Slashdot Mirror


An Ethical Question Regarding Ebooks

tytso writes "Suppose there is a book that you want to read on your ebook reader, but it is out of print (so even if you purchase the dead-tree version of the book used, the author won't receive any royalties) and the publisher has refused to make it available as an ebook. You can buy it from Amazon as a used book, but that isn't your preferred medium. It is available on the internet as a pirated etext, however. This blog post outlines a few possibilities, and then asks, 'What is the right thing to do? And why?' I'm also curious if the answers change depending on whether you are a Baby Boomer, or a Gen X, Gen Y, etc. — I've noticed that attitudes around copyright seem to change depending on whether someone is a college student or a recent college graduate, versus someone who can remember a time when the Internet did not exist."

94 of 715 comments (clear)

  1. Get it in both forms by pxc · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The most obviously moral/practical solution in my opinion would be to order the text used from Amazon and then read the pirated electronic version.

    1. Re:Get it in both forms by Bob+Gelumph · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Born early 80s. I agree. Buying second hand books still has an effect on the market. The better the second hand price is, the more can be charged for new books. If you want it in a format that isn't legally available, at least buy it in a format that is legally available as well. This is my conclusion to the situation that has been presented of someone who wants to act ethically.

      --
      I'm gonna need a spec.
    2. Re:Get it in both forms by EdelFactor19 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Also a child of the 80's and I agree; obv IANAL, but to me the spirit of the license and fair use of the content transcends the medium. Example: you simply can't buy a mini-disc with commercial content on it such as Name Popular Album. People buy the album in whatever format is available and convert/record it onto the mini disc, the desired format.

      FWIW I also think that if you already owned a copy of the book but perhaps it was faded beyond readability / eaten by the dog and you disposed of the remains you would similarly have the 'ethical right' to download the book.

      --
      "Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny" ~Frank Zappa
      EdelFactor
    3. Re:Get it in both forms by Darkness404 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That might make sense with some formats, but how exactly am I going to take a physical book and turn it into an e-book? Its trivial to take a tape and turn it into an MP3, take a tape and burn it to CD, take a CD and write it to tape, but you can't just stick a book in a magical converter and it change to an e-book.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    4. Re:Get it in both forms by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you're giving money to the person who is a creator, then you're doing a public service by empowering them to continue to create, but are not actually morally obligated to do so.

      If, however, you're giving money to a corporation that doesn't create things, but actively utilizes the economic power you gave them to ensure that things others create remain artificially scarce so that it's profit margins remain strong, then you are responsible for every individual who was needlessly deprived of access.

      It's not just "ok" to infringe copyright in such cases. It's an immoral act to fund such groups by making a purchase, it's your moral responsibility not to fund such groups, and it's an act of public service to subvert their capacity to continue to act in such a fashion.

      In summary, if can't put the money directly into the hand of the person who created the work, it's better not to pay for it at all, and it's better to help others to also not pay for it at all.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    5. Re:Get it in both forms by Kral_Blbec · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yes you can, its called a scanner and OCR.

      As one who has bought all his textbooks for school and then promptly downloaded/scanned them to use on his laptop, I can tell you it works quite well.

    6. Re:Get it in both forms by pha3r0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Also a product of the early 80's: I agree. I have a large music and movie collection, most of them are also on hard drive or backup dvd's. I own several hundred books some of them I have gone and downloaded in E-Book format because I wanted to take them along on the road with me. Most of those were downloaded from evil hax0rs because the publishers do not offer them in digital format.

      My father (born 1956, and is totally against pirating and clueless about computers) totally agrees with my policy that if you own one copy regardless of whether it was second hand or not, you may do what you wish convert it, backup, etc. He has been a printer for 30 years and seen several competitors go under in copyright lawsuits, he wont even let someone copy a dollar bill or starbucks' logo on his machine in fear of a lawsuit.

      We both know full well what is moral and what is immoral. You all should to. Pay to play, either the artist or the company that owns the rights.

    7. Re:Get it in both forms by warsql · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A creator can choose to avoid the business risk associated with publishing by using a publishing company. The publishing company agrees to accept the business risk and pay the author a negotiated fee, often including advance pay without which the creation would never have existed. So paying the publishing company is enabling the next creator. This is morally equivalent to paying the creator directly.

      --
      878659 - yep its prime.
    8. Re:Get it in both forms by WhatAmIDoingHere · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As TFS mentions, nobody involved in the writing/publishing of the book would get a dime of that used copy.

      --
      Not a Twitter sockpuppet... but I wish I was.
    9. Re:Get it in both forms by Free+the+Cowards · · Score: 5, Informative

      Irregardless

      Please do not use this non-word, it is painful to the eyes.

      --
      If you mod me Overrated, you are admitting that you have no penis.
    10. Re:Get it in both forms by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 3, Interesting
      What interesting logic this is. The fact is that [in most cases] whoever did create the content willingly agreed to let the corporation handle distribution of it. Whatever deal they have cut between them has no bearing on whether you should 'pirate' or not.

      In summary, if can't put the money directly into the hand of the person who created the work, it's better not to pay for it at all, and it's better to help others to also not pay for it at all.

      This I agree with. Assuming that you mean "if I don't want to support the corp doing this, I will not own this, and will encourage others to also not own it". This is the same kind of choice we have to make with tangible goods: either we want it enough that we pay for it despite moral qualms; or we do without in hopes that enough people doing without will make a difference.

      Why should this be different?

    11. Re:Get it in both forms by Rachel+Lucid · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You don't.

      In the solution posted above, you're paying for a legal copy, but still downloading and using the pirated form as the e-book you desired to begin with.

      Alternatively, you make it into an E-book yourself. Tedious, yes, but I remember one Hungarian girl copying a Harry Potter book by hand so she could have a print copy. Be thankful typing isn't nearly so tedious.

    12. Re:Get it in both forms by Microlith · · Score: 2, Insightful

      if can't put the money directly into the hand of the person who created the work, it's better not to pay for it at all, and it's better to help others to also not pay for it at all.

      What if it wasn't just one person? What if it was a studio that brought all the people and resources together to create a work?

      Will you shaft them just because they're a studio, or will you demand the ability to generate 10-100-1000 transactions to pay each member of a production individually?

    13. Re:Get it in both forms by gnuASM · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If you're giving money to the person who is a creator, then you're doing a public service by empowering them to continue to create, but are not actually morally obligated to do so.

      I am also a product of the '70s, and I agree with this statement you make. Although you are not morally obligated to empower them to continue to create, you are legally required to. And unfortunately, many deem this as a moral or ethical obligation. The legal requirement that is our current copyright law is a dowry for the content creator to continue to create AND distribute their works.

