Slashdot Mirror
Mars Desert Research Station Simulates Mars Base
An anonymous reader writes "Placing humans on Mars will be an extraordinary feat in itself, not to mention even living in such a harsh environment. To help train future astronauts to sustain life on Mars, the Mars Society has created the Mars Desert Research Station. The Mars Desert Research Station (MDRS) is one of four planned simulated Mars habitats (or Mars Analogue Research Station Programme) maintained by the Mars Society. Crews sign up for two week shifts during the winter months (it's too hot in the summer for pleasant simulation). Crews are not paid during their time at the station, but do get valuable experience."
But where are the simulated martians?
"lacing humans on Mars will be an extraordinary feat in itself"
Obama has already made space exploration a back burner issue, so it's a nice idea but realistically we won't be seeing a mission to put a man on Mars anytime in the next 4 years. Maybe it would be better to vote in a guy who wasn't so hostile towards pure research next time.
"Explore Mars now" has a great 3D mockup of all the Bunks, Galleys, wardrooms and other parts that would make up a Mars base. http://www.exploremarsnow.org/
I look forward to this moving to completion so I can juggle on Mars too. :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvp8m8CqIDc
Chuck Norris was the first one to Mars, that's why there are no signs of life.
Nevermind that we're still learning the basics of the chemical composition and the true environment of Mars, we have a group of people who think they can accurately recreate it. While their goals are noble, it looks like it's more a society of "enthusiasts" rather than people who actually have a real knowledge and understanding of what's involved (though there are some of them working on the project).
Finally!!!
"Crews are not paid during their time at the station, but do get valuable experience." I hope they will at least give them head scarves to protect from the sand storms
Wait, they haven't planted any corn on Mars yet...
Two weeks of vacation rent free!
Except you can breath the outside atmosphere, the gravity is Earth-normal, and emergency help is much closer. Otherwise, a great simulation of life on Mars. (An Antarctic simulation lab would be a bit closer to the mark.)
If your only tool is a hammer, every problem becomes a nail.
Can we sign up CowboyNeil?
can't breathe the outside atmosphere, gravity is normal but pressure is not, and emergency help is generally not an option if something goes wrong.
Subs can do fine for months on end autonomously, why wouldn't those habitation systems be a decent blueprint for a mars bio-dome? (probably don't need nuclear propulsion or torpedos. but who knows)
A desert sim might be good in tandem with Antartica.
I totally agree with the deep logistics problem of "You're stuck here past day 30" when the glamor shots for the press die down.
Antartica would be nightside, Desert would be Dayside and can help test heat specs and sand tolerances.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
The Mars Society - Mars Desert Research Station
"Trusting every aspect of our lives to a giant computer was the smartest thing we ever did.." Homer Simpson
Who said the simulation had to be pleasant? It's a harsh environment, remember- nobody said living on Mars was going to be 'pleasant'. This is extreme survival- to answer the question whether human life is possible not just in extreme environments on earth, but on another planet altogether. Now, if it's too hot to make for a *realistic* simulation, that's another matter altogether. But if they're going to be complaining that the simulation isn't 'pleasant', human life on other planets is doomed already.
Visit http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/growingbettersoftware to download your free copy of the book
This is stupendously stupid and idiotic.
The most BASIC problem has yet to be solved : how do we loft things into orbit without blowing $10,000 of taxpayer money per kilogram? Every last dollar of the manned space division of NASA SHOULD go into solving this problem, FIRST.
THEN, once it is cheap and easy to put stuff into orbit, and only then, do we work out how to put up a real space station, then a trip to the moon, then to mars. In roughly that order.
And before you say something dumb like "well, a modern Saturn V is as cheap as possible"...no. Disposable giant rockets aren't cheap, they are just cheaper than rube goldberg spaceplanes (aka shuttle)
What do I think will work? Probably laser launch. LED Solid state laser technology is finally cheap enough that we could use infrared lasers to blast spaceships into orbit. Instead of one launch every few months, a laser launch system would fire a smaller payload off daily. After a few thousand successful unmanned launches, we would buy more laser modules and launch small manned capsules, probably one person at at time. (with a laser launch system, you can run the solid state lasers all day, so long as you pay the power bill. But adding more capacity costs money)
Rotons, or space elevators, or a railgun, or Saturn Vs made in China, or various other 'out there' ideas might also work. The point is, we need to keep working on better ideas until we get one of them to work, and then worry about conquering Mars.
