Slashdot Mirror


Reversing Undesirable Fish Evolution

TaeKwonDood writes "Your granddad's approach to fishing — throw the little 'uns back — may have hurt their evolution, but we can reverse that, says a group of researchers, with a change of policy. Fish have been 'reprogramming' themselves to be smaller and live longer. Welcome to evolutionary dynamics, Lamarck. But, no, they are serious. And it can be fixed within 12 generations. What do the smart people out there think about this? Are they using the term 'evolution' the wrong way?"

15 of 216 comments (clear)

  1. Re:Evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    You're forgetting that that would cause a disruption of the protein harmonic stabilizing field causing a reversal of the space-time continuum!

  2. Clear example of directional selection... by interactive_civilian · · Score: 5, Informative

    Are they using the term 'evolution' the wrong way?

    Nope. It seems correct to this biology teacher. This is a clear case of directional selection. Keep eliminating the larger fish and the median size of fish in the population will be smaller. So, by taking the large ones, we are selecting against them and for smaller fish and juveniles. If, over time the frequencies of the alleles for large and small change in the population, then we have, by definition, evolution.

    What makes you think this wouldn't be an example of evolution?

    --
    "Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
    1. Re:Clear example of directional selection... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Are they using the term 'evolution' the wrong way?

      What makes you think this wouldn't be an example of evolution?

      Mostly the desire to be a self-righteous pedant and ask Slashdot armchair biologists to weigh in and overrule a group of university researchers.

    2. Re:Clear example of directional selection... by guyminuslife · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I do wonder if the poster actually read the article. It uses the word "reprogrammed" once, as a metaphor, and it's not the fish "reprogramming themselves," it's the selective harvesting.

      I'm beginning to wonder if it's worth it to come here if the blurbs misrepresent the articles so badly.

      --
      I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
    3. Re:Clear example of directional selection... by wizardforce · · Score: 4, Insightful

      of course there are actual biologists who read slashdot that don't think highly of evolution being thought of in terms of a ladder but rather fitness and genetic change over time in order to maximize the chances that organisms can and do reproduce. the summery did a poor job of phrasing what the researchers actually said on the matter calling it "bad for their evolution" in contrast to being "undesirable [from humanity's perspective] evolution" for which the latter is far more accurate and the former.

      --
      Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
    4. Re:Clear example of directional selection... by beckerist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Eeeeexactly. Reverse evolution is like "reverse discrimination" *cough*BULLSHIT*cough*

      Evolution is evolution... Just because we might be the primary environmental factor OR we might BECOME the primary factor doesn't make it "reverse."

    5. Re:Clear example of directional selection... by VDragon99 · · Score: 4, Informative

      "If, over time the frequencies of the alleles for large and small change in the population, then we have, by definition, evolution."

      No, we haven't. We just have frequency variation. But we haven't change the gene pool a dime. Without new characteristics we have no evolution, by definition.

      I have to agree with GP, we indeed have evolution, by definition. Evolution is not defined by "new characteristics", whatever that is. Could you please provide a reference that defines evolution as "new characteristics"?

      Evolution is (as I have learned during my biology studies) defined as a change in allele frequency. If the genetic make-up of the population changes from one generation to another (and frequency variation constitutes such a change), then we have evolution.

      Furthermore, you assume that only frequencies change. That need not be the case. A phenotypical change in size (as in this case) might also very well be caused by mutation, what might be a "new characteristic". Superficially you have no way if distinguishing the two processes.

  3. Sounds like evolution by mooingyak · · Score: 4, Informative

    Are they using the term 'evolution' the wrong way?"

    If being smaller enables the fish to survive long enough to breed, then no. Big fish die off, small fish breed.

    --
    William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
  4. Darwin, not Lamarck by sheath · · Score: 5, Informative

    What does Lamarck have to do with it? These fish haven't been passing down traits they've developed during their lifetimes - we've been killing all the big fish, so smaller fish are selectively left to breed. That's Darwinian evolution.

    In normal situations, I'd imagine that bigger fish tend to reproduce more often. But when some external force (e.g., thousands of fishers in boats with GPS and big nets) changes things, you get a different outcome.

    If we preferred to eat fish that were darker in colour, they'd be getting lighter instead.

    Either TaeKwonDood misunderstands evolution, or rushed to post his article a little too quickly...

    --

    ---sheath
  5. Are they using the term evolution the wrong way? by Chuck+Chunder · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No, but you're being rather careless with your language.

    It hasn't "hurt" their evolution. Their evolution has been helpful, based on the selection pressures they face.

    Nor are the fish "reprogramming themselves". The species' genetic make up may be shifting (in a loose sense "reprogrammed") but they aren't doing it to themselves.

    --
    Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
  6. Undesirable? Tell me about it by Tablizer · · Score: 4, Funny

    One species is trying to grow legs and arms so it can crawl to land and build nuclear weapons to end the world. We must stop this before it's too late!. -Anonymous Anomalocaris

  7. Its called Breeding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Animal Husbandry has been doing it for years in one form or another.

    See Wikipedia

    Of course, if you leave the runts of the litter only, you end up with smaller critters. Its how many lap dogs were bred in the first place.

    And like any breeder can tell you, of course it can be fixed in 12 animal generations!

  8. See the same things with elephant tuskers ... by Gopal.V · · Score: 5, Interesting

    For years, the elephants in southern India have been hunted for their tusks. Fifteen years ago, you could very well run into a lone tusker in the wild with metre long tusks.

    But now of late, there are baby elephants being born who grow up to be fertile males without the large tusks. With tiny foot long points out of their mouths, instead of something resembling the original giants that I used to love.

    It's almost as if the poachers are even more of a significant selection force than nature and female preference put together.

  9. Helped their evolution by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 5, Insightful

    just because those fish didn't evolve the way we would have liked that it somehow means that it "hurt their evolution."

    I'd in fact go further and say it has helped their evolution. If they become small enough that us humans cannot be bothered with them then they have managed to eliminate the most dangerous predator on the planet as a concern. Seems like a smart move to me.

    1. Re:Helped their evolution by TempeTerra · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'd in fact go further and say it has helped their evolution.

      More precisely, you can't 'hurt' or 'help' evolution - you can't even really evolve in a 'bad' direction since evolution by definition increases the survivability of the species. An individual mutation could be good or bad, but evolution is the process of selecting the good mutations.

      As you say, in this case 'good' means 'humans don't eat me'.

      Now, TFA may mention this (but how would I know?), but the clever thing for fishermen to do is to catch the biggest, tastiest fish and then breed them. This leverages evolution by making 'tasty to humans' a survival trait. If you doubt this works, consider sheep, pigs, cows, wheat and rice.

      --
      .evom ton seod gis eht