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No More D&D PDFs, Wizards of the Coast Sues 8 File Sharers

Posted by Soulskill on from the perfectly-rational-reactions dept.

An anonymous reader writes "On April 6th, Wizards of the Coast took all of their PDF products offline, including those sold at third-party websites like RPGNow.com. From the RPGNow front page: 'Wizards of the Coast has instructed us to suspend all sales and downloads of Wizards of the Coast titles. Unfortunately, this includes offering download access to previously purchased Wizards of the Coast titles.' Wizards of the Coast also posted a press release to their website that states they are suing eight file sharers for 'copyright infringement,' and WotC_Trevor posted a short explanation about the cessation of PDF sales to the EN World Forums."

98 of 501 comments (clear)

  1. [Don't] Profit! by AKAImBatman · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Unfortunately, due to recent findings of illegal copying and online distribution (piracy) of our products, Wizards of the Coast has decided to cease the sales of online PDFs.

    Step 1: Point gun at foot and pull trigger.

    Wizards of the Coast has instructed us to suspend all sales and downloads of Wizards of the Coast titles. Unfortunately, this includes offering download access to previously purchased Wizards of the Coast titles.'

    Step 2: Open yourself up to lawsuits for breach of contract.

    (GMSkarka) Typical short-sighted reaction from WOTC, which makes zero sense at all, when you consider the fact that the most widely-spread pirated copies of the 4e products contain printers marks -- which means that their piracy problem pre-dated any purchases.

    Speaking as somebody whose entire income is largely dependent on my PDF sales, this really pisses me off.

    Step 3: Ignore all evidence and make assumptions in an effort to piss off both the users and the publishers.

    Step 4: Lose all profits!

    --
    Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
    1. Re:[Don't] Profit! by erroneus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think as people in this economy are becoming increasingly desperate, people are grasping at straws while they fail. Could this be considered a sign that there is failure approaching when a company starts resorting to litigation for income?

    2. Re:[Don't] Profit! by Dotren · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Mod parent up... that had me cracking up

      Seriously though, is there a business conference that happens annually now where presenters try to sell the audience on the benefits of alienating your customers by providing sub-par purchasing and product use options? Do they start the whole thing off with a keynote on how to use copyright to extort and sue your customers?

      I think, in recent years, its become readily apparent that a company's true customers are it's stock holders and board members. The consumers are just raw material to be milked for money in ANY way possible.

      Sorry if that went slightly off-topic, it's just frustrating to see so many product/media providers jump on this bandwagon. Whats next? Some sort of physical DRM for printed copies?

    3. Re:[Don't] Profit! by Richard+Steiner · · Score: 2

      Wow. I've been toying with the idea of getting PDF versions of the 1st Edition AD&D books to suppliment my paper copies, but I guess that's not happening...

      --
      Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
      The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
    4. Re:[Don't] Profit! by mseeger · · Score: 5, Funny

      Typical case of "Suicide due to Fear of Death"

    5. Re:[Don't] Profit! by DragonWriter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Step 1: Point gun at foot and pull trigger.

      WotC is such a small part of Hasbro that there is very little that they could do with through WotC that would be shooting themselves in the foot (and shooting WotC in the foot is meaningless, WotC isn't an independent entity.) I suspect, also, that WotC, or at least D&D, has been disappointing to Hasbro since the acquisition, and has never been profitable enough, and I wouldn't be surprised if they are at the point where desperate moves that are perceived as having some (though low) probability of improving the profitability in that area are warranted prior to simply cutting their losses and moving the resources elsewhere or simply not expending them at all anymore in a cost-cutting move. IOW, this may well be a natural part of Hasbro proving to themselves that D&D (except, perhaps, in the online-game form) simply cannot be salvaged as something profitable enough for them.

    6. Re:[Don't] Profit! by MeanMF · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Oh you can still get them..You're just no longer allowed to pay for them.

    7. Re:[Don't] Profit! by ajs · · Score: 5, Interesting

      This is their second salvo, of course. The first was when they decided to yank the rights to Dragon and Dungeon magazines from Paizo, the company that salvaged those two titles from their late-1990s slump and made them popular and useful again. Wizards is no longer the cool company that Richard Garfield and crew took from obscurity to gaming geek super-stardom. Since the Hasbro buyout, they've moved further and further into a campaign of systematically alienating and angering every one of their customers, partners, authors and fans.

