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Cellular Repo Man

Posted by kdawson on from the new-low-for-crippleware dept.

LateNiteTV sends in news of a "kill pill" from LM Ericsson AB that a wireless carrier could use to remotely disable a subsidized netbook if the customer doesn't pay the monthly bill or cancels their credit card. "...the Swedish company that makes many of the modems that go into laptops announced Tuesday that its new modem will deal with [the nonpayment] issue by including a feature that's virtually a wireless repo man. If the carrier has the stomach to do so, it can send a signal that completely disables the computer, making it impossible to turn on. ... Laptop makers that use Ericsson modules include LG Electronics Inc., Dell Inc., Toshiba Corp., and Lenovo." The feature could also be used to lock thieves out of the data on a stolen laptop.

43 of 253 comments (clear)

  1. Used car salesmen use the same thing by DrMrLordX · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We have had several used car lots around here that will basically do the same thing: if you don't make your weekly or monthly payments, they send a signal to a device attached to the starter and the car won't start.

    At least with the car, eventually you pay it off so that little cloud is no longer hanging over your head unless some idiot at the lot mistakes you for being in non-payment and kills your starter. With one of these notebooks, you'll always have that threat looming that your notebook will shut down if someone steals your only CC and you have to cancel it or what not at the wrong time in the billing cycle.

    One would hope nobody involved would be so draconian but you never know.

    1. Re:Used car salesmen use the same thing by Hognoxious · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In my state, preventing use of legally owned property (like an automobile) is a felony

      I don't know which satet that is, but I'm guessing that until a large proportion (if not all) of it has been paid off it is "legally owned" indeed - by the finance company.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    2. Re:Used car salesmen use the same thing by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 5, Funny

      that's just good business sense. Even the mafia won't off-you if you're 5 minutes late on your payments

      As someone who just became five minutes late on my 'protection' money, I can attest to th

      --
      My blog
    3. Re:Used car salesmen use the same thing by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 4, Informative
      Apparently you are unaware of the concept of a loan. When you buy a car, do you have the title and registration? When you buy a house, and have a mortgage, you have the deed, not the bank.

      Sure the bank or lender makes you sign a contract guaranteeing them the right to repossess the object if you fail to honor the payment agreement, but pretty key in that sentence is the word REpossess. They pass possession to you. Now it may also be that the property is the security on the loan, but again, security is a pretty specific concept in law. If the lender owns your property, they can sell it or dispose of it at any time, apropos of anything else. They don't. They retain the contractual right to reposess, claim or lien the security until you satisfy your debt. That is not the same thing.

    4. Re:Used car salesmen use the same thing by c6gunner · · Score: 4, Funny

      As someone who just became five minutes late on my 'protection' money, I can attest to th

      Well, at least the goons were nice enough to hit the "preview" and "submit" button for you, in addition to all the other bits that they were hitting ...

  2. Stolen Laptop, yes. Data, No. by wed128 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A theif could easily take out the hard drive and read it using another device, no? you are locking a theif out of a laptop, not the data within.

    1. Re:Stolen Laptop, yes. Data, No. by Darkness404 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ...But you assume that most thieves actually know something about computers. A lot couldn't care less about the data, they just want to sell the nice hardware. Sure, some actually know a thing about computers, but your typical thief doesn't really care about the HD, they just want to sell it to a pawn shop or a streetcorner for some quick cash.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    2. Re:Stolen Laptop, yes. Data, No. by LoRdTAW · · Score: 3, Informative

      Most thefts aren't data thefts or other espionage related thefts. I would wager most notebook (and other electronic gadget) thefts are for profit thefts. A thief will swipe you laptop and try to hock it at a pawn shop or other crooked store that fronts stolen goods. Too many people start thinking "James Bond" without thinking in a more real world sense. Sure there are espionage related thefts but most electronic gadgetry thefts are by desperate individuals looking for fast cash. And those thieves are often junkies looking for a fix and will steal anything of value to get it.

