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Tech Firms Oppose Union Organizing
cedarhillbilly passes along a piece from TheHill.com on the chilly reception that tech firms and lobbying groups are giving to a bill promoting union formation, which has a chance of passing in a more strongly Democratic congress and with a Democratic president. "Up to now, large tech groups have been on the sidelines in what is likely to be one of the roughest fights in Congress next year. A few, however, are preparing to weigh in. That makes other tech lobbyists nervous that, by doing so, the industry could sacrifice relatively good relationships with Democrats and, therefore, jeopardize some of their other legislative priorities."
It's interesting that every single person in the article is against it except for a dnc congressman. The end of the article says he bemoans the lack of union growth. Why would he be concerned about union growth? Why would he be so concerned about union growth that he would try and take steps to lower the bar on organizing groups of people who probably don't even want it? Oh yeah - money. This is why I hate politics. This has nothing to do with serving people it is all about finding revenue streams to fund their next election. Maybe they can get the rest of the country to be like the state of Washington and force people into unions, fire the ones that wont join and rack up plenty of contributions that way.
I was a union member for a number of years. (UFCW) Fortunately it was in a right to work state and it was my choice. And fortunately it was possible to relatively private about joining or not joining. None of this harassment that can come in other environments. Unions are just like employers - they are good to keep in check against one another but I think it is a mistake to think they are purely for the employee. They quickly fall to Pournelle's Iron Law. This whole affair is a marked reminder of that fact.
I don't think the Republicans are any better for what it is worth - but I think at least the discussion on what this is all about out to be frank rather than draped in a bunch of spin. Being cautious about unions is not being anti employee.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
They worked extremely well for the people who have been members for the last 40 years. And the government is either going to make their pensions whole or loan the auto companies the money to do it, so pretty much, they (the 40 year members) don't have any downside at all.
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
Of course the owners of the corporations are against their labor organizing. The purpose of a union is to spend more of the corporation's profits on labor, leaving less for the owners.
What's interesting is how often the union's improved terms for labor increases labor's productivity. Which means a larger total profit, so even a smaller share of it to the owners can be a larger total amount than before the union, when worse working conditions produced less profit for everyone.
Which shows that sometimes, the owners are not maximizing profit, but just maximizing their power.
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make install -not war
In fact, there are many things that a union-like/guild-like would bring to the profession. We need those, and we'll invent a name for what it is later (preferably a recursive acronym) :
- An ethical code of conduct (yes, it is a benefit to be able to refuse unethical orders)
- A lobbying power (because EFF could do with a little help, having professional explain why forbidding crypto or wireshark is a bad idea)
- A guaranteed standard in job contracts.
- A measurable political and economical weight.
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
What you don't want is a behemoth like the UAW or teamsters barging into your business and telling you how to run it.
I was in the Temamsters at one point in my life. Their problem isn't that they're a union, or big, but that the leadership is composed of mafia gangsters. Witness Jimmy Hoffa, who was undoubtedly dissolved in acid and poured down a sewer.
Free Martian Whores!
Look, if your from the UK you mostly won't understand how this works. The American working class, at least the anti-union ones posting here, have been propagandized since birth to think "Union Bad!"
On the other hand, it eventually penetrates through this fog that IT people aren't treated very well. So, the anti-union IT people have a dilemma, "I wasn't able to take my vacation this year, I have to work weekends, holidays and long hours everyday. Oh, and my boss is threatening to replace me with cheap overseas labor. Hmm... maybe if I was part of some organization of all the other IT workers, my life wouldn't be so miserable."
Amongst this group, some will fear offending their god, "But if there are unions, then plutocrats will have less opulent luxury. Since one day, my faith in free markets, low taxes, and zero regulation will be rewarded by me being raised to the ranks of the plutocrats I don't want my opulent luxury reduced. Therefore, I will continue to keep my nose to the grindstone and forget this silly union nonsense."
Another part of the group will think, "Maybe our holy plutocrats just don't know about how miserable they are making us. That's it, they actually like and care about us, but we have no way to approach them about the unintended misery they are causing. If we had an organization, we could let them know how crummy it makes us feel that they are depressing wages and forcing us to work insane hours. But... but... Union Bad! Well, maybe if we just don't call our organization a union it will be ok."
The third part of the group thinks, "You know, my parents have healthcare, a pension and the ability to enjoy their retirement and take cruises and things. Meanwhile my retirement plan consists of a straight razor and a warm bath. You know, my Dad was in a union, and when he had to come in on weekends or work holidays he got paid extra money. Maybe the holy plutocrats are actually evil parasitic scumbags, and... I know this is heresy... unions are actually good and a path to prosperity for the working class."
"MIT betrayed all of its basic principles."
...
Unions were great when dangerous jobs were causing people to get injured and killed. But now that this problem is taken care of...
