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Amtrak Photo Contestant Arrested By Amtrak Police
Photographer Duane Kerzic was standing on the public platform in New York's Penn Station, taking pictures of trains in hopes of winning the annual photo contest that Amtrak had been running since 2003. Amtrak police arrested him for refusing to delete the photos when asked, though they later charged him with trespassing. "Obviously, there is a lack of communication between Amtrak's marketing department, which promotes the annual contest, called Picture Our Trains, and its police department, which has a history of harassing photographers for photographing these same trains. Not much different than the JetBlue incident from earlier this year where JetBlue flight attendants had a woman arrested for refusing to delete a video she filmed in flight while the JetBlue marketing department hosted a contest encouraging passengers to take photos in flight." Kerzic's blog has an account of the arrest on Dec. 21 and the aftermath.
Many transit agencies have their own POLICE force, Check out what a BART police officer did this week. Amtrak maintains an official police force
For partly historical reasons, railroad police of the larger railroads in the US and Canada are actual police officers rather than merely private security forces, with full law-enforcement jurisdiction. See also Wikipedia on the Amtrak Police.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
They can ask you to leave their premises
Even that is questionable. This is a publicly-funded organization (they provide mass transit, after all) and the photographer had a legally purchased ticket. They do NOT have the right to selectively ask people to leave without a just reason for same (eg. threatening others, intoxication, etc.) Civil rights laws passed in the 1960's protect everyone, not just the african americans who fought for them--if others have the right to stay on the train platform, so does he.
"We can categorically state we have not released man-eating badgers into the area." - UK military spokesman, July 2007
You don't even have to show them the pictures you took, since photography when you aren't trespassing isn't a crime. (Secure areas of military installations and nuclear facilities aside.)
If you are allowed to be there, you aren't committing a crime until they ask you to leave and you don't. They can say "Stop taking pictures or leave" if you are on private property and that is said by a representative of the property you are on. In public, you can photograph pretty much anything, especially police and other security personnel.
IANAL, and laws might be different in your state, but here is a lawyer talking about this, and a nice little pamphlet he made about this.
If I have nothing to hide, don't search me
Has "the land of the free" gotten to the point of creating privatly owned police forces now? Or, at least, fixing them as such in the public mind?
Railroads have had their own police forces for as long as I can remember - and I'm 48. This isn't anything new or insidious.
I am bothered by the fact that photographers get hassled - quite often - by overzealous officials who don't seem to know what's legal and what's not. This happened up here in Seattle a bit after 9/11 when a photographer was photographing a railroad trestle. But if you're in a public space, you are allowed to photograph pretty much anything you can see (even people) without permission.
#DeleteChrome
In her blog, there's more about NY City cops harassing anyone with a camera.
So much for living life normally. The terrorists have won.
If you are taking photographs in a public place, know your rights. Take a copy of this with you:
http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm
$7.95/mo, 200 GB disk, 2TBxfer, MySQL, PHP, RoR.
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=Amtrak/ContactUs
It's a shame how many of our rights are being curtailed in the name of "National Security".
As far as I've been able to ascertain from the article, Mr. Kerzic was standing in an area designated for use by the public. It does not appear to be a restricted area, and from what I can see from the photograph in the article, there are no signs warning against photography by the public.
However, as bad as we may think it is here in the United States (compared to the pre-9/11 world), things are much worse in the United Kingdom. The rights of the Individual in the UK are enshrined in Common Law (i.e., customary law passed down through the ages), and not explicitly delineated in any sort of constitutional document.
For example, in the US, we have a Constitutional Amendment guaranteeing the right against self-incrimination. A recent court case implies that this right includes encryption keys: If a law enforcement agency impounds your laptop for analysis, but can't get anything out of it because the contents have been encrypted, too bad for them. Handing over the encryption key would be a form of self-incrimination, so you don't have to do it.
On the other hand, laws, ordinances, and Police reactions regarding individual freedoms can and often do change at a whim, depending on what is expedient at the time (8th paragraph, about half-way down). In addition, since the right against self-incrimination is based on Common Law, and not written as an explicit right, ordinances like the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act can easily curtail and eliminate such rights. As usual, some groups say that even these powers do not go far enough, invoking the familiar mantra of "National Security".
And these things are happening in two of the most "open and democratic" societies the world has ever seen...
And on a side-note, here's an interesting question: Who's standing in the "restricted" zone across the tracks taking the picture of the "public" train platform?
I've shot plenty of train pictures in various European countries and so far I've only experienced problems in Marseille this summer. I was asked to stop taking pictures by a gentleman with a somewhat official suit and a walkie-talkie. My lack of French at that point made it smarter to follow the instructions rather than ask him what the exact problems were. In both Germany and Switzerland no one even came to ask what I was doing while taking pictures. Especially Switzerland with all the different railroads and rolling stock is a country where you might end up with a small group of people all shooting the same trains.
I'll use it because it is a legitimate concern jackass.
The law might not exist but one of the tenets of law enforcement agencies is "to protect and serve". If they did nothing while someone was taking pictures and that person ended up being part of some kind of terrorist scheme people would be up in arms that nothing was done.
I always find it interesting when people have this Utopian view of things when in reality risks have to be taken to ensure the world runs smoothly. Get your head out of your ass. Your civil liberties don't always trump the good intentions of the well meaning.
What use is your argument, when Amtrak literally invites people to take pictures:
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=Amtrak/am2Copy/News_Release_Page&c=am2Copy&cid=1081794202583
You did not even bother to read the summary, did you?
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
You mean the same Canada that taxes anything even vaguely related to music or movies -- including blank media and concert halls -- and sends that tax money straight to the RIAA/MPAA?
You know, I live in a Canada, but it's really nothing like that at all. I've never heard of the Canada you're talking about (I even searched Google for it.) Frankly I'm a little surprised that there is another country called Canada.
The Canada I live in has a levy on blank CDs, just like the USA. However none of the money goes to the RIAA or MPAA - it goes to the CPCC (Canadian Private Copying Collective) who distributes it to music artists and labels (not all of which are CRIA members.)
(Seriously, if you're going to criticize something, get your facts straight first.)
You are definitely wrong. All the lawyers I've talked to say that the less you say the police the better. Basically, they've already decided you are doing something wrong, and talking to them about it rarely changes that . On the other hand, if you try to talk them out of it, since so many things are illegal, you may unknowingly incriminate yourself.
The best thing to do is say "yes, officer" "sorry officer" and "it won't happen again". Take you ticket and go. No matter how wrong you think they are, they have the guns and the authority and you have nothing.
Natives in Canada are treated by far better over the course of our nation's history than they have ever been treated in the US. And for the oversights and bad judgement shown in the past, our parliament has been addressing these issues over the past several years -- most recently providing significant settlements for those affected by aboriginal schooling.
Nunavut is a territory set up specifically to address issues of self government for the Innu. Its probably a territory larger than any US state (maybe Texas is bigger).
I'd be willing to compare and contrast Canadian vs American native policies any day of the week.
As for complete freedom of the press...care to enlighten us as to what's lacking?
The fact that your comment is modded as insightful is a sad statement on the effectiveness of moderation points IMHO.
John Maynard Keynes: "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do?"
Unfortunately, when I tried to stand up for my rights, I was taken into a back room, verbally assaulted, told to shut the f**k up and do exactly as they say because there were no witnesses and they would do everything the wanted to make sure I did exactly like they said, so I should get smart really f**king quick. All the while, the Tucson Police Dept officer's hand hovered over the holster of his weapon, his face inches from me, while my hands are cuffed behind my back and I'd already been thrown about. What I'd done? I had asked why I had just been jumped by three security agents, handcuffed, dragged about and threatened with pepper spray. I'm a law abiding citizen, had made no threatening movements or gestures. When they tried to offer diversion at my arraignment? I declined, preferring a trial, at which point all charges were dropped, dismissed, and the arrest was stricken from my record. In short: I had done absolutely nothing at all wrong. This is in short, why I remain incredibily paranoid and distrustful of law enforcement. I get very nervous and very uncomfortable around your badge wearing brothers. They no longer receive my donations.