Mars has a 24ish hour day like Earth (24h39m35s), so there is no dayside and nightside on Mars any more than there is on Earth. Temperatures during the day on Mars can get as high as 0C, and at night they can get as cold as -100C. The best places to simulate Mars would be a high mountaintop, like Everest, or K2.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
The colonization of Mars is one of the stupidest of ideas conceived by humanity. (A) The individuals involved have no understanding with respect to the DNA damage which could occur on a trip to/from Mars. (which of course makes such astronauts ripe for dying of cancer in contrast to their several % lifetime risk which is the allowable increase for current missions) and (B) if they reside on Mars for an extended period they will accumulate even more significant radiation damage.
(1) If you want to go to Mars (and colonize it) (before it is dismantled -- see Matrioshka Brain concepts) *you need a new species*.) It does not need to be too different from us. It could still interbreed with us. But it definitely needs to be engineered to withstand the rigors of space (and that needs significantly more complex DNA repair systems).
(2) Why is there no discussion of creating a species which could colonize Mars? Is there some (flawed) concept that only "God" can create species?
Arctic simulation isn't that far off. Any martian base would need to be near a water supply, which are most accessible at the poles. Only problem is on Mars, Arctic Winter is 11 months instead of 6.
Arctic simulation isn't that far off. Any martian base would need to be near a water supply, which are most accessible at the poles. Only problem is on Mars, Arctic Winter is 11 months instead of 6.
Good points. The thing about a mountaintop location is that you get year-round, continuous cold and a thin atmosphere. (Not as thin as Mars, mind you, but possibly thin enough to work with.)
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
this is not a Mars simulator, but an elaborate soundstage. They just got caught before filming the successful Mars mission.
LETS DECOMPOSE & ENJOY ASSEMBLING
I just wasted about 15 minutes of my life looking over this thread and I have to say I'm fascinated.
> Moderately funny comment
>> Strange non sequitur attempt at political humor
>>> Openly racist, long-winded slur
>>>> Stupid attempt at humor after making said slur
>>>>> Masturbatory over-analysis of thread
This analysis was made after looking through the racist poster's previous comments to see that he isn't a perennial troll, but has made several Insightful and Informative posts recently.
What does it all mean? Why did I bother posting this? Shouldn't I get some work done?
Oh the humanity!
I had the honor of being on MDRS Crew 65 about a year ago. What an amazing experience, when 6 space nerds who had never met before get locked up in the Utah desert for 2 weeks. (I smell "sitcom"!) It was a lot of fun, cold and hard work and I definitely plan to go back at some point. For the gent who was wanting to juggle on "Mars"...sorry, been done before. :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjxqIEmKQCw
before it is dismantled -- see Matrioshka Brain concepts
Ah yes, humans living on Mars is impossible, but building Solar System scale projects is not. Let's keep in mind that the former is a lot easier to accomplish than the latter.
Why is there no discussion of creating a species which could colonize Mars? Is there some (flawed) concept that only "God" can create species?
Oh there is plenty of discussion. But why create a species when appropriate species (humans, other intelligent Earth life) already exist? Radiation? That's an engineering problem. Solved either via enough shielding or some sort of radiation resistance. If it makes you feel more comfortable, we can even call them "new" species.
Seriously, there should be a simulation where the habitat module is actually within a larger structure and the larger structure has the sand/dirt, light conditions, and a nice matte painting of "Mars" and then be set to STP of Mars.
Living inside the habitat, knowing death is outside, makes for a more believable simulation and that all safety checklists are done.
(of course there would be an emergency button that instantly blows open some hatches in the larger structure to quickly convert it to Earth STP, should something get screwed up.)
Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, START
"significantly more complex DNA repair systems"...?
Is it even possible to outlaw mutation? Viral plasticity trumps genetic engineering.
``Tension, apprehension & dissension have begun!'' - Duffy Wyg&, in Alfred Bester's _The Demolished Man_
So are they going to make a special hole in the atmosphere over the base so they can pelt them with solar radiation?
Mars Society is an idealistic organization that actually thinks most governments will do what is in general best for all people. This goes entire against human nature as each government will do what is in the best interest of the country.
From the Mars Society people I have met... most are dreams and idealists. It is a good society to have as they help inspire new ideas but the interpretation and implementation will look quite different when government and political bodies are done with it.
Viral plasticity trumps genetic engineering.
...on average ;-)
The thing about a mountaintop location is that you get year-round, continuous cold and a thin atmosphere.
And wind, lots of wind - how windy is Mars?
Want a better mar simulation?
Put five people in a sailboat and have them circumnavigate the Earth twice. Tell them they can't come back into port until they finish.
Communications from a sail boat is via HF marine radio. The boat will not have much power so contact is only daily. They will be living in close quarters but with huge amounts of space all arond them. They will need to eat about the same kinds of food as on a trip to mars. They will have to fix things. And just like in space when soething goes wrong you can't call 911.
Is it even possible to outlaw mutation? Viral plasticity trumps genetic engineering.
That's what she said!