Tell that to the families of the people that once worked for Genwal Resources, Inc. and Murray Energy Corporation
Or it can work to protect your job. I cant say I dont understand at all the disgust against unions (I do know, its mostly lies and its mostly thanks to Reagan republicans and democrats who where swindled and then swindled their kids into listening to the bullshit) but what I do know is IT workers, training their Indian and Asian replacements in the US WOULD NOT BE HAPPENING if unions where present. One of the biggest reasons its cheaper for companies to move to a new country has everything to do with willing Tech idiots training these people who will do their current job for LESS.
One of the biggest reasons I enjoy being a tech in the education sector is because I know even though I myself am not tenured like teachers are, my job is protected as long as I do it and do it right. I wont be outsourced, and I wont be replaced by someone who is more willing to do it cheaper, and I will make my FAIR wage, and not have some asshole come up with bullshit pulled out of his ass why I shouldn't make more money while they gets a 4,000 dollar raise.
"Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."
Ok, a couple things that need clearing up here;
There is a popular myth (promoted BY union-types) that Unions are the SOLE reason that we aren't all minimum wage slaves serving our evil corporate masters as they sit atop thrones made from the bones of our fathers. Obviously, that's an exaggeration, but the way some union people talk, you would be hard-pressed to think they believe anything different.
The truth is that labor relations and labor LAWS had been changing for a good 50 years by the time unions arrived on the scene. Indeed, there is ample evidence to show that, rather than speed the adoption of improved safety and labor laws, the unions, and the backlash they produced, actually SLOWED the advancement of labor and safety laws in the United States.
Even IF the unions WERE the arbiters of fairness and safety they claim to have been, those days are LONG GONE. Unions now are just another bloated bureaucracy looking for relevance. A solution in search of a problem. All the needed labor and safety laws are in place, and being strengthened regularly without Union input. People are well aware of their rights as citizens and as employees, and Business now recognizes that good employees are a valuable resource not to be squandered. We don't NEED unions anymore, and IT people ABSOLUTELY do not need them.
We have simply outgrown them.
Official Heretic from the "Church of Global Warming". Proven right thanks to whistle blowers. AGW = Flat Earth Theory
Not if the offshoring and H1B lobbyists have their way. One of the reasons businesses are lobbying like hell for more visa workers is that they realize that they depend more and more on IT and that it's becoming a bigger proportion of their budgets. But they don't want to pay that; they want IT labor to become a cheap commodity.
Table-ized A.I.
that times are changing. With India and China having their money tied to the dollar, it is designed to drain our economy. That esp. includes our tech jobs. I have lost 2 jobs in a row to them going to India. Yet, India is upset about the high prices of drugs to them because many of them are still made in USA or EU. So, they (and now china) are simply disregarding the patents and simply producing them in their country. Most union would work to prevent the jobs from being shifted overseas for these reasons. Sadly, many unions do not have a clue about how to retain the jobs. Instead of ignoring the overseas workers, they should insist that they have similar working condition AND that they get close to the same pay. Once the overseas are getting good money, they will thank the unions and be a member.
As a member of my "professional guild association" - the IEEE - let me tell you that it wouldn't help you remotely. They'll advocate positions that you agree with barely 50% of the time, be mostly useless in helping you advance your career, and not really offer any other viable services for rank-and-file members besides socialization and a glossy magazine.
It doesn't hurt to be nice.
They could lobby Congress to stop running fat trade deficits against countries that favor exports more than their local consumers. Big trade deficits create lots of problems, including bubbles. They are not a good thing in general, not just labor issues.
(I don't like lobbying in general, but something needs to counter-weigh big-biz lobbying as things stand.)
Table-ized A.I.
Enough with the bullshit dishonesty. You don't care about secret ballots. You just hate unions. At least the unions are honest about their intentions.
Wasnt it you who was decrying namecalling in another thread?
I got an idea. This may be radical, but why don't you try treating employees well? Pay them a decent wage, give them good benefits and don't shit all over them. Maybe then they wouldn't want to form a union, and the vote would fail on it's own initiative.
I think many would argue that this is exactly what most non-union companies do. Examples: Publix workers and Toyota factory workers. Both have substantially higher morale than their unionized competitors. Both have successfully resisted countless union drives. And both have higher entry level pay.
Boeing Aerospace has an engineering union. Perhaps we should ask them whether they feel it has been worthwhile or not?
I had a good friend go to work for Boeing 20 years ago fresh out of college and join the union. His starting salary was a few $k higher than mine, but he only received a 3% raise every 18 months. I got 10-20% annual raises for the first 5 years based on performance. He's a team leader at Boeing now. I'm semi-retired after being a consultant the last 10 years.
BTW, he had a 4.0 GPA and didn't work in college. I had a 2.8GPA but worked 30+ hours a week putting myself through engineering school.
Unions are good for "average and below average" workers. They are not good for high performers (whatever that means), since performance usually doesn't lead to greater pay when you are in a union. Rather, time on the job does, even if you suck.