      Besides the article is talking about disabling notebooks that are subsidized by wireless broadband plans in which the customer stops paying for. Not stolen notebooks.

    3. Re:Stolen Laptop, yes. Data, No. by Lehk228 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      wouldn't it be easier to encrypt the drive and have the wireless kill system hold the key?

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    4. Re:Stolen Laptop, yes. Data, No. by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Insightful

      True, but then the people they fence them to might be a bit more clued up and/or have connections.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  3. Data Thief? ... More likely after the laptop part. by Walpurgiss · · Score: 2, Informative

    If a thief were really after your data, it'd be pretty trivial to remove the hard drive from the laptop, and just have to worry about encryption.

    This feature won't help protect your data really, just make laptop itself a paperweight.

  4. Here's a better idea by Locke2005 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Don't sell hardware by tying it to a subscription! You want to provide financing, fine. But stop trying to convince people that a $500 computer should be free, but it makes sense to spend $100/month for a communications link.

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    1. Re:Here's a better idea by internewt · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Just curious... why? It seems to be what the market demands.

      Don't get me wrong - I would jump at the chance to get a non-subsidized phone/data plan, but I am more angry at the ignorant masses than at the companies fulfilling their desires.

      In markets like mobile telecoms there are only a few big players, so the market gets offered what the players want to offer, not necessarily what the customers want. Obviously collusion is illegal, but "singing from the same hymn sheet" isn't.

      The utter cluelessness of most customers when it comes to computers and tech in general doesn't help much either. I guess this could be viewed as "what the market demands" though.

      I'm sure it's a bit of both, plus some more.

      --
      Car analogies break down.
    2. Re:Here's a better idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Pay as you go plans are the price leaders in Germany. You get the cheapest per minute prices with plans that have no minimum contract term. Upfront costs are typically less than $10 for the SIM card and often count towards your balance. You can still get subsidized phones with pre- and post-payment plans, but the minutes are considerably more expensive and the phone is almost always locked to the SIM card.

      It shouldn't come as a surprise: Customers will more easily switch to a cheaper competitor if they're not tied to a two year contract, so pay as you go plans must be much more price oriented to keep people from leaving. (It also helps competition that you can keep your phone number when you switch to a competitor.)

    3. Re:Here's a better idea by Brickwall · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I'd agree except that - unless my memory is playing tricks on me - the subsidized phones started way back when there were dozens of carriers serving various regions of the US. It took off not because of carrier greed, but because consumers were more willing to sign up with little initial outlay.

      It was a bit of both, actually. The rural carriers especially were interested in grabbing fat roaming fees ($5-6 a minute was not uncommon!), which is why the lawyers had a field day doing cookie cutter cellular applications for people hoping to win the lottery, build a few towers, and then sell out to a large company later. The large carriers, like the Baby Bells and McCaw were interested in getting as many subscribers as possible, since the lock-in factor at the time (no number portability especially) was pretty high. The larger carriers started selling phones through agents, to whom they paid a bounty for each new subscriber. If memory serves, it was on the order of $500-600. Agents, in turn, would turn a portion of that bounty to the new sub, via a discount on the phone price.

      I remember selling Motorola flip phones for $5,000 Cdn for a while, but the price quickly plummeted because of these bounties. At the time, our network was completely saturated in Toronto; it wasn't unusual to have to make four or five attempts to get dial tone. One night, after many drinks, an agent decried our company's strategy of not increasing the bounties. "Cash flow! Cash flow!" he garbled "You can't get a f**ing dial tone anyway! Get as many subs as you can so you can soak up the monthly fees!" Eventually network build-out caught up with demand, but the agent proved prescient; we were losing money, and were eventually taken over by another firm.

      --
      What was once true, is no longer so
  5. Rogue Wireless Carrier SysAdmin by GPLDAN · · Score: 4, Funny

    How much fun will it be when the wireless carrier fires Crazy Stu, the wacky UNIX sysadmin with the penchant for conspiracy theories and bad dental health.

    When HR comes around to fire Stu, he leaves his timebomb in place. The one that fires out the kill message to hundreds - nay - thousands of customers - and disables their leased laptops all at once.

    What a day that will be.

    1. Re:Rogue Wireless Carrier SysAdmin by causality · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How much fun will it be when the wireless carrier fires Crazy Stu, the wacky UNIX sysadmin with the penchant for conspiracy theories and bad dental health. When HR comes around to fire Stu, he leaves his timebomb in place. The one that fires out the kill message to hundreds - nay - thousands of customers - and disables their leased laptops all at once. What a day that will be.

      I hope it does not come to that, but should that happen anyway, in a way I would be grateful. It is unfortunate that things like that often have to happen before people are willing to question whether what they were doing was a good idea. My opinion is that anything which is needlessly centralized and open to this sort of vulnerability is a bad idea, especially when there are already established ways to deal with the problem this intends to solve. I consider the likelihood of such an exploit occurring to be irrelevant; there would be no such possibility at all if this were the correct solution.

      We are talking about financers and lenders, or those who do something similar by using long-term contracts to subsidize what would otherwise be an up-front cost. It's a form of credit because it takes time to become profitable and it depends on the other party not defaulting. If such people want to extend credit to those who are bad risks, that is the original problem and an improved "repo man" does nothing to solve it. It only addresses the symptoms of the original problem.

      For people who default on a loan or a contract, this pseudo-solution is essentially an alternative to taking them to court. It means that the lender can just remotely disable the equipment that was not paid for without having to use any sort of due process. It is thus an extra-legal power that did not previously exist, and is rightfully called a power grab. The entire point of the court system is that both sides can make their case. If the money required to bring a lawsuit against a large corporation already makes this difficult for the average person to pursue, taking the courts entirely out of the equation makes it impossible. This is not a good precedent. If this catches on, it will become increasingly difficult to buy a cell phone or perhaps a laptop without agreeing to allow it.

      It's amazing to me that we will do almost anything, come up with nearly any clever solution, go to any effort, to avoid directly addressing the actual cause of our problems. It's as though we feel threatened by the prospect, or inadequate at having failed to realize its simplicity. This is why we live in a superficial society. This is also why there are so many bad precedents which seem inevitable although they did not need to be that way at all.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    2. Re:Rogue Wireless Carrier SysAdmin by Wrath0fb0b · · Score: 2, Funny

      When HR comes around to fire Stu, he leaves his timebomb in place. The one that fires out the kill message to hundreds - nay - thousands of customers - and disables their leased laptops all at once.

      Later that day, the company sues Stu for malicious destruction of property, lost business revenue, failure to fulfill a duty of care (remember, employees are actually expect to work for their employer, not against them). A few hours later, an injunction will issue requiring Stu to return the computer network to the state before he left pending further hearings. Stu will either comply or face escalating sanctions and then jail time until he complies with the court order (which the company is entitled to as a matter of black letter law).

      The company will apologize profusely, give everyone a free week of service (maybe a month, depending on how the PR department sees this) and charge it off as a one-time freak expense. Finally, it will be posted on /. as a dupe of http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/07/18/2349242.

    3. Re:Rogue Wireless Carrier SysAdmin by TheSpoom · · Score: 2, Funny

      Unfortunately, by the time Stu has run his timebomb, Stu has also had fractions of a cent transferred to a bank account in the Caymans and is now living somewhere in the Bahamas under the pseudonym Leonard Stumonias, Esquire.

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
  6. semtex by Reality+Master+201 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Presumably, these new netbooks also have a strangely oily layer of orange material inside attached to the remote kill switch.

    So whatever you do, don't cut the red wire.

  7. He won't bother to write or phone you... by JimXugle · · Score: 2, Funny

    He'll just rip the still beating heart from your chest!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMP2dvGFUlk&fmt=18

    --
    -jX

    Don't you just love politics? It's like a comedy of errors.
  8. Re:bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123794137545832713.html

    It's real.

