Slashdot Mirror
Enterprise FOSS Adoption Beyond Linux Servers?
An anonymous reader writes "I am working with a couple of large companies that are purchasing web and collaboration software stacks from Microsoft, IBM and others. These are for thousands of end users and are (supposedly) ready for multiple data center deployment and other big-corp requirements. I have suggested some open source alternatives such as Liferay and Drupal, and the technical people are interested but management types are not. They have given a few reasons, such as concerns over supportability and enterprise-readiness, but my feeling is that they are being won over by FUD from large vendors and the fact that most corps do not have significant deployments of FOSS technologies beyond Linux yet. All this seems to be in line with a survey on Web-app servers by OpenLogic. So my questions are: How have you persuaded larger enterprises to adopt server-side OSS, beyond server-room Linux and a couple of demo JBoss boxes under someone's desk? And which products are truly ready for enterprise-scale deployment?"
I've plugged this before... but Sphinx is a great full text search engine. I've helped with a couple of production deployments and folks have been happy with it. The Ruby on Rails integration is good and the API is easy to use... for a simple demo including excerpt highlighting, try some searches on my military reading list site.
The Army reading list
their own version of Open Office (Lotus Symphony) as the official internal standard this year (I work for them). MS Office will not normally be approved for internal use.
Maybe not true FOSS, but close.
Hard to argue for free software when the buyer's bonuses are based on saving % off MSRP (as it is in government contract procurements). Also if a big name like IBM or Microsoft crashes and burns nobody points the finger at you because there's an entrenched certification system for the monkeys maintaining the damn thing.
moox. for a new generation.
I encountered this when I offered to set up open source web filters in each of our locations and save significant money compared to other solutions. Management agreed ipcop did everything we need, and would save a lot of money but was still hesitant. When I located local contractors in my city who could make changes if I was ever "hit by a bus" they gave me the go ahead.
If you are looking at open source consider opencms which has commercial support that your company can use when you leave or get promoted to another position.
They are still recovering from having to replatform web servers to J2EE after some enterprising (courageous) hacker developed their first web site using PERL (before mod_perl days too...).
The "real programmers" looked at it and in their assessment they said that variables should not have $ or % or @ preceding them, that the code was hard to read because they couldn't understand that name => value syntax, and besides, there were all these cool J2EE framework things to play with that had containers and required lots of servers and n->tier architecture stuff that they learned about in their computer science courses.
Having done enough J2EE to suit anybody, and with a clear understanding of when n->tier architecture is appropriate (seldom for most web applications), and having done enough commercial database work to know my way well around all the big players, the real answer is that FOSS easily meets these needs (as you already know). I have seen enlightened companies deploy PHP frameworks including Drupal, a growing use of MySQL, adoption of XEN (it must die, please) and KVM, and you'll not find corporation doing any Java work that isn't taking advantage of an IDE that's built around Eclipse and includes all the lovelies like AXIS and EMF.
Patience grasshopper. Use business terms to win.
--> Scalability
--> Ease of Acquisition
--> Return on Investment
--> Speed to Market
Then point out that there are some awfully big companies who have done wonderful things on Open Source platforms that made them leaner, faster, and stronger. Companies like Sony, IBM, Oracle, Amazon, Viacom. I'd leave out that Wall Street uses a ton of FOSS to run their back office. They don't seem to be doing that well these days and we don't want FOSS to be blamed for anything ;-)
Although I fully agree with your comment, i think you missed the point of the submission's title: in big corps, management did get convinced that linux servers aren't too risky, and they are now happily going for it (where I work management is loudly bragging about the millions they are saving with linux). Hence the question is valid: what is the reason why it isn't the case yet with say application servers ? Will it just come in due time ? Or is there a more fundamental reason, like lack of consensus about support availablility/substainability ?
Thousands of users and multiple data centers is not the time to ask major stakeholders to leave their comfort zone. "Major vendor FUD" is not the issue, assuming it exists at all. When I have a major investment at stake, I don't need a saleman to tell me where the risks are. The single biggest problem with FOSS is that there is no one to share the risks with.
The time to introduce FOSS is with small non-critical projects. It's about boiling frogs. It's also about demonstrating that community support works without the threat of cancelled contracts and lawsuits. That takes a while.
