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Wozniak Accepts Post At a Storage Systems Start-Up

Hugh Pickens writes "Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak is going back to work as chief scientist at Fusion-io, a start-up company that tweaks computers to let them tap vast amounts of storage at very quick rates. In the early days of Apple, Wozniak stood out as one of Silicon Valley's most creative engineers, demonstrating a knack for elegant computer designs that made efficient use of components and combined many features into a cohesive package and Wozniak will do similar work at Fusion-io, although this time with larger server computers and storage systems rather than PCs. 'I have a pretty quiet life, and I like to watch technology evolve,' says Wozniak. 'In this case, I like the people and the product, and said I would like some greater involvement.'"

33 of 183 comments (clear)

  1. Good - Stay Busy by maz2331 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's always good to stay busy, and doubly so if you can actually do something that helps grow the existing technology.

    And if he can make some cash from this gig, even better!

    Go Woz!

    1. Re:Good - Stay Busy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      I hope he can do more than 1 Gig. Let's aim for petabytes, shall we?

    2. Re:Good - Stay Busy by Anthony_Cargile · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Well, he does until the company gets too big then he'll leave out of dissatisfaction. He has stated this, and you almost can't blame him: little usually= friendly, personal, tight; big usually= formal, !personal, and sometimes even evil.

      Regardless, he is a very skilled hardware hacker. I especially appreciate still to this day the ADB, which was designed (according to legend) in a mere weekend, on the same level of hack-skill as the "Joy wrote vi in a weekend" hacker lore. I just hope he never loses his ability for great pranks, too - that's another personal hero element he has for me.

      Keep it up woz, never change.

    3. Re:Good - Stay Busy by eln · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Heck, if I had the financial freedom to do so, I'd probably spend my time jumping around between startups too. The startup phase is in a lot of ways the best part of a company's life. It's full of boundless optimism and exciting work. It's also full of staggering risk and the ever-present specter of catastrophic failure too, which is why it's not right for everyone.

      My brain loves working for startups, but my wallet doesn't. In Woz's case, he doesn't have to worry about the wallet part, so more power to him.

    4. Re:Good - Stay Busy by hitmark · · Score: 3, Insightful

      a good leader knows when not to lead...

      still, im not sure apple is that big, in a number of employees sense. this allowing them to be more agile, and also allows jobs to keep overwatch, in true control freak fashion.

      btw, jobs was never much of a engineer. woz have rated him mediocre at best. jobs was always more of a fast talking marketing man.

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
  2. SSD == Turning Point by dsginter · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've had the chance to play with some pretty phenomenal solid state drives (SSD) lately and, I have to say, that I can't believe that there isn't more industry buzz.

    In a few months, an extra $100 will probably buy 120GB SSD, which will make a given PC perform like something completely different (you really need to go test drive an SSD PC if you have not yet indulged).

    In a decade, I can see handhelds having so much storage and so much processing power, that we'll all just carry around our PC-on-a-phone and just use a standard interface to put that PC on any external monitor and keyboard. Hell, I can USB boot Ubuntu from my Blackberry, already.

    --
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    1. Re:SSD == Turning Point by Anthony_Cargile · · Score: 5, Insightful

      phenomenal solid state drives

      Combine the fast access of flash with the organization and optimizations I've seen in ext4, and you'll have an incredible system at the non-volatile storage level, which to me has always fallen behind other advancements like GPUs, processor speed/bus width, and RAM pricing/addressability (goes in hand with 64-bit processors).

      With this in mind, I eagerly look forward to my next system because of the long-awaited storage advancements over the last few years, mainly due to filesystem development (well, Linux filesystem development) and SSDs. The only gripe I have right now is the cost, which is falling steadily anyway (despite the economy) so that won't matter when its time to shop around :).

    2. Re:SSD == Turning Point by ouachiski · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In a decade, I can see handhelds having so much storage and so much processing power, that we'll all just carry around our PC-on-a-phone and just use a standard interface to put that PC on any external monitor and keyboard.

