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Fermilab Not Dead Yet, Discovers Rare Single Top Quark

Several sources are reporting that in spite of LHC hype, Fermilab's Tevatron has produced another feat for scientific discovery. Currently the world's most powerful operating particle accelerator, the Tevatron has allowed researchers to observe a rare single Top Quark. "Previously, top quarks had only been observed when produced by the strong nuclear force. That interaction leads to the production of pairs of top quarks. The production of single top quarks, which involves the weak nuclear force and is harder to identify experimentally, has now been observed, almost 14 years to the day of the top quark discovery in 1995."

53 of 194 comments (clear)

  1. And by Mozk · · Score: 5, Funny

    This quark was not charmed by being photographed.

    --
    No existe.
    1. Re:And by Amazing+Quantum+Man · · Score: 4, Funny

      That sounds rather strange.

      --
      Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
    2. Re:And by CaptainPatent · · Score: 3, Funny

      This quark was not charmed by being photographed.

      Strange.

      --
      Well, back to rejecting software patent applications.
    3. Re:And by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Should I mod this "up" or "down" ?

    4. Re:And by CaptainPatent · · Score: 5, Funny

      Should I mod this "up" or "down" ?

      If we measure, won't that change the outcome?

      --
      Well, back to rejecting software patent applications.
    5. Re:And by staryc · · Score: 5, Funny

      Should I mod this "up" or "down" ?

      If we measure, won't that change the outcome?

      We should let it simultaneously exist as funny and not exist as funny.

      --
      The most perfidious way of harming a cause consists of defending it deliberately with faulty arguments. - Nietzche
    6. Re:And by CaptainPatent · · Score: 5, Funny

      We should let it simultaneously exist as funny and not exist as funny.

      Well that certainly puts a spin on things.

      --
      Well, back to rejecting software patent applications.
    7. Re:And by Samschnooks · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It will happen both ways. There'll be a whole Universe created when you mod one way, another for modding another, yet another for not modding, and still others where you don't ask this question and this one where you did ask. Multiverse. Of course I created a universe by posting this. There's another universe where I did not post and instead pleasured myself with some hairy milf porn.

    8. Re:And by interkin3tic · · Score: 5, Funny

      It's going to be hard to top that one. And... uh... my bottom hurts.

      (that last one was a stretch I know)

    9. Re:And by DrLudicrous · · Score: 4, Informative

      High energy physics has a rich history of spinoff technologies. Ever had an MRI? The superconducting magnets used in an MRI machine come out of particle accelerators. Massive amounts of data analysis? Talk to a high energy physicist. And as final tongue-in-cheek example, have you used the Internet lately? Invented at CERN.

    10. Re:And by FiniteSum · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The minute you try to make scientific research into a commodity like this, you will kill all scientific research. Do you think 19th century physicists had iPhones in mind when they were creating rudimentary batteries and experimenting with electromagnetism? Do you think Maxwell only published his famous paper so he could enable the creation of hybrid cars? Could anyone have predicted digital computers? Hell, could the inventors of digital computers have predicted modern desktops?

    11. Re:And by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      And as final tongue-in-cheek example, have you used the Internet lately? Invented at CERN.

      WWW, not Internet. Some of us were perfectly happy with our Gopher and FTP before the new-fangled web stuff came along.

    12. Re:And by MarkRose · · Score: 2, Funny

      We should let it simultaneously exist as funny and not exist as funny.

      That would be almost as spooky as pink ponies!

      --
      Be relentless!
    13. Re:And by AJWM · · Score: 4, Informative

      And as final tongue-in-cheek example, have you used the Internet lately? Invented at CERN.

      I'm guessing by "tongue-in-cheek" you mean "totally wrong".

      The Internet was not invented at CERN -- it was invented by DARPA back in 1969 -- the World Wide Web (more specifically, HTTP) was invented at CERN.

      --
      -- Alastair
    14. Re:And by dpiven · · Score: 2, Funny

      have you used the Internet lately? Invented at CERN.

