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Gamer Claims Identifying As a Lesbian Led To Xbox Live Ban
Goatbert writes "I just read on the Consumerist about an XBOX Live user being banned for identifying herself as a lesbian. Despite appeals, Microsoft has stood by its position that merely mentioning that you are gay or lesbian is grounds for terminating your XBOX Live membership."
As long as you get banned from Xbox live for identifying yourself as straight too, I don't see a problem with this...
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Don't ask, Don't tell.
... because they didn't want to see that crap or their kids to see that crap.
Whew, I couldn't agree more! Because it's been scientifically shown that exposures to gay people is what causes one to be gay. But why stop at targeting gays on the XBox? Did you know that your child might be befriending another kid in grade school and your child's friend may be gay and not yet know it? The only safe way out of this is to remove your kid from school--did you know that nearly 100% of homosexuals have gone through school? A frightening figure! You better find a conservative Christian school that teaches your child intolerance and how to properly ostracize and judge other people. That's the only way you can provide for them a pure and clean life.
And if the rest of us are lucky, we'll never have to interact with your kid.
This is not helping the already low low stereotype I have adopted of the users of XBox's online service.
My work here is dung.
This blog post does nothing but reference itself. There are no formal statements from MS and no proof of any kind given. Show me the proof, then I'll side with you. New tag: proveit
Also, I don't hang my hat on being straight - do you really need to point out that you're gay in your xbox profile? I mean... really? I don't think you should be banned for doing it, but I think it's a little odd.
If you can read this... 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100111 01100101 01100101 01101011
For the same reason you put anything in your profile. So you can find people with similar interests to play with.
The purpose is to find other gamer lesbians (a pretty small subculture) to hang out with, even if you aren't necessarily looking to hook up.
Why does anyone put anything in their profile? To find people with similar interests and backgrounds. It's not true of all lesbians, of course, but a lot of lesbians have things in common that they might not with non-lesbians and especially not with your typical xbox live player.
Why should announcing your sexual orientation start a fight? The bad behavior is on the part of people who feel that it is ok to persecute someone for talking about their sexual orientation.
The world you experience is only a close approximation of reality.
Yes, it's a good thing you don't go around mentioning your sexual orientation in public posts...
If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
Why announce it to begin with? ... gays/lesbians are looking to start fights ... a lot of minorities play that game.
As others have pointed out, it has nothing to do with starting fights and everything to do with expressing what is an integral part of your personal identity and choosing what kinds of online relationships you want to pursue.
In a similar vein, I'm curious what "game" it is that you feel minorities are playing? The "game" where they don't try to hide their identity and culture? The "game" where they expect to be treated fairly and equally with others in their workplace and community?
If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
Tell me the purpose of having a profile, and I will tell you the purpose of putting "I like [whatever]" in that profile. But for gays and lesbians, the issue is slightly different. 'Coming out' is an important part of the process of self discovery and self acceptance for such people. Yes, many go through a phase where they may be a little strident about it, but that is completely natural in a society with so much homophobia. If allowed to progress through the 'angry gay' stage, most will reach a stage where being gay is just another facet of their identity.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
So, if she were to write in her profile that she had a husband, that'd be okay?
And if she were to write in her profile that she had a wife, that'd not be okay?
This is what's so wrong with people just saying "shut up about your sexual orientation". That's basically saying "Unlike everyone around you, you need to hide pretty much your entire life from everyone else." The fact that you see "I am gay" as equivalent to writing "Christians and Jews are the devil!" is incredibly offensive on so many levels.
Are there any deer in the theater tonight? Get 'em up against the wall.
And please stop with the whole gender thing. I don't care if you're a male.
And just shut up about what city you live in!
"I only speak the truth"
Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
When Microsoft bans, say, people from writing "I am black" in their profile because it might start a fight with skinheads or "I am an evolutionary biologist" because it might start a fight with creationists is the day I'll consider this position toward gays and lesbians even remotely fair.
Are there any deer in the theater tonight? Get 'em up against the wall.
...but I've been on XBox live. The vast (and I mean vast) majority of references to homosexuality in that community are slurs. Really, really ugly ones.
So we have a blanket policy saying, no mentioning of sexual orientation in your profile or gamertag. Period. Because, while it's possible that such a mention in a gamertag/profile is a perfectly true, totally non-offensive statement about an individual's self-identified sexual orientation, the odds more strongly favor it being a nasty, hateful comment (or at best, a tasteless one).