      It's sad, really. There were (and probably still are) some good people there. Oh well, Steve Jackson will enjoy the business, anyway. They still have plenty of PDFs for sale, and even a few for free!

    8. Re:[Don't] Profit! by xymog · · Score: 2, Interesting
      If Hasbro is like every other bean-counter-based business, it demands 10-15% growth year over year from its subsidiaries, otherwise no bonuses for executives. Perpetual linear growth is not possible in a finite market, but that doesn't stop the parent company from squeezing the sub (in a decidedly non-sexual fun way).

      Maybe we should send a PDF copy of the Cluetrain Manifesto to the execs at WotC and Hasbro....

    9. Re:[Don't] Profit! by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yup.
      And it's the only way you can get Gods, Demigods, and Heroes where TSR violated a lot of OTHER people's copyrighted material.

      I started with the three book set, greyhawk, and blackmoor after hearing about the "DND" room at a convention.

      ADND (i.e. 1st edition) killed my campaign when the DMG came out. Can't remember why. The PHB and MM were both compatible.

      2nd edition wasn't my cup of tea and i stumbled on the Cyclopedia version and fell in love.

      Lots of home rules later, my 26 year old rules set and Rev 4.0 are actually a lot closer together. I guess we both grew in the same direction. My rules are formatted Cyclopedia style (and probably still have about 40- pages or 10%-15% of Cyclopedia material).

      If I had it to do over again, I think I would simplify things and reduce a lot of these feats (like cleave) to the basics: Unless it is a special squirrelly ability (like flying) then it points down to taking more hit points or doing more hit points.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    10. Re:[Don't] Profit! by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's basically what makes me shake my head in disbelief.

      First: Those books are no longer in print and WotC is not losing a dime if they get copied. Unless, and I'd consider this highly unlikely if anything, they want to roll the printing press for those items again.

      Second: It's anything but hard to get a hand on that copy. Instead of paying WotC for it, you have to hunt for it on torrents. Yeah, you could get sued. How well that works as a deterrent is evident. Not to mention that people will have zero problem with their conscience, since they could not even buy it, even if they wanted.

      Finally, and most importantly: P&P RPG enthusiasts are, if anything, packrats. They want the printed copy if there is one available, if the book is good. I've seen books that are readily available in PDF form (from other publishers) go for three and four digit sums on ebay because they can't be bought anymore. I'm in a similar boat, I want my book in my hand (ever tried bringing a laptop to a fantasy RPG session? Talk about mood killer). I won't pay 300 bucks for it, but I'd certainly go to my shop and get it if I could! So any PDF being "ripped" is not a lost sale by any measure. It's about the best advertising you can get. Players don't read the book and then toss it away like a novel. RPG books are used more like encyclopedias, perused and consulted regularely to look up details. And gamers want that in book form. Not laptop, not a copy they tossed through their printer, they want a book!

      So where the heck is the lost sale? Where is the damage?

      Or does WotC fear that people could find out their latest edition sucks even more than the previous ones and people refuse to buy it entirely, and stick with AD&D 2nd forever?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    11. Re:[Don't] Profit! by geekoid · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Steve Jackson? gah. Screw GURPS, too many damn specific rules, combat takes to long, and running on a bell curve with their point system make no sense mathematically.

      I gave up on that pile of needless complications 4 years ago.
      Try savage worlds and have some fun. Play characters that can actually be cool right out of the gate, and only get cooler. There rule book cost 10 bucks.

      What's that? 10 bucks too much to try a new game? well then, I suggest you take it for a Test Drive

      Do I sound a little fanatical? probably, but I ahve played it since it's release, and still enjoy it, and have played and ran in almost every Genre available.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    12. Re:[Don't] Profit! by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Interesting

      SJGames is an example of someone "getting" gamers.

      GURPS is about the most flexible and adaptable game system. It allows you to build your own game with just the basic rulebook. Yet there are quite a lot of books, and funny enough, they also get bought. You don't need them. It's not like in other systems where you can't play a ranger without the ranger book because the info you need to make one isn't in the main book. It's not even that those books give you many new rules.