It also takes some guile. It's a bit like the early days of the PC. At that time the typical IS Manager's attitude to the PC was "over my dead body." So we sold to the end user departments using their office equipment budgets (word processors, fax, telephone, copier) and flew under the IS radar. In one large Canadian federal government department, we had over 1500 PC's and 5 networks interlinked with an X.25 WAN before the ADM/IS noticed (it was the X.25 that got us. WAN came out of his budget). By that time there was nothing he could do. The trick is to introduce it a little bit at a time until it reaches critical mass.
I'm a Programmer. That's one level above Software Engineer and one level below Engineer.
The biggest issue you need to overcome with FOSS projects in a business setting is supportability. For example, I'm on a project at the moment where I'm transitioning the customer from a proprietary unix solution onto multiple Oracle RAC clusters on Redhat; Oracle Application servers on Redhat; and Linux Virtual Server load balancing clusters, also on Redhat. This is fine, because the software stack from top to bottom is mainstream, supported by commercial vendors, and after I'm gone there is a well defined set of skills they can recruit against and train existing staff to replace me. Since getting here though I've discovered a few bespoke applications (developed in-house by people who have since left) written using Ruby on Rails. While the apps work well today, documentation is poor to non-existent, and no one is left now with skills to understand them, develop them if requirements change or support them. They aren't backed by a vendor, so if something goes wrong they're screwed. It's kind of their own fault: they gave free rain to someone who either wanted to do this stuff using his own favourite tools, or wanted a tick on his resume, instead of sticking with technologies in line with their core competencies. If you want to do something with Drupal for example, then make sure you're able to wrap it up in a support structure (from a vendor) that can give them the security they need. Another example: I convinced my current customer that switching to Zabbix for their server, application and network monitoring and alert needs would be a good thing, and they went for it. Why? Because while Zabbix is Open Source, it's also backed by a vendor (Zabbix) and they can buy a commercial support contract. In addition, being a FOSS project they could install and test it at no cost for as long as they like before making a decision and parting with their cash. So if you can tick all the boxes, you stand a much better chance of getting your ideas accepted.
And don't listen to anyone who tells you to sneak this stuff in through the back door. If it's under the radar then your employer is in for a nasty surprise if it goes wrong. And if it's business critical you'll find yourself pink slipped faster than you can blink.
Vendors should really rethink this...
Whatever they sell, they will have to support anyway...
If they sell an MS product they might get 6%, but if they sell OSS then they get 100% of whatever they sell it for... OSS isn't about zero cost, it's about freedom to use and modify the code in any way you choose. You can sell the OSS products for 7% of the cost of the MS products and still make more money off them....
It's win win for ISVs really, if the client wants to pay for something, let them pay for OSS and you keep the whole cost, and it can still be a cheaper option... If they don't want to pay then OSS is your only choice but you can afford to give it away for free because you didn't pay for it in the first place.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
In Germany and the other German speaking parts of Europe you'd have a hard time with Drupal too - but for entirely different reasons. Here Typo3 pratically owns the portal, intranet and CMS market. That's right. The FOSS Project Typo3 is the market leader for portal software in Germany and neighbours. The secondary market for soltions based on and built around Typo3 is way beyond critical mass and has been growing since around 2001. You have 3rd party vendors, "Typo3 Agencies" (an actual generic term - no joke!), a f*cking regular quarterly Typo3 magazine and hosters specialised on Typo3 with all the bells and wistles. Amazon.de scores around fourty (40!) hits for German books and training DVDs on Typo3 and Typo3 specific subjects. And if you're looking for a job as a web professional, it's more or less a safe bet to get into a little Typo3 & TypoScript - you'll get a gig in no time. Or at least a project or two to make ends meet. Even during this downtime there are serious job-offerings for this sort of thing.
Now if only T3 wouldn't be such a bizar behemoth operating system of a PHP CMS, I'd be really happy. But since it's open source, I guess there's not that much to moan about.
I'm a Joomla guy btw. I've seen the fucked up appmodel reverse enginered of a T3-DB of Typo3 4.0 and thus will not look at T3 again until the entire redo is finished in Version 5.0. :-)
Bottom line: MS and other proprietary vendors are a minority in this field in Germany and still businesses are thriving around the prime software solution which is FOSS. I don't see why this shouldn't happen other places aswell. It's not like German businesses are particularly known for their recklessnes or their lack of sense of quality.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
How? Easy: it met their three requirements for a third-party product
That's all it took, plus the hidden criteria, of course: it worked better than SCO.
--dave
davecb@spamcop.net
I work for a small to medium sized company (4,000+). Our intranet group went with Drupal. It's been remarkably configurable. Some folks were pushing for SharePoint. To get there, we had a group (in-house) review current system types (static, CMS, Portal) and features of each group. Then made a decision as to what level we wanted to shoot for. SharePoint didn't sufficiently make the feature list, and Drupal (and others) did.
>What's your credibility to suggest anything at all when you have to come
>to (of all places) Slashdot for advice?
Presumably better than if he was the type to pretend he knows everything.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean this as an attack - just a statement of reality. Is the OP trusted by the organization he's representing? I suspect not. Look at it from the perspective of a mid-level suit to see what I was trying to communicate. I respect OP for learning, and eventually he/she/it will understand this lots better. But don't confuse those who pretend to know with those who actually do!
Is this a rational fear?
Does it matter? It's there, and it's both real, and reinforced by widespread anecdote. Who hasn't heard of a migration disaster or three? Having a demonstrably strong organization willing to commit to supporting your OSS solution goes a long, long way: how else do you think IBM manages to sell OSS-based solutions?
isn't this essentially the classic definition of FUD?
Yes. And FUD often works because it's a real effect that manifests on real people.
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
Nobody got fired when our IT department spends a week of 24 hour days chasing virii out of the Windows Server racks. Meanwhile, all of us *NIX people just sit back, watching the thing probing ports or firing off malformed URLs in our systems' logs. To no effect. Its not the TCO to the organization, or the lack of administrative expertise. We've got multiple systems, experience with both and there's never been a clear advantage for Microsoft products.
I think its because most people are lazy. Microsoft can spend billions on marketing, chasing CIOs around, trying to make sales. Our previous aquisitions (of mainframes, workstations, etc.) was driven by internal requirements. But now all the execs have to do is sit back and get invited to a sales pitch. And since Mircosoft is doing all the legwork telling companies what they need, some execs get upset when their own people do internal studies on the companies time.
Have gnu, will travel.
Don't get me started on Anderson Consulting, they're currently in the process of implementing a multi-million dollar installation (7-8 million dollar range) in the company where I work. You've got to figure that this project has gone on for almost 1.5 years now...
The sheer idiocy that I see from them amazes me even now. Their consultants openly admit that they have no real world IT experience and are only "business process" consultants.
Of course, this is also the company with an IT department that has locked down the desktops so that the background can't be changed, but you have full access to regedit.
Enterprise is not a buzzword. People in management like a single sign-on system and a well-knit integrated system that works, not a bunch of assorted code each in a silo that needs a separate login. At my place we have these open source apps:
1. Linux servers - 7 of them, mostly file servers
2. JBoss servers - 1, we are trying to replace a Websphere-based Insurance app with JBoss
3. One Or Zero Helpdesk software, which has been customised for multiple support functions such as ICT, HR, Accounts, Payroll, Purchase, Inventory etc.
4. DotProject - To manage 'scheduled' medium and long term tasks (not breakdowns or ticket-based tasks)
5. Zimbra - Experimenting with Zimlets, we still use Exchange; Zimbra is servicing couple domains with about 220 users
6. Open NMS / Nagios for Network Monitoring and alerts - works in sync with One Or Zero
7. B2Evolution Blog software - seems to be the best fit for our needs, better than WordPress according to our programmers.
8. PACS-One - open source PACS system for a hospital in the same group
9. Exodus chat tool.
10. We also use Joomla, vTiger CRM, Subversion and Tortoise SVN and other bits and pieces of FOSS code as starting points for some projects.
All of the tools from 3 to 9 have been customised to use a single sign on system and centralised user management. Reply below this post with your email id if you like more details to be emailed to you.
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
"'open source' is new," if you consider things that have been around since the 80's new and if you consider that the GNU stuff and linux stuff is basically cloning Unix, and that for all intents and purposes BSD IS Unix, which has been around since the 70's, then Microsoft is the new kid on the block. In fact, Microsoft used to SELL unix systems.