If a given behavior has a 1% chance of being legitimate, and a 99% chance of being a TOS violation, doesn't a ban make sense? I'm not sure I'm willing to blame Microsoft for not wanting to go through thousands upon thousands of gamer profiles for approval on a case-by-case basis.
And yeah, why do you feel it's important to proclaim your sexual orientation on XBox live anyway?
Your playing a video game online with a group of pre-pubescent kids and teenagers who are granted nearly full anonymity without any fear of punishment, what did you expect?
Now, due to the vague explanation of what happened given in the article linked in the story, I'm going to make some assumptions here. I would assume that:
* Some kids on Xbox Live noticed that the gamer identified herself as lesbian.
* Due to ignorance, or just for the "lulz", kids decide to file fake complaints against the gamertag in question to get the account banned.
* Microsoft's fully-automated complaint system receives numerous reports from many people about the gamertag in question, and automatically bans the account.
This just goes to show what a failure Microsoft's disciplinary system is. Microsoft made these game consoles and FREE headsets available to kids and teenagers, as well as adults. So, with that many people using an online service, it's fairly obvious that SOMEONE will abuse the system, break rules, etc.
And yet, Microsoft decides to not only use a centralized network infrastructure for Xbox Live, rather than the infrastructure used by most online PC games, but they even made the disciplinary system fully automated. No human involvement. No one checks the validity of reports. No one is in the games to ban abusers. No way of even verifying weather or not a ban was justified or not when someone calls Microsoft's Tech Support. Such an easy thing to abuse.
By contrast, nearly all servers on PC games are administered properly. There's at least one admin on, admins ban the hackers, cheaters, racist/homophobic people, and maintain their server's rules. Nothing's automated. There's always human involvement.
I don't think Microsoft intentionally banned this person or refused to re-activate the account because the user is lesbian. Live's servers received compliments from a bunch of people, automated system bans the account, with no way of telling weather or not the compliments were legitimate or created fraudulently.
Microsoft seems to be ignoring the lesson here: You can't trust machines to babysit children.
Why should announcing your sexual orientation start a fight? The bad behavior is on the part of people who feel that it is ok to persecute someone for talking about their sexual orientation.
Okay. I'm going to go down to the local lesbian bar (I used to drink there with some friends) and say, loudly but not unreasonably so, "I like to screw chicks!" Repeatedly.
Let's see how long it takes before the police show up. I'd be lucky if someone politely asked me to cut it out, because I'm a big guy, and I look dangerous.
It's all about context, dude. Look past your prejudices.
Furthermore, the article says "Teresa says that she was harassed by other players and later suspended..." What this is known as, in rules of evidence, is hearsay.
She is supposing, perhaps assuming, that Microsoft has banned her for that reason. Well guess what? I've had people say I hit them, in a crowd, when I didn't even touch them. There's no quoted email from Microsoft saying, "HI. WE ARE THE MICROSOFT AND WE BANNED U 4 THE GAY." There needs to be some evidence for this to be more than just Internet flotsam.
I'm sorry, but in the age of blogs and Internet truthiness, all of you gullible types are going to have to bone up on what is admissible evidence, because it's generally equal to what counts as credible evidence.
This sounds, barring actual evidence, very much like someone who has a chip on her shoulder about being a lesbian, assuming and projecting her own pathologies onto a corporation because they are unlikely to challenge her. Anyone who had any evidence at all could provide some kind of official correspondence, or at the very least, anyone with a clue could fake it.
This is just someone trolling. And you bit. So did Slashdot. Nuff said. Look past your prejudices.
--
Toro
For a real post, this article has insight Mr. Richard Gaywood gets banned
"I only speak the truth"
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I say "Shut up about your sexual orientation" to everyone. Come on, ban everyone who says they're straight too!
I refused to state my sexual orientation on the grounds that I would annoy me if I did.
Never thought a Star Trek TNG quote would apply to anything but...
"When children learn to devalue others, they can devalue anyone - including their parents." - Captain Jean-Luc Picard
"Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted." -Groucho Marx
Why should announcing your sexual orientation start a fight? The bad behavior is on the part of people who feel that it is ok to persecute someone for talking about their sexual orientation.
It shouldn't. But announcing sexual orientation, much like announcing opinion on /., can be done in various troll/flamebait ways. Compare and contrast:
"Hi! My name is soandso and I'm a lesbian here in whereever, USA. My favorite games right now are Gears of War and Catan."
"Hi! My name is soandso and I'm an oppressed lesbian here in Redneck City (wherever), USA. Fuck Christians! I'm gay and fuck God if he hates fags. Christians are all closet fags anyway with priests molesting lol"
This story simply isn't complete without the full text of her profile.