      Most of the time, they give you background information.

      As an example, take the "high tech" book, dealing mostly with firearms through the ages, from medieval times to now. Instead of just noting down a list of weapons and what stats they have, you get background information how those weapons worked, when and how they were used, generally you get a book about guns. More as sidenotes, you also get their stats and some suggestions how to convert their behaviour into game terms. Instead of "it is this way, take the rules and shut up" you get "this is how it works, and that's how we think this is reflected by stats".

      Personally, I feel I get a lot more out of the book that way. I get to know why and how things work, and I get a feel what could work in a given setting and situation and what could not.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    13. Re:[Don't] Profit! by mweather · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If I wasn't going to buy it in the first place, it doesn't matter if I download it. No harm, no foul.

    14. Re:[Don't] Profit! by MightyMartian · · Score: 2, Informative

      Or you could just go with Fudge. The core edition is completely free, and available in PDF and plain text.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    15. Re:[Don't] Profit! by dcollins · · Score: 4, Interesting

      They want the printed copy if there is one available, if the book is good. I've seen books that are readily available in PDF form (from other publishers) go for three and four digit sums on ebay because they can't be bought anymore. I'm in a similar boat, I want my book in my hand (ever tried bringing a laptop to a fantasy RPG session? Talk about mood killer).

      Allow me to offer up some counterexamples. I was just at an annual gaming retreat with friends last weekend, where we played classic D&D and other games. (a) I ran an OD&D game, and to my great pleasure, one of the players had bought the OD&D PDFs and printed and bound his own little books from them. (b) I also ran an AD&D game, and instead of hauling the big hardcovers with me, I did indeed have them on a laptop, as I've done before, and it didn't bother anyone (kept below table height on a chair next to me).

      Here's the upshot: I was just today going to write my player and recommend he also buy the Supplement I PDF to add to his OD&D books. But now he can't do that. Bizarre.

      --
      We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
    16. Re:[Don't] Profit! by geekboy642 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This guy has it exactly right.
      One of my friends had a CD of most of WotC's books in PDF that we passed around. As far as I know, nobody actually used the pirated copies for anything but sneakily reading them in class on a laptop. We *all* trouped down to the store at least once a month to buy another book.
      Who wants to stare at a crappy PDF when you're rolling dice to kill the dragon? WotC is doing nothing but alienating their paying customers.

      --
      Just another "DOJ fascist authoritarian totalitarian bootlicker" -- Zeio
    17. Re:[Don't] Profit! by Beardo+the+Bearded · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I have every DnD 4e PDF book. I downloaded all of them without paying for them.

      I regularly run a DnD campaign, I'm a DCI member, I run RPGA events, etc. I do own the 4e PHB, but that's because I damaged one at a store and felt obligated to the store owner.

      Here's why I pirated all those books, and why I am going to pirate the rest of them:

      Because fuck you, Wizards of the Coast, fuck you. When you brought out 4e, it was supposed to be a self-contained series of books. There were three books - the DM guide, the Player's Handbook, and the Monster Manual. I pre-ordered them from my local store (significantly more than at Amazon, but I wanted to support my local store.) and was ready to try out the new system. I was ready to pitch all my dead tree 3.5 books to see what you'd learned from 3 and 3.5.

      Then you wanted $15/month to access your online content.

      Then you announced that there were more CORE books coming out. There's a release party every month now. Twelve books a year? Are you insane?

      Then you killed the SRD.

      You see me as a cash cow. Fuck you. I'm not paying you a thousand dollars to get all the books when the full set was supposed to be a hundred - or just fifty online.

      If you had released all this content as one package and said, "this is fourth edition", I would have bought the set.

      You're liars, you're fuckups, and I do not reward incompetence with my cash.

      --

      ---
      ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
    18. Re:[Don't] Profit! by kbielefe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No harm, no foul.

      Thousands of fans who enjoy their legally-obtained pdf copies would disagree with you on the "no harm" part.

      --
      This space intentionally left blank.
    19. Re:[Don't] Profit! by DragonWriter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You really don't understand business do you?

      Yes, I do.

      WotC is a division of Hasbro.

      Quite.

      This means that if they don't preform, they get cut.

      Yes, it means if any operation conducted by WotC don't perform as well as an application of equal resources by Hasbro in other areas would be expected to, that operation (in a kind of ideal profit maximization theory, which firms tend to attempt to approximate in practice) gets cut.

      If D&D (as a traditional RPG) is already performing near or below that bar, then taking an action which has a low expected direct cost that might, the probability is low,improve it to reach that bar (but is likely to fail) may, assuming everything that appears more likely to succeed which has equal or less cost has already been tried, make sense as a last ditch effort to save the line before shutting it down.

    20. Re:[Don't] Profit! by iYk6 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think, in recent years, its become readily apparent that a company's true customers are it's stock holders and board members. The consumers are just raw material to be milked for money in ANY way possible.

      Did you read the same summary I did? They stopped selling pdfs. The only alternatives now for a digital copy are to buy the books and scan every page yourself, or piracy. They aren't milking their consumers; they are throwing their money back at them.

    21. Re:[Don't] Profit! by LordKazan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your entire post is based on a truckload of faulty assumptions. I know people who bought legal D&D PDFs, they're spitting nails. Anyone who likes D&D should be spitting nails.

      Hasbro, through WoTC, is not just attacking the illegitimate PDFs but they nuked from orbit all the legitimate ones.

      You blabber about DRM - but as someone else pointed out it wasn't users who bought the PDFs that shared them on torrents, etc - it was PUBLISHERS EMPLOYEES: they all had publisher watermarks.

      DRM wouldn't have stopped that. DRM cannot stop piracy: it never has and it never will. DRM can only stop technologically inept users from making fair use. Anyone who knows any technologically inclined person (and how many D&D people don't know a technologically inclined person) can get around DRM like the DRM wasn't even there.

      4e is nothing but table top World of Crapcraft.

      --
      If you cannot keep politics out of your moderation remove yourself from the Mod Lottery.. NOW!
    22. Re:[Don't] Profit! by commodore64_love · · Score: 3, Funny

      >>>Step 4: Lose all profits!

      What's D&D? Was that some kind of Final Fantasy spinoff?

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    23. Re:[Don't] Profit! by ubrgeek · · Score: 2, Funny

      It worked for SCO... Oh ... hrmmm.

      --
      Bark less. Wag more.
    24. Re:[Don't] Profit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Fighting back doesn't mean fighting stupid. All they did was cut off a potential source of income from those fans who might have paid for pdfs. People who were getting illegal copies will still get illegal copies.

      There are better strategies for profit (although if this is about pride, rights and morals in their eyes, they can use their last penny to fight what they see as evil). By taking the product off the market to combat the relatively small number of file sharers, they throw the baby out with the bath water. They could have tried some PR and marketing campaign for the official PDF and maybe offer so sort of extra incentive to buy the product that could not be shared. It may be their legal right to stop their own sales, but it is my right to think they are reacting emotionally to unwarranted assumptions about their lost profits rather than making a solid business plan that would maximize their profit notwithstanding the fact that some percentage of the population will always be bastards.

      If you can't achieve power over everyone for perfect control of the world, you should try to make realistic strategies to achieve you true goal (treasure)instead of fighting every possible fight regardless of collateral damage and costs to you in the long run.

    25. Re:[Don't] Profit! by internerdj · · Score: 2, Funny

      "Some sort of physical DRM for printed copies?"
      This is Bruno. He comes free with your purchase. Don't make him mad. He is non-refundable.

    26. Re:[Don't] Profit! by Chyeld · · Score: 5, Informative

      Minor note: The Cyclopedia is actually not 2nd edition AD&D, it's a republishing of the alternative line they had going when AD&D came out.

      It was originally meant to be the 'intro to D&D' rules which would transition to AD&D but ended up being it's own separate line entirely. Prior to being released as the Cyclopedia, it was called the Box Sets as unlike AD&D, the Box sets were sold as paired Player and Dungeon Master guides based on level ranges.

      • Basic Set - Levels 1-3
      • Expert Set - Levels 4-14
      • Companion Set - Levels 15-25
      • Master Set - Levels 26-36 (max 'mortal' level)
      • Immortals - literally playing gods
    27. Re:[Don't] Profit! by digitig · · Score: 2, Informative

      First: Those books are no longer in print and WotC is not losing a dime if they get copied.

      Yes they are, at least as they see it (which is what's going to drive their business decisions). If players can't get hold of the 3.5 material it forces them to buy the shiny new version 4 material -- and everyone who wants to join them in games, so it pushes people who already have 3.5 to buy 4. Or go play some other RPG, of course, but I expect WotC discount that possibility.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    28. Re:[Don't] Profit! by zwei2stein · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Considering reaction of typical slashdotter (which shattered some illusions about this crowd) to this news, i think i am entitled to little rage. ANd its not nerf hate, its self righetous pirate hate.

      Yes, d&d is overpriced crap. But:

        There is business competition all over the place.
        There are even great free rulesets.
        Hell, people can play games with homebrewn rules. No books needed.
        Sumplemental materials from any ruleset can be converted to any other ruleset with little imagination. Or people can be creative (they play rpgs, creative is supposedly one of requirements)

      Yet people still want D&D while they have plenty of options (and are not shy to rationalize torrenting it)

      (And yes, anything other than basic survival is luxury. Even if we raise level, i.e. to "just" powerty or "just comfortable life", spending several hours a week on pricey entertainment IS a luxury. No sympathies here for people who can't afford that.)

      I say, publisher followed simple supply/demand law and set price that people would actually pay otherwise they would have gone bancrupt already. As far as being customer goes, simple calculation of buck-per-hour should show you how much value you get.

      Yes, they will add DRM, just like your library. And people here will cry and conveniently forget reason why it was added.

      --
      -- Technology for the sake of technology is as pathetic as eschewing technology because it's technology.
    29. Re:[Don't] Profit! by DragonWriter · · Score: 2, Informative

      Minor note: The Cyclopedia is actually not 2nd edition AD&D, it's a republishing of the alternative line they had going when AD&D came out.

      The "alternative line" had a name: "Dungeons & Dragons", as distinct from "Advanced Dungeons and Dragons".

    30. Re:[Don't] Profit! by lilomar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How many sales do you think you would make with out the 5,000 (I assume happy with your product) pirates?

      $500 is still more than what you would make if only 20 bought your game because of the other 30 never hearing about it from the pirates, or not buying it because they didn't have a chance to try it out for free first.

      --
      The creator of this post (Jacob Smith) hereby releases it, and all of his other posts, into the public domain.
    31. Re:[Don't] Profit! by Brian+Boitano · · Score: 4, Funny

      If D&D (as a traditional RPG) is already performing near or below that bar, then taking an action which has a low expected direct cost that might, the probability is low,improve it to reach that bar (but is likely to fail) may, assuming everything that appears more likely to succeed which has equal or less cost has already been tried, make sense as a last ditch effort to save the line before shutting it down.

      Incomprehensible sentence hits you for 1d6+1!

      --
      What would Brian Boitano do?
    32. Re:[Don't] Profit! by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      assuming everything that appears more likely to succeed which has equal or less cost has already been tried,

      Crux of your argument is pure speculation. Anyone can make up additional parameters to justify a bullshit argument. You might as well have said that the queen of the drow gave them an ultimatum - stop selling PDFs or her she will teleport the corporate headquarters to one of the planes of hell.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    33. Re:[Don't] Profit! by Fulminata · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So in other words, you'll use their product as long as you don't have to pay for it.

      The game is perfectly playable using the three core books, just as every other edition of the game was. Just like every other edition of the game, they continue to produce more books because that's their business model: sell books.

      Also, I'm not a big fan of their online model, but it's not $15 per month, it's $4.95 to $7.95 per month depending on your subscription plan.

    34. Re:[Don't] Profit! by GMFTatsujin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, because piracy is the hallmark ad campaign of the 21st century. And it's free! YAY PIRATES.

      Nice try, guy. I've never had a pirate pitch a product to me that I didn't already own through monetary exchange elsewhere.

      I have plenty of NO-CD cracks, etc, sure. I hunted those down for my convenience to preserve the media I'd already purchased, not for dubious "try-before-you-buy" practices. There's usually a "if you like it, buy it" disclaimer in there somewhere, but to me those always seem flat, half-assed dodges toward looking like something approaching respectability.

      Software pirates are not team players in the market, dude. Practically by definition.