      Ok I have heard this a million times now and I just dont see it happening. Cell phones are easily lost, broken, dropped in toilets or stolen. Could you imagine what you would feel if you dropped your pc in the toilet. I can see integrating more tasks into it, but you will still have a need for a base station.

      --
      sorry for my comments, I'm drunk
    3. Re:SSD == Turning Point by symbolset · · Score: 5, Informative

      The expected lifetime on the Intel X25-e is about 24 years in an enterprise server. The products of the company in TFA likewise. Use of SLC, sparing, internal error detection and correction, wear levelling and virtual block addressing add up to devices that are not only ridiculously fast - they also last a long time and degrade gracefully (pdf).

      Both the Intel SSDs and the IODrive are internally massively parallel.

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    4. Re:SSD == Turning Point by zippthorne · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But your base station need not be in your house. Your base station could be network-based storage.

      You wouldn't feel too bad about dropping your PC in the toilet if you could get another one at CVS for the price of a couple packs of razor blades.

      Such a PC won't be a game station, or scientific number-cruncher, but it could satisfy a rather large niche that is only just now being developed.

      Frankly, though, I'm surprised no one has taken a palm, given it a dock that hooks up directly to a large (B&W) LCD monitor and keyboard, as a typewriting and email device.

      --
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    5. Re:SSD == Turning Point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      > 120GB SSD, which will make a given PC perform like something completely different

      I take it you've not actually used one of those pieces of garbage yet. My boss bought a dozen of them for our devs, and every single one of the devs has since rejected them. While the read speed and the write speed of the SSD's aren't bad, they're slow as crap when you mix small writes with reads. You know like you do with real world systems like compiling software and with certain database usage patterns. To do a small write, the Flash RAM has to read the entire block into memory and then write the entire block back. With our web service project written in C#/.NET, the compile time increased from just over three minutes with a SAS drive to over nine minutes with one of those SSD pieces of crap.

    6. Re:SSD == Turning Point by sarabob · · Score: 3, Informative

      Which is why fusion-io is different from normal SSDs. The devices have 20% or more spare capacity and use a log-based FS with block mapping, so your writes don't go through the read/erase/rewrite cycle.

      Obviously there is a little slowdown once the 20% has been used up and it goes into garbace-collection mode, but there are plenty of white papers around about steady-state usage (ie once it has started GC) and you can opt to use even less of the physical capacity in order to get more performance. See http://www.oracle.com/technology/deploy/performance/pdf/OracleFlash15.pdf for example.

    7. Re:SSD == Turning Point by xlotlu · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I want to say that in 5 years the mechanical, magnetic hard drive will be dead, but something tells me that the density will give it an edge for quite a while longer than that unless some major breakthrough occurs in the manufacture of SSD.

      Actually in 5 years' time they might be back with a vengeance. See this guy's thesis about Laser-Induced Femtosecond Magnetic Recording

      He proved in 2007 that it's possible to use an ultrafast pulsing lasers for demagnetization and magnetization reversal, unleashing a potential recording rate of magnetic media higher than 100 Tbits/second.

      Of course, packing femtosecond lasers inside HDDs is nowhere near feasible in the foreseeable future, and neither could the plasmon antennae keep up with the high density (plasmon antennae were expected to be used for polarizing light below its wavelength)

      However, according to TFOT, during his Seagate internship Stanciu proved the technology is viable, mostly because of recent developments in plasmon antennae. He also chose to use picosecond lasers instead, which are substantially cheaper and smaller, but slower, at "only" 1 Tbits/s.

      IIRC laser-reading from magnetic media was already possible a few years ago, at huge speeds as well. That makes the potential of magnetic storage already hundreds of times faster than the expected maximum throughput of NAND-based SSDs.

  3. My Hero! by the_B0fh · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Woz was always my hero. I was just a pimply faced kid when I first discovered Apple IIs (or more correctly, Apple II compatibles, since I was from a 3rd world country). Then I started reading about what he did, and his designs and so on. And when AAPL went public, he gave away his own shares to people who helped Apple get off the ground. Very very nice, very down to earth guy, from what I read about him. IIRC, he wanted to sell the Apple Is for $200 or so, and Jobs wanted $2000, and they settled on $666.66.

