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RIAA Hearing Next Week Will Be Televised

NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "One commentator labels it 'another fly in the RIAA's ointment.' In SONY BMG Music v. Tenenbaum, the Boston, Massachusetts, RIAA case in which the defendant is represented by Harvard law professor Charles Nesson and a group of his students, the Judge has ruled that the hearing scheduled for January 22nd will be televised over the Internet. The hearing will relate to Mr. Tenenbaum's counterclaims against the record companies and against the RIAA. In her 11-page opinion (PDF), District Judge Nancy Gertner labeled as 'curious' the record companies' opposition to televising the proceedings, since their professed reason for bringing the cases is deterrence, 'a strategy [which] effectively relies on the publicity arising from this litigation'."

38 of 291 comments (clear)

  1. Sweet Jesus! by pak9rabid · · Score: 4, Funny

    This outta be more entertaining then all seasons of Heroes combined!

    1. Re:Sweet Jesus! by oodaloop · · Score: 4, Funny

      You can not verbify grammar-Nazi (notice the capitalization). It is grammar-Nazicate.

      --
      Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
  2. Terminology by corywingerter · · Score: 4, Insightful

    televised over the internet??

    Either it's televised on the television, or streamed on the internet. Just saying.

    --
    Work smarter, not harder.
    1. Re:Terminology by zarthrag · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Using my media-center, the internet is my television! ...Insensitive clod.

      --
      Why can't all fpga/microcontroller manufacturers just release free optimizing compilers???
    2. Re:Terminology by tsalmark · · Score: 5, Informative

      Televised means remote vision: that can happen over the internet as well as a TV. Actually the article uses televised in a general sense and uses the term narrowcast when going into details. which works for me.

    3. Re:Terminology by Krinsath · · Score: 5, Informative

      Television (from Merriam-Webster) - an electronic system of transmitting transient images of fixed or moving objects together with sound over a wire or through space by apparatus that converts light and sound into electrical waves and reconverts them into visible light rays and audible sound (emphasis mine)

      televised over the internet - means that the television is going out over the Internet to computer endpoints. That the television SET is often abbreviated as television is simply laziness and a bastardization of the language, not that the usage in the summary is incorrect.

    4. Re:Terminology by DanTheStone · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not theft, unauthorized copying. There's a difference; the cost to the owner is by decreased scarcity or potentially lost revenue, not by the loss of possession of an item with value. You can't steal thoughts and ideas, you can only copy them.

    5. Re:Terminology by nine-times · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Well first, even if you take the RIAA's side fully, a reasonable person would admit that it's copyright infringement, and not "theft". You can argue that copyright infringement is as bad as theft, but it's not theft.

      Second, the complaint isn't that they're trying to fight copyright infringement, but rather their methods of fighting copyright infringement. Surely methods and means can matter. I can fight against injustice using methods that are themselves unjust.

      Can we agree to that much, at least? At least as a starting point to discuss exactly how immoral copyright infringement is, and whether the RIAA's methods are just or unjust?

    6. Re:Terminology by Dark+Kenshin · · Score: 3, Interesting


      It might be just my crack-pot theory, so take it with a grain of salt...

      I would thing the main reason to want the hearings televised goes to how there scare tactics work. Sinister motives or not, reading articles and watching video have very different impacts on how people perceive the information. I can write a ton of articles saying pirates are thieves, copying music makes baby Jesus cry, you'll get a life sentence for not paying every time you listen to a song, etc; but the actual court preceding will be very different. Even if they make those exact claims, it will not be in the same tone as attack media will be.

      Real court proceedings are very dry, and will not support the fear image that they want. Plus it will be clear that they are suing for copyright violation and not theft. I'm sure there are various other concerns too.

      --
      "I only know 2 things: The love for me, and the fear of me."
    7. Re:Terminology by Cheapy · · Score: 3, Funny

      The RIAA is the Enclave? My god it's all so clear now.

      --
      Would you kindly mod me +1 insightful?
    8. Re:Terminology by ChromaticDragon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I dunno... I'll hazard a guess.

      The "scare tactics" of the RIAA are about more than just fear. It's about FUD: Fear; Uncertainty; Doubt.

      By televised court proceedings, you may increase the Fear aspect (assuming they actually have a strong case), but you may significantly reduce your portion of Uncertainty and Doubt.