    35. Re:[Don't] Profit! by Basilius · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Whats next? Some sort of physical DRM for printed copies?

      If you dig back into storage and find some of those early 1st edition dungeon crawls, you'll find that they were printed in a lightish blue ink.

      Mimeograph machines and black and white copiers at the time (I don't think color copiers were commercially available yet) had real trouble with that color ink.

      This was intentional. It was, in effect, DRM.

    36. Re:[Don't] Profit! by Gorath99 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Nice job being a dick.

      When you brought out 4e, it was supposed to be a self-contained series of books. There were three books - the DM guide, the Player's Handbook, and the Monster Manual.

      There's nothing preventing you from playing 4E with just the original three core books, just as with previous editions. In fact, thousands of gamers are doing just that, myself included.

      Then you wanted $15/month to access your online content.

      And how is it wrong for WotC to charge $15 a month for access to all the new optional content they put on their website? It's not like Dungeon and Dragon magazines were free either. Plus they had ads and came out once a month instead of every couple of days.

      Then you announced that there were more CORE books coming out. There's a release party every month now. Twelve books a year? Are you insane?

      Yes, WotC is releasing multiple core books for 4E. So what? You don't need them to play the game. And I suppose you just forgot that 3E had 2 PHBs, 2 DMGs and 4 MMs. Plus another one of each if you count 3.0 and 3.5 separately. Also, why is it a problem that WotC releases products every month? (The vast majority of which are not, in fact, core books.) You don't have to buy them you know. Are you also complaining when Nintendo is releasing a game every month? Most gamers would be delighted.

      Then you killed the SRD.

      Granted, 4E is not nearly as open as 3E/OGL/d20 was, but there is still a 4E SRD, and 3E is still open source.

      You see me as a cash cow. Fuck you. I'm not paying you a thousand dollars to get all the books when the full set was supposed to be a hundred - or just fifty online.

      You had to pay thousands of dollars to get all the books for 2E and 3E too. 4E is no different in that. But just as with those previous editions, you don't actually need any books beyond the 3 original core books. I know I'm having a blast playing with just those and I did pay just $50 for them.

      You're liars, you're fuckups, and I do not reward incompetence with my cash.

      You're either a liar or an ignoramus, a copyright-infringer, and you have a twisted sense of entitlement.

    37. Re:[Don't] Profit! by Morlark · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Sad that parent gets modded troll, purely for daring to contradict the slashdot groupthink's mantras, "Copyright is inherently evil", "Corporations are evil", "Criminals who revel in their actions are really fighting for our freedoms"... What rot. If anyone with mod points cares to actually read the parent post before modding, its contents are purely a list of the facts, and then a conclusion (one of many potential conclusions, granted, but a reasonable one) based on those facts.

      Look, I'd be the first to say that WotC's decision to pull all the PDF download services is a dumb move on their part, and an affront to their genuine customers. They're being dicks, based on the actions of an unfortunate few. And it may well hurt them financially in the long run too. But are people honestly suggesting that we should feel sympathy for these eight scum who actively and wilfully sought to sabotage the hobby that they claim to follow? Because when you mod down decent and well-meaning posts like the parent, that's certainly the vibe I'm getting. And I say: bollocks to that. These eight chumps broke the law, and then they flaunted it all over their intertubes. WotC's watermarked PDFs obviously paid off, and they caught the blighters. If said blighters didn't want to be on the receiving end of hefty fines, perhaps they should have thought of that before they chose to embark upon a lifetime of nautical adventure.

      Oh, and just for the people with mod points that apparently still don't get it: "-1, Troll" does not mean "I do not wish to read your insights, and therefore I shall attempt to bury them". Perhaps rather than burying people you disagree with, maybe you should go bury your own head in the sand, that way you won't have to read things you don't like.

      --
      Santa's suicide mission go!
    38. Re:[Don't] Profit! by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yet people still want D&D while they have plenty of options (and are not shy to rationalize torrenting it)

      And so, logically, they should respond to piracy by removing the ability to pay for a legitimate copy? And you think this will put the djinni back in the bottle and there will no longer be any pirated copies on the internet?

      Yes, they will add DRM, just like your library. And people here will cry and conveniently forget reason why it was added.

