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Reflected Gravitational Waves

WSOGMM sends in an arXiv blog post about reflecting gravity waves. The speculation is that reflected gravity could go some ways toward explaining the odd readings being returned by Gravity Probe B. "In the couple of weeks since he introduced the idea that superconducting sheets can reflect gravity waves, Raymond Chiao from the University of California, Merced, has been busy with a couple of buddies working out how big this effect is... Chiao and co. ask how big the effect of a gravitational wave on a thin superconducting sheet is compared to the effect on an ordinary conducting sheet. The answer? 42 orders of magnitude bigger."

14 of 329 comments (clear)

  1. Possible correlation? by ma11achy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    From the article:
    "If there were an obvious interaction between a superconducting films and gravitational waves, wouldn't Gravity Probe B have picked them up somehow?.....As it turns out, the experiment has been throwing out anomalous results ever since it was launched......The team has puzzled over them for years now....."

    I really do love those moments in science when something you have puzzled over for years may have an elegant answer after all.

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    1. Re:Possible correlation? by JamesP · · Score: 5, Informative

      You know what's too bad? The anomalous effects in GPB have been explained, peer reviewed, etc, in the final report http://einstein.stanford.edu/content/final_report/GPB_Final_NASA_Report-020509-web.pdf

      And, AFAIK, it was "expected" from build imperfections in the spheres, and has nothing to do with gravity waves. Maybe there's something hidden there, but it's probably a very small signal not the huge (compared to the target) wobbling due to the process described there.

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    2. Re:Possible correlation? by Kjella · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah those moments are what you do it for... that and tenure :-)

      Tenure is what you get when your experiments go as planned. The Nobel Prize is when they don't.

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    3. Re:Possible correlation? by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I thought the Nobel Prize is for when you make up something and get everyone to believe it as fact.

      That's an interesting idea you have. If you can convince enough people of it then you could win the Nobel Prize.

  2. Re:So... by strawberryutopia · · Score: 5, Informative

    Nine thousand and one

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  3. Gravity wave detectors. by Therefore+I+am · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Doesn't this discovery also lead to the possibility of building super-sensitive gravitational wave detectors that really work....... Remember this - If you can't measure a phenomena, you have little hope of truly understanding it.

  4. This is a-posteriori explanation of GP-B issue by Zdzicho00 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Martin Tajmar also posits an a-posteriori explanation for the anomalous data from Gravity Probe B based upon Cooper-pair mass in Niobium superconductors in: arxiv.org/abs/0707.3806
    Heim Theory predicted such effects in 1950s already. Droscher & Hauser have suggested mechanism based on Heim Theory which was a-priori prediction as commented in the cover story of New Scientist Jan 2006, 3 months before Tajmar's announcement on the ESA homepage.

    Here is the latest paper from Droscher & Hauser which gives explanation for outcome of both Tajmar and GP-B experiments.

    Personally I like this part:
    Numerous experiments by Tajmar et al. were carried out since 2003, and first published in 2006 report on the generation of gravitomagnetic (spacetime twisting) and gravity-like fields (acceleration) in the laboratory. The gravitational effects measured were about 18-20 orders of magnitude larger than predicted by the Lense-Thirring effect of GR. In other words, the rotating niobium ring, having a mass of some 100 grams as utilized by Tajmar et al., produces a gravitational effect similar to the mass of a a white dwarf.

    /Joss

    1. Re:This is a-posteriori explanation of GP-B issue by Zdzicho00 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Here is correct link to ariv paper of Dr Martin Tajmar:
      http://arxiv.org/abs/0707.3806

      /Joss

  5. Re:So... by FTWinston · · Score: 5, Informative

    IAAP (ok i used to be), and I commend this distinction - its important to realise that gravitational waves are not the same thing as gravity.

    Gravity is (from one point of view) just the curvature of spacetime. Its the large sagging indentation in the rubber sheet of spacetime that a massive body creates. Gravitational waves are fluctuations in this curvature, not gravity itself.

    The distinction is somewhat akin to acceleration and velocity - consider a car (hurrah!) travelling with a very high velocity, which accelerates very slightly for a short period. If you could reflect the velocity, it would turn around instantly. Reflecting the acceleration however, causes no immediately obvious change. The car's still travelling bloody fast, in the same direction.

    The gravitational waves caused by the earth's motion & rotation are so minute that gravity probe b's measurements, taken over a whole year, still took many months of processing before they could even be detected. Gravity waves are far too weak to have any practical purposes, and certainly not in "anti gravity".

  6. Re:So... by hasdikarlsam · · Score: 5, Interesting

    While that is definitely true, and an important caveat, the fact that there is a connection at all between electromagnetism and gravity was somewhat unexpected - physicists did expect to eventually unify the theories, but probably not in a way where one affects the other like this. Don't underestimate the importance of this discovery.

    Plus, there may be corresponding interactions between, I don't know, petahertz-level magnetic or electric waves (not plain old photons, mind) that have larger, more useful effects on gravity. Maybe. At any rate, the possibility is open now; we're allowed to hope.

  7. Re:Reflected gravitational waves can be useful by Arimus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you can reflect it, you can make a curved "mirror" to concentrate it to a single point in space.
    If you can concentrate it, you can amplify it.
    And if you can amplify it, then maybe you could weaponise it

    Fixed with the more likely path.

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  8. Re:"Indentation in rubber sheet" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    "Indentation in rubber sheet" I never got that, nor did my physics teacher (who started out as a real physicist.) If we imagine gravity as a deflection in a rubber sheet, why does the object "fall" into it?

    The answer is, it doesn't fall onto it. It's called an analogy.

    You are thinking of this rubber sheet as existing in our 3 dimensions, when it would better work as a dimension of its own.

    If analogies don't work for you, then the technical answer is the objects mass causes the indentation or the 'falling into it' as you say. This mass causes a warp in spacetime, and the warping itself is what we SEE as gravity, not what gravity is however, since that is a force of nature that results from mass (or so it seems) which we can't directly observe yet, we can only observe its effect on things with mass.

    Now, WHY mass causes gravity (or the indentation on the sheet, or for the body to 'fall' into said sheet), to give us an effect we can see, we don't know yet. Hopefully this discovery can help us get closer to that understanding.

    But the biggest mistake is to think of the object 'falling into' a sheet, since that description itself uses gravity as both the description of the event, and the event itself. They are not at all the same, so there is no magic 2nd gravity field. That 2nd field you are thinking of results 100% from the poor analogy and of course doesn't exist, it just helps some people wrap their mind around the effect in a visual way.

    Basically, the falling on a sheet visual seems more helpful to right-brained people, while the maths itself is more helpful to the left brained people.
    Neither representation (visual or the maths in the theory) is complete or correct at this point, so both are bound to cause confusion if you are looking for the end-answer.

  9. Re:Reflected gravitational waves can be useful by Farmer+Tim · · Score: 5, Funny

    And if you can amplify it, then maybe you could weaponise it

    So the plan is to make soldiers heavier so they feel fat and too depressed to fight? Fiendish...

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  10. Re:We now know the question to the answer... by SlashV · · Score: 5, Funny

    It's already happened several times, actually.

    42 times, most likely.