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Psystar Wins a Round Against Apple

Daengbo writes "'A federal judge last week ruled that Psystar Corp. can continue its countersuit against Apple Inc., giving the Mac clone maker a rare win in its seven-month-old battle with Apple. He also hinted that if Psystar proves its allegations, others may then be free to sell computers with Mac OS X already installed.' Apple is currently suing Psystar over its sale of Mac clones."

27 of 660 comments (clear)

  1. Hell yes! by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is great news for everyone who believes in fair competition in the marketplace. Kudos to that judge, and I hope the countersuit goes well!

    --
    "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    1. Re:Hell yes! by ByOhTek · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Much agreement. Additionally, I think the clone segment will actually help Apple. By making the OS more accessible, more people will use it, and there will be less inhibition for people to not get a Mac.

      Using the old logic - the per-unit profit on the OS is quite a bit, so they get a lot of money from the clones that they wouldn't have gotten otherwise. I seriously doubt the clones will significantly (negatively) impact Apple's sales of hardware - more likely it'll draw on the PC crown mostly, and probably have some positive PC->Apple market change as well.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    2. Re:Hell yes! by 0racle · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If Psystar want's to compete, let them compete. Apple competes by creating products, Psystar is simply riding their coat tails. The government forcing a company to operate in areas they deem unprofitable is not fair competition in the marketplace.

      --
      "I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
    3. Re:Hell yes! by pmontra · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually I believe that it will damage Apple in the short and mid term. Apple will lose revenues for selling the hardware and the option of raising the price of the OS won't be welcomed by customers. I think that Apple doesn't care to have OSX on 20% of the pcs if that means gaining less money than they do now with a 9-10% share.

      If a market of clones will bring OSX on 80% of pcs then Apple will gain more than now, but that will change what Apple is. Basically they're an hardware company developing software to help selling the hardware, much like HP and Sun. They're very different from software companies like Microsoft which occasionally develop hardware (XBOX, Zune, etc) to sell the software (Windows, which in turn sells Office).

      Anyway, hell yes! As a consumer I'll be happy to see lower priced macs.

    4. Re:Hell yes! by Chyeld · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The government forcing a company to operate in areas they deem unprofitable is not fair competition in the marketplace.

      And while your statement is a tautalogical truth, it has nothing to do with the situation at hand, which is Apple putting the artificial restriction on their OS, indicating it can only be installed on machines they've built.

      No one forced Apple to sell their OS divorced of their machines. They decided to do that to cash in on the lucrative market of OS upgrades.

      If they don't want people installing their OS on 'unapproved' machines, they have a simple and clear course to follow, don't sell the OS without a machine.

    5. Re:Hell yes! by ByOhTek · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The thing is, most Mac users I've seen are rabidly loyal to Apple. I don't think Apple will lose much in the way of hardware sales (and might gain some from the people who won't switch now due to some perceived inconvenience, but will also not switch to a clone due to the potential of an inferior product).

      Which is right? Only time and seeing the alternative will tell.

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    6. Re:Hell yes! by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How is Psystar buying copies of OSX that Apple is (voluntarily) selling "forcing a company to operate in areas they deem unprofitable"?

      The only thing at issue in this case is how much control a manufacturer should be able to exert over buyers through shrinkwrap "contracts".

    7. Re:Hell yes! by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Basically they're an hardware company developing software to help selling the hardware...

      This doesn't hold water. If they were really a hardware company, then, like every hardware company in existence, they would put the focus on their hardware. But the reality is that they are pushing their software, not their hardware. Their actions speak louder than their words: they're a software company who is trying to abuse copyright law to force you to do what they want with their product.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    8. Re:Hell yes! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Apple is neither a hardware nor a software company. They are a total solutions company. They focus on providing vertically integrated products that meet the customer's needs from the hardware all the way up to the software. That's why Mac laptops have incredible hardware features like magnetic clasps, incredible software features like appfolders, AND incredible features like instant sleep on close/hibernate on low power that require support from both software and hardware.

    9. Re:Hell yes! by dwarg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The kind of company they are is based on where they make their money. Apple makes some money selling high-end video software, but that's about it. iLife comes free with new macs. iWork doesn't have any copy protection on it. Steve Jobs has openly stated he doesn't care if you pirate OS X (he was assuming it would be used on Apple hardware at the time). iTunes barely breaks even, but it helps them sell iPods.

      And that's the point, Apple uses their software to get you to buy their absurdly overpriced hardware.

      The software IS the "Apple tax" and I think it's worth it when I use an Apple product and I think it isn't when it comes time to buy one. But the only way they offset the development costs is when you buy one of their machines because they just don't sell a lot of software.

    10. Re:Hell yes! by MasterOfMagic · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The parent's point is that if Apple wants to sell their OS without the hardware, they should not be allowed to put in the license for that software that you can only use it on Apple hardware. Their remedy, if they don't want their OS being used on non-Apple hardware, is to not sell OS X separately from the hardware.

      When you buy a DVD or Blu-Ray from Sony, do you have to agree to a license that says you can only play it back on a Sony player on a Sony television? Why should it be any different with Apple?

    11. Re:Hell yes! by Arkham · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Apple is a hardware company. If they cease to make money on hardware, the will exit the market. Legalizing clones would cause the Mac to disappear, and Mac OS X with it. The OS is not profitable by itself and never will be. The market is just too small.

      They tried it once before, for those who do not know. Clones nearly killed Apple.

      The notion that a judge would rule that Apple doesn't have the right to restrict what computers can run the software that they create is ridiculous. If this succeeds, the next step will be Apple having to add ROMs back into their machines to prevent this sort of crap.

      --
      - Vincit qui patitur.
    12. Re:Hell yes! by SerpentMage · · Score: 3, Insightful

      no apple pushes both to create the Apple experience. Thus if they loose the ability to push hardware the apple experience will go down.

      Look at the iPod or iPhone. It is because you have the hardware with the software (iTunes Appstore) that competitors cannot match.

      --

      "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
      "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
    13. Re:Hell yes! by Hatta · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No one is forcing Apple to do anything. If they don't want to sell it for $130, they don't have to. They just can't control what I do with it once they sell it to me.

      Apple has no right to a return on their investment. If their business model depends on selling me an item, and then controlling what I can do with it after they sold it to me, they should have picked a better business model.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    14. Re:Hell yes! by Chyeld · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The reason you can only play a PS3 game on a PS3 is not because they've legally tied the game to the PS3, it's because currently the only hardware capable of playing it.

      If another machine were to be able to play it, the only illegality involved would be if they stole copyrighted code from Sony (i.e. Sony's BIOS for the PS3) or violated Sony's patents in implementing their machine.

      The parent's analogy is far more appropriate and closer to the truth than yours. Apple had their "PS3" moment when they were producing specialized hardware to run the Mac OS on. But today they sell Intel machines, ones that are completely capable of being built independently of Apple. If this were a video game console analogy, it'd be the Atari 2600 vs. the Coleco Gemini and Coleco won that one.

    15. Re:Hell yes! by Sir_Lewk · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Apple's apparently weak business model is not a valid legal defense.

      --
      "linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
  2. Re:If they win... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If Pystar can win on OSX, the same argument could, in principle, be made for other operating systems. I suspect, though, that the impact would be pretty minimal. HP-UX only runs on PA-RISC or Itanium, so the wild world of x86 whiteboxes isn't going to happen unless HP wants it to. Further, HP-UX is the sort of thing that(with the limited exceptions of a few hobbyists, and people looking for HP-UX experience on the cheap) would only be run by outfits that care about Big Serious Enterprise Features(tm) and support contracts and stuff. All HP has to do is say that HP-UX, and anything you run on it, is only supported on HP hardware and most of the value dries up. OSX, by contrast, is frequently run in the desktop area, where support is a fairly minimal consideration.

  3. Re:If this works... by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Citation?

    Some hardware manufacturers don't employ devs who code for Linux. It's a shame, but hey, that's an extra cost. Linux doesn't yet have the market share to warrant employing dedicated devs to write drivers for Linux (please bare in mind the many, many distros, dependencies, package types, kernel revisions which drivers would need to be developed for. Source code is great, but I don't want the hassle of compiling it thanks).

    It's an infinite regression paradox. Devs need to code for existing hardware to increase uptake, which then need support from vendors with newer versions. More uptake is needed to increase the viability of dev time... The trouble is nobody wants to go first.

    --
    Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
  4. If Pystar wins, it will be terrible for OS X users by javacowboy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Disclaimer: My primary home computer is a Mac (which you probably guessed from my sig).

    If Pystar wins their lawsuit, it will be terrible for not just Apple, but OS X users too.

    Apple is still a small company with limited programming resources. One of the reasons OS X evolved so quickly is that Apple could channel its limited programming and QA resources into improving the features and stability of the operating system, while supporting only a very small limited subset of the available hardware in the PC market.

    One of the reasons Microsoft has so many problems is that Windows needs to support every hardware configuration imaginable. If Windows fails to do so, as it did with Vista, Microsoft bears the brunt of the criticism (not the hardware or driver maker), and essentially has to take the lead in solving the problem.

    If OS X has to support every hardware imaginable, OS X releases will be delayed further and the end products will no longer be as stable. Look at what support for both Intel and PowerPC did to Leopard, and its associated QA and development process. The end product was not as stable or reliable as quickly as previous OS X releases.