    I was so disappointed when he left Apple and quit working on the Apple II series - that was such a great computer, and ahead of its times.

    1. Re:My Hero! by dmomo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      HA!

      If the mere act of this man taking a job with a start up is enough to make front page Slashdot news... and you call that being a loser. I want to be upgraded to a loser! Where do I sign up?

    2. Re:My Hero! by MrEricSir · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Jobs = marketing guy
      Wozniak = engineering geek

      If you prefer Jobs over Woz, you're at the wrong website.

      --
      There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
    3. Re:My Hero! by bhtooefr · · Score: 4, Informative

      OK, let's look at what was available in 1976, when the Apple-1 came out.

      In single-board computers, which the Apple-1 was... there was, what, the KIM-1? Amazingly primitive compared to the Apple-1.

      In backplane computers, there were the S100 bus machines, which cost significantly more to do what the Apple-1 could do with one board.

      Now, for the C64... it came out in 1982, no? Of course some features are going to be advanced beyond what the Apple II could offer at the time. Keep in mind, though, that the Apple II was still quite competitive against the C64.

      The Amiga... I'm not gonna dispute that it had better hardware than the Mac. (Although, the Mac arguably had a more intuitive UI.) But, I will use the Apple IIGS, which had by far the best sound chip of anything in its time. (Yes, I'm fully aware that this sound chip was gimped by not offering stereo sound without an add-on board. But still.)

      Plus, the Apple II did offer quite a lot of expansion, which is something that many of its competitors lacked (or didn't do as well.)

    4. Re:My Hero! by webagogue · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Right... it must be marketing that makes my iMac and suite of iLife and iWork tools with the neato Unix underpinnings work so well together. Woz made stuff. Jobs made stuff work well. BOTH are important.

      --

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  4. Woz - the apple of your i by the+positive+path+ · · Score: 3, Funny

    Good for Steve! The world needs more minds like his in the game.

  5. ron on sentence much? by liquidsin · · Score: 3, Funny

    In the early days of Apple, Wozniak stood out as one of Silicon Valley's most creative engineers demonstrating a knack for elegant computer designs that made efficient use of components and combined many features into a cohesive package and Wozniak will do similar work at Fusion-io, although this time with larger server computers and storage systems rather than PCs.

    For the sake of easy readability, I'd like to give the grammar nazis somewhere to file all of their remarks.

    --
    do not read this line twice.
  6. Woz == "down to earth" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I had a very brief close encounter with him, in which I got to ride his Segway. He was, indeed, eminently approachable, with absolutely no "mightier than thou" attitude, self-assured, willing to engage, and very affirming to talk to.

    (And that was *before* I recognized him!)

  7. ZFS and SSDs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've had the chance to play with some pretty phenomenal solid state drives (SSD) lately and, I have to say, that I can't believe that there isn't more industry buzz.

    Depends on who you ask. The Sun ZFS guys are all over this and are screaming at the top of their lungs about the use of SSDs for both read and write performance:

    http://blogs.sun.com/brendan/entry/l2arc_screenshots
    http://blogs.sun.com/ahl/entry/hybrid_storage_pools_in_cacm
    http://blogs.sun.com/main/tags/fishworks

    Sun many have other problems, but engineering talent is not one of them.

  8. It'll be interesting to see what he comes up with. by jd · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Storage systems are not trivial pieces of hardware and the range of approaches for handling the problem is staggering.

    In the red corner, you've your basic NAS and SAN solutions. In the blue corner, you've direct-disk-to-memory systems using RDMA and Infiniband. In the green corner, you've WAN solutions (SCSI-over-IP, RAID-over-IP).

    In the purple corner, you've smarter drives (virtual sectors, filesystems in hardware). In the cyan corner, you've more powerful hardware (many read heads per platter, uber-large RAM caches).

    (Knowing Wozniak's reputation for doing things different, he's probably inventing a rhododendron corner.)

    There is no shortage of opportunity. However, as with the early home computer market, there is a shortage of consensus on what a storage system actually does, other than "store stuff". That seems to be a world Wozniak does well in - the lack of standards meant the Apple II did well, the presence of standards meant that NeXT didn't. In the current computing world, where standards are everything (especially if they come with pretty holographic stickers), can he do much with the flexibility in the arena?

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  9. Re:if I had a penny for every failed distributed F by Anthony_Cargile · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Want another penny? Here you go:

    A cloud-distributed filesystem using each processor's bottom 2 or 3 general-purpose registers as a block for said filesystem, writing the contents only during certain times, or during periods of low access. This allows for lightning fast storage retrieval perfect for a database or large amounts of quickly updating information that needs to be retrieved just as fast, even better if archiving is not preferred after a brief period (think ticker tape), despite the possible redundancy of a RAID backup using said timing mentioned above. limiting factors are the speed of the reader(s), network speed, and bus bandwidth. Registers not used for storage are used for typical processing, aided by the amount of processors involved in cloud computing (think blue-gene).

    There ya go, maybe I should make my own startup now?

  10. Re:Since the WSJ couldn't write a tech description by bhtooefr · · Score: 3, Informative

    The "specialized BIOS" would be a ROM on the card itself - you can boot off of a PCIe SATA or SAS controller, just like you can boot off of a PCI PATA or SATA controller, just like you could boot off of an ISA ST506 or PATA controller.

  11. Re:It'll be interesting to see what he comes up wi by HockeyPuck · · Score: 3, Informative

    Let me translate this for you...

    These are "LAN Solutions"
    "SCSI-over-IP" - iSCSI
    "RAID-over-IP" - some volume manager sitting on top of iSCSI

    "WAN Solutions":
    WAFS (Wide Area File Services) from the likes of Cisco or Riverbed. They optimize CIFS/NFS protocols which are horrible over high latency links.

    Infiniband... Dying... besides infiniband used SCSI over IB to a IB to FibreChannel gateway.

    Don't forget tape and our friend FICON.

    Where can he be flexible? In the past few years we've seen the adoption of:

    -Virtual Tape Libraries (tho they've been in the mainframe world for ages)
    -Deduplication in Hardware
    -Encryption of Data at Rest (in the tape drive; and now in the disk drive)

    We've got plenty of CPU power with multi core systems... what about using that for Compression? (Sorry StorageTek did that in the 80s on their Iceberg (aka IBM's RVA Subsystem).

    I don't need more capacity, I need to be able to manage it easier.

  12. Re:I didn't do my homework by symbolset · · Score: 4, Informative

    In other words, Yet Another Half-Baked Clustered/Distributed Filesystem we can add to the list of dozens of failed distributed/clustered filesystems.

    Um... not even close?

    This isn't a clustered/distributed anything. It's also not "virtual".

    It's a very real, very fast, local storage for very real computers - servers mostly, but if you've got a few grand to blow on an extreme gaming rig, why not go the extra bit to make your levels load faster?

    Their quoted numbers are per PCIe X4 device >100,000 IOPS and >640MB/s both reading and writing, and they have independent benchmarks back that up. They're not kidding. The game has changed. This changes everything about how traditional workloads are configured, when you use a SAN vs local disk, how much throughput your apps can get, how many VMs you can run in a server... basically everything in the server world except where you store the data. You still want to store the data in the SAN for redundancy reasons.

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  13. be new here by be+new+here · · Score: 5, Funny

    You must be new here.

    No, I be new here!

    --
    I got some bad grammar
  14. Forget SSD... by solios · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...yeah, it's the buzzword. It's the current growth area.

    Let's consider what The Woz did for floppies Back In The Day. While the early floppy drives are to modern drives the way the Wright Brothers plane is comparable to the B2 Stealth Bomber.... the fact is, The Woz turned the industry on its head. While in one light his contributions can be viewed as an incremental improvement, in every other light, HOLY CRAP HE KICKED SO MUCH ASS when it came to primordial microcomputer disk controllers. He proved that the highest-tech, super-chip-count hyper-expensive controllers could be implemented with a handful of chips.