Of course there is. Even on earth we have a day side and a night side. Neither is permanently in the same place, just the same as on mars. Otherwise it wouldn't be day or night would it ?
You can simulate the night side or winter of mars by going to antarctica, and the day side or summer by going to an earth desert in winter, maybe peru or the steppes of Russia. Nobody said you have to do them both twice a day !
Plus the maximum temp. on mars is around 20C not 0C, and the minimums can reach -140C.
Wind speeds on Mars are much higher than on Earth due to the very low atmospheric pressure. Speeds of up to 400 km/h can be triggered by the polar 'melt' (sublimation of CO2) during the summer.
I think the best way to simulate living on Mars would be to build an underground installation. Go to a cold barren climate like the Alaskan tundra or North Dakota, then excavate a cavern about 100 meters in diameter and 50 meters deep that is entirely subterranean. You could then accurately simulate many aspects of the environment as follows.
Atmosphere: Reinforce the walls of the cavern so you can pump all the air out, then fill the cavern with an atmosphere containing the same density and composition as Mars. The astronauts' habitats would be constructed inside this environment, and they would have to wear actual functioning spacesuits to work in the environment.
Temperature: Use compressors and heaters to create temperature variations to simulate Martian days and nights.
Soil: Create an artificial soil several meters deep similar to what has been found on Mars, in terms of chemical composition, pH, density, etc.
Light: Use artificial lighting to simulate Martian days and nights, using the same low luminosity and the 24.6 hour day.
Combining all these factors, you could potentially create a simulation very similar to Mars except for the lower gravity. A project like this would require billions of dollars in funding, but if you're serious about testing a Mars habitat, or even a lunar habitat, this seems like the way to go.
Take off every Sig. For great justice.
Radiation is solvable with current technology, even for a deep space mission like a mars or moon base, where the Earth's protective field is absent. There are several approaches to this problem, from heavy shielding to burrowing into the soil. One particularly elegant solution IMO is recrerating the Earth's magnetic field abord the spacecraft.
Simple, inject a virus that only attacks mutated human cells into the region's water supply.
New Twix anyone?
Then why not set up a simulation on Northern Canada or someplace similar. The temperature is close and precipitation is actually pretty low.
Plus, they'll gain experience dealing with the inevitable Martian polar bear they'll encounter.
Have gnu, will travel.
When you merge the two words day and side, and then capitalize them, you are implying the sunward facing half of a tidally locked planet. We have a day side and a night side, but we do not have a Dayside and Nightside.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
From what I understand, Mars can get very windy...winds meeting/exceeding tornado/hurricane speeds here. But due to the 'thinness' of Mars' atmosphere, it would enable you to fly a kite instead of seek heavy shelter.
My 'Pulled_From_My_Ass' numbers are based loosely (Heh! this is /. - should it be losely?) from here. (see:Effect of dust storms:"The low density of the Martian atmosphere means that winds of 40 to 50 mph (18 to 22 m/s) are needed to lift dust from the surface, but since Mars is so dry, the dust can stay in the atmosphere far longer than on Earth, where it is soon washed out by rain."
Too lazy to find out if I'm too ignorant to do the math at the moment....and a car analogy doesn't come to mind at the moment.
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
My wife did not plan that mission, you insensitive clod!
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
Must...Resist...Obvious...Joke!...argh! Too weak!:
"In order to get them off..."
"All you need is pr0n!"
*sing to the tune of: All You Need Is Love[by the Beatles]....makes the world go round!
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
They must eat silkworms http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/01/14/1540220 if they want to have some real feel to it.
You raise the point of the transition period. When nanotechnology engineering is impossible to when it is easy.
Pick a time frame and justify it. In my mind it is within the next 50 years. Choose to refute that or not. Because once the disassembly of Mars is feasible then all bets regarding colonizing it are off.
Wouldn't it be easier to reconfigure the moon landing soundstage?
Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
In your mind.
I think it reasonable not to assume particular scenarios about the future. Perhaps something will develope and deploy the technology to break up Mars in the next 50 years. I think there are various reasons they do not, even if they do have this technology. First, humans have a legal claim to Mars and other large bodies in the Solar System. Sure you can come up with scenarios where legal claims by humans do not matter or are undefined (either because humans don't exist any more or there is no legal system). But there are also scenarios where these claims are honored. Second, Mars is one of the few places in the Solar System where terrestrial life can exist without the need for technological aid. These could be highly valued as insurance against some complete technological disaster. An adrift orbital structure will eventually run into things and damage its structural integrity. A gravitationally bound ball of dirt is inherently stable.
Hopefully they learn from the mistakes of BioSphere2.
Like: no ordering out for pizza, no leting your SO in for nookie, and concrete takes a very long time to cure and uses oxygen throughout the process.
-- Terry