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Microsoft Sued Over Vista-To-XP Downgrade Fees
Krojack writes with this excerpt from Computerworld:
"Los Angeles resident Emma Alvarado charged Microsoft with multiple violations of Washington state's unfair business practices and consumer protection laws over its policy of barring computer makers from continuing to offer XP on new PCs after Vista's early-2007 launch. Alvarado is seeking compensatory damages and wants the case declared a class-action suit. ... Irked at having to pay a fee for downgrading a new Lenovo notebook to XP, Alvarado said that Microsoft had used its position as the dominant operating system maker to 'require consumers to purchase computers pre-installed with the Vista operating system and to pay additional sums to "downgrade" to the Windows XP operating system.'"
She had paid the "Microsoft tax" already, on the purchase of the PC.
Why should she have to pay another "Tax" to [downgrade to] something that works???
A pox on Microsoft...
If I had an Ass, I'd call it Fanny Bottom, then I could slap my Ass; Fanny Bottom, on the Arse.
It should be my RIGHT to choose - ie. not to pay for Vista if I'm not going to use it. A sale is a sale, Microsoft shouldn't care whether it's Vista or XP.
No sig today...
There's a big question about whether the courts can punish a manufacturer for what businesses in the retail chain sell.
I'd like to see MS taken down several notches, but unless there's some smoking gun, I would expect it.
Put identity in the browser.
The OS she wants is Windows XP. Why should she pay for two operating systems if she's only going to use one of them?
No sig today...
And their history of anti-competitive behavior, I'm not sure this is the right case. Now if the case was making hardware makers decouple the hardware and software costs, that might be different. If MS could raise the price of XP in a competitive environment, even if they're competing against their own products, more power to them. The only element that's not right is the one that's been wrong for a long time. MS using it's monopoly position to run the OEM's and leverage their market position to freeze out competition. This case doesn't really get at that. Sounds more like someone whining they can't get XP.
But today there are a lot of good operating system choices. MS isn't the only game in town...as far as you can get past the OEM issue...not even the best game in town. If you could buy a retail copy of Windows from someone like Dell, and that cost was essentially the same as the price quoted on a new PC or laptop, then the market can really decide what the best OS for the money really is. When you don't have a choice, you don't have a market.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
If the engines were completely interchangeable, had zero manufacturing cost and this year's engine had worse mileage...
No sig today...
This is more like being charged a fee to buy last year's model car because you don't like this year's version. Not silly at all. Why should I pay a fee to get an older model that suits me just fine? Next thing you know Microsoft will drop support for XP and then charge them extra when they want to refresh their XP install. If you don't pay, we won't unlock XP and make it "legal". Note: Microsoft is not authorized to read this post or use my ideas without paying me $1,000,000 in cash.
If you are going to buy pre-made computers with an operating system, what do you expect? The market for computers without an operating system is zero, so nobody sells them that way. You can, however, put your own together for often somewhat less than the cost of the pre-made computer.
Then you get to choose how to put an operating system on it. Usually, for most people, it is very expensive to do this because you end up paying full retail price for the operating system. Whereas the pre-made computer folks are selling you a finished product with an operating system they paid $50 for instead of $200 like you can.
However, if you have a site license, are paying for MSDN, Action Pack, Empower or any one of a myriad of other programs, you pay zero for the operating system on your nice put-together computer.
Now how many people can actually do this? Oh, maybe 1%. Do you think you are going to get anywhere selling a product that only 1% of the people in the US can actually use?
I'm no Microsoft fan, but it sounds as if $59.25 to get a completely different commercial OS, XP, isn't an egregious fee when you purchased the crummy consumer version of the newer OS, Vista.
In order to purchase the XP 'downgrade', you also had to purchase Vista Business. So the actual cost over Vista Home was closer to $150 dollars. Linux, or no OS, was probably not available as an option, arguably because of Microsoft's unfair business practices.
It IS your right to choose. And when Lenovo tells you that they're selling a machine with Vista on it, and you choose to buy it, you're making your decision. I know it may sound crazy, but if you don't want a PC with Vista, you shouldn't buy a PC with Vista.
I'd be a bit more sympathetic if they didn't tell her it came with Vista, but that doesn't seem very likely. All of the machines on lenovo.com make it very clear which operating system they have installed. And when you buy a machine in a store, there's almost always a sticker on the box listing the OS, amount of memory, hard drive storage, etc.. She knew what they were selling, and she chose to buy it.
Maybe not
Huh? How many car companies sell cars with engines as separate and optional?
You can choose engine and transmission on a lot of cars. A lot of custom shops can get frames and bodies.
She's complaining because Microsoft stopped offering discounts to manufacturers, forcing them to go to Vista. Lenovo (in this case) offers the legacy option of XP for a fee because of this, instead of just saying "we're not selling XP anymore because Microsoft isn't giving us a discount", and somehow it's Microsoft's fault?
Microsoft is using its monopoly position to force OEMs to restrict customer choice.
That is an example how Microsoft gets the blame for the policy of the OEMs to treat their customers badly.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't these users *opt* to downgrade knowing there would be an additional charge?
Not to mention that the charge is from Dell or HP or whatever OEM, and not Microsoft, but the customer opted for it.
I'm sure there's a poor car analogy for this, but I don't even need one to point out how dumb this appears on the surface. Maybe there's just something I'm not seeing?
-David
You should frequent people outside of IT a bit more...
Unfortunately, that's not an option for laptops.
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
I think you'd be hard-pressed to argue that it would cost Dell more to offer a "blank hard drive" option, since with that option Dell would actually have to spend less time on those machines (not having to install an OEM copy of Windows).
Not hard-pressed at all. Without an operating system, they can't install all of the crapware. And if they can't install the crapware, they don't get kick-backs from the crapware companies for putting the advertising on all the computers they sell.
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
ROFLMAO.
Mac Pro: comes standard with 2 x 1GB sticks of memory - 800MHz, DDR2, ECC. Let's try 2 extra 1GB sticks of memory. Apple price? $500. NewEgg price for 2 x 1GB sticks of Kingston 800MHz DDR ECC memory? $67. So only 650% markup there, after all, Apple's gotta make money somehow, right? What with them being competitive on hardware pricing and all, like you say. 16GB, 4x4 GB. Apple price? $4,300! Sorry, I'm still crying with laughter at your claim about comparable pricing. NewEgg? $604. Still, it's better, only 610% markup. Let's not even look at the 32GB option, Apple only wants the price of a new car for that...
Oh, but "everyone" knows, you don't buy memory from Apple, right? How about hard drives?
1TB SATA 7200rpm hard drive. The Apple price? A steal, at only $450. Aww crap, there I was thinking I could get one from NewEgg for under $100! Oh, wait, $99 IS under $100! Score!
Let's try a video card. ATI Radeon HD 2600 Pro. Wow, Apple's almost competitive there, $130, versus $55. First we've seen with under 200% markup!
Maybe I'm not being fair, the Mac Pro is a "workstation" class machine, after all. Let's try the MBP.
Let's jump from 4GB to 8GB. Tossing aside 2 2GB modules for 2 4's. Apple: $1,200. Confusing, as they're only $360, even without the subsidized cost from the 2 x 2 you were going to get anyway. Let's be charitable, and call it $250.
Hard drives, 256GB solid state drive, same story, $750, though same drive at NewEgg is $540, and you're not subsidizing with a 320GB drive already, which realistic vendors only want $70 for.
So to cut a long story short, tell me again how Apple isn't overpriced.
So Microsoft should be forced to sell XP indefinitely and provide support for it indefinitely?
Yes, because the average consumer can afford $1000 for a laptop and...what $2500 for a desktop that actually has an expansion slot? The reason Apple is hip is because it is expensive, same reason as Ferrari. I live next to a college with a good 75% Apple to PC ratio, and while they can't tell WHY an Apple is good or WHAT makes it hip, they can tell you down to the last penny how much it costs. When have you seen that with a Windows user?
In fact now it has become a pissing contest with the "Macbook Pros" VS the "Macbook Airs" with both thinking they are better than the other. Trust me, if they sold Apple computers for the same price as Dell they would go down in flames just as Porsche nearly went broke when they tried to sell a cheap sportster. Why? Because it ruined the exclusivity and thus the "cool factor" of owning a Porsche. That is why Apple will never sell "to the masses", because it will kill their high margin business selling to those that buy for the name, like BMW and Mercedes Benz.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.