      I'll remember why: Because they were too thick to realize that the initial leaks to p2p came from publishers, not legitimate .pdf purchasers, and that the DRM isn't going to actually do anything to prevent the guides from being available on p2p.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    39. Re:[Don't] Profit! by oldspewey · · Score: 5, Funny

      This D&D guide will self destruct in 60 seconds.

      ... unless you can successfully roll for save vs. lawyers

      --
      If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
    40. Re:[Don't] Profit! by MaineCoon · · Score: 3, Informative

      Savage Worlds (by Pinnacle Entertainment Group) is even more flexible and adaptable, easier to learn, and in my experience offers more roleplaying and more combat options.

      It has many good things going for it, including many 3rd party publishers jumping on board:

      * Core rulebook is $10 small-format full color book, has rules for nearly any situation, and these rules all follow the same core concepts. Also includes basic equip and monsters for several generic settings (its easy to make more).
      * Easy to learn, yet offers a lot of depth and variety
      * Easy to GM
      * Combat can be tactical w/ minis, or not, at your discretion; it goes fast even if there are lots of combatants.
      * Pinnacle sells all of their products as PDF as well; the Settings books are offered in Full and Player Only versions, and have site licenses granting permission to print copies for your players
      * Lots of 3rd party publishers are jumping on board Savage Worlds; the next Cthulhu RPG will be Savage
      * Lots of homebrew settings available, and it's pretty easy to make one

      --
      Hunt your preferred prey at Aliens vs Predator MUD. Join the war at avpmud.com port 4000
    41. Re:[Don't] Profit! by Chris+Burke · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Old copies? They will be there, sure. But they will not release new stuff as it was obvious that new stuff will be either leaked or just pirated by "customers". Why continue giving them freebie? Why continue competing with "free as beer" P2P while supplying em with new content at same time?

      So you think there's more money in not competing at all, eh? Yeah that's smart. People were buying the .pdfs. And let me repeat, the leaks came from publishers, who could easily create a .pdf to leak to p2p networks when given the book to print in dead-tree format. And barring that, digital copies will still be made. Face it, they will be online and there's nothing you or Hasbro can do about it.

      Given that, why would you make the illegal copies the only copies online?

      What would you propose, keep current service as "legacy"? To compete with piratebay? With no future? No profitability? Waste of manpower.

      Today, you have some people getting copies off of p2p, and some purchasing them legitimately. In the future, everyone who wants a digital copy will pirate it because that will be their only recourse.

      How much effort do you think there is in creating a .pdf to throw online once you've already created the book? Is some money more or less than no money?

      In their rush to prevent piracy, they are pushing their legitimate customers to it. This is a classic case of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    42. Re:[Don't] Profit! by geekoid · · Score: 3, Funny

      That BITCH!

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    43. Re:[Don't] Profit! by bzipitidoo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Money has to be in limited supply. It is a proxy for material goods that are by necessity in limited supply, so that we don't have to resort to barter. That money itself can be printed in practically limitless quantities is beside the point. If it's too easy to copy, then it must be changed.

      The technology today makes it very easy

      Get your head wrapped around that idea. And think, copying will only get easier. DRM is hopeless. They used to call it "copy protection", and it didn't work then either. Copyright is dead, and it's time people understood that. We need other ways to compensate artists and scientists. I've been thinking patronage is the way to go, but maybe not. There's also the services and support model that's had some success, just look at Red Hat and MMORPGs. And the advertising revenue model, which is still of some value though it has been overdone and overvalued. Perhaps a mix of all these is best.

      Then people like you could stop chiding the rest of us for "theft", as if you yourself have NEVER EVER committed copyright infringement, and indeed be out there encouraging as much sharing as possible. Because sharing will be the best way to help an artist. Once again copying will be flattery (the sincerest form!), and flattery will be valuable.

      --
      Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
    44. Re:[Don't] Profit! by tigerhawkvok · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Seems to me they really *are* shooting themselves in the foot with this. Consider people like myself:

      • Look at D&D rules via OGL SRDs
      • Download some PDFs and realize they are a bit easier to find information in, and I enjoy much of the artwork
      • Purchase several dead-tree versions to the tune of a few hundred dollars. Cash to WotC.

