pledge of allegiance? Oh, okay.

    I don't think medicine is different from any other field where people gather their own information, and I don't think health-care professionals are always much better than anyone else at this kind of thing. For example, I had a certain foot problem, and my G.P. prescribed physical therapy. One of the things the physical therapist did was to use ultrasound on my feet (therapeutic ultrasound, not ultrasound for imaging). I checked on the web later, and it turned out that the only controlled scientific studies on the topic had shown that ultrasound had no effect on my condition.

    I think it's telling that "evidence-based medicine" is a term that even needs to be used. If it's not evidence-based, what's it based on? Wishful thinking? Voodoo? The placebo effect?

    1. Re:critical thinking by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      That ultrasound treatment is typical money grabbing by the medical-industrial complex. I struggled with back pain for years, going from doctor to doctor and getting everything from massages to injections, including ultrasound and chiropractics. Nothing helped, except for short term relief.
      After realizing that doctors don't know more about my body than I do myself and that they have their wallets' well being in mind at least as much as mine, I went out and did my own research.
      The solution? A gym membership and 10 personal trainer sessions - intense weight training to strengthen my core muscles. That was several years ago. Now I'm maintaining my body at a cost of about $300 per year, and it's even fun.
      My realization: There is no health care, just sick care. If you want health care, you have to do it yourself. The medical-industrial complex is interested to keep you as a customer.

  26. I claim a patent ... by Old97 · · Score: 1

    on a person thinking they have a disease, syndrome or condition - or talent or acumen for that matter - based on bits of random information collected without the benefit of knowledge or training. There. Everyone now owes me money.

    --
    Very often, people confuse simple with simplistic. The nuance is lost on most. - Clement Mok
  27. The Singularity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Does anyone else find it mildly encouraging that the Internet is bringing the general population up to the level of second-year medical students?

    Ray Kurzweil is smiling somewhere.

    1. Re:The Singularity by DeadManCoding · · Score: 1

      Actually, I find this very disturbing. Med students are in class for learning this stuff, and being objective about diagnosis and treatment of diseases. Having Joe Six Pack figure out he has some acute disease that affects less that 1 percent of the world's population after reading about it online bothers me. Said person then shows up at the doctor's office with his "evidence" of the disease makes me wait an extra hour at the office for a simple check up.

      --
      "The only constant in the universe is change." - Unknown author
    2. Re:The Singularity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then again, if it was YOU that showed up with information that could help a doctor treat a serious condition you or someone close to you has, I'm sure you wouldn't want to hear "Sorry sir/madam, but I have a patient waiting for their checkup here. If you'll just go back to the waiting room, I'll get back to you later. Assuming you haven't died by then."

    3. Re:The Singularity by DeadManCoding · · Score: 1

      If I did have that information, it's about guaranteed that the doctor has that information too. After all, that's what I pay him to do, keep up-to-date on medical research to help me with a disease. Doctor/pharmacists are required to complete continuing education courses so that they have the latest information available. And they also have just as much access to WebMD as me, so no excuses there either.

      --
      "The only constant in the universe is change." - Unknown author
    4. Re:The Singularity by winwar · · Score: 1

      "After all, that's what I pay him to do, keep up-to-date on medical research to help me with a disease. Doctor/pharmacists are required to complete continuing education courses so that they have the latest information available."

      Thanks, that's the best laugh I've had in a long time.

      Doctors, in general, do not keep up with current research. Those who are current are a minority. Hell, if you are lucky they might read the abstracts in a medical journal or two. Considering that most abstracts suck.....

      Think about it. If doctors stayed current on research, why would people care if drug reps/companies gave promotional crap to doctors? We care because the reps often know more about the meds than the doctor. Which is pathetic.

      I mean, how many of your coworkers keep up to date in a meaningful way?

      In any case, if you have something that isn't common, you probably can find more information about it than your doctor. You have an incentive, they don't. Most doctors exist because they are able to prescribe drugs or have been made the gatekeepers. After all, the practice of medicine is just like using a flowchart.

    5. Re:The Singularity by spiko-carpediem · · Score: 1

      Doctors, in general, do not keep up with current research.

      [citation needed]

  28. This is nothing new by Fizzol · · Score: 1

    My Mom has done the same thing with a medical encyclopedia for years. She looks things up and decides she has them.

    1. Re:This is nothing new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      +1

  29. Please state the nature of your medical emergency. by westlake · · Score: 1
    I seem to recall sometime in about 2000 there was a report that a computer program had been designed that asked a series of questions and provided a most likely diagnosis.

    You might want to look at the table on page 10: "Symptoms, Explanations, and Serious Illnesses." The "virtual doctor" has been around like forever - page through almost any back issue of Byte or Creative Computing - if you want to try a sampling FreeMD is a good a place as any to begin. Personally I prefer my HMO's help line nurses, who are on-call 24 hours a day, toll-free.

  30. WTF ARE THEY DOING?!?! by dzk1kuro · · Score: 1

    They should be after the NXE bugs, not chasing baskets full of shit like this. http://forums.xbox.com/24355681/ShowPost.aspx

    1. Re:WTF ARE THEY DOING?!?! by Antlerbot · · Score: 1

      Oh yes, because your precious NXE is more important than psychological research. I love my 360 as much as the next guy, but jeez...

  31. I have a doctors opinion on this by celardore · · Score: 1

    IANAD, but I know several personally, and also from trips to the GP. From what I gather, they quite like that a patient researches the symptoms and mentions this to the Dr. They don't like a patient coming in and saying, "Doctor, I have this illness and require this medication." Self diagnosis is a useful tool for any medical practitioner, but self medication can always be dangerous. A profesional opinion is something that can't be read or learned on the internet.

    A side note, I had dinner with a couple last night who are medical doctors and have been practicing for over 30 years. I asked the question, "What when either of you are ill, do you diagnose each other, yourselves, or what?" They replied that they may well see an out-of-town doctor. Reason being is that if they diagnose themselves or each other there will always be some bias. If they see a colleague who works in the same practice as them, the colleague would know their private business.

  32. Cyberchondria and self diagnosis are good things by syousef · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If you conclude the worst, and you have the disease you might go and seek medical help sooner. If it turns out you're right, you might catch your disease in time to have something about it.

    The other thing to note is that good medical care, even in the "developed" world is increasingly becoming hard to find. Doctors do long hours and are under immense pressure and the best and brightest sren't always attracted to the field, and when they are they often feel entitled to gouge the people they treat while providing sub-standard care. That's not to say there are no good doctors, just that there are surprisingly few. A good doctor will save you but a bad one will get you killed.

    I've had friends and loved ones prescribed medications that almost killed them (and had dosage increased by 3 separate doctors in one case, as one of the contraindications got worse and worse!). I've seen routine things completely misdiagnosed. I've seen a woman with maternal asthma barely able to breath and hacking up huge amounts of flem dismissed as a fat hypochondriac. I've seen shoulder dislocations misdiagnosed as swelling - something that commonly happens resulting in long term should instability. (Don't believe me? Check out the literature on posterior shoulder dislocations and include "avoiding a missed diagnosis" in your search).

    I've also been told I should have my ankle fused by 2 specialists. According to them I should no longer be walking, but when I looked up the long term prospects - after 3 months off my feet completely only a 70-80% chance of success (in which case repeat once then chop off foot) I can expect a couple of years recovering and about 6-7 years before severe ankle arthritis hits. I have gone for more conservative treatment - staying off the ankle - and while there is still pain I walk a couple of kilometers a day and haven't had to sacrifice my career. I may still have to have the surgery but these surgeons didn't even suggest TRYING anything conservative.

    IF you use the internet appropriately instead of looking up ever sneeze and cough and assumign you are dying, the net is a wonderful thing. Anyone who says otherwise has a vested interest in keeping the information from you.

    --
    These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
  33. Steering cartilage? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you need to coin new fake-Greek terms, they should at least make some sense.

  34. On the other hand... by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 1

    ...if you actually do have something badly wrong with you, online resources can be invaluable. They're particularly good when you have something wrong that's rare enough that your doctors don't know what it is, presents a variety of very common symptoms, and you happen to be reasonably intelligent. Online resources can be incredibly valuable in getting an idea of what might be wrong with you, at least to know where to start looking.

    In my case, I had a chronic disease for eight years that doctors proved completely unable to diagnose. Not only that, they couldn't even get me to the right specialist. Finally, after years of putting up with that, I started searching myself for a specific set of symptom combinations that are rather rare for my demographic.

    As it turns out, I was able to do with google and effort that which a bunch of doctors and tests couldn't do: namely, figure out what was wrong with me. Sure, there were lots of scary things (cancers and whatnot) that I was able to easily eliminate because 1) I didn't have the right symptoms, and 2) I'd be dead by now if I had them. Eventually, I found one particular disease that matched all my symptoms.

    And it's a good thing I did, because my particular illness causes chronic symptoms that eventually result in permanent damage. For me, there's no treatment but the damage can be avoided by changes in diet and such. Thankfully, the changes have worked extremely well. Without online resources, I'd probably still be bouncing from doctor to doctor, none of whom apparently have the time to do actual investigative research.

    In an age in which doctors don't have time to be doctors, online resources can be invaluable. You just have to bear in mind that most of the scary syndromes described are usually very rare.

  35. Cyberchondria by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    It's psychosomatic? That means I better take some antibiotics, right?

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  36. Good information has the same problem. by Repossessed · · Score: 1

    Good information isn't much better for hypercondria than bad. For a start, its very difficult for someone who isn't used to looking at the information format to be sure how to interpret it. I've dealt with people who are afraid they have $condition, because they show most of the symptoms, but simply neglect to look at the symptoms that don't fit, or aren't aware that 9 of the ten symptoms (which they have) don't mean a thing because the tenth is critical. Subjective ones, like major pain, or stiff neck (without qualifiers like unable to touch you chin to your chest), cause problems as well since its easy to get mild symptoms interpreted as worse than they really are in a panic (judgment is not terribly good when fatigue and fever are taking their toll).

    --
    Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite (TM)
    1. Re:Good information has the same problem. by cheater512 · · Score: 1

      Some dodgy ads prey on that. "Have you got back pain? A mild cough? A itchy toe? Well you need !"

  37. On the other hand by wytcld · · Score: 1

    A friend's vet told her her beloved cat needed to be killed because it had "advanced cancer." So she spent days on the Net searching on her cat's symptoms. She came across the suggestion that it could be a gluten allergy, fed the cat a gluten-free diet, and now six months later the cat is entirely healthy.

    So ... go to the doctor first if it seems serious. But you're a damn fool if you accept a diagnosis or treatment without first doing your own research. Misdiagnosis - by doctors - is one of the leading causes of death.

    --
    "with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
  38. The obvious joke... by MessyBlob · · Score: 2, Funny

    I think I have Cyberchondria...

  39. Common among open source weirdos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hans Reiser thinks his wife had "Munchausen's Syndrome by Proxy" and recently accused his lawyer of having oxytocin excess. Bram Cohen thinks he has Asperger's. I would guess that the vast majority of the people that say they or their children have Asperger's probably fall under Cyberchondria. The DSM-IV is great for this as it's just chock full of vague symptoms that are easily misinterpreted by people with no training.

  40. The internet saved my sight by GreatDrok · · Score: 1

    Last year, I woke up and found that my eye was full of floaters and I was seeing flashes. I quickly checked for those symptoms using Google which led me to a page on Wikipedia describing the symptoms of a detached retina. I called my wife down from upstairs and told her we were going to the hospital. When a doctor checked my eye, I had indeed suffered a posterior vitreous detachment which had ripped several chunks of retina away. I was immediately treated with a laser and the doctor told me that if I hadn't been so prompt it is likely I would have gone blind in that eye. I have had to have several other surgeries (more laser treatment, vitrectomy and finally a membrane peel) and am on the road to recovery. I will likely get a cataract which will be treated by lens replacement but at least I can still see.

    Of course, my symptoms were quite specific so I can understand people with quite general symptoms thinking they have cancer or something.