    What's more, Apple nearly went bankrupt after licensing Mac OS to third party clone makers. Clone sales undercut Mac sales far more than Apple received licensing fees for Mac OS.

    For OS X to continue as a high quality operating system, Pystar must lose.

         

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  5. New versions of OS X will be sold only online by javacowboy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If Pystar wins, OS X will no longer be sold retail. New versions will only be available via a paid online update.

    Apple will then assert that it's impossible to install it on commodity hardware without stealing the source code outright.

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    1. Re:New versions of OS X will be sold only online by Tetsujin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ok, that's fine. Why doesn't Apple just do that instead of trying to abuse copyright law?

      Apple's retail presence has been rather strong for the last several years. Not being able to sell OS updates in their own retail stores would somewhat limit their ability to get people to buy those updates... Plus not everyone has a good internet connection.

      --
      Bow-ties are cool.
  6. It should be legal by mlwmohawk · · Score: 5, Insightful

    When you copyright something and make it available to the public, in exchange for the protection of copyright, you loose some control over your work.

    If I read a newspaper, when I am done, I can pass it to someone else if I wish. That is legal and there's nothing a newspaper can do about it. Even if the newspaper says "non-transferable," they may wish that to be true, but it is not. We have rights and we need to fight back and challenge entities that make claims that are not true.

    The argument that it "belongs to them" doesn't work because they are making it public under copyright law. Copyright law protects their content AND allows fair use of it.

    Software is copyrighted. A license agreement does not limit your rights under "copyright law," it enhances your rights beyond copyright law. Software vendors will argue otherwise, but more and more court cases are upholding copyright over EULAs.

    If I purchase software, the ISV can not control what I do with it. I have a valid right to use the material, obtained legally and under the financial terms agreed upon by the copyright owner. When I am finished with it, I have a court confirmed right of first sale. I'm sure the court will confirm what we all know, that I can do with it as I please. As long as I do not make and distribute copies of it, I'm legit.

    For instance, I can buy a painting from a painter. He may say, "under no circumstances are you to destroy this paining or sell it to anyone else," but once he sells it to me, I can do with it as I please. I can spray paint it, burn it, or sell it.

  7. Re:If you're whining and Apple don't respond by BSDimwit · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Apple does NOT have a monopoly. Saying that Apple has a monopoly on selling Macs is like saying Ford has a monopoly on selling Mustangs. The market in question is personal computers, not Personal computers that run OS X software.

  8. OSX will enjoy the same success... by ThrowAwaySociety · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That BeOS, OS/2, and NEXTSTEP enjoyed. The fate of technically superior, generically compatible, for-profit alternative operating systems is pretty well established.

    There are three ways to build a successful OS:
    - Legacy monopoly position
    - Free (libre)
    - Make your money on hardware

    Selling a "premium" OS for generic hardware is a surefire path to irrellevance.

  9. Re:If you're whining and Apple don't respond by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Mustangs don't typically require buying a specific brand of gasoline that won't work with the Chevy Malibu. Using a Mac requires buying different software. The scope of the investment is not directly comparable to any other device except possibly the iPod and iTunes Store music compatibility.

    The purpose for antitrust laws is protecting consumers, not protecting businesses. The same problems occur whether someone is locked in because no competitors exist or because they merely can't buy a competitor's product for compatibility reasons. That's why certain types of tying are violation of antitrust laws in spite of competition existing.

    Is tying Mac OS X to Mac hardware a clear antitrust violation? No. Is it clearly not an antitrust violation? Also no. There are plenty of case law precedents on either side of this issue, and the way a court rules is likely to depend more on how the argument is worded and which judge hears the case than on its fundamental merits. It's a very grey area.

  10. Re:If you're whining and Apple don't respond by remmelt · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'll turn your argument around: let's say I am a car manufacturer, new to the market. I sell the RemmeltCar and have exclusive contracts with dealerships. Spare parts can only be had through them or directly from me.

    Would you buy my car based on this information?

    Judging buy your post, you probably wouldn't. If you still would want to drive a car, would there be anywhere else you could go for buying one?

    My point: Apple doesn't have a monopoly on computers. They have a monopoly (if you want to call it that) on their parts, but so do Dell, Compaq, Acer, Asus, etc. If you want to buy a computer, there are lots of places you can go.

    If your argument is that you want to buy a computer with OSX on it, well, I'd have to let a judge decide that one. Which is how we come back to the topic at hand ;)

  11. Re:If you're whining and Apple don't respond by aspie31 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The market in question is personal computers, not Personal computers that run OS X software.

    I'm sorry, but in this instance, it very much is personal computers that run OS X. The whole point of all this is because Apple want to be the only company that supplies computers with OS X preinstalled. Let me run that by you one more time. The only company that supplies computers with OS X preinstalled. If that isn't the definition of a monopoly, please do tell me what is.