      I imagine the industry wants very much to perpetuate the concept that Copyright Infringement equals theft. One doesn't even need to get into the debate of whether it is "as bad as" theft. All the RIAA/MPAA publicity efforts seem simply to hinge on the equivalence (I mean.. you wouldn't steal a car would you? huh WOULD YOU?)

      The trouble is the Industry seems scared too. Although they seem to have been easily able to purchase legislation to their hearts content, they probably realize laws on the books won't matter a bit if the larger society as a whole shifts in their view of said laws. First, they won't get enforced. Second, eventually even if the laws don't get overturned, sooner or later Jury Nullification will take over. Or we might start seeing damages scaled way, WAY back to realistic levels.

      Public perception of these folk may be souring greatly. These things can shift rather quickly. I believe this is what they fear.

    9. Re:Terminology by edittard · · Score: 5, Funny

      I wonder, honestly, why does the RIAA oppose this being televised?

      They've got a plan to sell it on DVD?

      --
      At the bottom of the /. main page it says 'Yesterday's News'. Well they got that right.
    10. Re:Terminology by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I wonder, honestly, why does the RIAA oppose this being televised?

      That's easy.

      Exposure of these proceedings gives information to those who must defend future cases, thus reducing their defense costs.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    11. Re:Terminology by mpeskett · · Score: 5, Interesting

      No. Stealing the product of their labour would involve nicking the master copy they made, or possibly shoplifting a CD (although then you're stealing from the shop rather than the artist). An infringing copy removes nothing from their possession except the money that you might or might not have spent on a legal copy.

      Both are illegal, but they aren't the same thing, and really the only reason to persist in not splitting that hair is if you have some motive for "copyright infringement" to be considered exactly equal to "theft". The most obvious motive being that theft sounds more serious and so people are less likely to choose to do it if they think of it in those terms.

      Thankfully we are not undergoing a transition to Newspeak, so there is no need to eliminate terms from our vocabulary. There is a distinction between the 2 things and no reason to lump them together under one word, so please stop trying to do so.

    12. Re:Terminology by nine-times · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, no, I'd disagree there. After all, that's the real battleground here, isn't it?

      I suppose it's the battleground, in that some people are specifically trying to tie the two together. There's a specific PR campaign to change terminology so that it will change people's perception.

      However, when they began this campaign, they were basically starting from zero. I don't think most people started out thinking of copying files as a crime, but certain powers have really fought to have it labelled as "piracy" and "theft".

      Even though they've made some headway, ask most people, "Is downloading a song from the internet the same thing as breaking into someone's house and stealing a CD?" I don't think many people will say "yes" unless they have some sort of political stake in pushing that PR.

  3. RIAA seeks $1 million for seven songs by Smidge207 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One million for 7 songs?! How does something like that even get in to court? Can you imagine if I stole $6.93 (.99 x 7) worth of beef jerky from 7-11? Do you think the court would even hear a case where they wanted a million for my crime?

    This is the new business model of the recording industry, which is exactly like the old model. Overcharge your customers and when that doesn't work, overcharge and extort from your customers to make up for shortfalls you generated because you have a crappy product.

    There's only so much "drug money", oops CD purchases, the listening public will bestow on ungrateful addicts, oops recording artists...

    (Yes I'm bitter this morning; still need my meth, oops coffee.)

    =Smidge=

    --
    Is it just my observation, or is eldavojohn an idiot?
    1. Re:RIAA seeks $1 million for seven songs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      One million for 7 songs?! How does something like that even get in to court? Can you imagine if I stole $6.93 (.99 x 7) worth of beef jerky from 7-11? Do you think the court would even hear a case where they wanted a million for my crime?

      "Your Honor, the defendant could have cloned cattle by extracting DNA from the stolen beef jerky..."

    2. Re:RIAA seeks $1 million for seven songs by Steauengeglase · · Score: 4, Interesting

      CD purchases, the listening public will bestow on ungrateful addicts, oops record execs...

      Fixed. The real problems are/were record companies who were addicted to printing their own money and a market that thinks/thought that making 200%+ profit is/was piss poor performance. Fortunately, the recording industry is finally coming around to the notion that lawyers are only good for collecting sort-term, high-gain revenue, not suing grandma for her Dale Jr. poster.

    3. Re:RIAA seeks $1 million for seven songs by TheSpoom · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The real problem is that the RIAA don't have a product anymore.

      They used to control the means of recording. No longer, since the equipment necessary can be got for much, much cheaper than years ago.

      They used to control the means of reproduction, in that they could actually mass produce your tapes / CDs for you. No longer, since stamping a CD is incredibly cheap now.

      Just about the only thing they still control is radio, and even then that's being eaten into by the internet and things like Pandora and last.fm, which their lobbyists are desperately trying to kill.

      Without a real business model, they're scraping for ways to maintain the position of control they used to have, and litigation is a very good way of doing just that, since most people don't have the means to actually fight them.

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
    4. Re:RIAA seeks $1 million for seven songs by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 4, Funny

      Of course.. you can't copy a beef jerky.. the only way for you to be handing out beef jerky is to acquire it yourself - and I very highly doubt you'd be able to give it away for free with no money exhanged somewhere somehow.

      If I could download beef jerky from the internet, I would definitely give it away to anyone who asked for some.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    5. Re:RIAA seeks $1 million for seven songs by Lord+Pillage · · Score: 4, Funny

      What I'm wondering is why no one here has yet suggested that the person buys 7 pieces of beef jerky and then just eats them. I know that's what I'd do.

      --
      try { Signature mysig = new CleverAttempt(); } catch(NonCleverSignatureException e) { postanyway(); }
    6. Re:RIAA seeks $1 million for seven songs by srleffler · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The money=labour equation, while valuable, misses how investment works. There are two ways to make money: by labour or by taking on risk. If you buy something and resell it elsewhere at a higher price, some of that final price reflects the labour that went into producing the thing and in moving it from the seller to the subsequent buyer. Some of the price reflects the risk you took in the deal. By buying the thing, you took a risk that you would not be able to sell it for more than you paid. The profit you made on the deal compensates you for the risk you took. If there were no risk, someone would be willing to sell the item for less. Someone starting a business invests labour in producing their product, but also takes a risk: they may lose the money they put into starting the business. Outside investors (eg. in the stock market) take some or all of that risk away from the founders of the company. They make money not because they add labour but because they take risk.

    7. Re:RIAA seeks $1 million for seven songs by garett_spencley · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It ignores investment because the only way that investment can pay off is through labour. The risk taker fronts his labour (since money is the promise of labour) with the expectation that he will be payed back with interest (interest being one of two ways that investment can ever enrich anyone - the other being the collection of collateral). The reality is that thanks to the addition of interest all debt can never be repayed because there isn't enough money in circulation (which is why we view investment as being risk). It's also why we have perpetual inflation.

      When you consider that there simply is not enough money in circulation to repay all debt it becomes clear that investment is a scheme to exploit labour. It pays off for some people but it is not viable long term. The only reason that investment banks create the illusion of viability is thanks to the fractional reserve system and the safety net of the central bank (which both lead to perpetual inflation). The reality is that investment banks don't actually risk anything. They create money out of thin air (inflation) when they lend and they seize property when the loans are defaulted on. When the economy goes sour and banks stop lending the central banks cut interest rates, increasing their lending to commercial banks and more people end up in debt. Those people then seek employment/labour to repay it.

      This isn't to say that banks never collapse due to poor investment practices. It happened as recently as 2008. It just means that in order for investment to pay off someone, somewhere has to loose.

  4. Send me a copy by jep77 · · Score: 5, Funny

    I was wondering if someone could send me a recorded copy of the stream since I won't be able to watch it live.

    1. Re:Send me a copy by eth1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I was wondering if someone could send me a recorded copy of the stream since I won't be able to watch it live.

      You're modded funny, but if they were to use BitTorrent to distribute the recorded proceedings after the fact it would provide an example of an unambiguously legitimate use for such things that judges would be able to identify with. :)

  5. I thought the revolution... by AKAImBatman · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...was not going to be televised? So much for common wisdom. :-P

  6. Well... by Darundal · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...they bought the rope, measured the proper length of it, cut it, tied it to a tree, formed one end into a noose, gingerly placed their grinning heads in the noose and tightened it, and now we get to see the looks on their faces when someone who saw their preceding actions takes the logical steps and kicks the stool out from under them.

  7. Can I find it... by internerdj · · Score: 4, Funny

    on bittorrent?

  8. Not all of it... yet by Xelios · · Score: 4, Informative

    The current order is only for the hearing on Jan 22, as NYCL pointed out, which only involves the legal arguments for motions entered by the Defendant's counsel. Further coverage of the rest of the case will be decided then. The judge made a lot of sense in her opinion though, I especially liked this bit:

    "Public" today has a new resonance, especially in this case. The claims and issues at stake involve the internet, file-sharing practices, and digital copyright protections. The Defendants are primarily members of a generation that has grown up with the internet, who get their news from it, rather than from the traditional forms of public communication, such as newspapers or television. Indeed, these cases have generated widespread public attention, much of it on the internet. Under the circumstances, the particular relief requested -- "narrowcasting" this proceeding to a public website -- is uniquely appropriate.

    Nice to see judges are starting to catch up to this generation.

    --
    Murphey's fighting Occam, and we're in the stands.
  9. One problem... by Kabuthunk · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The problem is, if the RIAA wins by some convoluted twist of the law (of which they've gotten quite good at twisting by this point), no amount of losses will be able to wipe the smug look from their faces after winning the case on live TV. At which point, the industry is doomed.

    Never think that the RIAA is doomed. They always come back.

    --
    Planet Zebeth - Metroid with a twist
    1. Re:One problem... by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well, should they win, the "jury" box failed. Time for the next one.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:One problem... by erroneus · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If they win, they will lose. If they lose, they will lose.

      Most people just think that big media is a bunch of greedy assholes. Putting them out in the public serves to prove that big media is a bunch of greedy assholes.

      And as to what I mean by "if they win, they will lose" I mean to say that seeing the RIAA win in a big case like that, people will know to steer clear of anything associated with the RIAA. An effective majority tapes, records or shares music once in a while. The practice is quite literally a part of our daily lives. If the public sees someone lose their lives through a lawsuit, you can bet it will not cause people to rush out and legitimize their collection by buying more stuff. No, they will look to alternatives. They lose.

      And if they lose, they will lose. The results may not be as dramatic as if they were to win, but at least it gives further data for study and reference when building a defence for the next case they bring.

  10. Nonono, you got it wrong by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Informative

    Of course the RIAA wants the public to hear about this case to deter anyone downloading their stuff.

    But they want people to hear it from them. Not directly from the court proceedings. Any idiot knows that your statements are only half as powerful if the other side can retort. And few people are interested in hearling both sides of the story, unless it is hassle free do hear it, they're perfectly happy when they just hear one side telling them "the truth". Do you have an idea how incredibly harder it gets to spin something when the other side can call you bluff and show that you're lying through your teeth?

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  11. Now we'll see if the rumors are true! by thered2001 · · Score: 5, Funny

    I once heard that vampires don't show up on camera. Now we'll know one way or another!

    --

    If your only tool is a hammer, every problem becomes a nail.

  12. Justice by mlwmohawk · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Having read the order, I get the sense that the Judge really really understands what is going on and is not going to let them weasel out of their own lies.

    The Judge is going to take their claims perfectly literally with no prejudice. They say that they want public knowledge of the suits, thus, she finds it "curious" that they don't want it televised. So, she takes them at their word (wanting public knowledge of the law suits) and "helps" them do what they say they claim to want to do.

    Unlike judges before her, she knows they are lying. They know they are lying. Nesson knows they are lying. The case is a blackmail scam and everyone involved knows it, this time, even the judge.

    They are stuck because these are counter claims, and while I'm not a lawyer, even if BMG/Sony drop the suit, I believe the counter claims live on. So, they can't drop it. They have to fight a Harvard Law Professor and his students, and it will all be public for display.

    I'm going to buy some popcorn and watch.

    1. Re:Justice by mlwmohawk · · Score: 4, Informative

      It won;t escalate like most of us would like. When it's looking like things will go bad, they'll "settle" and not allow it to follow through making a precedent.

      In a counter claim, the defendant has to "agree" to settle, and I don't think Nesson and his students are looking to do that.

  13. DISCLAIMER: by hendrix2k · · Score: 5, Funny

    "Any rebroadcast, reproduction, or other use of the pictures and accounts of this hearing without the express written consent of the Recording Industry Association of America is prohibited and will be subjected to a fine of no less than $1 million per infraction."

  14. Re:Could it be that by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 4, Funny

    they have really ugly lawyers?

    No. Like most aliens who walk among us impersonating humans, they have modified their appearance.

    --
    Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful