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DNSSEC Advances in gTLDs; Bernstein Intros DNSCurve
coondoggie writes "Seven leading domain name vendors — representing more than 112 million domain names, or 65% of all registered names — have formed an industry coalition to work together to adopt DNSSEC. Members of the DNSSEC Industry Coalition include: VeriSign, which operates the .com and .net registries; NeuStar, which operates the .biz and .us registries; .info operator Afilias Limited; .edu operator EDUCAUSE; and The Public Interest Registry, which operates .org." The gTLD operators are falling in line behind government initiatives, which we discussed last month. In light of these developments, Dan Bernstein's push for DNSCurve might face an uphill slog. Reader data2 writes: "Dan Bernstein, the creator of djbdns and daemontools, has created his own proposal to improve upon the current DNS protocol. He has been opposed to DNSSEC for quite some time, and now he has proposed a concrete alternative, DNSCurve. He has posted a comparison between the two systems. His proposal makes use of elliptic curves, while DNSSEC favors RSA. He uses a curve named Curve25519, which he also developed."
DNSSEC Advances in gTLDs; Bernstein Intros DNSCurve
That was the subject of the last spam e-mail to pass my filter!
go figure...
Perhaps he should start his own separate Internet and be done with it. ;-)
ad 1) DNS is one of the few protocols where conciseness really REALLY matters. DNS attempts to answer requests in one UDP packet to avoid the overhead of establishing a connection. Elliptic curve keys are smaller than RSA keys of the same strength. The choice of 1024bit RSA keys for DNSSEC is a compromise (pardon the pun), which isn't necessary with elliptic curve cryptography.
Bernstein says that RSA-1024 bit is not secure as big botnets (or big companies) can break such keys.
That would defeat the purpose of DNSSEC.
I wonder what this means for SSL certificates...
RSA has a wrapup here:
http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/node.asp?id=2007
Apparently they disagree...
Why is it necessary to use a new one when old ones have been demonstrated to be effective and secure?
He's pushing a new piece of software, not at all a new algorithm. In particular, Old-RSA-style product-of-primes encryption has been deprecated by the NSA for several years now, and shouldn't be used in any new software. Elliptical curve technology is one of the alternatives recommended by the NSA.
Bernstein may *be* an ass, but he's not *talking out of* his ass.
Industry coalitions are great, but this seems to be an attempt to create a new de facto standard controlled by a few large corporate interests
You've just described almost every successful engineering standard. As someone who has served on an international standards committee, let me say: the standard *is* what the vendors who control the market *do*, otherwise it's just a piece of paper. A useful and productive standards committee is formed when the few large corporate interests (who collectively have most of the market share in some space) get together and say "let's all agree to do things the same way".
Otherwise you end up with a meaningless standarded ignored by products that represents 90% of a market, like the early days of the HTML "standard". Wow, that's useful.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Keep in mind that what matters is how the encryption is used. I don't think anyone cares to keep DNS requests private. What matters is keeping them authentic. Signing (and having a way to verify the signature) is of utmost important.
In other words, it doesn't matter that RSA can be broken by large botnets. If it can't be broken as I'm making the request, or before I receive the answer, then it's too late.
Now if somewhere along the way, someone decided that the goal was to keep DNS transactions a complete secret, then that's another issue. I don't see a general need for this level of secrecy.
ECC is not a new crypto algorithm. It has been around since 1985, it is will studied, and it is recommended for use in the US (NIST, NSA Suite B), in the EU (NESSIE project falling under the European Commission), and in Japan (CRYPTREC government project).
Bernstein has created a new curve for use with ECC; one that is better suited to the requirements of this particular application than other existing curves. He claims to have followed the appropriate practices in generating this curve -- that obviously needs to be verified by suitably knowledgeable experts.
The "existing algorithm" is RSA, specifically RSASSA-PKCS1-v1_5. There are more secure signature schemes available for RSA, e.g. RSA-PSS. In addition DNSSEC will use 1024-bit RSA keys as a compromise (to reduce transfer size and computational overhead) -- NIST recommendations are that 1024 bits are too short for any purpose.
DNS forgeries are already having a significant impact - keep your eyes on the security reports.
i-name =twylite [http://public.xdi.org/=twylite], see idcommons.net
No, he is not. He's using an old, well-tested, well-studied algorithm, generally believed among cryptographers to be more secure than RSA.
I'll say this for Dan - he is often quite good at analysis and finding problems. But after watching a huge fight between him and the authors of the delivery status notification format for email, with the result that positions became completely polarized and nobody succeeded in convincing anyone else of the merits of their respective ideas, I decided the best way to deal with him is to listen to his criticisms, evaluate them carefully, and if it makes sense to address them, do so. But attempting to engage in a meaningful discussion with him is a waste of time - he gets angry way too easily and starts throwing all sorts of nasty invective around, and the result is almost always that the interaction spirals straight down the crapper.
But DNSSEC uses all pre-computed signatures for the zone data. So if you can break the RSA key, you can create fake signatures ahead of time and serve bogus DNS data. Your botnet has got all the time in the world to try to break that key...
DNSSec pre-signs all DNS records. In order to "sign" "no such record" responses, it is necessary to sign a list of records that don't exist in a zone. This effective publishes your entire zone as a side effect.
DNSCurve encrypts and authenticates the transaction, like SSL. This has the side effect of not needing to publish the entire zone. Instead of getting the public key from special DNSKEY records, DNSCurve stores it in existing NS records, encoded in the server name.
I would like to use DNSKEY records if available, otherwise use the specially encoded servername. That scheme could also gradually transition to widespread DNSKEY support, since both the encoding and DNSKEY could be used. DNSSEC could even use the encoded servername idea - but the names would be *really* long thanks to the longer RSA keys.
You are mistaken. Go to tinydns.org and read
I did. That isn't the official version of djbdns; it's a fork. Furthermore, note that even the "enhanced" fork fails to support such fundamental necessities as IXFR. You can hobble together some hackish workalike with rsync - assuming you have control over both servers. Good luck getting a registrar or any other free/cheap DNS hosting service to go along with that arrangement.
As always, djbdns is probably OK as long as you don't need any of the (common) features it doesn't support. If you do, it stops looking so clever.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
DNSSec uses hierarchical signature chains (similar to SSL). So, um, they're going to sign our keys out of the goodness of their hearts, right? Oh, they're not? So the real reason that these registrars are running around with giant erections over DNSSec is because it's a whole new revenue stream for them? Makes sense now.
Not that I'm against anyone making a buck, but if there's a decent way to accomplish the same goal without having another set of keys to sign (and having to update ZSKs every freaking month) then I'd be happy to give it a fair shake. It's not like most admins have all sorts of free time to deal with additional overhead.
Another point in favor of DJB - Yes, he's abrasive, but when was the last time tinydns needed to be updated because of a security vulnerability? Now compare with BIND and Windows Server. We can argue his quirks all day long, but dude does have hands down the best record (pun semi-intended) when it comes to DNS security.
Help save the critically endangered Blue Iguana
I recently researched DNSSEC and I was going to implement it in my environment until I read the downfalls:
1) Traffic for the signing of records would increase exponentially because to establish the authenticity you'd have to contact the originating server and do a PKI-like transaction (that's expensive). In it's current form, forcing DNSSEC throughout the world would effectively bring down the root DNS servers as well as many others
2) Because of 1) caching DNS servers would be less useful since you'd have to contact the original for the keys anyway. This also introduces the problem that if all the original DNS are unreachable for whatever reason the whole zone would become unusable whereas now they have been cached.
3) There is an attack vector where by using the no-record responses somebody can obtain the whole zone even if you didn't intend to publish it
The problems with DNS are the same as the problems with SMTP and IPv4:
- The problems were there from the start and the protocol wasn't designed with current threats in mind. Fixing it would effectively break it.
- The only solution is to build up a new system parallel to it and introduce it without anyone noticing
- The usable solutions are only temporary patches that make it more difficult to use become quickly reduced to the above 2 problems
- There are multiple solutions from separate entities with their own agendas. Choosing one over the other has it's own flaws and is sometimes not even feasible.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
DNSSEC focuses on signing dns zones. DNSCurve protects the transport only.
This difference makes DNSSEC maintenance a pain in the ass, and DNSCurve easy.
There are plenty of links in the summary to back this up, just wanted to point it out.
DNSCURVE has been around for some time, now. DJB just does a shitty job of pointing out why it's superior. As I don't have time to sum it up, just harvest the +5 I comments for details.
Also, I would have thought that qmail has a larger impact & coverage than djbdns & daemontools, but oh well ;)
DJB is hard to deal with when, not if, you disagree with him. But he _does_ churn out good stuff.