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What Parrots Tell Us About the Evolution of Birds

Posted by samzenpus on from the norwegian-blue dept.

GrrlScientist writes "One of the most contentious issues among scientists who study the evolution of birds is identifying precisely when the modern birds (Neornithes) first appeared. This is due to conflicts between the fossil record and molecular dating methodologies. But there is another way to address this discrepancy. Because the evolution of parrots and cockatoos reflects the evolution of the birds (Aves) themselves, studying the psittaciformes offers compelling insights into this mystery. Further, because psittaciformes generally are not migratory and because they tend to occupy discrete ranges, their ancient patterns of diversification are easier to discern than for many other taxonomic orders of birds that have dispersed widely."

45 of 62 comments (clear)

  1. They could also tell a lot about by crazybit · · Score: 4, Interesting

    how intelligence evolved.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_(parrot)

    They are probably the smartest non-mammal creatures around.

    --
    - Human knowledge belongs to the world
    1. Re:They could also tell a lot about by WalksOnDirt · · Score: 1

      They are probably the smartest non-mammal creatures around.

      Octopuses might disagree.

      --
      a,e,i,o,u and sometimes w and y (at be if of up cwm by)
    2. Re:They could also tell a lot about by n0dna · · Score: 3, Funny

      So would any animal that doesn't shit in its own water dish.

    3. Re:They could also tell a lot about by arotenbe · · Score: 1

      So would any animal that doesn't shit in its own water dish.

      I'm not really sure that octopuses need a water dish. They kind of live in it and stuff.

      --
      Tomato wedge sperm darts that are Republican.
    4. Re:They could also tell a lot about by crazybit · · Score: 4, Insightful

      One big difference is that parrots developed personality, but octopuses didn't.

      One of the reasons I believe parrots have such a remarkable intelligence is that they live in an ecosystem bloated of food. I live in Peru and have seen the Amazon Jungle and you won't believe how rich it can be.

      http://askpang.typepad.com/relevant_history/2008/12/octopus-watch-tv-have-no-personalities.html

      --
      - Human knowledge belongs to the world
    5. Re:They could also tell a lot about by sam_v1.35b · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Agreed. Where I live there are large flocks of cockatoos. They are very social and can get to great ages. I've often seen them playing with street lights where they pull the rubber seal out so it dangles and they can muck about. I've seen them sit in two groups on either end of a pond and mercilessly chase ducks from one end to the other. The most startling thing I ever saw was a cockatoo that was in the middle of the road. I was coming one way at 90kph and another car was coming the other way at around the same speed. The bird saw us coming too late. Under these circumstances most animals bolt, with predictably messy consequences. This cockatoo stood its ground, moved right to the centre of the road and stood still while we passed. After we passed it carried on. This was not seem like an animal freezing in fear. My impression was that it was a carefully calculated strategy.

    6. Re:They could also tell a lot about by Gabrill · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You've finally solved the problem. Intelligence is the result of survival boredom.

      --
      Always going forward, 'cause we can't find reverse.
    7. Re:They could also tell a lot about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Anyone that has spent much time around parrots and has a basic grasp of evolutionary theory will feel the same way.

      They basically just play, eat, rest, and then repeat. When they eat much more is wasted then is eaten. Seems like they maybe get 30% of the food down. Hardly a recipe for survival in any challenging environment.

      Makes me wonder if humans evolved intelligence as a survival mechanism or because our ancient ancestors lived in a land of plenty and intelligence followed.

    8. Re:They could also tell a lot about by BikeHelmet · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That's really neat.

      It makes me think of an interesting theory proposed by scientists - that intelligence is partly social.

      We learn off other people, so if you're surrounded by people smarter than you, then you're likely exposed to more concepts, and thus can better understand how those concepts relate to the world and other concepts.

      What I wonder is, if you could train a small community of animals to think in a more intelligent way, would their children be smarter? Would you kickstart an evolutionary boost to their intelligence?

      If you taught an entire colony of parrots to count to 10, would that become knowledge that future generations would retain?

      I'm curious where the limits of intelligence are for such a tiny brain - and I wonder how far intellect could be pushed for a larger animal, such as an elephant.

      They do say elephants never forget...

    9. Re:They could also tell a lot about by lazy_nihilist · · Score: 1

      I'd say that's insightful.

