Slashdot Mirror
Shouldn't Every Developer Understand English?
Pickens writes "Jeff Atwood has an interesting post that begins by noting that with the Internet, whatever country you live in or language you speak, a growing percentage of the accumulated knowledge of the world can and should be available in your native language; but that the rules are different for programmers. 'So much so that I'm going to ask the unthinkable: shouldn't every software developer understand English?' Atwood argues that 'It's nothing more than great hackers collectively realizing that sticking to English for technical discussion makes it easier to get stuff done. It's a meritocracy of code, not language, and nobody (or at least nobody who is sane, anyway) localizes programming languages.' Eric Raymond in his essay 'How to be a Hacker' says that functional English is required for true hackers and notes that 'Linus Torvalds, a Finn, comments his code in English (it apparently never occurred to him to do otherwise). His fluency in English has been an important factor in his ability to recruit a worldwide community of developers for Linux. It's an example worth following.' Although it may sound like The Ugly American and be taken as a sort of cultural imperialism, 'advocating the adoption of English as the de-facto standard language of software development is simple pragmatism, the most virtuous of all hacker traits,' writes Atwood. 'If that makes me an ugly American programmer, so be it.'"
I agree. Not much different than learning French a century or three ago if you wanted to go into nternational diplomacy and handle high government legal affairs.
English has become the de-facto language for air travel and academic research as well. When efficient, accurate communication is required, there needs to be a common language that is used. The choice of the language isn't so important, as long as the community comes to a consensus (whether explicitly or implicitly).
That's pretty stupid (unless you're joking). It's not like you have to know English just to understand the few words in programming languages. Of course there are other reasons for knowing English. There are a lot more programming books in English and if you are googleing you'd want to search in English and be able to read the information.
Cool, that sounds interesting. Upon what will you base your argument? Or have you confused "argue" and "assert?" An unfounded, unbased assertion is not an argument. HTH!
everything in moderation
I think it's a more general statement: "All programmers should understand and be reasonably fluent in one common language.". It just makes collaboration easier if there's one language everybody can use when they need to talk to each other. It just so happens that English happens to be the one language with the largest "market share", because of the way computer programming started off. Personally I don't think English should get primacy just because it's English, but at the moment it probably involves the fewest people having to learn a language they don't already know. Plus, as noted, it's such a mongrel. As the joke goes, it doesn't so much borrow from other langauges as chase them down a dark alley, whack them up the back of the head and riffle their pockets for vocabulary. English is probably the best language out there when it comes to having short, direct ways of saying technical things. To me, those things give English the best claim to the position.
I read an anecdote somewhere that went something like this:
-rozzin.
jeff atwood is proposing a nonsolution to a nonproblem
for historical reasons, english has become the de facto language of business worldwide, and programming as a global profession simply follows this proclivity, no questions asked, no need to underline the point
a non-english speaking programmer knows he or she is limiting their options career-wise simply by ignoring the largest resource available to them: other programmers, who are undoubtedly speaking english, even if they themselves are not native english speakers. and so there is no need to insist programmers speak english, as it is self inclusivity (of those who choose to speak english freely) that is the prime motivator here, not esternally applied exclusivity (insisting someone speak english... that already knows its important)
if a programmer self-excludes by choosing not to speak english, who cares? its there choice. let them program in english language isolation. how does that effect you? its not like you are going to an english language symposium and run into someone who insists you speak hindi to them, or comment on an english language programming tip site, and run into a comment in mandarin, or sit next to a programmer in the office, who only speaks spanish. the hindi speaker would have never gone to the symposium in the first place: its in english, announced up front. the mandarin speaker would not comment in the english language programming site: all the other content is a sea of english, what's the point? and the spanish-only speaker would never have been hired in the most probably english-speaking place of business in the first place, you would never run into such a person
in other words, jeff is pointing out a nonexistent problem, that even if it existed, has a solution proposed which is pointless
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
You're obviously not a programmer. If you are, you work with some obscure programming language that has non-English keywords/reserved words. I'd love to hear about it as a curiosity. Please do tell!
everything in moderation
Pilots and ATC do the same thing. Its because the guarantee of pilots being able to communicate with each other and with ground control is much more important than the alternative, for obvious reasons. Whether this argument applies to all coders might be subject to some debate, but I imagine for mission critical software like for medical devices or say, ATC, its a no brainer.
Jherico
What can the average user can do to ensure his security? "Nothing, you're screwed"
TFA has many comments on its own page that agree with you, saying that this is a non issue. Of course, all of those people can already speak English, or else they wouldn't have been able to read the article. The millions of programmers who only speak Russian, Chinese, Japanese, German, etc. are unlikely to chime in here to argue against you. You probably didn't have a conversation just last week with a developer who only speaks Korean.
I'm only sort of disagreeing. If I were a non-English speaking programmer with the time and resources to learn English, I probably would. I'm just saying that its hard to have a useful discussion about this, since the people most likely to have opposing views can't understand what we're saying.
/...
Or learning German a century ago if you wanted to be a scientist / mathematician. English is the lingua franca, so if you want a job in the technical/scientific field, you almost need to understand it. Maybe in another century, everyone will understand written Chinese.
I think that his argument was based on his preceding statements. He said that bilingualism increases cognitive and memory skills (it does), and from that he noted that a bilingual programmer will probably be a bit better off than somebody with only 1 language under their belt. Just because you state your claim after the evidence doesn't make it any less of an argument.
Speaking as a native English speaker living in England, it's pretty easy to find young people who can't even hold a simple conversation in English.
Let's face it, even if an education system offers it doesn't mean everyone will take it up/do well at it. I would imagine that those who go on to be capable programmers will have done better in their education though.
Yes, but the French are well know for their obstinate defense of their language and culture; frequently refusing to adopt foreign words, technologies, and culture until a french equivalent is re-created from scratch. This has occasionally resulted in some unfortunate side effects, such as the delayed distribution of HIV testing kits due to the originals not being French enough. English on the other hand is much more promiscuous, readily borrowing words, concepts, and ideas from foreign cultures and incorporating them into our own. So to say that France is different is sort of like cherry picking the most xenophobic element and accepting it as the norm.
Except that you don't need to know English syntax to use English keywords/reserved words, heck, you don't even need to know what the words actually mean, just what they do in a particular programming language.
I'm a mexican programmer, living in México, and I agree that every developer should at least read English, not because the actual programming language, but because of the vast information written in English and also the fact that most translated books are already outdated by the time they got published.
(Cue to jokes saying that you don't need to know english syntax to post in slashdot in 3..2..1..)
DON'T PANIC.
Whenever people say "The French are rude", when the inevitably really mean is "People in Paris are rude". Once you get out to the countryside, folks seem quite nice.
Try German. Just about anything that requires a sentence in English can be said with one 14-syllable German word. :D
Sounds a bit like Haskell =)
This is they key (french guy speaking).
Trying to show people that you cared enough to learn "Bonjour", a few words (whatever the quality) and then switching when you've shown enough interest to the local place goes a long tway to show people you're not snubbing THEM.
And I try to learn a few words as well when I go to a foreign country before switching to english.