More Twoson than Cupertino
A few points:
What gives you the right to tell Microsoft "I've decided that your network isn't going to be family friendly"?
She wasn't telling Microsoft that, it's more common knowledge that their network isn't family friendly. I can say the sky is blue, but that's not telling the sky to be blue.
Video games started largely as an activity of children, and thanks to the Wii, is headed back in that direction.
I'd say the opposite - from what I've seen, the Wii seems to be moving gaming closer to an adult demographic.
Ultimately, its their network, a private entity. If she doesn't like their policies, then go somewhere else.
Just like if I don't like their policy of "No blacks allowed," I can simply find some other network to play my Xbox 360 on.
Yeah, you're absolutely right. Why confront bigotry and set clear rules against it, when you can just ignore the problem and maintain an environment where mentioning an alternative sexual orientation will get you harassed? Let us, as you say, do absolutely nothing about the problem, and hope that education will slowly convince them.
Wait, what education? I thought nothing would be done about it? Didn't you also just say that "they don't know they're wrong, and they never will?" Can you make up your mind?
I guess people should also just keep from attaching pictures of themselves to their profiles, in case whoever's watching might have something against their race.
I guess she should also avoid mentioning that she's a woman, since maybe 1 in a 100 people might think video games are no place for women and she shouldn't shove the fact that she's playing in their faces, right? I guess people who are bigoted little shits with thin skin should have their precious feelings coddled, right, or else they'll throw a tantrum and it'll be my fault.
Some people stamped their feet and howled and threatened to hold their breath until they got their way, and your solution is to spoil the brats further.
Honestly, your rhetoric sounds like that of many people I know who like to outwardly pretend they're tolerant but who are inwardly homophobic, and have decided to adpat the position "my problem isn't homosexuals, it is that they shove it in my face." Of course, by shove it in your face, you would be refering to the fact that they have the audacity to openly exist and wish to seek relationships with like minded consentual adults, something they can't do without mentioning the fact that they have no interest in persons with certain genital configurations.
If you have a problem with open, out sexuality then you are the one who has the problem. If your skin is so thin that people have to walk on eggshells around you, then you need to toughen up. I, for one, have no patience with that kind of person and have no tolerance left for the intolerant.
The world you experience is only a close approximation of reality.
Do you understand the concept of 'victim blaming'? You're right, we could avoid the issue of people starting fights over other people's sexuality by banning the mention of other sexualities from people's profiles, but why should this policy be enforced across the board? Why can't users choose whether they'd like to closet themselves and avoid conflict or be open?
Also, being gay is not mutually exclusive with being a homophobe--I feel bad that you've convinced yourself that people who make *any mention at all* of their sexuality are giving other gay men and women a bad name.
I think you've missed the GP's point. I've met a number of (admittedly teenage) lesbians (and a couple of gay men) who seem to treat their sexual orientation as their primary defining personality feature. It's worse than a lot of other obsessions because they often seem to need to mention it at every available opportunity and try to challenge you with it. If someone's lesbian/gay I don't really care, once you get past the whole "lesbians + me" lesbian fantasy and the "asses to the walls" homophobia a persons sexual orientation isn't a big deal.
It's wrong to ban someone just because they put "I'm a lesbian" in their profile, but I can see banning someone who is constantly forcing this on other people (like the type of person above) because that other person is irritating others with it. I have also met a man hating lesbian stereo-type, someone who might go on a game and start slagging off men in a fashion no better than trolls should be treated as a troll, regardless if their topic is about computers, cars, tv, music, sexual orientation, race or religion.
Your reaction is precisely what has gone wrong with our overly PC western society, the American "Don't ask, don't tell policy" is wrong as it forces people to hide an important part of their life that they shouldn't have to. But going to the other extreme and hiding behind that reason is far more annoying to those around you, my motorcycle is highly important to me and a fundamental part of who I am but I don't introduce myself as "I'm Steve the motorcyclist". Nor do I feel the need to troll about cars. If I did most people would consider me strange (at best) and irritating at worse. In this case unless Microsoft profiles include a sexual orientation section you have to ask why anyone would care and why a person would feel the need to put the information in there, I certainly don't feel the need to write "Straight" in my online profiles.
Reading the blog it seems (from knowing only her side) that other player's homophobia has caused this issue and she really is a victim. The fact Microsoft has come down on the homophobes side is very worrying and some sort of action needs to start to get this corrected. She deserves an apology from Microsoft and the people who have been attacking her need to be banned.