      World Wide Web (invented at CERN) != Internet (invented by Al Gore).

    15. Re:And by Idiomatick · · Score: 2, Funny

      I think this whole interaction is weak. Anti-funny really, sorry to be so negative my mother was a muon.

    16. Re:And by rubycodez · · Score: 4, Funny

      And... uh... my bottom hurts.....a stretch I know

      sounds like your charm and beauty led to a strange coupling

    17. Re:And by HeadlessNotAHorseman · · Score: 5, Funny

      >>High energy physics has a rich history of spinoff technologies. Ever had an MRI?
      >>The superconducting magnets used in an MRI machine come out of particle accelerators.

      I can't count the number of times people have stolen the super-conducting magnets from my particle accelerator to make MRI machines. Right now I'm stuck with a backlog of stationary particles in a jar in my back shed. I tried accelerating them by putting them in the passenger seat and driving down the road really fast, but it just wasn't the same :-(

      --
      I like my coffee the way I like my women - roasted and ground up into little tiny pieces.
    18. Re:And by markov_chain · · Score: 4, Funny

      I think there is a high probability this thread will collapse into a series of bad puns.

      --
      Tsunami -- You can't bring a good wave down!
    19. Re:And by stox · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Just a few examples from Fermilab:

      ACP/MAPS: One of the pioneers in the use of massively parallel computers in science. Built and designed at Fermilab, was once the top of the super computer list.

      IBM Farms: Inspired IBM's SP1, which has then lead to the Blue Gene series of computers. The Farms, both IBM and SGI, at Fermilab also pioneered the use of computer farms. It may be where the term "farm" originated.

      Fermilab was a very early adopter of Linux. Bob Young, one of the founders of RedHat, credits that adoption with the early success of Linux.

      --
      "To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
    20. Re:And by metlin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ha. Fourier was proud of being a pure mathematician. Today, his works are amongst the most applied in just about every digital processing system.

    21. Re:And by lorenlal · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Agreed. Moderators were distracted by the plethora of particular humor above, and didn't notice that this post that was marked "redundant" was posted WAY before most of the jokes above. At 7:43 this was a perfectly legit comment.

      Please mods, correct this. This only encourages usage of the FRPoR (first reasonable post or reply) for all future moderation or karma gains. This was quite funny, and I am giving CaptainPatent a +1 in my mind.

    22. Re:And by edsyc · · Score: 3, Funny

      Al Gore created both the internet and world wide web, you idiots!

    23. Re:And by rsandwick3 · · Score: 2, Funny

      tough to gauge where all these off-color remarks are coming from... maybe we're from different generations?

    24. Re:And by khallow · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I think you need to look at the original post again which refers instead to justification. Scientific research which is publicly funded should be treated no differently than any other endeavor that does so. So as I see it, there are several matters which need justification:
      1. Is the research worthwhile? Contrary to your assertion above, I believe we can evaluate potential research. Several of the discoveries you mention had near future value. Fundamental physics research has long shown value, being connected to many of the most important advances the human race has ever made.
      2. Can the research be done better by private industry? For example, virtually all desktop computer development was private. For a more scientific example, miniaturization of electronics, fiber optics, and similar IT-related technologies are mostly privately funded. Research particle accelerators don't yet have the near future application that usually drives private endeavors.
      3. Is the money being spent in a responsible and effective manner?

      If these reasonable justifications will "destroy" "scientific research", then by all means destroy whatever that is.

    25. Re:And by MarkRose · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yep, it descretely walked the planck a while ago...

      --
      Be relentless!
    26. Re:And by Plutonite · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I know, right? Let's stop trying to understand universal truths that are important enough to transcend human beings and their planet and their entire existence, and instead go back to being lowly pointless animals. Where were you since antiquity, you savior you?

      Tax payers have funded worse things than science. By your logic, most of pure mathematics should not be funded or encouraged either, in which case neither you nor JFK would have ever thought twice about the moon (that bright thing in the heavens), and your talk of nuclear physics would get you burnt at a stake. Knowledge is more important than breeding.

    27. Re:And by w0mprat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The Internet was not invented at CERN -- it was invented by DARPA back in 1969

      Not quite. DARPAnet was hardly 'Internet' as we know it, since the Internet is best defined as a collection of protocols and so much has changed since the DARPA days. For one example it used NCP to move data, TCP/IP and DNS were to follow in the 80's. BGP was standardised even later (1989). The internet as we know it was whole by the time the web was ready, but by then removed enough from what was happening with DARPAnet. Right now, we're yet to see true Internet 2.0 be ready (IPV6, DNSSEC whatever the hell else), but at some point all the old protocols will be redundant and you could say the internet has been replaced.

      Particle physics is generating huge volumes of data. I remember hearing about physicists needing to move a 40 terabyte set of data internationally in 1996 -- in the end they had to do it by a literal container load of disks. Today worldwide research networks (Yes, Internet 2.0, cliche) can move this data over fibre in practical time frames. LHC will be producing mind boggling amounts.

      It's this kind of bleeding edge usage of the internet that is driving infrastructure development forward. Dollars spent at Fermi lab and the like have nontrivial indirect benefits this way. I would argue that the pool of research money that drove universities to need to connect up internationally and spawn the Internet 1.0 has much more than been paid off in gains to the global economy.

      That's the justification for keeping this research going even in a worldwide recession.

      --
      After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
    28. Re:And by amchugh · · Score: 2, Funny

      Single top quarks can't be charmed without becoming topless, and then they don't like to be photographed until you ply them with enough drinks that they collapse.

    29. Re:And by kohaku · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, no, no! This is not a healthy line of thought! There is absolutely no way you can predict with certainty the future benefits of any scientific research. Even electricity was of uncertain value. The very point of public funding is for research whose benefits aren't obvious, but whose results are a benefit to science as a whole. You say that you believe it is possible to 'evaluate potential research'. How do you go about doing that? What are your criteria? Does research which has no practical application whatsoever but advances understanding of the whole get swept under the carpet?
      One might argue that without establishments such as the Royal Society, a lot of great scientists in Great Britain might never have been able to publish.

    30. Re:And by Dr.+Cody · · Score: 3, Funny

      That's what makes it the sweetest revenge against his kind.

    31. Re:And by impaledsunset · · Score: 2, Funny

      I was once modded -5: Anti-funny, but that on another Slashdot. You should see how this story looked there, when they discovered the top antiquark.

    32. Re:And by Mr2cents · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think high energy physics and cosmology should always predicate the latest sexy experiment with some justification given the expense to the taxpayers as to what the applicability of all this is.

      The cost of these experiments should be measured in F-16 fighters or something like that instead of dollars, it would make it seem negligable.

      Just look at the budget in the USA and you'll see that most of the money goes to the industry of death, so they spend it on destruction instead of creativity.

      Yet this fact seems to be brainwashed out of the publics' mind, so instead of protesting against the outrageous military spendings, people are whining about some Fermilab research budget. Pathetic!

      --
      "It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful." - Anton LaVey
  2. Better Post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    You might find Tomasso's piece better - he works with the CDF group.

    http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2009/03/05/who-discovered-single-top-production/

  3. Re:I wonder by Jamamala · · Score: 3, Insightful

    How about explaining why protons have a +1 charge and neutrons have no charge? I'd say that's pretty useful. Ditto with explaining the charge of the anti-nucleons.

  4. Re:I wonder by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 4, Funny

    Hmm. The use of quarks are like saying what is the use of an child.

    Coincidentally in this case the answer is the same: Nothing.

  5. Bare/Single quark? by cblack · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Just to be clear, this isn't a single/bare quark w/o a partner is it? As I thought isolating quarks outside of a hadron (w/ 1 or 2 other quarks) was not possible due to the nature of the strong force. Is what they are really saying is that they got an event to force just one top quark to decay once released from a hadron rather than 2 or more at once?

