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Microsoft Accused of Squandering Billions On R&D

Julie188 writes "Even as Microsoft celebrates its 10,000th patent, angry shareholders are starting to speak out against what they say is the squandering of billions of dollars on pointless R&D projects. The 10,000th patent covers a technology that allows a device to associate data with objects placed on its surface, and is likely eventually to become part of the Surface table PC. But shareholders are fed up with the $8 billion annually spent. Said one, 'I believe Bill Gates is a charlatan because what he has said, implied, promised to shareholders and stakeholders and all of these visionary things that he mumbles and jumbles about and doesn't make reality of. MS is spending billions of dollars on R&D. Where is the return on investment?' In contrast, Apple had almost the same revenue gains as Microsoft while spending one-tenth as much."

21 of 580 comments (clear)

  1. Death march by religious+freak · · Score: 5, Insightful

    When a company cannot capitalize on its R&D spending, shareholders insist on cutbacks, and the company eventually falls behind and becomes irrelevant.

    Since Mr. Gates owns so much of MS, I personally doubt this will happen, but if MS concedes and then begins to cut back on R&D, I'll start to believe those that say that the days of MS are numbered.

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  2. Stalemate. by Darkness404 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It seems that MS has managed to work itself into a stalemate. On one hand it must keep evolving and changing to attempt to be better than Linux and Apple, but on the other hand it has to keep regulations into check to not become even more monopolistic. R&D is about the only output that MS can put its profits into to keep regulators at bay and still grow its business.

    --
    Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    1. Re:Stalemate. by j0nb0y · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's not against antitrust laws to simply be a large company. And it's not against antitrust laws for a large company to simply grow either.

      --
      If you had super powers, would you use them for good, or for awesome?
    2. Re:Stalemate. by mblase · · Score: 4, Insightful

      On one hand it must keep evolving and changing to attempt to be better than Linux and Apple

      That's not the Microsoft I know. The Microsoft I've come to know focuses on (a) maintaining its dominance in the office environment and (b) imitating other technologies' success stories as quickly as possible. That's not evolving, that's mimicry.

  3. They aren't investors by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Even as Microsoft celebrates its 10,000th patent, angry shareholders are starting to speak out against what they say is the squandering of billions of dollars on pointless R&D projects.

    Investors know that sometimes things won't pay out. These are the whiny little 10%-return-no-risk assholes who sue when a CEO doesn't start layoffs ASAP to pump up the stock price.

    Here's news for you: sometimes weird investments pay off in radically unforeseeable ways. If you're the kind of jackass who dismissed the idea because we already had vacuum tubes, then you're the same kind who thinks modern R&D is a waste of money.

    As much as I dislove Microsoft, I'm glad they're doing this stuff. Apparently they understand the importance even if a few short term profit-takers are too stupid to see it.

    --
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    1. Re:They aren't investors by electrosoccertux · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Even as Microsoft celebrates its 10,000th patent, angry shareholders are starting to speak out against what they say is the squandering of billions of dollars on pointless R&D projects.

      Investors know that sometimes things won't pay out. These are the whiny little 10%-return-no-risk assholes who sue when a CEO doesn't start layoffs ASAP to pump up the stock price.

      Here's news for you: sometimes weird investments pay off in radically unforeseeable ways. If you're the kind of jackass who dismissed the idea because we already had vacuum tubes, then you're the same kind who thinks modern R&D is a waste of money.

      As much as I dislove Microsoft, I'm glad they're doing this stuff. Apparently they understand the importance even if a few short term profit-takers are too stupid to see it.

      They're welcome to sell their shares if they don't like it.

      When you get as big as Microsoft (as in, you've saturated your market) you've got to _create_ new markets to sell to. This is why they dump so much into R&D.

      If they want to fuss at MS they should fuss about the guys that came by the office the other day. They do pretty much nothing but drive around to different people that purchase Microsoft Server licenses and tell them "Eh? Go read the documentation, it's all in that book we gave you. No, sorry, we can't do that, this is how the product works and if you don't like it, too bad." IE, they do nothing. They make ~$500K each and tether their laptops to their cellphone and play WoW all day while not telling clients to figure it out.
      There probably aren't many of those guys though.

    2. Re:They aren't investors by iluvcapra · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's worth pointing out that though COOL may not have been out of Microsoft Research (the speech-recognizing Singularity-coders), it almost certainly was under the R&D bottom line in MS's accounting, and the size of the R&D bottomline is what has the investors pissed. I don't think these particular investors would know "Microsoft Research," that of Singularity and Speech Recognition, from Adam.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    3. Re:They aren't investors by hacksoncode · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, ClearType came from R&D. You have to admit, it's pretty necessary in order for LCD monitors to take off.

      Their handwriting recognition IME's did too.

      In fact, *tons* of stuff that's in Windows and Office came out of MS R&D. It's just not that flashy.

      Of course, tons more didn't. But that's how R&D goes.

  4. Apple isn't even spending that by speedtux · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Most of Apple's "R&D" is spent on "D"; there is very little actual research coming out of Apple, by any objective measure. Apple just takes other people's badly packaged good ideas and sticks them into shiny white plastic packages, writing patents along the way.

    Unlike other big companies, Apple doesn't even give research grants to academia in any significant quantity (they just charge an arm and a leg for their machines).

    If all high tech companies were as stingy as Apple, academia and computer science research would be in big trouble.

    1. Re:Apple isn't even spending that by anss123 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yeah, that $150 million realllllllly is what made the difference, at a time when Apple had $4 billion in the bank.

      I believe it was more the commitment about bringing Office and IE to the mac + giving Apple some good news to spread around. Make investors happy ya know, so they won't demand those 4 bill paid out in cash.

    2. Re:Apple isn't even spending that by tres · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And finally, academia and computer science research shouldn't be beholden to any corporate entity. Our institutions should be funded by the government. The ideas should be public property.

      --
      Notes From Under *nix: blas.phemo.us
  5. MS Needs R&D by Ohio+Calvinist · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Unlike Apple, MS has to invest heavy in R&D because unlike Apple, they don't opperate like a consumer hardware company. Secondly, MS is growing stagnant in the operating system market, because the OS has become ubiquitious, and they have regulators scruitinizing everything they plan to do with their OS offering. Thirdly, if MS does millions in R&D, and their competitors or FOSS can take that and produce a free or cheaper interoperable product, their consumer/desktop software lines are threatened.

    MS is moving to the edge of bubble, they need to either realize that they are becoming the next IBM and begin to move away from the desktop market into server/solutions development; or begin to become more of a consumer electronics company, which would require creating "good" consumer electronics and be competitive in that market, not use it as a loss-leader to harm their competitors or further intrench their Windows position. Desktop computing in the past 3-4 years has offered very little that is groundbreaking for the average user, and the best-of-the best in '01 is still good enough for most people. PC manufacturers aren't seeing major growth, only sales in "back-to-school" periods where students become first time buyers rather than using mom & dads aging box, or replacement when existing boxes fail; which more and more consumers and companies are working to reduce.

    In a strapped market, where people are much more willing part with hard earned dollars for 6 more inches on their screen with HD more than chips 400MHz faster (but feel slower on bloated software), MS needs to find a new market that they can win, and win big in; or they are going to see their share decreasing.

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    Forgive my spelling from time to time. I'm often posting during short breaks.
  6. Re:Budget by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think it crosses over to the development team. When you first hear about a new version of Windows, it generally has some features that actually sound cool.

    Then management cuts the features and all that's left is the previous version of Windows with a new interface. That's where the crossover is failing.

  7. If their R&D... by msauve · · Score: 4, Insightful

    At $10,000 apiece, all MSFT has to do is sell 800,000 Surface tables and they've got their money back. I mean who doesn't want a big-ass kiosk in their home.

    If their R&D has let them figure out a way to make $10,000 items which have a zero cost of goods, and don't have any marketing or support costs, they've got it made.

    --
    "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
  8. Sutting Down Game Studios by MediaStreams · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Microsoft has been shutting down their Xbox game studios over the past three years. They are now down to only three: Rare, Lionhead, and Turn 10. Along with their talk of not releasing new Xbox hardware any time soon it sounds like they are easing out of the console market.

    They surely see that they went with the absolutely cheapest console hardware and still lost billions. With no consumer electronics design and manufacturing capabilities of their own there is no reason that they would do any better with yet another try at console hardware. More reliable and better built hardware is going to cost more money. And no one at Microsoft appears to be in any mood to continue spending billions on products that are doing nothing for Microsoft as a whole.

  9. Re:R does not have to be impractical by linguae · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Contributing to open source projects is not research; it is development focused on open-source products instead of closed-source products. Research would be developing new ways to improve operating systems, compilers, and web servers, for example, based on certain criteria (performance, security, design, etc.). For example, Plan 9 is a research project. There is plenty of research in academia and industry that are geared toward solving real-world problems. For example, many of the advances in computer hardware, such as deep pipelines and multicore processors, started out as research problems. But contributing to an open source project is different from research. I fail to see how contributing to GCC or WebKit per se solves any problems in computer science, which is the definition of research, unless those contributions are a result of research.

  10. while I don't have a lot of inside knowledge by Trepidity · · Score: 5, Insightful

    My understanding is that until recently one of the big purposes of MS Research was just prestige, not really product production. MSR has consistently produced a very large amount of academic research in some key areas, e.g. almost always accounting for more than 10% of the papers at SIGGRAPH, year in and year out. Microsoft management was of the opinion that having something like that was useful to their business in indirect ways, even if those SIGGRAPH papers didn't directly lead to deals with CG film companies or anything. Is that true? I have no idea; it's kind of hard to measure intangibles like whether having a prestigious research group attached to your company increased your reputation to the point where it tipped the balance on an important sale or contract.

    I think they were also going for the Bell Labs model, where the research group pays for itself if it's left to its own devices and very occasionally invents/patents something big. I have no idea what MSR's patent portfolio is like from a business perspective. Have they licensed any significant percentage of it? More intangibly, what proportion of Microsoft's defensive patent portfolio originated from MSR?

    And finally, one of the unofficial purposes of MSR for years was just to hire up everyone so nobody else could. Microsoft had a dominant lead in a number of areas, and one way to protect that is just to deny all your competitors access to talent. Kind of the model Google is currently using (they hardly need 20,000 employees otherwise).

  11. Re:Bill Gates? by vux984 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They could refer to the company charter, which often has a phrase where the primary objective of the company is "to maximize profits and increase shareholder value". If that is the case for Microsoft (I have no reason to not think so here), the directors are violating a primary tenant of their charter if they spend money frivolously. From this it would be the basis of a lawsuit by violating the basic charter of the company and its legal right to exist.

    A tech company investing in R&D, or even doing a bit of skunk works is not "frivolous". It is precisely aligned with a long view goal of maximizing profits and increasing shareholder value. The directors have a lot of leeway if this is all you have got to sue them on.

  12. Re:Bill Gates? by msobkow · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Spending money on R&D is not the same as "spending frivolously." The whole point of R&D is to experiment with new technologies, some of which pay off, some of which don't.

    Kudos to Microsoft for actually investing in their future, rather than sitting on the cash pile. To hell with the whinging "investors" who expect money for free.

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
  13. Re:actually, Microsoft's investors disagree by Herby+Sagues · · Score: 4, Insightful

    An dyou think reducing R&D spending could make its stock go up? If Microsoft had low margins (like most companies have), that might make sense. But even halving R&D would not make such a large dent in their bottom line. THey get 20B out of 60B in sales. Reducing 4B out of R&D (which would be impossible, as that would not even cover maintaining existing products) would bring revenue to 22 or 23B (the difference due to taxes). Do you think that new situation, with 3B extra cash but without a future whatsoever would make the stock go up or down? When Steve Ballmer took the reins, he said "this is a different market, there are not as many opportunities for growth so we have to be more cost conscious". Since then, Google blasted off, Apple created the iPod and the iPhone, companies like Facebook sprouted out of nowhere and mobility became a market bigger than computing. Investing in R&D is what Microsoft has to do. Despite all the babble about marketing, every time they did a bad product (take Vista) they did bad, but when they created products people actually liked, they did great. It's that simple. Don't cut R&D. Cut marketing.

  14. Re:Ballmer's Xbox Fiasco, Search Insanity, And Oth by sunspot42 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They've spent a LOT more than $5 billion on the Xboxen over the past decade or so. More like $25 - $30 billion, last I read. That's a truly staggering sum for a product line that's yet to earn them even a cool billion in profit over the same period.

    It's even more embarrassing for Microsoft when you realize the Wii has forced them to cut the price of the Xbox 360 just to remain competitive saleswise - and they're still sliding into 2nd place in this generation for overall sales, in spite of having a year's headstart.

    Even worse, Nintendo has been turning a profit on the Wii since very early on in its lifecycle. Microsoft just recently started turning any consistent profits at all on its videogame business, and last I read they're still losing money on every 360 they sell (they have to make it back on the games). In contrast, Nintendo is turning a profit both on their consoles and on the games.

    In a lot of ways, I'd say Microsoft is an even bigger loser in this generation of the console wars than Sony. The PS3 is likely to have a longer lifespan in the market than the 360, giving Sony more of a chance to make money off the consoles (and games) in the long run. And by pushing Blu-Ray to some level of success at least Sony stands to make some money off that standard thanks to their enormous PS3 investment. In contrast, Microsoft has nothing to show for the whole Xbox investment besides - finally - an anemic quarterly profit for their gaming division.

    Apple's making far more money off of the iPhone than Microsoft's making off of the Xbox, and it cost Apple far less money and took Apple far less time.

    I think folks criticizing Microsoft for their R&D investments are on the right track. Microsoft has blown a ton of money on R&D and on trying to get into other markets besides desktop PCs, and much of it has been completely wasted. Several of their competitors have done a far better job, spending a lot less money.

    Research is great, but you have to be able to translate that research into products people want to buy (that's the "development" side of R&D). Microsoft risks becoming the next Xerox - a one-trick pony who dominated one market, but who could never translate their extensive R&D efforts into successful products in different markets. Remember, it was Xerox who pretty much invented the modern graphical user interface PCs sport today, along with things like Ethernet and laser printers. Where are they now?