More Evidence For a Clovis-Killer Comet

fortapocalypse sends word that a new paper was published today in the journal Science on the hypothesis that a comet impact wiped out the Clovis people 12,900 years ago. (We discussed this hypothesis last year when it was put forth.) The new evidence is a layer of nanodiamonds at locations all across North America, at a depth corresponding to 12,900 years ago, none earlier or later. The researchers hypothesize that the comet that initiated the Younger Dryas, reversing the warming from the previous ice age, fragmented and exploded in a continent-wide conflagration that produced a layer of diamond from carbon on the surface. While disputing the current hypothesis, NASA's David Morrison allows, "They may have discovered something absolutely marvelous and unexplained."

Comments

12,900 years ago?

[grub]

12,900 years ago? That's over twice the age of the Earth, you heathens!

Re:12,900 years ago?

[larry bagina]

didn't you get the memo? Barack H. Obama is the new messiah. HE has brought forth HOPE. HE will pay for our cars and houses. HE will create 3 million new jobs. And HE has totally ripped abs.

Re:12,900 years ago?

[Roxton]

I heartily disapprove of this "play nice" rhetoric.

A few points:
1) Apologists like you prefer to think that the literalists are a small minority. A third of the people I know are young earth creationists, and I live in Massachusetts. 48% of the US public are young earth creationists. 16% of high school BIOLOGY teachers are young earth creationists. If you only get one thing out of this, let it be this: have some fucking intellectual integrity and stop understating the issue. Please.

2) You're right to suggest that an argument can't be productive if there's no common ground from which to argue. It is, however, insulting to assume that there is no such common ground. To suggest that the concepts of Bayesian inference, justifiability, history and psychology are not inaccessible to a deeply religious person is condescending to the extreme -- certainly far more condescending than the comments of the GP.

3) Your comment implies that there is no merit to demonstrating intolerance to bad ideas. That's a very popular conception, and I think that, as a liberal policy, it's been utterly disastrous. Now, clearly, it can be effective in a discussion or argument to assume that the other person is capable of meaningfully participating in that discussion or argument, but that's not the same as tolerating bad ideas. Cultural pressure is one of the great factors in meme progression and suppression, and it needs to be used.

When you don't believe in apodictic truth, it's easy to have reservations about sharing your ideas, because they aren't so much correct as "merely" good. Secularists need to sack up and realize that good is good enough to be loud. Timidity is not a good policy.

Re:12,900 years ago?

[leoaloha]

Mark 6:3 "This is the carpenter the son of Mary and the brother of James and Joseph and Judas and Simon, is it not? "

Re:12,900 years ago?

[_ivy_ivy_]

Interesting. What's the SI unit of religious zealotry, and what type of apparatus is used to measure it?

The Jihadi. It is nominally defined as the rate at which the zealot can destroy knowledge.

1 Jihadi = 1 Burning Library of Congress (BLoC) per fortnight.

Re:12,900 years ago?

[Qzukk]

How many Burning Libraries of Alexandria are there in a Burning Library of Congress?

Re:12,900 years ago?

[Kjella]

You can't just leave it alone can you. You need to retake you statistics class again. And for religious zealotry it usually falls along the normal distribution curve. (...) You wonder why the radical evangelics fights so hard against science. Because the scientist want to mock them and prove them wrong.

Funny, I thought it was because when you do prove them wrong time and time again, people might start to question the rest too including the belief parts. That people have an incredible capability of cognitive dissonance and explaining away anything the parts that lead to conflict is fairly well known though. It's not just to mock, but it's to point out that it's sort of a package deal - you can't believe in half the commandments, the odd pages of the Bible or whatever. Far too many people simply cherry pick the parts they want, so that they don't have to deal with all the things that are flat out wrong and still believe that everything else is accurate. There's always a good excuse for why some parts shouldn't be taken literally or seriously which happens to fit your own opinion.

Re:12,900 years ago?

[Culture20]

didn't you get the memo? Barack H. Obama is the new messiah. HE has brought forth HOPE. HE will pay for our cars and houses. HE will create 3 million new jobs. And HE has totally ripped abs.

I used to think this was a joke, but a journalist on NPR recently stated: "[description of economic woes ...] Is there any light at the end of this darkening tunnel? Where is what the Greeks called the deus ex machina -- the god who descends at the critical moment to sweep all our troubles away?
That could be President-elect Barack Obama [...]"

NPR says he's a god now, not just Limbaugh.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=98912392

Re:12,900 years ago?

[Anonymous Coward]

If someone goes up to you and tries to open a religious flame war, just respect their beliefs

You know, I'm sick and tired of being told I have to play nice with religious people.

Why? Why do I have to respect their beliefs? Why do I have to pussy-foot around the fact that they're choosing to believe in an imaginary friend with absolutely no empirical evidence?

Sure, that's your choice... But why do I have to respect you for it?

If you tell me that you can fly, do I have to respect that belief too? What if you tell me that paper isn't flamable? What if you tell me that cyanide is a healthy supplement to have with breakfast? At what point does it become acceptable for me to call you a flaming idiot?

People kind of grin and chuckle at the Invisible Pink Unicorn and Flying Spaghetti Monster... But religions like Christianity are just as ridiculous. The only reason Christianity gets any kind of respect is because it has been around longer. So, in a couple thousand years, are people going to have to respect the beliefs of a Pastafarian? Or will they still be allowed to grin and chuckle?

And, of course, this respect only goes one way. We're all supposed to respect the beliefs of the religious folks... But they don't have to respect ours.

Religions are constantly trying to impose their beliefs on anyone and everyone around them. I'm not just talking about evangelists who just won't take no for an answer... Take a look at the big battle of Proposition 8 in California.

It doesn't matter whether I believe that you should be able to marry whoever you want...the religious folks think it should just be between a man and a woman. Are they willing to respect my beliefs? Are they willing to let atheists and agnostics and whoever else go around marrying who they want to, and just worry about keeping their own flock on the straight-and-narrow? Nope! No same-sex marriages for anyone!

Re:12,900 years ago?

[Dragonslicer]

Interesting. What's the SI unit of religious zealotry, and what type of apparatus is used to measure it?

The Jihadi. It is nominally defined as the rate at which the zealot can destroy knowledge.

1 Jihadi = 1 Burning Library of Congress (BLoC) per fortnight.

Would that make the Crusade the Imperial unit? And if so, what's the conversion equation?

Re:12,900 years ago?

[ScentCone]

Similarly, not tolerating bad ideas will eventually lead to a fight

You mean, like slavery? One group decides to continue to tolerate it, and another group decides not to. A big bloody fight ensues. One side wins. The intolerable idea becomes insignificantly present in the resulting, altered culture. Or are you suggesting that we should tolerate it, because it's gosh darn socially awkward to tell someone that they're wrong?

Liberal policy of live and let live is really all about the first part. You will never be left to live in peace unless you're willing to do the same to others

Yeah, except for the part where there are some people who consider the very act of you living the way you want to, peacefully, with things like daughters who are allowed to read and write, and marry who they choose... to be sufficient grounds to kill you. And your family. Can you really find moral comfort in that scenario by just physically removing yourself far enough away from the person who considers the nature of your day to day life to be an abomination requiring your death? Does your eager embrace of tolerance for every point of view include tolerating someone who doesn't tolerate you, and feels a religious duty to erase you from the planet?

You do realize that suppressing a meme requires oppressing the people who would pick it up or keep it

Or simply demonstrating in very plain, obvious ways that it's wrong. Or that embracing and pushing an incorrect world view or bad piece of information has consequences. Are you really equating a solid science curriculum that actively looks to shut down absurd superstitions in its students with Stalinism? Man, it must be exhausting to work so hard at moral relativism.

Lonsdaleite

[mdsolar]

The NYT article mentioned some of the diamond is hexagonal: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/02/science/02impact.html

This is a type of diamond that seems to form when meteors enter the atmosphere and it a called Lonsdaleite http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonsdaleite

This material is of interest as a replacement for structural steel since it can be formed in a simple manner using chemistry. http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2008/01/anaximenes-way.html

Tunguska event had no crater

[Jason Quinn]

It's worth pointing out that the Tunguska event left no crater. Lack of a crater is not a major problem with this hypothesis.

Re:Tunguska event had no crater

[FooAtWFU]

They're actually investigating Lake Cheko as a possible impact site for a fragment of the Tunguska body. 8 km away, conical, pointed straight away from the blast center, seems (magnetically) to have a metal rock about a meter wide at the bottom (which the University of Bologna intends to dig up some time this year).

oldest event preserved in history?

[peter303]

Whats the oldest verifiable event or person preserve in human oral or written history? I think we get barely half-way to this meteor.

Re:oldest event preserved in history?

[Hognoxious]

What do you think cave paintings represent?

Need new club? Go to Ug! Only one bearskin. Bad credit no problem, one egg now, one each moon change one hand fingers times.

(YMMV, Where taboo, no go)

Re:oldest event preserved in history?

[Guido von Guido]

Gilgamesh is older than that. It was handed down from before the pictograms that preceded cuneiform.

First, that 3500 BC date includes the pictogram phase. The characteristic cuneiform wedges didn't come until later.

Second, there's not any evidence that the Gilgamesh epic was handed down from earlier. The earliest versions of the Gilgamesh legend date from the third dynasty of Ur, beginning roughly 2150 BC. There is some historical evidence for an actual Gilgamesh, who is mentioned in the Sumerian king list. There's also some contemporary evidence for some of the other kings mentioned in the epic. If he did exist, he probably dates to around 2700 BC.

To be fair, the epic of Gilgamesh could certainly be based on older legends. There's just no evidence for it.

Re:oldest event preserved in history?

[E 99]

I wouldn't say there's no evidence for it. The strong connections between the Gilgamesh epic and other, generally dissimilar mythologies, the best example perhaps being the connections between the flood myth in Gilgamesh and other flood myths around the world at the same time, is evidence of an earlier common connection.

So I can tell the girlfriend...

[kaizendojo]

"Those aren't diamond chips, Baby...they're NANODIAMONDS!" Makes me sound less cheap.

The solutrean hypothesis

[Nicolas MONNET]

Just to point this interesting, if far fetched, hypothesis about the origin of Clovis people, based on the striking resemblance of their stone tools and that of those found from the Solutrean.
A friend who's studying archaeology told me about this. He's learned to make stone tools, and that made the connection quite appealing. The particularities that both techniques are not found in any other stone using culture.
Again, it's far fetched, probably not true but makes for a captivating story to get started in studying the paleolithic.

Re:The solutrean hypothesis

[Anonymous Coward]

Goddamnit, not that hypothesis again. The paper in question that proposes the connection was authored by Bradley & Stanford, published in World Archaeology 36(4), and is titled "The north Atlantic ice edge corridor: a possible Palaeolithic route to the new World.". They propose a north Atlantic warm water current that would push solutrean tech users from the spanish peninsula to the new world. They base this on a hypothetical similarity between the clovis and solutrean points. There is no such thing. The best thing to come out of that paper is the monster put-down by Strauss, Meltzer & Goebel, published in the same journal a year later and titled "Ice Age Atlantis? Exploring the Solutrean- Clovis "connection"". Man, that read is amusing, and i heartily recommend it to anyone who wants to see the way to kick ass in academia.

Re:The solutrean hypothesis

[chill]

You know, I first read that as based on the striking resemblance of their stone tools and that of those found from the Soul Train. and went WTF is he talking about? Picks and platform shoes?

does Gilgamesh remember big flood?

[peter303]

Soem people postulate the filling of the Black Sea 7150 years ago. Or the filling of the Mediteranean about 15000 years ago. Thirdly, the end of the last ice was so quick that shorelines retracted miles in a person's lifetime then. There are some "100 year loads" in Mesopotamia that are pretty nasty and Giglamesh could remember some of those. Flood legends are common around the world along with floods.

If it Reverses Global Warming...

[sycodon]

...then hell, why not?

Please be careful when taking excerpts

[DiegoBravo]

From the slashdot heading:

>> While disputing the current hypothesis, NASA's David Morrison allows, "They may have discovered something absolutely marvelous and unexplained."

From the article:

>> he said: "They may have discovered something absolutely marvelous and unexplained. But the impact hypothesis just doesn't make sense."

(bolds mine)

Enough with the Area 51 crap, guys

[RobertB-DC]

Ok, I'm not from New Mexico myself, but what is it about the southeastern part of the state that attracts these crazy theories? Roswell, Area 51, aliens, and now you say a killer comet is going to take out Clovis. Geez, can't the state get a break? Sure, it's rugged and arid, but can't people just drive through there without making up some sort of crazy story? Or is there something about those hundred-mile drives with nothing on either side of the road but yucca and cactus that messes with peoples' heads?

Killer comet in Clovis. Next, you'll be telling me you've got a bottle of White Sand from Alamogordo on your shelf, and it's grown by an eighth of an inch just since you came back.