    10. Re:They could also tell a lot about by Nethead · · Score: 4, Informative

      I have an African Grey and a heavy duty Kenmore vacuum. I know of what you speak. We acquired this bird by agreeing to babysit it for 3 days.. that was 20 months ago. He is now part of the family of 3 humans, 5 cats (don't ask) and two goldfish. He has learned every fsckin' ringtone he's ever heard, how to count to five and appropriate use of the terms:

        Want more.
        Good shit Maynard. (when he really like what you just gave him)
        Good morning.
        Night Night little buddy.
        See ya later (when I put on my coat)
        Whatcha doin? (When a cat comes near)
        a human laugh.
        a human meow.
        a cat meow (different depending on the cat he's talking to and matching that cat's voice.)
        three of the cats names. (One of the cats is named Michelle and he's called her "Shell-bird" a few times which shows that he is able to work with language a bit. We call him Smokey-bird and hey-bird and he seems to think that "bird" is a compliment.)

      He likes to play making phone calls. He'll do a ring tone, say hello, and then wait and say things like "ok", "Sure". "Uh-huh". "Yeah," say numbers (he likes the sound of "zero-six-zero") and then say "Ok, bye" and then beep (sound of the phone hanging up.)

      He constantly makes various sounds of water, microwave beeps, and fart/burp noises (again, don't ask) and complex whistle noises. He's also damn good doing whistle riffs to blues and Grateful Dead. We have a DirecTV basic box without a TV on it connected to computer speakers so he can listen to rock in the living room where his cage is (XM Deep Tracks.) He's blessed with a nice view of Tulilip Bay and lots of wildlife.

      I'm working now on trying to teach him Morse code ;)

      These are very smart animals. About what you would expect from a three year old human... and about the same emotional development. They are a lot of maintenance though. You have to keep getting them new toys and new tastes to experience. You have to spend at least 5 hours a day with them in physical/mental activity. They do show love and loyalty but can be fickle as hell. They know when they are fucking with you and seem to enjoy it (actually using an evil laugh. My wife says it's my laugh but I don't think I sound like that.)

      I need to research more on training/teaching him but the details are scarce on-line. I enjoy my time with Smokey and do feel love for him. I hope that I find a good home for him one day as he should outlive me by a few decades. If any other slashdotters have Greys, please email me with tips/stories/support. My email addy is in the clear above.
       

      --
      -- I have a private email server in my basement.
    11. Re:They could also tell a lot about by ZERO1ZERO · · Score: 2, Informative

      I know it's not a parrot, but this bird amazes me for the fact it can mimic non verbal/voice sounds so well. Particulary the chainsaws / camera. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WuFyqzerHS8

    12. Re:They could also tell a lot about by TapeCutter · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The footage is from the mountains near Melbourne, I've seen and heard lyre birds not 10 miles from where I live. The range of things they mimic is incredible and they are very loud.

      Like the OP there have been parrots in our family for years, my parents still have a cockatoo that they aquired when I was ten (fourty years ago). I agree wholeheartedly that parrots will use phrases in the correct context, some examples...
      "G'Day mate" when someone comes in the front door (but not when they leave).
      "Scratch cocky" if you STOP scratching him under the chin.

      It may just be the particular birds I've had experience with but it seems to me the larger parrots (cockatoos, galahs, etc) are smater than the smaller ones (budgies, cockatiels). Parrots aren't the only smart birds, another Attenbouogh clip shows crows are "street wise".

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    13. Re:They could also tell a lot about by TapeCutter · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm assuming you're an Aussie because you are definitely describing Australian cockies, even though fly like they are on LSD the only bird that will even think of screwing with a cockatoo is an Eagle. If you are an Aussie you will know what I mean by a magpie but to those that don't have them they are like a black & white crow and they have a very pleasant morning/evening song.

      Anyway the light thing in your post reminded me of of a magpie that hangs out in my garden, I moved into a new house recently and I kept hearing this magpie song at 1-2-3am, I've occasionally heard other magpies in the past do this but this one was persistent and I remeber thinking to myself - dumb bird hasn't worked out the sunrise thing yet.