    1. Re:Bare/Single quark? by parrillada · · Score: 5, Informative

      They are saying that the top quark is being produced one at a time, rather than in pairs (IAAP). It's actually subtle -- what had been observed before were 2 top quarks emerging from a gluon. Now they have observed one top quark (and another quark) emerging from a W-boson. Basically. This is not a major discovery, but it is another important showing off of the 'standard model' working very well at the energies we have so far probed.

      Oh, and about isolating quarks. You cannot isolate a quark outside a hadron, but you can 'detect' the quark by observing the hadrons and leptons that it decays into, since they leave a distinct signature. The top quark is special because it decays before it even forms a hadron with other quarks.

    2. Re:Bare/Single quark? by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 3, Informative

      Now they have observed one top quark (and another quark) emerging from a W-boson.

      Actually that is only one of the single-top processes that we looked for. You can also have a W-boson exchange which changes the flavour of two quarks, one of them into a top. With enough statistics you can distinguish the two different mechanisms and measure their ratio which is a good way to detect new physics.

      You cannot isolate a quark outside a hadron... The top quark is special because it decays before it even forms a hadron with other quarks.

      So, in fact, you can actually study isolated top quarks which are outside a hadron because the top quark never exists in a bound state. Indeed this is one of the interesting things about the top quark in that you can study the properties of an unbound quark.

    3. Re:Bare/Single quark? by Phroon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This is not a major discovery, but it is another important showing off of the 'standard model' working very well at the energies we have so far probed.

      Single-top is, however, one of the backgrounds in the search for the Higgs boson. For Fermilab to discover the Higgs, they have to discover single-top first.

  6. Re:I wonder by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 2, Interesting

    How about explaining why protons have a +1 charge and neutrons have no charge? I'd say that's pretty useful. Ditto with explaining the charge of the anti-nucleons.

    Actually, they don't explain "why" they have +1 charge. Merely elaborate on the idea that they do so.

    Note also that the reason that protons have +1 charge isn't especially useful, in and of itself. Interesting, perhaps, but not useful.

    --

    "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
  7. Does anyone else find it 'strange' that.... by zappepcs · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Fermilab seemed to be counted out, no longer useful, with the advent of the LHC? How many recent science ventures turned out to be more useful than originally thought, and initially thought less useful than a replacement?

    Space station? Hubble telescope? Mars rovers? ... you get the point. Why would anyone count Fermilab out? I just find that odd. Sure, it doesn't have the professed capabilities of the LHC, but then neither does the LHC right now. I seem to remember something about not fixing it if it ain't broke being relatively true.

    I expect more from Fermilab too.

    This is so much like American Idol or something ... gah!

  8. Re:I wonder by dtremenak · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Interesting, perhaps, but not useful.

    All the more reason to teach it. We should be trying to get students interested in science.

  9. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  10. Re:size doesn't matter by loganljb · · Score: 4, Funny

    I think that what this actually demonstrates is that it isn't the size of the accelerator that matters -- it's how long you can keep it running before it explodes.

  11. I'm dumb, I think. by bucky0 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I thought unbound (single) quarks were didn't exist?

    --

    -Bucky
    1. Re:I'm dumb, I think. by jd · · Score: 3, Funny

      They do, but in the Middle East, they are not permitted to be seen in public without wearing a full atom.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    2. Re:I'm dumb, I think. by Phroon · · Score: 2, Informative

      There's a few things going on here that are related in different ways.

      1) The single-top isn't the only quark being produced, it's actually produced with a bottom quark at the same time. Usual top quark production is in pairs, one top quark one anti-top quark, but single-top is different; a top quark is produced with a anti-bottom quark.
      2) The top quark decays before it can hadronize. That is, it decays before it can pick up a partner quark. This is completely allowed in the Standard Model, but I'm a bit sketchy on the details. I think it behaves as though it was attached with the other quark it was produced with.

  12. Re:it's a faked signal by Phroon · · Score: 4, Informative

    Emphases mine... I am not convinced this isn't a faked signal. With that possibility having a chance of one in four million, how many millions of collisions have they done in the past 15 years? Far more than 4 million, I would suspect.

    You aren't quite grasping what he means by one in four million. This wasn't a single event we are talking about here.

    The way the statistics work is that you would have to run the entire Fermilab experiment four million times to get what they see from a fake signal. It's a cumulative probability over all the events ever recorded at Fermilab.

    ...and another thing. Look at that diagram showing a muon went here and a neutrino went there - how in the world did they detect that neutrino, I ask? I bet it zipped right through their detector without so much a pausing to say hello.

    They didn't detect it directly. The key to 'detecting' the neutrino is to count up everything else in the remnants collision and notice that it recoils off of something that you didn't detect. It acts as though what you can see in your detector is violating the conservation of energy. But in reality there's an undetectable neutrino zipping through the detector. So you calculate how much energy and in which direction such a neutrino would travel in order to conserve energy, and that's where they get that little diagram.

  13. Re:Explanation wanted by Phroon · · Score: 4, Informative

    The fine article says that this results limits the number of possible quarks. Can someone give an explanation (or even the outline of one) at a level that someone with a B.S. in physics can understand?

    One of the things single-top is sensitive to is the coupling strength of the top and bottom quarks via the weak force. The value of this coupling is tightly constrained if one assumes that there are only six quarks (ie. there are three generations of matter). The fact that they measured it and it's within the six quark ballpark means that it is very likely that there isn't another pair of quarks waiting to be discovered.

    The basic idea is that if the top and bottom coupling strength is measured to be less than the value we expect for six quarks then that means that some of that coupling strength actually goes to a different, seventh or eighth, quark. But I'm grossly simplifying things here for the general slashdot crowd.

  14. Re:You are wrong . . . by Muad'Dave · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Fission doesn't have to be the wasteful, inefficient, and proliferation-prone mess that it is today. There are more efficient, less proliferation-prone ways to provide fission-based power than wasting 98%+ of the energy in the fuel rods and storing the 'waste' in the open.

    Most estimates place the reserves of usable fuel for breeders at 600,000+ years at current consumption. That's not bad!

    I agree that fusion may well be the best answer, but do we have the luxury of waiting for it to be ready for prime time? I think we should invest in breeder technology until we can get fusion up and running reliably.

    --
    Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
  15. Update: Top Quark Cancels EHarmony.com Account by tillerman35 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Rueters, Batavia IL: Citing a weak nuclear force and inability to provide satisfying quantum entanglement, a local Top Quark has cancelled his EHarmony.com account and given up on finding a paired partner. "I feel like I'm decaying into something strange. I'm down all the time. At the bottom of my barrel. It's sort of like I'm never quite sure of where I am, or where I'm going, or at least not both at the same time," said the disappointed fundamental particle of creation.

    EHarmony.com representatives say they tried to talk the depressed 31x10^-33year-old, but were unable to convince him to keep his account active. "We don't offer refunds, but we did him an additional 6 femtoseconds to find that scintillating someone."

    When interviewed, the parents of the particle, also expressed disappointment. "We were hoping he'd find a Jewish girl, get married, maybe give us a little boson someday. Where did I go wrong?" sobbed his mother. "He'll be fine, honey" said the quark's father, comforting his wife. "After all, we had to go through 20 billion collisions to find each other, didn't we?" The father, a well-respected lawyer and his wife, a homemaker, live in Hackensack but speak to their son regularly.

    Looking at his latest matches, the Top Quark sighed. "Mom and Dad are so different. He's a proton, she's so totally anti-proton. I don't know. If they could find each other, why can't I find anybody?"

  16. Re:Queue the gay, leather scene, quark jokes by geekgirlandrea · · Score: 2, Funny

    Are the top quarks rarer than the sub bottom quarks?

    Yes, but they wear one of eight different colors of gluon in their left pants pocket so you can identify them easily.