      The main problem I see is that the content creator at some point fails to continue to provide distribution of the work. The second-hand market is completely immaterial to this subject. Copyright is when we, as The People, relinquish our right to disseminate information freely, as a dowry for the content creators to create AND distribute their works. If the creators of content fail, themselves, to distribute their works, then they have failed their own obligation to We, The People, and thus, there is no moral nor ethical obligation on our part to continue to waive our right over the information.

      Copyright deals with the right to distribute, not the right of ownership. Nobody owns information. Copyright is simply there as an incentive to have creative minds create AND distribute their work. If they fail to do either, then there is no moral nor ethical obligation to continue to waive your right.

      Even if the creator does create and distribute, there is still no moral nor ethical obligation, because the creator is not being deprived of anything tangible, but only "might haves", and "could haves", and such.

    14. Re:Get it in both forms by sheepweevil · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Out of print materials should be out of copyright anyway. Publishers stop selling a book because they don't expect to make a profit selling it anymore. Why should a company retain rights over a work they have abandoned by not printing?

    15. Re:Get it in both forms by adminstring · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Good point. Another thing you could do along those lines would be to buy the physical book and then give it to someone else who would like to read it, but who wouldn't have bought it for themselves because they don't have the money for it. This results in a sale for the book store, a free book they wouldn't have been able to obtain otherwise for the third party, and a warm fuzzy feeling for you, knowing you've done all this without depriving anyone of any potential sales, reducing the number of existing physical copies of an out-of-print book, or, like you say, being wasteful.

      --
      My truck is like a series of tubes.
    16. Re:Get it in both forms by GlL · · Score: 2, Insightful

      OK, so my questions are:
      Is access to a work of entertainment a right?
      Is there a difference between the right to access non-fictional information and fictional information?
      With the advent of self-publishing via the internet, what methods do you use, or would propose to sift through the dross to find the gold?

      I think this ethical question will become a moot point when the publisher goes out of business in a couple of years.

      --
      I'm a happy pessimist. I expect and prepare for the worst, when it doesn't happen I am pleasantly surprised.
    17. Re:Get it in both forms by arkhan_jg · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Copyright is an infringement on my right to free speech. Sharing knowledge does not diminish the original holder any more than lighting your taper from mine takes away my light. The public supposedly give up their free speech right in a limited and specific way for a limited time for the greater good. A large and healthy public domain of knowledge and culture being good for the public to build on, copyright is specifically designed to enlarge it by granting a temporary monopoly to authors so they could be encouraged by payment for their work. After a short period, the copyright lapses, the public domain is enhanced, and authors have to go on creating new works for more money.

      The suppression of free speech was not given up to create a new class of fake property barons making all the money as the middlemen. Copyright was not supposed to be effectively permanent, the whole point was to improve the public domain, not bury it!

      Copyright was a bargain between a creator and the public. Now it's an ever-extending new property right that benefits neither. I do not believe copyright in its current form to be an ethical restriction of free speech any longer, so I feel no ethical duty to respect it.

      --
      Remember kids, it's all fun and games until someone commits wholesale galactic genocide.
    18. Re:Get it in both forms by scientus · · Score: 2, Informative

      have you ever heard of Hollywood accounting?

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holywood_accounting

      the creators often never get paid

    19. Re:Get it in both forms by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If they want money in their bank account, they can print their own. That's the fashionable thing to do these days. If they want food, they should secure that before they sit down to write.

      I'm a computer programmer. My girlfriend is a painter and artist. We are both musicians. We are the people these copyright rules are intended to promote. And we don't want them, and we don't need them, and we think we'd be better off without them. So, if the guy can't put food on his table without copyright, perhaps it's because he's fucking doing it wrong.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    20. Re:Get it in both forms by williamhb · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Copyright was a bargain between a creator and the public. Now it's an ever-extending new property right that benefits neither. I do not believe copyright in its current form to be an ethical restriction of free speech any longer, so I feel no ethical duty to respect it.

      Then take it up with your MP or Representative. In a democratic society, you do not get to choose which laws you feel like respecting today. (A conservationist down the road from you might be very utilitarian about your carbon footprint, and feel "no ethical duty" to refrain from bludgeoning you to death with a meat-axe... you probably don't want him rationalising which laws he should be excused from either.)

  2. The *real* "right thing". by Timothy+Brownawell · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Fix the stupid laws that make this kind of thing ever come up. But this is rather impractical and takes forever, so in the meantime just do whatever.

  3. If you can't buy it, don't... by SoapBox17 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Gen Y here, I think if you can't buy it new at all, then there is no reason not to read a "questionable" e-version. If you can buy it, even if you can't buy an e-version, then I say you should pay for a legit copy, but then you can read the e-version.

    1. Re:If you can't buy it, don't... by Joce640k · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Mod parent up.

      Don't feel bad about pirating anything which has no legal way to get hold of a copy or where you know the author won't be fairly compensated by the distributor.

      If you can figure out a way to send the author some money then do so. If not, forget it...

      --
      No sig today...
  4. What's the difference here? by i_ate_god · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't understand here.

    You're questioning the morality over paying Amazon to deliver an out of print book in paper form versus paying nothing for the same book in ebook format?

    You do realize in both ways, the creator gets nothing. So where exactly is the problem?

    --
    I'm god, but it's a bit of a drag really...
    1. Re:What's the difference here? by Timothy+Brownawell · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You do realize in both ways, the creator gets nothing. So where exactly is the problem?

      Our (counterproductive) intellectual monopoly laws make one way illegal, which has apparently been confused with making it unethical/immoral.

    2. Re:What's the difference here? by vux984 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You do realize in both ways, the creator gets nothing. So where exactly is the problem?

      1) You do realize that when you buy a used book, you are still very much supporting the new book market that paid the creator.

      2) Why is it only the creator of the book who matters? Do you think the reseller of used out of print books deserves to starve?

      3) Just because a book is out of print that doesn't make it ok to make copies. That ensures it STAYS out of print, which again, utimately deprives the creator. It might be ok to make copies of a book where the owners have no interest or intention to ever reprint it... but the mere fact that its currently out of print doesn't mean its been abandoned by the creator.

    3. Re:What's the difference here? by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Keeping it out of print may also be the desire of the creator or of their estate. Look into the on-line publications of the secret Scientology writings of L. Ron Hubbard, or look at the fascinating material over at www.wikileaks.org. Much of that is material the original authors or current owners absolutely do not want available for general information, much less duplication. And this policy goes right back to the beginnings of copyright law and the Catholic unhappiness with Bibles being printed in English.

      It is fascinating history, and reveals the roots of copyright in the _prevention_ of publication to keep material secret, not in the assistance to public education and welfare offered as a reason for copyright and patent laws.

    4. Re:What's the difference here? by Hemogoblin · · Score: 3, Informative

      Well it's not quite as black and white as you make it out to be. There's a little wrinkle I'd like to point out.

      First, some definitions. A "secondary market" is when people can sell assets to each other after the original creator has sold them. For example, a collectors bookstore selling a used book, or EB selling a used video game. The existance of a secondary market increases the "liquidity" of the asset, in that you're able to resell your asset quickly/easily for a fair price. This creates value for the asset holder.

      In other words, a functioning used book market increases the value for all book holders. By getting rid of the secondary market, the value is destroyed for potential new-book buyers. They're still paying the same amount for a new book, but they won't have the option of receiving a salvage value when they're sick of the book. One person's actions can't get rid of the secondary market on their own of course, but if everyone did it... tragedy of the commons.

      That said, in the provided example, I'd probably go for the ebook. Just consider the above when talking about used books in general.

      Quick tangent: this is why I get pissed off at the videogame publisher group the ESA (EA, Ubisoft, etc) with their DRM and lawsuits. They're trying to kill off both trading and the selling of used games. They are reducing the value of their product by depriving me of a secondary market, while still increasing their prices every year. Of course they have an incentive to remove the secondary market; they want to increase the primary market to make money for themselves. Jerks.

    5. Re:What's the difference here? by maxume · · Score: 3, Informative

      You are talking about dissemination, not publication. Copyright encourages publication by giving the rights holder influence over dissemination.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    6. Re:What's the difference here? by Waccoon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, from a moral standpoint, if a product isn't being made anymore but somebody has it in stock, I think it would be wrong to consider the product abandonware. Stores keep things in stock for a reason. I don't consider it terribly wrong to pirate something where there's no royalties to be paid, but still, arguing that it is moral isn't quite so easy. I appreciate people thinking about the artists first, but there's more to business than just content creation. Like them or not, the distributors have a place, unless you want to mail-order everything from the artist, which is hardly profitable for him/her.

      It's different when only collectors have it in stock. Of the few things I got off Napster back in the day were the works of Marek i Vacek. I could not find any retailers with new-old-stock records or CDs of their works anywhere, and my original records were destroyed in a flood. When new CDs suddenly popped up out of nowhere a few years ago, of course I bought the official merchandise (specifically, things I didn't already have in my original collection).

    7. Re:What's the difference here? by vux984 · · Score: 2, Informative

      How many books have gone out of print in the last 50 years in the United States? How many were later brought back into print because of a resurgence in demand?

      Practically all of them. Very Very Very few books are continually being printed.

      The moment a book is finished its print run, and the publisher has unloaded all its copies the book is effectively out of print. (ie if you walk into your book store, and their supplier is out, they can't get it for you. It might be a couple more years before its actually 'hard to find'. At which point it may or may not be re-printed, or it may be a few years before its reprinted.

      But for an example of a book that I personally know went out of print, and we later re-printed? Sure...

      The "Warlock of Firetop Mountain" (Book 1 of the fighting-fantasy' series)

      This book was originally published in 1982 by Puffin, it enjoyed multiple reprints in Canada, Britain, the US and Australia as the 'fighting fantasy' series proved popular, but the series was out-of-print by the mid 90's. It was reprinted in 2002 by 'Wizard Books' and that edition is also now out of print, and only available in the 2ndary markets. It was reprinted again in 2007 as a 25th Anniversayr Edition in hard-cover, which is again has sold out, and copies of that printing are only available on the 2ndary market.

      So, at the moment, its out of print, again.

      Now that's just one title. There were 59 books published as part of the original series (with a 60th book written, but not published, and a few spinoff books, and one spinoff series of 5 books.)

      Of these, only 28 have been reprinted since 2002 'reboot' of the series (including 'book 60' which was never actually printed with the original series.) So, for example, in 2001 the ENTIRE series was out of print, and most of the books hadn't been printed in over 10 years. It was impossible to find outside of places like ebay. By 2007 almost half the series had been re-issued.

      Seriously... this is hardly an unusual situation. A lot of books I have have been in and out of print multiple times over the last 50 years. Stuff by Philip K. Dick... stuff by Clarke, by Asimov, by Bester...

      You only need to look for a few minutes to find this to be true.

    8. Re:What's the difference here? by spintriae · · Score: 3, Insightful

      When you buy a new book, it's not as if the author prints it out at his home and hand delivers it to yours. Many others put their resources into making the book available. So the question becomes more complicated than "is the author being compensated?" You should think about the publishers, printers, deliverers, retailers, etc. If you don't think any of them deserve your money, then by all means, download the pirated ebook. As a college student, I personally don't mind seeing used book stores stay in business.

    9. Re:What's the difference here? by sjames · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I understand what you're saying, but other than collectors of rare works (necessarily already out of print), I can't think of any person who actually considers resale value when they buy a book. The popularity of paperbacks (which have nearly no resale value) bears that out.

    10. Re:What's the difference here? by countach · · Score: 5, Interesting

      1) Copyright laws are not there to protect the "book market" as some kind of ephemeral whole. They are to protect creators of works.

      2) Copyright laws are not there to protect used book sellers.

      3) True, but the ultimate aim of copyright is to encourage production and distribution of creative works. When the owner lets them go out of print they are abusing the system.

    11. Re:What's the difference here? by nine-times · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I think you're close to something here, but not quite there. When you buy a used book, there's not a clear way in which you're supporting the new book, and supporting the copyright holder of that original book is even more indirect.

      In response to issue #2, no one is saying that used book resellers deserve to starve, but they really aren't the issue. Used book resellers don't own the copyright to the books they're selling, so when you copy those books, those resellers aren't being wronged morally/ethically/legally. Even if their business model becomes obsolete, that's not really my problem to solve. You know, the whole thing about buggy-whip makers...

      Even point #3, which seems the most sensible to me, doesn't quite hold up. There are a variety of reasons that things go out of print, and it's not clear how to get them back in print. Again, you might have something, but it's pretty unclear, indirect, and uncertain.

      I guess what I'm saying is, I would agree with you that the situation it more complicated than whether the original creator gets directly compensated. At the same time, I feel like your arguments might be a little too complicated, a little too much of a stretch.

      I think part of the problem is that people are feeling like businesses aren't really providing the things they want. Lots of people think it's all about "free". The ebook is free, so greedy people will just get it. But often it's about availability and a sense of fairness, and people feeling like they don't want to have to search around for rare out of print books in order to read something, only for the purpose of propping up a secondary market.

      I think if you want to make an argument here, the only real angle I can see is that, if you destroy the secondary market for a book, you're also diminishing the value of new books (i.e. if I can't resell my books, then the price I'm willing to pay for new books is less). However, that issue is complicated by the fact that the book is out of print. lessening the market for out of print books isn't going to retroactively decrease the price of the book when it was new, taking money out of the pocket of the author.

      You could argue that declaring "open season" on all out of print books makes it less likely for people to buy new books, because if the books goes out of print then its value drops. But that seems to assume that speculative book collectors who buy books new, hoping they'll go out of print and become rare, are a significant part of the book-buying market. If that were the case, these books probably wouldn't go out of print, since there'd be such high demand.

    12. Re:What's the difference here? by mysidia · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Our (counterproductive) intellectual monopoly laws make one way illegal, which has apparently been confused with making it unethical/immoral.

      We (in the US at least) live in a society ruled by a government whose foundation is rule of law, made for us by our elected representatives.

      It is our duty as citizens to follow the laws, to follow the moral contract made by our ancestors who founded the country and the sovereign people among which we live now: to which we are all therefore bound (as individuals), and it is unethical to abandon our duties, or violate rules we agree to follow without very good reasons.

      There are some situations where a law may be so unjust as that it is not unethical to break or go against it in some way.

      The question one might wish to debate: is this really such a situation?

    13. Re:What's the difference here? by dank+zappingly · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Meant to link the article in the above post: An article about a guy who republished out-of-print cocktail books. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/30/dining/30cocktail.html

    14. Re:What's the difference here? by jc42 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      ... but what about medical textbooks where they wouldn't normally be available or affordable?

      Funny thing; about 5 years ago I was working on a software project in which we were trying to develop portable wireless access to various medical reference texts and databases, primarily using wireless "smart phones" as the hardware. The main thing that killed the project was that we developers needed access to the text for testing. My part in the project was writing decoding software that could understand the texts' formats and convert them to usable databases. But most of this work couldn't be tested, because we couldn't get access to the medical texts. The printers would only sell them to people with official medical credentials, and as software developers, we didn't qualify. The companies lawyers couldn't find a way to break this lockout, so eventually we had to give up. A number of doctors, mostly EMTs, didn't get the wireless access that we'd told them we could build.

      This was a good lesson to all of us in what copyright is really about. The publishers and authors knew quite well what they were doing when they refused to even sell or lease their data to us. They made it quite clear that they understood what we were trying to do, and they weren't going to allow it.

      It's, uh, interesting to see the concept of ethics tied into this.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    15. Re:What's the difference here? by Antlerbot · · Score: 2

      Amen to that. Can we get a Slashdot story on the ridiculous cost of textbooks these days?

    16. Re:What's the difference here? by bigjarom · · Score: 2, Funny

      It is our duty as citizens to follow the laws, to follow the moral contract made by our ancestors who founded the country and the sovereign people among which we live now

      You've apparently had too much USA Kool-Aid.

  5. Gutenberg project by pablodiazgutierrez · · Score: 3, Informative

    Given the life length of copyright in the US (thanks, Mickey Mouse!), the kind of book you describe is likely to be found at the Project Gutenberg archives.

  6. Yours is a loaded question. by stephanruby · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yours is a loaded question. I may be do the same thing as you, but not for the same reasons. If I want to sample an ebook, or just use it for reference, I'll download it for sure (I'll either pay for it, or barring that option I'll find it some place else). On the other hand, if I want to read a book in its entirety, I'll get a dead-tree version (new, used, or from the library, it doesn't really matter, I don't want to read a book in its entirety from a screen). I'm 33 years old, if that makes any difference.

  7. Well. by PieSquared · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As a terminally broke college student, I don't see a serious ethical difference between "taking it out of the library, scanning a copy for personal use, and deleting it when I have to return the book, repeat every time I want to read the book" and "pirating it"... except that of course the first is far more work. Except that if nobody is selling the ebook legally, then I can't be said to be "stealing" that work *from* anyone.

    I mean, you can make a pretty good argument that the work involved in making a digital readable copy of the book with nice type-setting and such means you're stealing an ebook even if you could get the book from the library (obviously it's worth *something* to you or you'd just go to the library). But when you're reading an OCR'd book full of misspelled or incorrect words with erratic formatting who's scanning someone knowingly donated to the public, and there's no "legal" version available you just can't really make that case. Especially since the book is out of print and most publishers probably consider re-selling books just as unethical as pirating an ebook.

    So yea, I'd pirate it. This is assuming I had an ebook reader, I could never make it all the way through a book on my laptop. As things stands I'd just go to the library.

    --
    Does a line appended to your comment give your post meaning in and of itself, or only in relation to those without?
  8. Gen X says.. by kiwioddBall · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There is nothing more pleasurable than searching for old books in a second hand book store. Go and buy the printed version somewhere. Its environmentally friendly recycling of old books, and you can pass it on to someone afterwards, or back to the second hand book store. Printed books are a beautiful thing, and it makes me happy to think how many people have got pleasure from a single copy of a book. eBook readers are ugly things and use up heaps of resources - electronics, manufacture, batteries etc. Tradition is cool.

    1. Re:Gen X says.. by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 4, Funny

      There is nothing more pleasurable than searching for old books in a second hand book store.

      Um, Sex.

      --
      You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
    2. Re:Gen X says.. by StreetStealth · · Score: 3, Funny

      In a second hand book store?!

      That's some fetish.

      --
      Your mind is clear / The things that you fear / Will fade with how much you / Believe what you hear
  9. I remember life prior to the Internet by nullhero · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If a book is out of print and the publisher isn't going to ever publish it my feeling is that it is perfectly ethical to use the pirated eText that is found on the Internet. Legal? More than likely it is not. Is that right? More than likely it is not. You would think that in copyright law that if a publisher chooses to no longer publish a book than shouldn't that book fall into the Public Domain, assuming of course that the original author is dead, or has given up their copyright or copylefted it. I'm a 40 year old GenXer - who is currently a college student.

    --
    Save Pangaea!! Stop Continental Drift!!
  10. Get a copy from the library by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 3, Informative

    is what I used to do when I was a student and had limited finances.

    I wouldn't download a pirated e-book - I hate the format to begin with, and despite the fact the used book sale doesn't make it back to the original author directly demand for used copies is used by publishers to determine when to reprint a book.

  11. Re:Best use of the Kindle by Darkness404 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Seriously. Who cares? This is about an ethical question, which most of us care about rather than "is this illegal". Like most sane people they want the money they spend on the book to go to the author and to read it in an electronic format.

    --
    Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
  12. ethics and legality by speedtux · · Score: 3, Informative

    Ethically, I see no problem with copying it in whatever form you like if it's out of print or if it's older than 10-15 years. I consider copyrights lasting longer than 15 years and copyrights on out-of-print books to be unethical, but that's just me.

    Legally, you are certainly completely in the clear if you buy a used copy and read it in paper form. You're probably in the clear if you scan the used copy yourself.

    It's not clear what happens if you download a copy. The legality of that may depend more of who you copy from and where you live than whether you own a copy. Another possibility is that you borrow a copy and scan it yourself, or that you buy a copy, scan it, and then sell it again. I don't think any of those have been tested in court, and the legal situation may not agree with intuition.

  13. Ask the author, not Slashdot by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    My book is currently in print and available in both electronic and dead-tree versions, so this doesn't apply to me directly, but if it goes out of print I would have no problems putting the PDF version online. Quite a few authors have done the same thing - put the PDF copy online when the publisher has decided to stop distributing. Typically, all rights revert to the author at this point, so they can do whatever they want with it. If they think there's still a market for it, they can keep trying to sell it, or just put it online for anyone to read if that's too much effort for the return.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    1. Re:Ask the author, not Slashdot by scradock · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes, from the author's point of view that is fair and reasonable. The problems arise when "rights" are held after an author is dead, or by persons/companies who are not the author. If an author does NOT recover the copyright when the publisher decides to stop making the book available for sale the author has lost all hope of any further rewards. Copyright law should surely make it obligatory for a copyright-holder to release the copyright, either to the author or to the public, when it no longer wishes to publish the work. In that way copyright law (a public policy) would protect the interest of the public, which has protected the rights of the copyright holder, once it no longer wishes to make the work available itself.

  14. Out of print + refusal to make available by Digital+Vomit · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Suppose there is a book that you want to read on your ebook reader, but it is out of print and the publisher has refused to make it available as an ebook.

    In cases like this, the correct thing to do would have the book in question fall immediately into the Public Domain.

    That is, if we had IP laws that were set up to promote the progress of the useful arts as opposed to being set up in a way so as to make a few wealthy companies even wealthier.

    --
    Modern copyright is theft of culture from everyone and it retards the progress of the useful arts and sciences.
  15. Re:The *real* "right thing". Irrelevant pont. by meburke · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The "copyright police" are irrelevant to the question. The question is, "What's the right thing to do?" For an out-of-print book, it seems like the right thing to do is buy it wherever possible, and make your own e-book as backup. If you can't buy it, there is no ethical problem with acquiring the book in what ever form you can find it. There is, however, an ethical question about whether you should enable the persons who created a "pirated" e-book to enjoy financial or psychological rewards for their un-ethical behavior. How about contacting the copyright holder and getting permission to create/publish the e-book ethically?

    --
    "The mind works quicker than you think!"
  16. Re:A non slashdot answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The right thing to do is to buy it in whatever medium is available, or don't use it at all. Whether the author is going to recieve royalties is irrelevant.

    If all they offer the Model-T is in black, then you get to liking black or you do without. You don't steal one because it's not your "preferred method".

    Actually, you would buy the Model-T, drive to the original designer, complain loudly that Ford can't design a spitoon let alone a car, take a dump in a box, wrap the box in a gift-wrap bow, write a nasty letter about not offering other colors besides black, and send it off to Ford. Then take the Model-T and paint it any goddamn color you like.

    Your corporate facism is not appreciated. I really don't get a rat's ass what color it is, either you supply me with the product I want, or I will go to a competitor. If there is no competitor, then there is something terribly wrong isn't there?

  17. The Constitution says ... by PPH · · Score: 4, Insightful

    To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries

    IANAL, but it seems to me that the key condition here is: 'To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts'. Once the copyright or patent holder ceases publishing, licensing, or producing the work or invention, progress has ceased. And so should the term of this right.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  18. Ask. by gfxguy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This is one of those cases you might just contact the author and ask.

    --
    Stupid sexy Flanders.
  19. Re:go for the etext. by DavidTC · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There's a valid claim in that purchasing a used book does benefit the publisher...it reduces the copies of used books out there, and makes it more likely they will sell a new one.

    You may think that's rather indirect, but not really. They sold every single copy of their book out there exactly once. Any behavior that results in more copies of their book out there is beneficial to them, and someone buying a used copy means someone else didn't buy that used copy and might buy a new copy. (Or might buy a different used copy, which might result in someone else buying a new one, and so on...)

    In the end, every copy of a used book you buy, or even every copy of a new book you bought and then didn't resell, is, statistically, about 4/5ths of a new book sale eventually made somewhere out there when someone would have purchased that copy and instead purchased another one. Losing only the 1/5th extra when people bought a different book instead, because that one wasn't handy or they never even heard of it.

    Of course, none of this applies if the work is out of print. I have no moral qualms about making any amount of copies of out-of-print works I want. I can't possibly increase their sales by buying used copies if they aren't selling it. All I'm going to do it make it harder for other people to get a hold of it.

    No, I don't care that demand for an out-of-print product could, in theory, cause it to come back in print. It is not my fucking job to fix the stupidity of companies not having actually popular books in print.

    --
    If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
  20. Re:well..duh. by mysticgoat · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Boomer: I agree.

    Copyright law got royally screwed up a few years ago. Now its principle purpose is to protect corporations from loss of perpetual profits, which is damn close to the antithesis of its original purpose (protecting the actual creator of a work from being screwed by marketeers).

    Until there is a US Congress with the guts and brains to rewrite copyright law in keeping with its original intent, there is a strong Thoreau-ish argument that violating this law, in those manifold instances where it provides no benefit at all to any individual, is an expression of patriotic civil disobedience.

    Go make your e-copy for yourself, or acquire one through whatever means you can find, knowing that you are not harming any individual. If you share that e-copy with friends or anonymous acquaintances, you are going a step further in limiting, to some small degree, the culture of corporate greed that has been allowed to wreck the USA economy in eight short years.

  21. Re:The answer to ethical questions.... by Locklin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    To use the oft abused car metaphor: If someone doesn't make a car I want in the color I want, I'm not allowed to steal it just so I can paint it the color I want.

    What? that doesn't even make sense. I guess I'm hurting those poor used book stores as well, since I use the library. People don't "deserve" to earn money if they don't provide a service people want; those stores will exist as long as people want to buy used books, and no longer.

    --
    "Knowledge is the only instrument of production that is not subject to diminishing returns" -Journal of Political Econom
  22. Re:Out of Print Means Out of the Money by Darkness404 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    so do e-books actually go out of print?

    Depends. If the DRM isn't cracked soon enough eventually the DRM servers will go dead and the book ends up effectively going out of print. If the DRM is cracked or the book is DRM free then no because there can easily be new copies made. Now, these new copies might not exactly give the author any profit but it will effectively keep the book in print.

    --
    Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
  23. Re:Best use of the Kindle by stonedcat · · Score: 5, Funny

    you DO know that this violates copyright law, right ?
    you have no right to reproduce a copyrighted work without reproduction rights from the author.

    You should work for the MPAA or RIAA.
    Seriously mate, they would love you.

    --
    You can't take the sky from me.
  24. Why not just contact the author directly? by I_want_information · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A few years ago I was faced with a similar dilemma: a book on computer game creation, one which I wished for my students to read, was regrettably out of print.

    I found a PDF of it online, being used at another university. I contacted the professor and asked how she had come by it; she gave me the author's email address.

    I contacted the author, explained what I wanted to do, and he gave me authorization to freely use the PDF.

  25. Re:The *real* "right thing". Irrelevant pont. by Timothy+Brownawell · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How about contacting the copyright holder and getting permission to create/publish the e-book ethically?

    Copyright is an entirely unnatural "right" to restrict others' freedom. I say it has no basis in rationality (it could have, except that it doesn't seem to have actually helped to promote any sort of useful progress), so the only link from copyright to ethics is the rather tenuous link between legality and ethics.

  26. A Compromise by DavidD_CA · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There are other benefits to the author for having a dead-tree book purchased, even when out-of-print.

    That sale helps improve the overall rating for the book, and all other books the author has written. So, your purchase may actually trigger the purchase of other sales from the same author. This works electronically on sites like Amazon, and in the real world when statistics are tabulated in all sorts of ways.

    An out-of-print book might also be sold directly by the author or publisher, or just some guy who doesn't want the book any more. Either way that purchase is helping other people, even if it helps Jeff Bezos's gigantic empire and the thousands of people who work for him.

    I think the ethical thing to do is purchase the dead-tree book and then download the ilegal version so that you can enjoy it in the medium you intended. This might not be legal, but it's ethical in my eyes so long as you don't pass it on. If you later sold the dead-tree book, you could then delete the electronic version.

    --
    -David
  27. Stupidly long copyright terms by jesterzog · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Fix the stupid laws that make this kind of thing ever come up.

    I agree. Strictly speaking I think copyright is a good idea. It gives the creator (directly or by proxy) an incentive to create by allowing them to treat their creations as if they're physical property. Part of this power should allow them to control how many copies of their creative work are available during the time that they hold their monopoly. It could be that it's more valuable to them if they restrict the available copies, such as by declaring that only 2000 will ever be made available, and selling them at a high price. By deciding to infringe the copyright and make additional copies illegally before the copyright term has expired, it diminishes the ability of the author to use copyright law to its full potential.

    The problem here, though, is that copyright is supposed to expire so that everyone finally gets the benefit of newly created works, yet it effectively never does! "Temporary" monopolistic rights to information should not be something that grandchildren or great grandchildren get to inherit.

    If copyright terms were pulled back to something sane, such as 10 or 15 years, and required the author to demonstrate an active interest in maintaining the copyright (rather than anonymously disappearing and being unable to be tracked down), there would be far less incentive to make illegal copies because everyone would know they could simply wait. Members of society who saw the work being created and who supported the law that provided the incentive for it to be created would actually stand a chance of being around to fully benefit from it when it finally entered the public domain. Obviously it would reduce the ability for a creator (or content owner) to make extra money, but at least the whole thing would be above board and clear from the start. I'm sure that pulling back copyright terms in this day and age would spark complaints from some creators and it might even cause a few publishers to go out of business, but we'd actually have an opportunity to see if less content was actually being created, and I don't personally think there would be much change. As with everything else, the industry would adapt to the new conditions, and people would still figure out ways to keep making money. Even works that are well out of copyright still make money for publishing companies today.

    As copyright terms are stupidly long today and showing no signs of being prevented from being extended further, I don't personally have an ethical problem with infringing copyright on certain works. This is especially the case if the works are no longer in print, and have been out of print for a reasonable length of time (at least several years), and which the creator or owner is unavailable for giving or denying permission to make more. (In cases where publishers own rights to massive amounts of IP, I also don't have much respect for standard template "no you can't because we can't be bothered with the admin" answers, either.

  28. Re:Best use of the Kindle by wisty · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Nobody can say you broke the law unless you have a conviction, so it's only illegal if you get caught. Lawyers may disagree, but if you need to speak to a lawyer you have gotten caught, thus my argument doesn't apply.

    Is it unethical to steal a second hand book? The initial cost of a book should account for the possibility of selling it second hand, so you are stealing from the original book buyers. That's not a huge deal. Also, the dynamics of the book industry relies on second hand book sales being a little cumbersome, so you are messing with their well balanced system. Maybe their system needs to change though.

    OT: nice sig. Slashdot *should* have a -1 disagree, that is secretly ignored.

  29. Re:Best use of the Kindle by larry+bagina · · Score: 5, Insightful

    you DO know that this violates copyright law, right ?
    you have no right to reproduce a copyrighted work without reproduction rights from the author.

    format shifting for personal use is legal.

    --
    Do you even lift?

    These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

  30. Re:The *real* "right thing". Irrelevant pont. by Darkness404 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There is, however, an ethical question about whether you should enable the persons who created a "pirated" e-book to enjoy financial or psychological rewards for their un-ethical behavior.

    Oh yes, because having them lose bandwidth is going to be financial and psychological rewards for it! I mean, the average /.er isn't going to click on ads and most have some sort of ad-blocking enabled and it isn't like I pay TPB $.99 for every song and e-book I pirate. So I don't see how that is a benefit to the pirates.

    --
    Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
  31. Re:Best use of the Kindle by Miseph · · Score: 5, Informative

    You do know that it doesn't, right?

    If he's not distributing the book or otherwise spreading around these copies, he is allowed under current fair use law to format shift his book in order to better suit his needs.

    This is why the *AA types can't actually sue anyone who rips their music/dvd/whatever collection to a digital format, so long as there is no distribution (or intent to do so later) there is no legal recourse against someone who alters a work for their own personal convenience.

    Nice try, though.

    --
    Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
  32. Re:Best use of the Kindle by lysergic.acid · · Score: 5, Insightful

    exactly. we need to shape our laws to conform with our sense of ethics, not shape our ethics to conform with our existing laws.

    i think this is a very interesting moral dilemma.

    since the book is out of print, there's really no way of paying the author/publisher for a copy of the text. even if you buy a book used, the copyright holder doesn't see a cent of it. it's not like if the used book store sells out of their stock they'll order another shipment of that text from the publisher.

    legally you'd be violating the author or publisher's copyright. but your decision won't make a difference to anyone except you and the used book salesman if you decide to buy a used copy. however, there's no ethical obligation for you to purchase your copy of the text from the used books salesman on Amazon.

    personally, i don't see anything wrong with downloading a pirated copy in this situation, just seed the torrent until you have at least a 1:1 ratio. you're not hurting anyone financially or otherwise. but if you really want to support the author, you can look up his address or PO Box and mail him some money.

  33. Fast-foward to the reading part please ... by icepick72 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I have a friend who always tries to do the right thing and it drives everybody ape-shit crazy because he stresses over right and wrong so much that he can't function in life and doesn't do anything. At 36 he can't move out from his parent's home, change jobs, etc. etc. All he can do is turn everything into an ethical and moral problem because that's where's he's happiest.... now about that eBook thing ... just read the damn thing however you want and choose a method that lets you do it.

  34. Re:Best use of the Kindle by dgatwood · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Ultimately, yes, I think that's what the courts should (and probably eventually will) end up concluding. It may take several iterations for them to see reason in this regard, but it is pretty clear, at least in my mind, that downloading content in electronic form that you legally own a copy of in another form is no different than doing the format shifting yourself, and thus is protected fair use even if downloading ends up causing you to push out copies of fragments of the content as a side effect of the protocol used (seeding). Creating the torrent, on the other hand....

    --

    Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  35. Re:The *real* "right thing". Irrelevant pont. by mysidia · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How about contacting the copyright holder and getting permission to create/publish the e-book ethically?

    The more rational thing would be for the copyright owner to have to explain why they weren't printing the book and still wished to exercise their copyright.

    Upon a proper challenge, the copyright should expire after a few years if they are failing to actually print or offer the copyrighted material for sale.

    The laws don't define ethics, and they are irrational,they provide undue favor to authors, and undue discrimination against the consumers.

  36. Library? by jchawk · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Gen-Y - What if you went to the library and borrowed the book, and then downloaded the e-version. Once you finish reading the book delete the e-book and return the library book?

    I don't see an ethical problem here, not sure about the legal ramifications. Knowing copyright holders it's probably completely illegal.

  37. Re:The *real* "right thing". Irrelevant pont. by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 2, Interesting

    For an out-of-print book, it seems like the right thing to do is buy it wherever possible

    Why? A book that's out of print is only available on the secondary market (unless it just went out of print yesterday or something); the author gets nothing when I buy a used copy. The author gets infinitely more out of the deal if I copy the e-book and send him or her a crisp one dollar bill in the mail, than if I spend five dollars on a used copy of the dead trees version.

    --
    Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
    You cannot wash away blood with blood
  38. Re:Best use of the Kindle by nabsltd · · Score: 3, Interesting

    You can't photocopy books, whether or not it's for private use.

    Yes, you can photocopy books, even in their entirety, if you own the original.

    What you can't do is distribute the copies.

    This still leaves grey areas, as making copies of a book and having all the people in your immediate household reading copies at the same time may or may not be "distribution".

  39. Re:Best use of the Kindle by FilterMapReduce · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What you say is completely reasonable, ought to be true, used to be true in the U.S., and still partly is, but unfortunately the DMCA screwed it up. Circumventing a technological measure meant to prevent copying is now illegal in and of itself, even if your use of the copy is completely innocent under copyright law. Commercial DVDs and most proprietary ebook formats have encryption measures that invoke this legal "protection". (I am not a lawyer and this may be an oversimplification. The DMCA does provide some exemptions to the anti-circumvention clauses but overall the consumer seems to get screwed over pretty well.)

  40. Re:go for the etext. by DavidTC · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yes, but those people have the ability to be hurt, in a much much much larger way, at random by the book publisher, who can print ten times as many copies as currently exist.

    People don't have the 'right' to have their copies of out-of-print books be expensive. It is an artificial scarcity which can completely and instantly be destroyed by the actions of a single company on a whim.

    And, in fact, their actions of purchasing the book make it slightly more likely there will be another printing thus totally destroying their 'investment'.

    Slightly more relevantly, this is a moot point, as very few books actually increase in price because they are out of print. They get incredibly hard to find, but still generally sell for less then their price when new.

    Normal out-of-print books do not have a demand/supply imbalance...when they were in print, approximately the correct amount got printed in total. Unless the demand shot up (And they were never brought back into print for some reason), it is extremely unlikely they'd be valued more than they were originally. (Certain versions of the printing might get valued more, like first editions or limited collector runs, but that's not the same thing, and there's no way a ebook could reduce the value of one of those.)

    --
    If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
  41. Ethically? by Dan541 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Piracy would have to be an unethical practice to begin with.

    --
    An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
  42. My very simple philosophy on piracy: by Gondola · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If you didn't pirate it, would you buy it?

    If you answered no, it's all right to pirate it.

    If you can't buy it even if you wanted to, that's the same thing.

    No harm, no foul.

  43. Re:Best use of the Kindle by honkycat · · Score: 4, Insightful

    By downloading the pirated ebook, aren't you reducing the general market for the used book? So even though you're not necessarily going to purchase a specific copy from a specific used bookseller, in principle you're weakening his market. Why is that any less wrong than diluting the original creator/publisher's market by illegally duplicating a book that's still in print? Used bookstores are extremely valuable parts of our commercial landscape, IMO.

    (not judging/flaming you, I agree: it's an interesting moral dilemma).

  44. Re:Pirate the book by Dan541 · · Score: 5, Funny

    The ethical thing to do would be to keep seeding.

    --
    An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
  45. Re:Best use of the Kindle by FLEB · · Score: 4, Funny

    so you are stealing from the original book buyers. That's not a huge deal.

    Like hell. You come to my yard sale and try that, you leave missing an arm.*

    * This message sponsored by the International Association of Internet Tough Guys. All talk, no Action: ITG.

    --
    Information wants to be free.
    Entertainment wants to be paid.
    You just want to be cheap.
  46. Re:Best use of the Kindle by FLEB · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I think this position misses one critical question: What is copyright a right to?

    Those wanting copyrights dependent upon market availability seem to take the stance that copyright is a right to profit, especially monetary profit on the open market. While this is certainly an arguable point, it's not the be-all end-all.

    This argument falters if copyright is framed, not as a right to monetary profit, but as a basic right to control. Although many creators will use the standard avenues of for-profit publishing, with the same aims of wide dissemination and agreed-upon compensation, there may be edge cases, both known and unknown, where the right of control, currently granted by copyright, is more valuable to the creator than the right to profit.

    A creator may wish to exercise the right to only be publish through certain outlets, or only through publishers with certain standards, either quality or ideological. The public does not, and should not, have immediate right to override the wishes of the creator, simply because the technological means are readily available. In a capitalist society that values individual means fairly gained by individual achievement, the gains of copy-rights should be upheld.

    (Of course, this is not to trample on consumers' first sale rights, fair use rights, or personal use rights such as personal format-shifting. The flip-side of the coin is that when the author releases a copy of a work into the world, that transaction was a legitimate trade of some degree of control for some degree of profit.)

    --
    Information wants to be free.
    Entertainment wants to be paid.
    You just want to be cheap.
  47. Re:Best use of the Kindle by lysergic.acid · · Score: 5, Interesting

    well, is it still the creator/publisher's market if the book is no longer in print? if their book is in print and you chose to pirate rather than buy used, then yes, you are depreciating the market value of the used book, which has a direct influence on the market value & demand of the new book.

    however, if the book is out of print, then the publisher/author have already sold their entire stock of books. the market value of the used books are of no consequence to the copyright holders. they have already made all the money that they can (or are willing to) make on that IP.

    in this case, i think the question would be, whether or not piracy impinges on the rights of non-copyright-holders. in other words, do you have a moral obligation to compensate a used book salesman for enjoying a book that they happen to be selling a used copy of. personally i think the answer is "no."

  48. Re:Best use of the Kindle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    IAAL and i know he is marked as a troll but he is perfectly correct.

    The original post stated that he used a kindle book to print. This is disallowed :

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=200144530

    QUOTE:

    The Kindle Store enables you to download, display and use on your Device a variety of digitized electronic content, such as books, subscriptions to magazines, newspapers, journals and other periodicals, blogs, RSS feeds, and other digital content, as determined by Amazon from time to time (individually and collectively, "Digital Content").

    and

    Use of Digital Content. ... Digital Content will be deemed licensed to you by Amazon under this Agreement unless otherwise expressly provided by Amazon.

    So unless express rights to print and store were provided with the ebook, printing an ebook from a kindle is illegal, even for non commercial personal use.

    In short, no ebooks are sold by amazon, only licensed. You do not have the rights that you think you have.

    ATTENTION: This is a posting on an internet forum and as such cannot be construed as legal advice. Contact an attorney licensed in your state for legal advice. This posting is not confidential and not covered under any form of confidentiality and cannot be construed as forming an attorney-client relationship in any form whatsoever.

  49. Re:Best use of the Kindle by kdemetter · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is a bit of 'if a tree falls , and there is no one around to hear it , does it make a sound'

    In law ,if no-one knows you killed someone , then you didn't.Until someone finds out you did.
    (Innocent until prooven guilty).

  50. Re:Best use of the Kindle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The public does not, and should not, have immediate right to override the wishes of the creator, simply because the technological means are readily available. In a capitalist society that values individual means fairly gained by individual achievement, the gains of copy-rights should be upheld.

    Actually no, the public should have the right to override the wishes of the creator of the copyright. Copyright is granted by the Government and the only reason content creators have copyright is through the support of the public through Government enforcement. Copyright is not a God Given right, it is an artificial construct that is supposed to benefit society in the long run and the copyright holders in the short term. In a truly capitalistic society, copyright wouldn't exist because it is not the free market, it is a Government granted monopoly on your work. Nothing about copyright is free market.

    Copyright is not supposed to be a one sided deal where someone creates a work and profits off of it forever and ever. It is (was?) meant to be a contract between content creators and the public. You profit off of your work and the Government will enforce your copyright through laws/courts in exchange for the work being available to the public sometime in the future. These days copyright holders are not holding up their end of the bargain. As a matter of fact it seems that copyright holders believe that a creation of these should belong to them for ever and that the tax payers should forever guarantee they profit off of it until the end of time. Sounds like a bum rap to me, especially in the case of abandonware/out of print books where the copyright holder still has enforcement rights over something they seem not to have an interest in anymore.

    Judging by your sig you seem cynical about people benefiting from copyrighted works by "being cheap" and "wanting things for free" but it was never free for us. Every day we foot the bill for copyright enforcement and the amount of money gets higher and higher. Look at criminal enforcement of protecting copyrights, that is a lot of salaries to pay to make sure Company X, Y, & Z profit. Perhaps you should look at piracy as a market force rather than "a bunch of cheap fucks" because there will always be the latter but when a whole bunch of society does it, it is time to change your business model, not try to force society to conform to an outdated business model.

  51. Re:The *real* "right thing". Irrelevant pont. by Joe+Jay+Bee · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Because it was created to be sold, and your "information wants to be free, as does entertainment, and anything else I want" bullshit deprives the people who make the stuff that you warez of an income?

    "I don't want to pay, it should have been free in the first place" doesn't cut it as an argument. You could use that for anything to wheedle out of paying for anything - it's yet another shitty argument foisted by pirates so they can justify (to themselves) the fact that they're cheap.

  52. Re:The *real* "right thing". Irrelevant pont. by Kattspya · · Score: 4, Interesting

    That's what I and my 20 friends said when we raped that girl.

  53. Why didn't your company hire a medic? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They would have the right to buy the texts, and then you could have used them as a beta-tester.

  54. Books want to be read by hessian · · Score: 5, Interesting

    As a published author, I would prefer that people read my book than that they pay for it.

    In the long run, this builds me an audience, which may also be monetarily worth more than a one-time payment.

    If the book is not available... pirate it.

    Death metal, a tiny musical genre that thrived from 1985-1995, has many classics out of print. Our solution at the metal site for which I write (the Dark Legions Archive, I'm a blogger) is to make FLACs available of out of print classics.

    The reason is simple: it's better that the artists have a new listener, than that the potential listener is thwarted by the chaos of record publishing.

    Technically, it is against the law. However, from artists, we have heard nothing but encouragement. There are now new generations, new fans and new life for their art. I don't think anyone can reasonably complain about that.