    And he could - COULD! - do it again.

    I'm totally behind some company - ANY company - throwing money at The Woz, betting on the off chance he gets another flash of insight and pushes storage technology 20 years further ahead in as many minutes.

    Was Woz the Right Genius at the Right Time, or is he a straight-up Hacker's Hacker, who just needs the right operational conditions for his genius to manifest?

    Time will tell.

  15. Re:I didn't do my homework by SQL+Error · · Score: 3, Informative

    We have these in our production servers right now. They really deliver. They seem to top out at around 60,000 IOPS with EXT3 (the 100K figure was with XFS) but I've hit close to 800MB/s on sequential transfers.

  16. Re:Since the WSJ couldn't write a tech description by Hal_Porter · · Score: 3, Informative

    It would have an Option ROM, like RAID cards and every other bootable controller does
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Option_ROM

    Not using a SATA interface should yield a good performance advantage.

    Rock on, Woz

    You could have an option Rom, or you could just emulate AHCI (or even ATA) in hardware up to the point the OS loads a native driver, and switch to native mode after that.

    Actually I sort of wonder if you couldn't implement an AHCI contoller which talks to flash directly. The bottleneck in SATA is the drive and the SATA bus, not the PCI Express AHCI controller. PCI-E x16 can manage 4,000 MB/s compared to SATA2's 300 MB/s. SATA2 has plenty of bandwidth for a hard disk, but it looks like it will become a bottleneck with an SSD with lots of flash chips running in parallel. In fact an 2.5 inch Intel extreme SSD manages 250MB/sec now, pretty close to the SATA limit. A PCI Express card covered in NAND flash aimed at enterprise servers could easily be more parallel than this.

    AHCI is quite flexible (it has efficient NCQ for example) and is already supported by all current OSs and Bioses. There's no reason why you couldn't design a wide flash array on a PCI express card that looks like a fast drive behind an AHCI controller to software.

    The upside to this is that there is no device driver and option Rom to develop/support.

    --
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  17. Re:There is another major drawback by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Not this crap again.
    The 100k writes is per block.
    If a block fails, it just doesn't get used again, and the chip continues working.
    Similarly, it's easy to say that once you've hit 100k blocks, you don't write to that block ever again.

    There's a metric fucking shit-ton of blocks in today's SSDs, and they will last longer than the warranty on your slow, noisy, power hungry mechanical harddrive.

    What's that? You use harddrives that are out of warranty?
    LOL.

  18. Re:No, we DID NOT figure it out. by symbolset · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I could, indeed, write a piece of code that would wear out parts of your SSD within days.

    Could you? Would you fill the disk almost completely full, and then write and delete the last block over and over with random data 100,000 times per second?

    Gee, if they had though of that they might have done something really clever like include a RAM cache and a thousand extra blocks you can't see, and happily report the block written and deleted when it really wasn't, or actually write it to a different physical block each time. They might have had a stroke of genius and included logic to move least-written data to the heavily used blocks and let you bang on fresh ones now and then. It would take a real men of genius engineer to predict this pathological case and include a special purpose computer onboard to deal with it. At least it would if the engineers didn't read slashdot where we've discussed these problems to death for years and years.

    They would have done it transparently in the device logic without even telling you because the device is solid state and every bit is as close as every other bit so latency is not a problem. But no, if they were that clever they would have also included some spare bytes in every block and a map so that if a bit in the middle went bad it wouldn't knock out the whole block and some sort of error detection and correction mechanism. It a fit of brilliance they might even have planned for a heavily worn block with too many burned out bits to borrow unused spare bits from another block. Gee, if they were practically omniscient they might have included programmable firmware in case they needed to push out a cure for pathological case they hadn't considered yet.

    That is, if they were clever (pdf) that way (pdf).

    And if you're trying that hard to break it, a spinning disk won't hold up long at all either.

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