      I came home late the other night and as I got out of the car I heard the magpie, I looked up and spotted my "dumb" magpie sitting on top of the street light stuffing his face with moths and beetles that were swarming around the light.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    14. Re:They could also tell a lot about by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      I came home late the other night and as I got out of the car I heard the magpie, I looked up and spotted my "dumb" magpie sitting on top of the street light stuffing his face with moths and beetles that were swarming around the light.
      On the vein of smart animals, last year I purchased a bug zapper (yes, I know, you are better off buying one for your neighbors than for yourself, but there's no arguing with the missus). The first night, it started zapping bugs and attracting June Bugs. The second night, just after it came on, I noticed 3 or 4 toads showed up and hung out underneath it, gorging themselves on June Bugs that landed underneath it.
      For those not familiar with June Bugs, they are the answer to the supposition that Bumblebees shouldn't be able to fly. June Bugs truly can't fly. Which doesn't mean that they don't get up in the air and try. I think if they survive in the long run, they are going to end up having to grow landing gear out of the top side of their body, because they always seem to be upside down on the side walk, or more commonly, drowning in the swimming pool. You can pick one up and throw it in the air, and within two seconds, it will have hit the ground again. It is a miracle of nature that these things have not gone extinct.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    15. Re:They could also tell a lot about by Rob+Carr · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Parrots can engage in corporophagia--they eat parrot poop. If they didn't digest the food completely the first time, they'll get it the second. Their guts are short so their food has a short residence time. The things you do for flight!

      It's also how they spread good intestinal bacteria among the flock. If we are forced to hand-feed a parrot chick from day one, we mix some of the mother's feces in the formula for the first week or so. Survival rate improves dramatically, although feeding a bird the size of your little fingernail is still iffy (parakeets and bourkes).

      If the recent information on termites is correct, sharing feces may be one strategy for forming societies.

      Finally, if you really want to get freaked out, read about treating intestinal infections with feces transplants.

      --
      This sig seemed like a good idea at the time....
    16. Re:They could also tell a lot about by Rob+Carr · · Score: 1

      Our two African greys don't seem to like regular TV. They may need HD, too.

      The cockatoo loves TV. He will watch Barney the dinosaur until my eyes and ears bleed, and hates raptors on Animal Planet. Strangely, he likes Corwin Presents, except for that episode with the anaconda.

      He hates the weather channel, too, but he was rescued Hurricane Andrew. Not a fan of big winds.

      --
      This sig seemed like a good idea at the time....
    17. Re:They could also tell a lot about by tietokone-olmi · · Score: 1

      In my experience budgies are rather clever too. It's just that they're stubborn (i.e. typically not inquisitive), often disinterested in "people stuff" and of course their little heads run at speeds where humans must seem very very slow indeed. And they usually die rather young compared to larger parrots (old age takes them between 7 and 10 years) so there's not so much that a single budgie will learn in its lifetime.

      They do have lovely singing voices though compared to any other parrot. And they're quite robust and capable of handling themselves, so not prone to accidents... which I guess comes from the stubbornness.

      But they have wonderful social intelligence. Always chatting and paying attention, unless asleep or eating or something. Traveling in huge flocks in the wild does that to a species, I suppose.

    18. Re:They could also tell a lot about by mysticgoat · · Score: 1

      It makes me think of an interesting theory proposed by scientists - that intelligence is partly social.

      There's a word for this, originally from South Africa but it is now gaining traction in the global technology community.

      Ubuntu.

      Sort of like "a human is a human through his interactions with other humans."

      Atendea-quel winya!

    19. Re:They could also tell a lot about by crazybit · · Score: 1

      I find this rather strange.

      Parrots love to be on trees, the higher the tree the happier they are. They tend to climb as up as they can as part of their instinct (maybe to avoid predators or for having a better view). I have seen this behavior in their natural habitat (Peru's jungle).

      I don't see how parrots could eat their poo unless they can reach it, and in their natural habitat it's kinda difficult because the ground in not only way down, but also covered with meters of dead leaves that will drain the poo to almost unreachable locations. There is no solid soil on a Jungle's "floor", but meters of a mix of dead leaves, humidity, and all sort of recycling insects.

      Also, in their natural habitat they have ENDLESS food (you need to be here to understand what I mean), so I don't see why they'll need to eat their excrement unless something is wrong.

      Besides, experience have taught me that parrots hate their poo as much as humans do. I have a Green Parrot that hasn't shit on her cage for the last year, she waits until she is taken out to the garden (which we do every day) to take a nice shit while standing on her favorite tree.

      --
      - Human knowledge belongs to the world
    20. Re:They could also tell a lot about by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      I have owned budgies and seen them in the wild here in Australia, I don't think they are stupid just not as smart as larger parrots. However I think you may have hit the nail on the head whith the age comment, larger parrots live longer and will seem smarter because they have learnt more.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    21. Re:They could also tell a lot about by Rob+Carr · · Score: 1
      1. Not all environments provide unlimited food at all times. Don't forget, in Australia, parrots are often considered agricultural pests. Until significant farming took place, they didn't have such an availability of food as they do now. Macaws in the Amazon have to eat clay to be able to deal with the toxins in their environment. Picking undigested food out of their poop may provide an advantage, the clay having leached many of the toxins out already.
      2. Many parrots are ground birds (African greys have a digging instinct that's hysterical) or live in such large groups that poop is unavoidable (budgerigars).
      3. Our African greys are fastidious about their poop, although they're surprisingly fond of getting their poop on other birds or humans (my grey targets me--never does it to my wife, of whom she's jealous.
      4. There are significant variations between individual birds, various species,health and possibly even "pecking order" in the flock.

      Note: If you own a pet bird, cleanliness of the bird and the bird's environment is very important. In this discussion, I've mixed a combination of wild behaviors with what parrots often instinctively do in captivity. Poop does provide healthy bacteria, but it can also provide a vector for diseases. Except for rare cases like treatment with powerful antibiotics or hand-feeding from day 1, keep all dirt to a minimum to keep your parrot and you healthy.

      --
      This sig seemed like a good idea at the time....
    22. Re:They could also tell a lot about by TheStonepedo · · Score: 1

      I spat scotch on my laptop when I read your post :-)

      --
      I'll be your candy shop of infinite deliciousity if you'll be my discotheque of endless rump-shaking.
    23. Re:They could also tell a lot about by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      It's not just size -- budgies are smarter than cockatiels, in my experience (having owned both). The budgie I have now is not yet six, and she has always been smarter than the cockatiel I had that made it to eighteen, so age is not always enough to offset general stupidity. Still, longevity does factor into it -- even the most intelligent squid isn't going to be able to accomplish much (individually) with a three year life expectancy. I marvel at the evolutionary pressures that would make them live fast and die young, yet also favor intelligence.

      It's not entirely brain/body ratio either. Even accounting for the fact that a smaller body means fewer neurons need to be dedicated to controlling it, there's still only so much that can be packed into a tiny space. By this measure, the larger birds with larger skulls should have a greater potential for intelligence. Not all of them will use this space efficiently, but at least the ceiling is higher.

      Mal-2

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    24. Re:They could also tell a lot about by crazybit · · Score: 1

      Interesting, I didn't knew about such behavior in other species.

      The one I was talking about was "Amazonica Amazonica", mainly found in Amazon Jungle (Peru and Brasil). Luckily my bird doesn't like targeting humans with her poop ;), in fact she doesn't even like to poop inside her cage :D

      It's funny to see how, like humans, our feathery friends have different behavior according to the ecosystem where they live.

      --
      - Human knowledge belongs to the world
    25. Re:They could also tell a lot about by ChromaticDragon · · Score: 1

      Intelligence itself might not be the result of "survival boredom". I consider it an incredibly interesting proposition, however.
      But society and hence technology is undeniably the result of "survival boredom". Once we got that agricultural thing down, there was no turning back.

    26. Re:They could also tell a lot about by rch_slashdot · · Score: 1

      Agree wholeheartedly. Had a parrot once; modeled on Cap'n Flint (Silver's parrot). Came back one day to find my wife had got rid of him - she said the shrieking upset the neighbors. Anyway, I read once that the spiny ant-eater was the highest form of life that didn't dream. I suspect that dreaming is necessary for intelligence, and ask if anyone can tell if parrots dream?

  2. Parrot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Come on, all of us know that parrot is just vaporware.

  3. i'm obligated. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    is that an african or a european psittaciformes?