Fact: When someone says "I don't want to hear about [a gay person's] sexual orientation" what they are really saying is "Stop breaking my comfortable assumption that everyone is straight".
The enemies of Democracy are
That makes so little sense it's bizarre. It's not normally offensive to a gay person to say "I am straight", so why should it be offensive to a straight person to say "I am gay" ? Seriously, no-one here honestly believes that someone would have been banned for saying they had a boyfriend or girlfriend in their profile if they were a girl or boy respectively. No-one here honestly believes that someone's account would have been closed if their profile said: "I'm hetero." So it is correct to point out that this is a double standard. And as to other people being offended? Well you can be offended by people's actions and statements toward you, but if someone is offended by a personal detail about you, that's their problem and you shouldn't be punished for it. According to the article, this girl was hounded by others who kept following her into games and telling other players to "turn her in." That isn't acceptable if someone's profile says they're Black, or Indian or White or Christian or Muslim, and it isn't acceptable if someone says they're gay. Profiles are so you can learn a bit about the other person if you wish to. Being gay is a fundamental part of who someone is. At least most gay people would consider it to be and they're perfectly entitled to put that in their profile if they wish.
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
XBox Live has strict rules against racism. Surely racism and homophobia draw on the same irrationalities, so why doesn't XBox Live have strict rules against homophobia? It doesn't matter what people think are right and wrong. You have the right to state your race on XBox Live, and people do not have the right to antagonise you for it. You should also have the right to state your sexuality on XBox Live, and people should not be allowed to antagonise you for it.
There's a time and place for everything, and XBox Live certainly is not the place for homophobia. It is, however, a place for casual conversation, whatever that may constitute. Including your sexual orientation.
My analogies are perfectly sound. If you think otherwise, I'd suggest that you explain yourself, rather than just saying so. You're stumbling over your own feet, contradicting yourself multiple times within the same post. It's definitely not my argument that needs improvement.
Yeah, you're absolutely right. Why confront bigotry and set clear rules against it, when you can just ignore the problem and maintain an environment where mentioning an alternative sexual orientation will get you harassed?
Because the potential number of bigoted customers you lose is higher than the potential number of harassed customers you lose. The easiest, cheapest, and most profitable model is simply do that the largest number of your potential customers want you to do, and hang the rest. To all that say "vote with your feet/dollars", this can be the result.
I was kind of homophobic as a kid. It was only through exposure that I eventually realised I didn't give a fuck about someone's orientation. People's minds can and do change and it happens all the time. I watched some kids who were quite racist at school lose their racism when a black kid (it was a fairly white area) joined our school and it slowly dawned on these kids that when they made anti-black comments they were actually talking about one of their friends. Exposure is the way to reduce prejudice and it works all the time. But by your arguments Rosa Parks should have bloody well known her place and gone to the back of the bus. Same logic. Although this is to a far less degree. There's a profile section that says: "Tell us about yourself..." So she did. Shouldn't be her problem that some people don't like what she is. There's nothing offensive about being a lesbian, but that's what Microsoft are saying.
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
There is a difference between saying that a company has no right to do something, and saying that it's stupid and unfair of them to do that same thing. I don't think anyone here is arguing the legality / contractual compliance of the action -- just that it's a stupid stipulation to put in the terms of service in the first place.
You may not feel the need to write "Straight" in your online profiles, but the odds are good that you acknowledge your heterosexuality in one way or another, like you did several times in your post. The issue with this reasoning is that straight people flaunt their sexual orientation every bit as much as gay people do, if not far, far moreso.
That would work, if they A) wouldn't advertise to me or B) note in their advertisements of the XBox the restrictions that exist on the XBox live network, or at the very least C) advertise on the XBox box wrapping itself the restrictions of the XBox live network.
Do they, in actual fact, note such limitations on the box? No? Then I'm perfectly justified to bitch them. I may not have a legal case, but hell, I have a moral one.
I'd like to find out the full story as this sounds suspicious. IMO, if she added a note to her profile that she's a lesbian and was subsequently banned, they have treated her unfairly. If that's the case, the people who carried out the banning may well have broken the law. She'd certainly have my support, for one.
However, for all we know, she could have been causing trouble and getting into arguments with people over other issues. The linked report doesn't go into much detail other than her claim that she was banned for mentioning that she was a lesbian. I'd like to see some evidence, either way.
Michael Reed, freelance tech writer.
That's actually not a bad idea. If they had to deal with a large number of profiles all proclaiming to be gay they'd have to rethink that policy.
Problem is, they shouldn't be allowed to discriminate like that in the first damn place. I am straight myself, but this is the 21st century already. Almost everybody would be on her side if this happened because she mentioned that her boyfriend was black. When the hell is it going to recognized as a basic human right to be with anyone you want as long as that person is a consenting adult? It's way past time to get rid of this Bible-thumping, repressed Victorian crap.
I dream of a better world... one in which chickens can cross roads without their motives being questioned.
And many people consider Muslims to be evil and Blacks to be stupid and Jews to be conspirators. Does that mean these rules should apply to all of those descriptors as well?
I see the glass as full with a FoS of 2.
and who is at fault? the ones causing all the trouble over it? or the one shoving it in their face while they'd rather just not know? imo both are just as wrong
If they didn't want to know about the person, they wouldn't be viewing their profile. If I asked you to tell me about yourself and you identify yourself as a Christian, is that shoving your religion in my face?
which overpowers the right of the majority not to be offended by them.
This right here is where you go off the deep-end and become someone who is need of a serious ass-kicking.
Let me bold this for you: there is no right for anyone to not be offended. Now go pay attention in Civics class before I run you off to a gulag.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
That's just flat out wrong, on both counts. Maybe you'd be safe declaring your homosexuality in, say, the Castro district of San Francsico. But even in, say, Hunter's Point or China Basin in San Francisco, you would get your ass BEAT for doing that. Reverend Phelps, on the other hand, goes around to funerals of gays all over the US with his inbred clan and they hold up signs and chant things like, "God hates fags!" without being stopped. At FUNERALS.
You seem as though you are jealous of minorities for getting to play the victim card. You seem to want to play the victim card yourself, but you aren't really a victim, so you invent things that sound like, "I'm a victim because people don't agree with me about being a bigot." I'm guessing you are a member of the dominant culture and have never had to face any kind of serious prejudice.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
That's actually not a bad idea.
Well, that depends on which end of the ban-hammer you're at, and whether or not your account is paid for.
I'm sure that M$ will be quite happy to kill a few thousand accounts and laugh all the way to the bank for people violating their TOS.
[End Of Line]
What SHOULD they write in it? That they're a gamer? Gee, you don't say, never would have expected to read in a GAMER profile that the person is a GAMER. If you aren't writing a little bit about who you are in your profile for /just about anything/ then your profile is completely useless.
And for the record, I've heard and seen many gamers talk about their families or relationships both in game and on profile pages. It's neither uncommon nor completely inappropriate in itself. Banning somebody for it, even if there are people out there who are irrationally intimidated by and intolerant of your preferences in a sexual partner, is simply absurd.
Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
No. As opposed to a (non-average) hetero teenage male gamer, who runs around saying "I LOVE PUSSY!", or "I'm God's gift to women. Behold my cock!" It's one thing to be open about one's sexual orientation (whatever it is), and another thing entirely to embellish it to the point of irritation.
The lesbians that I, personally, know (and know of) are pretty quiet about the whole thing, just as I am about my own sexuality. Same thing with the gay folks that I consider friends. But just because I'm accepting, doesn't mean that I invite loud proclamations of anyone's sexuality into my life. I'd rather treat people based on their treatment of me, non-sexually, than on boisterous claims of their sexual preference, or worse, the depth of a man's throat or the length of a girl's tongue.
Those things aren't important to me. And the converse is also true: Even as a hetero male who definitely enjoys a good blow job[1], especially one that employs the exquisite feel of the tonsils and the soft palette, I'd really care not to know how deep a girl's throat is, or how long a man's tongue is -- especially in a gaming environment.
What this has to do with Xbox Live bans, I'm not sure, but I'm just trying to reiterate OP's point, which you took to such an extreme that it seems that you've lost it entirely.
[1]: This statement might be offensive to some. And, if this were a family-oriented service like Xbox Live, I'd expect repercussions for it. But it's Slashdot, so: *shrug* If it offends you, then I guess my point is thus validated.
Kid-proof tablet..
Your tactic here is known as 'poisoning the well.' You want to put a shadow of a doubt out there. You have no proof of any misconduct on this woman's part, but plenty of proof of other's misconduct. People shout 'fag' all the time on Xbox Live. Guys hit on girls all the time there. Yet no one punishes them. You hear this woman's story and immediately begin a propaganda campaign implying, again and again, that she must have done something offensive. Why is that?
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton