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Do We Need a New Internet?

Richard.Tao and a number of other readers sent in a NYTimes piece by John Markoff asking whether the Internet is so broken it needs to be replaced. "...[T]here is a growing belief among engineers and security experts that Internet security and privacy have become so maddeningly elusive that the only way to fix the problem is to start over. What a new Internet might look like is still widely debated, but one alternative would, in effect, create a 'gated community' where users would give up their anonymity and certain freedoms in return for safety. Today that is already the case for many corporate and government Internet users. As a new and more secure network becomes widely adopted, the current Internet might end up as the bad neighborhood of cyberspace. You would enter at your own risk and keep an eye over your shoulder while you were there." A less alarmist reaction to the question was blogged by David Akin: "If you build a new Internet and you want me to get a license to drive on it, sorry. I'm hanging out here in v.1."

27 of 690 comments (clear)

  1. Absolutley Not by moniker127 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And it isnt really an option either.

  2. as old ben would say by larry+bagina · · Score: 5, Insightful
    give up their anonymity and certain freedoms in return for safety

    They don't deserve (and won't get) either.

    --
    Do you even lift?

    These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

  3. Users by evil_aar0n · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Build all the "new" Internets you want. As long as you have clueless users on your network, you'll have attack vectors.

    --
    Truth, Justice. Or the American Way.
  4. Oh hey by kjzk · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The internet is unfortunately the truest form of Freedom of Speech we have available. We can't even protest in public without fear of arrest or being harmed by police. There are a lot of people with money and power would like to stop the flow of information in its tracks.

  5. my letter to the editor by bcrowell · · Score: 5, Insightful

    To the Editor:

    Re "A New Internet? The Old One is Putting Us in Jeopardy," by John Markoff (Week in Review, Feb. 15, 2009):

    Mr. Markoff both misstates and overstates the security problems faced by the Internet as currently designed.

    He never uses the word "Windows," but the virus outbreaks he describes are almost entirely a Windows phenomenon, and due to the poor design of that operating system. Microsoft's apologists have been saying for years that this was only because Windows' market share made it the more attractive target. But Apple's share of the desktop market has skyrocketed recently to 15% without any outbreaks of viruses targeting the Macintosh. And Microsoft has never commanded more than about half of the server market; the other half runs open-source operating systems such as Linux (used by Google) and FreeBSD (Yahoo), on which viruses are essentially unknown.

    Markoff says it's hard to prove your identity on the internet, and proposes government regulation as a solution. But many people have been proving their identities for years now using proven technologies like public-key cryptography. The U.S. government played a negative role in the development of these technologies by attempting to regulate their distribution through export-control regulations originally intended for munitions.

  6. Re:Privacy vs. Anonymity by anomalous+cohort · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This so-called new Internet isn't about privacy as it is criminalizing bad behavior. So, you get to face charges when your machine gets a virus and now you have to prove that it really wasn't your fault.

    Are you ready to handle that? When your car or your gun gets stolen, you can report it. Then you're off the hook if someone commits a crime with it after you report the incident. Most folks won't be able to tell when their computer gets owned in a botnet. Most people would rather quit the Internet forever than risk criminal prosecution over something they don't really understand or have any confidence in managing.

  7. No way in hell! by p51d007 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    THIS scares me more than anything... "create a 'gated community' where users would give up their anonymity and certain freedoms in return for safety" Oh yeah right....leave "safety" in charge of some government idiots, or the UN...no thanks!

    1. Re:No way in hell! by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 5, Insightful

      To quote my main man on the C-Note: "They would trade essential liberty in return for a little temporary safety deserve neither." The B-man was talking about firearms, but it goes for the Intartubes as well.

    2. Re:No way in hell! by dkleinsc · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually, in my opinion the "gated community" metaphor fits perfectly: providing the illusion of security for a substantial sum without providing any actual benefit. It's not even giving up freedoms in return for safety, it's giving up freedoms in return for the illusion of safety.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    3. Re:No way in hell! by Mad+Merlin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's not even giving up freedoms in return for safety, it's giving up freedoms in return for the illusion of safety.

      Sounds like the Americans will be all for it then.

    4. Re:No way in hell! by kabloom · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, tell me what kind of new internet we're talking about and then we can have an intelligent discussion about it. There's a lot that can be done without sacrificing anonymity and freedoms that would help make a more secure internet. One example might be to get sensitive transactions (like purchases or online banking) out of HTTP and out of your web browser, and into a more purpose-built protocol. This could eliminate important dangers like cross-site request forgery and cross-site scripting. I await what other examples people can suggest.

    5. Re:No way in hell! by Ender_Stonebender · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Except there's no such thing as permanent safety. See, the safety is only as complete as the people in charge of making things safe are trustworthy. Creating safety requires giving people power, and power corrupts. Therefore, the people in charge of safety will be corrupt. Sure, the system may work for a while, but eventually a person that is very susceptible to corruption will be put in charge, and it will break down, probably quite spectacularly and quite quicky.

      --
      Loose things are easy to lose. You're getting your hair cut. They're going there to see their aunt.
    6. Re:No way in hell! by hedwards · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It is indeed correct, which by the way putting quotes around correct is not, that rights are not valuable if they go away when it becomes difficult to maintain them.

      And that there is indeed a very important qualifier that was put in, that word being "essential" meaning it's not the unimportant liberties, but the essential ones.

      Of course we don't have to blindly live by it, but we are sufficiently well off that we can.

    7. Re:No way in hell! by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's not entirely true though.

      We already have gated communities on the web. They're https sites.

      I would say a second secure webspace in which trusted commerce can take place in addition to the existing web wouldn't be a bad thing. I would be willing to completely give up my anonymity when wanting to make a secure transaction. In fact I would be willing to give up my anonymity on the normal internet, but like that I *could* be anonymous if ever needed.

      Hybridization seems like the key here.

    8. Re:No way in hell! by zappepcs · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You are dead right. Gated community is FUD/PR Spin machine running full tilt. First, lets look at the reasons that some might argue that the current Internet is a dangerous place?

      Got those in your head? Don't forget social engineering as the number one threat to Internet security, and that it CANNOT be fixed with hardware other than removing the network cable from the back of user's computers.

      Now, let us look at how a gated community might fix security issues:

      -social engineering dangers? Nope
      -Spam? Nope
      -open WiFi APs at home? Nope
      -DDoS? Nope, those are not end user issues. If an end user can reach a given service, their pc can be taken by a bot and used in a DDoS.
      -Viruses? Nope, gated communities will not stop all, if any, attack vectors

      So, quite initially, the benefits here are nil, null, void, empty, vapor... So what is the impetus to make such gated communities? To remove your privacy. Period. there is no other reason. ever.

      How can the current Internet be made better? There are lots of ways. First large ISPs need to re-organize their networks to handle the traffic required of them. Decentralization is imperative to both remove DDoS dangers and to ensure that user's across town from you are not using the bandwidth that you would otherwise be using. Content on demand can not be served efficiently from a single data source. Current network designs are designed that way for financial reasons and not network functionality. If you think the current state of Internet infrastructure is fucked, you have only your large ISP's to blame. They did not, and ARE not planning for a network topology that will support safety or expected data throughput requirements.

      Those that have been fighting DDoS attacks can tell you more. Gated networks won't stop the real problems. They will ONLY take your privacy for the facade of security.

    9. Re:No way in hell! by KeithJM · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Right now most bandwidth is lost to spammers, crackers and scammers.

      Really? How much bandwidth does it take to run a cracking script? I'd bet most bandwidth is "lost" to peer-to-peer downloads.

    10. Re:No way in hell! by Toonol · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Temporary Safety", because the safety would, in reality, be illusory and temporary. That part is obvious.

      "Essential Liberty" is the sacrifice of many speech rights, including anonymity and unpleasant speech (which would be banned the moment the UN got involved).

      Perhaps you mean that in the hypothetical situation Markoff is proposing, the benefit would be real and permanent, and the sacrifice not necessary; but that's a flight of fancy that most of us know is unrealistic.

    11. Re:No way in hell! by EdIII · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The fact that somebody said something that sounded wise and has a nice ring to it doesn't mean we all have to blindly live by it, or that it is "correct".

      Abso-fucking-lutely. Blind obedience and faith in anything is stupidity. That's why I abhor people who a) state something is the truth by referencing "doctrine" or b) state the laws are correct, simply because they are laws.

      We should always use our own intelligence to evaluate these statements and come to our own conclusions about their value, or wisdom.

      I don't really understand a lot of catchphrases like this.

      Do you not understand this particular catchphrase, or do you not understand why people use catchphrases?

      This particular phrase is absolutely correct. When we have essential liberties that we have agreed amongst ourselves that we possess, and then in turn sacrifice these liberties (and the principles that created them) in order to provide greater security from threats both known and unknown, we have in fact, accomplished absolutely nothing.

      That is what is meant by sacrificing "freedom" for "security" while receiving "neither". We lost freedom, and history has taught us (and will teach us again), that we never received the security we were looking for in the first place.

      I agree that we should never blindly agree to statements like these, but the wisdom is in this particular catchphrase has been well debated and I would say is "tried and true".

      The reason why we use this catchphrase is that is quicker to summarize our arguments by referring to it than to enter into a lengthy explanation (which I just did) of just what it means. You may not have understood the catchphrase (which was admittedly worded strangely), but it is your responsibility to determine what it meant if you really want to understand it. Otherwise it's just a language barrier.

    12. Re:No way in hell! by KeithJM · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I for one use peer to peer networks, for (some) legal purposes

      Yeah, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I put "lost" in quotes because the bandwidth isn't really lost, it's just used. It's like claiming sections of the highway are "lost" because there are lots of cars on them. That's why we BUILT the highways. You could argue the opposite is true, they're wasted if we we AREN'T using them.

    13. Re:No way in hell! by MadAhab · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The UN? Please, take off the tin foil hat, step away from the keyboard, and prepare yourself for the bad news.

      It's not the UN you have to fear. Far from it. It's the first local folks who don't like what you have to say.

      Think smoking pot isn't a big deal? Most Americans don't. But if you boss can find out you said that... well, chilling effects are a bummer, dude.

      Partner swapping? Amatuer fireworks? Liking big guns? Owning internet security tools? Taking apart the technology you "own"? Whistleblowing of any kind? Say, "my peanut-butter plant is filthy?" Yes, you had better fear the loss of anonymity. There are lots of people who don't want you to have it.

      But the UN? Bitch, please.

      It was overall a terrible, fear-mongering article. It reduced IPv6 to a single, rather inaccurate sentance.

      OK, put your tin foil hat back on now. Live in fear of the wrong things, asshole. Fearing the UN is like waiting for the Care Bare invasion.

      --
      Expanding a vast wasteland since 1996.
  8. Just look at what happens to walled/gated communit by MikeRT · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In places where the best of the haves hide behind gated communities, you know what happens? That's where the really enterprising criminals go. All of that faux security hasn't done a damn thing in countries like Mexico for the richest, who still have to worry about things like their kids getting kidnapped. The military still faces attacks on its secure networks. The fact is, no one and no institution is an island. If you don't participating in purging the world of ne'erdowellers and their ilk, you are just deluding yourself into thinking that your investment into your own safety is helping to get rid of the problem. That's why I advise friends and family to invest in a dog or two and a gun for defending their home, not a security system that can usually be defeated by a serious criminal.

  9. Simple by Daimanta · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If we cant make the comparitively tiny step of moving from ipv4 to ipv6 I think its nigh impossible to move to "a new internet".

    --
    Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power lost.
  10. Re:Harden up by rtb61 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No that is just plain wrong, don't support their lie in any way. They absolutely don't want to trade liberty for security, they want to trade 'your' liberty for 'their' control over you. Control over what you read or see, write or say, in any digital format. They have found that as a result of the internet, our voice is louder than theirs, that the majority view point now creates itself and dominates the minority view point that dominated mass media.

    Want a more secure internet, simple step one no more plain modems, all modems should incorporate a hardware fire wall based upon open source software, open source so that the public can see what is going on. Step two, simply use more secure software, that tightens up on internet access and that is a simple as using a better operating system, again open source is forced as the public has a right to know what is going on in a very integral part of their digital lives, what is basically becoming an essential service, no more secrets and no more lies.

    --
    Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
  11. Re:Harden up by icebraining · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Privacy is not a freedom?

  12. Of course we do. by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Of course we do need a "new" internet.

    The new bourgeois world order demands it.

    There is nothing more subversive and abhorrent to the owning/ruling classes than this peer-to-peer network, on which nobody can know you're a dog.

    That the smallest pipsqueak running Apache can pass for the largest media conglomerate, oh! the humanity!

    What is needs is a strict pay-as-you-go, one way network that will feed what the big media conglomerate want to the masses, in which nothing negative (to the owning classes) can travel. A virtual Disneyland(TM) where everything (appears) nice so that the masses can be fond of the status-quo.

  13. If you want a serious answer... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 4, Insightful

    here it is.

    It has long been recognized by the courts that without the ability to "speak" (communicate) to the public anonymously, the whole concept of "freedom of speech" would be a joke.

    It is necessary for proper political debate to be able to express one's views without fear of repercussion. If anonymity were outlawed or otherwise prevented, people would NOT be able to express their views without others knowing who they are... and potentially threatening them, or their wellbeing, or their employment, or their families...

    It all fits together. But truly, without anonymity, freedom of speech would not last.

    Keep in mind that the "Federalist Papers", and other important publications of information about the formation of our country, and the war of independence, were published anonymously or under pseudonyms. If they had not been, surely the people who wrote such things (Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, etc.) would have been harassed, arrested, or even killed.

  14. It isn't broken by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The Internet itself isn't broken, not by a long shot. What's broken are certain applications that run across it.

    And even then whether they're broken is arguable. Take SMTP for instance. One of the big complaints seems to be that SMTP doesn't make any guarantees that the sender is who they claim to be. My response to that is "And?". The USPS doesn't make any such guarantee about physical mail either, and we get along just fine anyway. It's just acknowledged that the identity of the sender isn't determined by the return address they put on the envelope, but by the claims in the letter inside and even those claims have to be verified independently of the Post Office. And when people are naive enough to believe any important letter just because it claims to be from someone without actually contacting that someone to verify it, we laugh at them. So when people say "I got an e-mail claiming to be from Bank of America and it was fake!", why don't we laugh at them and go "Well, YES! When the e-mail said there was a problem, why didn't you call BoA directly and ask about it?".

    Same for Web browsers and web sites, and dozens of other applications. People want the transport layer to substitute for their own judgement and common sense. The Internet doesn't do that, any more than UPS or the USPS do. We don't need a replacement for them, do we?