    --
    "I have the attention span of a strobe lit goldfish, please get to the point quickly!"
  41. This is such old news... by Twisted64 · · Score: 1

    This is such old news that one of my favourite books, Three Men in a Boat by Jerome K. Jerome, has already covered it. Published in 1889, and required reading for anyone with a sense of humour.

    --
    Consciousness is a myth. Trust me.
  42. I, too, don't mind patients who do research by KWTm · · Score: 1

    they quite like that a patient researches the symptoms and mentions this to the Dr. They don't like a patient coming in and saying, "Doctor, I have this illness and require this medication."

    Agree. I had mentioned in a previous post that information on the Internet can be rather useful. I do enjoy patients who do reserach beforehand, so they come prepared. Typically they will say, "Well, I know we're not supposed to believe everything on the Internet, but I looked on WebMD, and it said [such and such]." They list a few possibilities. They will also tell me what they're worrying about, such as "my uncle had my symptoms too, and he eventually died, so I looked up Cancer of the Oogali-Boogali gland" or whatever, and then I can address their concerns. One nice thing about such patients is that you can say, "I think it's [whatever]" and they're happy to go look up the details themselves, so you're not stuck spending an extra 5 minutes explaining what rhinovirus is and why it's not going to kill them.

    What I hate, as you've alluded to, is patients who have checked the Internet and have already made up their minds about what to do. Of these patients, the ones that drive me nuts are the ones that don't even tell you what the problem is, just the test they want to do, like, "Morning, doctor. I need an ultrasound of the thyroid." Eventually further questioning reveals that they feel a lump in their throat and they're worried about hyperthyroidism (which does not cause a lump in the throat, and even if it did, is not diagnosed with an ultrasound). By taking a step back and identifying their concerns ("let's look at what other possible causes are of a lump in the throat") I get them to take a more rational and scientifically/medically correct approach (meaning that the sequence of tests is much more likely to yield a useful diagnosis), but it takes an extra 5-10 minutes, and I feel like strangling them as I wrap up the visit with a smile and say, "See you next time! Get well soon! (Now just let me deal with the next patient who has been kept waiting!)"

    I was pleasantly surprised by the large proportion of my patients who are of the former type, reasonable people who gather info on the Internet but don't commit to believing it, just bringing it to me to sort through with them. I think the general population, or at least my own patient population, is becoming more mature with respect to how to deal with the large amount of info on the Internet.

    Hardest to deal with of all is a subtle attitude on some of the patients who read info on the Internet and have their way of thinking swayed in a pervasive but subtle way. For example, people who refuse vaccinations because they've read about negative consequences of vaccination adverse effects are victims of the perceptive error that the probability of an event is proportional to how clearly it sticks in one's mind. Anecdotal evidence of one case where a vaccine caused someone to sprout horns and an extra pair of eyes doesn't mean that it's not preventing serious illness --and even death!-- not just for the patient but for those who would otherwise have been infected by the patient. But these people don't come in saying, "Gee, I read this thing on the Interet 3 years ago. Do you think I should get vaccinated?" They just say, "No, I'd rather not get the shot," and you're lefting wondering where they got the info on which they based their decision. Chances are it's from the Internet, from something that could have been debunked by snopes.com or something similar.

    So, the Internet is a tool. It can be used wisely, or poorly, and for the latter group of patients, we doctors just have to suck it up and spend the extra hand-holding time trying to educate them on proper use of the Internet. Maybe this research on "cyberchondria" can be a tool in this effort.

    --
    404555974007725459910684486621289147856453481154 in hex is "You sank my Battleship?"
    [GPG key in journal]
    1. Re:I, too, don't mind patients who do research by smilindog2000 · · Score: 1

      The Internet can also be a useful tool in cases of rare diseases. In my case, I'm losing vision rapidly, due to an unusual cone dystrophy. After visiting many Ophthalmologists, the verdict is in: I'm going legally blind, fairly rapidly, and there's nothing that can be done about it. No particular doctor has the time to research exactly what's going on in my case, so the Internet is my friend.

      After much research on-line, I think I've found the only published study on-line of anyone with my specific condition. If you Google "Protanopia cone dystrophy bullseye", the top link is a paper from 1995 describing two men with similar problems, one of whom is fairly likely to have the same genetic eye disorder as me (hybrid L/M cones). Of course, the paper simply reported the condition, and possible cause. The doctors are right - there's nothing to be done. At least now, I have some idea of what might actually be wrong. It sucks to be going blind and wonder if it was all that pot I smoked in high school, or a tick bite, or any of a thousand things. When your doctors are clueless, the Internet can still provide some insight, and in my case, provide some comfort.

      --
      Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy.
    2. Re:I, too, don't mind patients who do research by gunnk · · Score: 1

      I'm *really* sorry about your situation. Let me add my experience (which has a happier ending).

      When my daughter was five she had some tests come back with abnormal results. Our pediatrician referred us to a nephrologist. The nephrologist told us to educate ourselves about her condition and to prepare for the worst. The initial prognosis: she'd likely not live to turn 18.

      My response was to dive in via the web. I dug as deep as I could into the condition -- all the way into reading med school lecture notes that had been posted on the web.

      One of those sets of lecture notes made reference to a confounder in the tests: patients with a strep infection in the weeks prior to the tests would indicate they were doomed when they really weren't.

      My daughter was one of those cases.

      She's now 13, an A student, popular, and a championship athlete. She's as healthy as an ox.

      A little (OK, a LOT) of online research saved her from some pretty invasive medical procedures (kidney tissue sampling) and saved us a world of worry and thousands of dollars pursuing a bogus diagnosis (the nephrologist had failed to notice the strep infection in her records).

      Knowledge is power, folks. Use it wisely and it can be your best friend.

      --
      Life is short: void the warranty.
    3. Re:I, too, don't mind patients who do research by smilindog2000 · · Score: 1

      I'm glad to hear about your daughter. My brother had a similar diagnosis when little. I remember my parents trying to figure out how to buy a dialysis machine. He had a "miraculous" recovery. Fortunately for me, I'm in a good position to do well with very poor eye sight, so don't worry about me.

      --
      Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy.
  43. Web is just a tool. by Usagi_yo · · Score: 1
    The Web information is just a tool. I dont' find the subject of misuse or missapplication very interesting. What would be interesting is accuracy and locations.

    Online searching of medical information has been very good for me, health wise, and getting healthy wise.

    You ever develop a propensity for syncope. Followed by waking up surrounded by passwerbys askign if your okay. ... you'll know what I mean.

    Just like in Computer 101 -- GIGO. Usagi yo.

  44. Cybernetic mitochondria? by FilterMapReduce · · Score: 1

    Did anyone else click the RSS link thinking the article would be about cybernetic mitochondria? That would have been much cooler.

    1. Re:Cybernetic mitochondria? by Antlerbot · · Score: 1
      Is that when R2D2 becomes a Jedi?

      ...cause that would be awesome.

  45. after misdiagnosis and misprognosis.... by bgd73 · · Score: 1

    ..along comes "mr.2yr medical school" with an idea to wrap up the incredibly high incomes of medicine, and claim all peaple are stupid for finding thier own disease on the internet dicrediting the masocist buttmunch that ruined thier life called a "doctor."...True Story.

  46. This happened to me by iampiti · · Score: 1

    About two years ago I started to have problems to sleep. It started mild but it became serious insomnia
    Since that was not normal I started to research on the internet. The more I read the more horrible possible causes I found and the more worried I got. The more worried I got the worse I felt(It's really incredible what your state of mind can do to your "physical" body!)...go to step one. It was a vicious circle.
    In the end I was diagnosed a depression with anxiety and that's what it was.
    Obviously it was not the internet that caused my problems but reading about diseases didn't do me good.
    It's good it all ended

  47. self-diagnosed Asperger's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ah, now the "self-diagnosed Asperger's" crowd have one more reason to whine about the world not understanding them.

  48. Three Men in a Boat by whitroth · · Score: 1

    by Jerome K. Jerome, published 1889 (yes, I *did* say the 19th century). Somewhere in the first ten pages, Our Narrator goes to a library, and finds a medical textbook to find if he has a certain disease, and flips it open. By the time he's done, he thinks he has everything in the book (other than housemaid's knees).