  9. I predict by taustin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    that within 5 minutes of the sale of the first such laptop, there will be 1,080,456 web sites with detailed, step by step instructions (with screen shots) on how to disable the feature, and at least ten times as many with instructions on how to physically remove the wireless moden.

    And ten seconds after that, every single one of them will be slashdotted.

    1. Re:I predict by cstdenis · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And another 5 minutes later there will be instructions on how to send the kill signal to any laptop. Have fun bricking the laptops of anyone you don't like.

      --
      1984 was not supposed to be an instruction manual.
    2. Re:I predict by fishbowl · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "Have fun bricking the laptops of anyone you don't like."

      It's the only thing I thought about when I read the summary. The target isn't "bricking the laptops", it's permanently destroying that company's reputation. Their competitors are as motivated to crack this as anybody else.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
  10. I stand corrected by Reality+Master+201 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Never underestimate the depths of motherfuckertude people will sink to in order to get that dollar.

    1. Re:I stand corrected by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Devil's advocate here:

      Usually I see cars outfitted with these devices (either remotely disabled, or requiring the car's driver to enter a PIN every week to month until payments are done) sold by used car dealers who are dealing with people with frighteningly bad credit histories.

      I do not like the devices either, but if it means someone is able to purchase a vehicle to drive to work and back (who otherwise would be turned away due to poor credit) to keep a job, that is one less indigent off the tax rolls.

    2. Re:I stand corrected by couchslug · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "Usually I see cars outfitted with these devices (either remotely disabled, or requiring the car's driver to enter a PIN every week to month until payments are done) sold by used car dealers who are dealing with people with frighteningly bad credit histories."

      The lot I help out at buys cheap cars at auctions, some of which had been repo'ed with the help of these little gizmos.

      Dealers who deal with people with no credit often have a down payment that covers what they have in the car, so if the customer smashes it they still win. The guy I help out doesn't even check history or require full coverage insurance! He makes a very nice profit, sells vehicles at reasonable prices, and while he repos some he doesn't get excited about it because it isn't required for him to do well. The downturn may have hurt NEW car sales, but he does fine.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    3. Re:I stand corrected by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      what's wrong with people selling a car wanting to get paid? it's not like the people getting one of those units have a good repayment history. these are people who would otherwise not get a loan at all.

      Because cars want to be free, like music, movies and software. Car dealers are the worst sort of scum, they have all those cars and they want you to PAY for them!!! Outrageous!!!!

  11. how precsiely will it work? by ILuvRamen · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm not sure I'm clear on how they want this to work. Is it purely software or will the thing physically interrupt the power supply or will it do something to the BIOS? There's weaknesses and vulnerabilities to all three. Depending on how they do it, you could disable any software solution they use or just boot to Knoppix off a DVD and keep surfing the web and doing whatever :-) And if it's a hardware interrupt, crack it open and get out the soldering iron or hack saw. Or just take out the stupid part that's doing it!

    --
    Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
  12. Re:Great malware target by Nitage · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That's definitely something criminals could exploit - knock out 1 in 1000 laptops, then "pay us $X thousand dollars, or all the laptops you gave away brick". A physical DOS attack. Think how much that could cost a company in terms of reputation and lost buisness, not to mention the inevitable lawsuits. For that reason alone I think this is an amazingly stupid idea.

  13. A Slam-Dunk Prediction by sehlat · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The RIAA/MPAA will be requiring such a capability as part of any "three-strikes" legislation. That will include felony charges for tampering with the hardware that makes the kill switch possible.

  14. 911? by jgtg32a · · Score: 4, Informative

    I was under the impression that all cell phones are required to be able to make 911 calls

    1. Re:911? by tagno25 · · Score: 2, Informative

      These are NOT cell phones, they are netbooks with cellular data connections.

  15. Compare to Xbox 360 hard drives by tepples · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That's a lot of R&D to put into proprietary interfaces when whole-disk encryption with off-the-shelf components is a lot easier to deploy.

    Yet Microsoft put the R&D into the Xbox 360 game console's proprietary hard drive interface.

  16. Re:Great. ANOTHER list... by tepples · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And what happens after the required "lease" runs out?

    New contracts eliminate the purchase portion of the lease-purchase agreement, stating that the hardware is not the customer's when the contract runs out. Instead, the customer returns the hardware to the cell phone company for a refund on his deposit.

  17. Re:Great. ANOTHER list... by tepples · · Score: 2, Interesting

    when I go to another company for service, I am informed that the phone I purchased from my previous provider is UNUSABLE on other networks...YEARS after I purchased it.

    In the United States, this might be true because Verizon and Sprint use a Qualcomm CDMA stack, while AT&T and T-Mobile use GSM. Besides, contracts in the United States seldom guarantee the customer's right to remove the subsidy lock from the phone once the contract is over.

  18. Re:You can cancel? by Aardpig · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've had this exact same problem with Chase. I closed an account with them; a few months later, Virgin Mobile decided to charge me for some pay-as-you-go airtime, despite the fact that I had deleted my CCard info from my Virgin account a while before. Chase honored this transaction and sent me a bill. I had to yell very loudly at both of them.

    --
    Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
  19. Re:Can't pay for your car? Ride a bicycle! by lena_10326 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Try managing with a bicycle with 2 kids, $300 trips to Costco, and doctor's appointments. You wouldn't last 1 day on a bike in that scenario... or even the bus slash taxi for that matter.

    --
    Camping on quad since 1996.
  20. Hope it's not used by a professional... by gillbates · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Not that I'd buy one of these, but suppose, for example, that I do. And suppose, furthermore, that because of some screwup with my bank, or human error (oops, transposed two CC digits!), my bill doesn't get paid.

    I'm charging clients $100 an *hour*. If you disable my laptop for even a single 8 hour day, you owe *me* money.

    Did they think of that? Did it occur to them that if this functionality *accidentally* gets tripped, the lawsuit could easily erase not just the profit on the modem and the service, but the laptop as well?

    Or, to put it another way: why would someone sell a laptop (on contract) to someone who can't afford a cellphone?

    --
    The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
  21. Re:Can't pay for your car? Ride a bicycle! by Ihlosi · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Here in Texas a 20 mile bike ride is not the way to start out the work day, unless you are in the shower business.

    All you need is a place to shower at work and a locker room. If you're planning on a 20 mile bike ride to work, then those five minutes for taking a shower and changing into your work clothes shouldn't be a problem.

  22. Re:Can't pay for your car? Ride a bicycle! by knarf · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Funny that. I live in rural Sweden, hilly country studded with trees and frosty in wintertime. I do my shopping in a village about 15 km to the south of here. I have a daughter I bring to 'dagis' (playschool) every day. On a bike. The shopping goes in the trailer, the daughter in the seat on the back. To blindly state that 'you would not last a day on a bike in that scenario' just shows that you are so blindsided by having access to a car that for you that car is the ONLY means of transport. No matter that elsewhere on this planet billions of people get by without having access to cars.

    Try it for a change. I realise that the US is not the best country for cyclists but then again neither is Sweden. Still, it is possible, and by using that bike instead of a car you not only save a lot of money and birds and bees and trees and lives but you also get that workout which you now have to pay the fitness center or sports school for. Not to mention the good example you'll give your two kids. Raise them on cars and they'll become just like you - car-dependent. Raise them on bikes and they'll become aware themselves.

    --
    --frank[at]unternet.org
  23. Important? by Zalminen · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...and usually those 'important' things aren't really that important when you stop to think about it.

    Hell, some people drive a car to the nearest gym, then spend the next hour on the exercise bike...