  4. What they tell us? by feepness · · Score: 2, Funny

    Pretty much exactly what they hear. Just louder and repeated ad nauseum.

    1. Re:What they tell us? by mattwarden · · Score: 3, Funny

      Are you suggesting parrots and consultants share a common ancestor?

    2. Re:What they tell us? by shadowbearer · · Score: 1

      Of course they do. The difference is that parrots have evolved enormously since then ;)

      SB

      --
      It's old. The more humans I meet, the more I like my cats. At least they are honest.
    3. Re:What they tell us? by Julissa · · Score: 1

      Hi mattwarden,
      Your comment was hilarious and enjoyed reading it. I can't just imagine your comparison of a parrot with a consultant. I really enjoyed reading it Ha! Ha!
      ---------
      Julissa
      <a href="http://www.steakhousefinder.com/steakhouses">Steakhouse Finder - best steak houses and steaks</a>

  5. What they tell us by NotSoHeavyD3 · · Score: 1

    Polly want a cracker

    --
    Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
  6. Re:But, but, I thought they were intelligently... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You know, the only reason the whole "Intelligent Design" thing is an issue at all, is because people keep bringing it up.

    Resist the urge to mention it - even to mock it, and it will just go away quietly. But bring it up every time someone mentions the word "evolution", and you'll have people believing it's a serious theory - even have people believing they believe in it, even when no mainstream branch of Christianity does.

  7. Re:Evolution is such a hoax. by Nethead · · Score: 3, Informative

    So as to not waste your time the above link goes to: "Biblical Correctness Ministries"

    Giving scientific evidence to prove a literal six-day creation, Dr. Kent Hovind refutes evolution's proposition that the earth has evolved over billions of years.

    'Nuf said?

    --
    -- I have a private email server in my basement.
  8. Re:A strato-conclusive example of parakeet evoluti by Nethead · · Score: 1

    Sounds like a nice chip. WTF does it have to do with parrots unless you are saying that parrots have this chip in them? This would explain a parrots ability to mimic speech and sounds. What else in in a parrot that will allow it to digitize audio, store it, and play it back for up to 80 years existing literally on bird feed?

    --
    -- I have a private email server in my basement.
  9. Well, if they could speak... by rts008 · · Score: 1

    Polly wants a cracker!

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  10. Re:But, but, I thought they were intelligently... by Vlad_the_Inhaler · · Score: 1

    I thought the current pope quite liked the idea, and *he* never makes mistakes (its in the job description).

    --
    Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
  11. Re:But, but, I thought they were intelligently... by TempeTerra · · Score: 1

    'creationism' is usually shorthand for Young Earth Creationism; i.e. God made all the animals magically pop into existance in their modern forms and allowing for variations like dog breeds but NOT allowing dinosaurs to evolve into birds. It's a way fringe belief with a few very vocal supporters.

    The last I heard the Catholic church was old earth/not completely loony creationist - God created the animals and evolution was his tool. No denial of fossil or genetic evidence required. The Catholic church is surprisingly science-friendly (for a system of unsupportable beliefs) in that they will interpret scripture in a way that doesn't contradict strong scientific evidence. Compare to biblical literalists who believe the bible is literal and infallible and if it disagrees with the real world, then the real world must be wrong!

    That said, I don't follow what the pope says very closely, so the new bloke might have some strange ideas.

    --
    .evom ton seod gis eht
  12. Re:Evolution is such a hoax. by ferd_farkle · · Score: 2, Funny

    Alright, who left the damned troll-flap open?

  13. Not What My Parrot Told Me... by littlewink · · Score: 1

    He reminded me that most human scientific articles are wrong and not to listen to anything unless I got it straight from the horse's mouth.

  14. The real question is crackers and rum? by whitroth · · Score: 1

    I mean, what possible ecological imperative would cause parrots to evolve so as to want to eat crackers and rum, and cause them to be attractive to pirates?

          mark, arrrhhhh, matey

  15. What do they tell us about the evolution of birds? by wylderide · · Score: 1

    Pretty much the same things we told them. Oh, and crackers came up surprisingly often.

    --
    This is the best restaurant I ever eat in
  16. Horse....Cart by doug141 · · Score: 1

    Intelligence is the result of survival boredom.

    Isn't intelligence a prerequisite for boredom, and therefore can not be a result of boredom?