    Read the book. The first half is hysterical, and the last half a lyrical paen to the Themes Valley of England.

    Yes, the Monty Python crew made a movie of it, but the book's still better.

                    mark

  49. diagnosed hypochondriac for 10 years by rickygw · · Score: 1

    im an actual psychiatrist-diagnosed hypchondriac. every few months i get a new symptom that cant be explained...and despite my knowing full well its not a serious illness...i go into a fit of depression and anxiety thinking ive have the worst things imaginable until the symptoms fade away. then the worry goes away and im normal again. a cycle that happens every 3 to 5 months.

    "cyberchondria" is a big deal to people like me. it makes it worse. i can speak from experience that looking symptoms up on the internet, finding a horrible disease that "mostly fits", and then latching onto it can actually make you mentally and physically ill. for instance:

    these past 2 weeks, ive had a constant mild headache. also a little fatigued. did fine for the first 3 or 4 days...everyone keeps telling me its sinuses. then after day 4 i started looking up symptoms...BRAIN TUMOR. big time. i latched onto it and havent looked back. i cant eat, i cant sleep, i cant think straight. all of these things give me more symptoms, which makes it all worse. after reading about brain tumors, i started to develop seeing problems, though i couldnt explain them to you because they are so vague (because they dont exist). i started to feel dizziness....but i could never actually make myself dizzy when i tried (like spinning around really fast).

    ive thought ive had other diseases, read what they "could be", and then the worrying starts and the worrying creates new symptoms. a lot of them are what ive read online.

    in my life time, as a result of hypo/cyberchondria, ive had ultrasounds of my kidneys, a colonoscopy, 2 prostate checks, a million blood tests and a million more urine tests. ive "had" failing kidneys, bladder cancer, colon cancer, a brain tumor, throat cancer, testicular cancer, diabetes, penis cancer, multiple sclerosis...the list goes on..and some of these ive had more than once. the wierd thing is, im totally a normal person. all of these sounds like i should be in a mental hospital (one of my hypchondriac fears as well)...but if you met me you'd never know it. im a pretty regular guy.

    so, this is my experience with cyberchondria. now for my 2 cents...i actually think the information should be available on the internet. its information like any other, and looking it up has uses other than unprofessional self-diagnoses. further more, as you can see i am proof that this information does harm...but thats not the fault of the information providers. thats my fault. like a lot of things in this world...its not the existence of something that makes it good or bad, its what we decide to do with it. i look this stuff up, i decide to jump to conclusions and i (more or less) decide to go ape shit over it. thats not WebMD's or MayClinic's fault. i think the only responsibility companies like these have is that the information is accurate. after that, if they WANT to, they can go a step further and include statistical information in the range of "brain tumors are rare and most headaches are brain tumors" to "in 2007, 20,076 cases of brain tumors were reported out of a population of 250,000,000".

    i think its cool that M$ is looking into this and at least talks about wanting to do something about it (or rather about the behavior behind it as it relates to search engines). i mean cyberchondriacs are still a small percentage of the population (like most of the diseases they look up), but the fact they took any interest at all is a cool point on M$'s side.

  50. Not always the fault of web users by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I just did a search for "fever" on WebMD. Look at the results on the first page. Any wonder people invent crazy diseases?

    Scarlet Fever

    Typhoid Fever

    Marburg Hemorrhagic Fever

    Report: Fever Improves Autism Symptoms

    Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever

  51. Opposite example by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    While this is probably true, I have experienced the opposite. One night when I was sure I wasn't going to make it to the morning, I searched online and found a forum of a zillion people who described the exact same feeling and explained that they've been living with it for 50 years and they're still alive. That calmed me down and now I don't worry about it anymore.

  52. Nailing Google by droopy16 · · Score: 1

    not big fan Google myself, but something tells me this research has something (more likely: everything) to do with Google's "Google Health" service http://blogoscoped.com/files/google-health-login-large.png . I don't trust either monstrosity with my health, but usually results of MS studies that undermine competition are somewhat biased ;)

    P.S. People who look for ways to prove they're sick will find those ways regardless of medium (nobody closed libraries... yet ).