      The 4th ed policies make SRDs harder, and with no PDFs to help draw me to paper versions ... well, they'd entirely have lost customers like me, and several of my friends who did the exact same thing. Bad idea, WotC.

      --
      Blog
    45. Re:[Don't] Profit! by JosKarith · · Score: 2, Informative

      Why do people insist on calling Intellectual Property Infringement piracy? Even those who fight against RIAA/MPAA/Whatevaa use the term. Renaming something you dislike is a blatant first shot in the battle ans we just let them gEt away with it. It's like PETA and "Sea Kittens".

      At least they didn't rename IPI to B4by R4ping or the like...

      --
      'Don't worry' said the trees when they saw the axe coming, 'The handle is one of us.'
  2. Does that mean... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...that if they are using D20 dice and they roll a 20, they get out of being sued?

  3. D&D is dead by Metapsyborg · · Score: 2, Interesting

    WotC killed it with 4e. These are the throws of a dying organization, just like RIAA/MPAA.

    --
    (\(\
    (^.^) INFECTED
    (")")
    1. Re:D&D is dead by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 5, Funny

      Everyone should get a saving throw!

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    2. Re:D&D is dead by nschubach · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I kind of hoped that 4e was going to embrace the Internet and allow people to create tools for it... I was trying to have high hopes for the future of D&D, but now I wish I could get a refund for my rulebooks.

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    3. Re:D&D is dead by furby076 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No it isn't. I've been playing since 2nd edition. So far 4e is pretty decent. Yes it has some annoying aspects (daily abilities, more limited abilities to choose from) but it also has some nice ones (when you raise your stat scores you get to raise two of them instead of one, magic items are simpler, healing is simpler, etc). So it has it's positive traits and it's negative traits but overall it's not bad. It's also a much faster combat system.

      While I hate buying the books over and over again I also realize that WoTC needs to do that every so often to get more sales. I was annoyed from 3.0 to 3.5 because that was a sham (3.5 was fixing 3.0), but 4.0 is a complete revamp so warrants it. There is still plenty of 3.0/3.5 material that you can play that. There are some companies that didn't even change and will continue with 3.5 material.

      --

      I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity
    4. Re:D&D is dead by evilkasper · · Score: 3, Informative

      Odd I know a lot of people who enjoy 4e, then again I heard the same thing when they went to 3.5. I heard the same thing when D&D was no longer owned by TSR, etc etc. Point is it's different and still around. The neat thing is you don't have to upgrade to 4e if you don't want to. Hell if you liked the first incarnation of D&D you could still play that.

    5. Re:D&D is dead by evilkasper · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think a lot of us were. All the online tools they talked of in D&D insider. The collaborative game space program that would let you play D&D with your buddies who've since scattered to remote parts of the world. I know there are programs for this but all the ones my group has tried haven't worked very well. Just try not to let the douchebag actions of WoTC ruin the game for you.

    6. Re:D&D is dead by Metapsyborg · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They are not bankrupt, but what they are doing is shattering their core userbase into many different groups. This is not the same as 1st ed vs 2nd ed players, or the players (like me) who still play 2nd and 3e.

      Hasbro/WotC completely dropped support for their OGL that they developed with 3rd edition, but many people still use that. There are many other new, creative RPGs that can easily give D&D a run for its money, and the old powerhouses like Palladium are still going strong.

      It's funny that everything you mention about 4e is in the sense of a dumbing-down or simplifying. WotC has always been obsessed with that concept but it is just not in sync with reality. Gamers love complexity and they want a system that has rich options. Why do you think WotCs attempts to turn RPGs into a kids oversimplified boardgame always fail, and the system inevitable ends up becoming more and more complex?

      As for the actual content, well WotC will never be able to top the greats of 2nd edition; that is when there was true creative talent in the AD&D universe, with settings like Planescape, Dark Sun and Spelljammer as well as the more "traditional" fantasy settings on Toril, Krynn and Greyhawk. WotC has just been living off those great masterminds and reprinting books of lists (feats, skills, equipment, classes, whatever), not creating anything of its own.

      --
      (\(\
      (^.^) INFECTED
      (")")
    7. Re:D&D is dead by furby076 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      there was a lot of 3.0 -> 3.5 errata, and in fact you did not nede to buy new books becasue the difference were all laid out on TSR's web site.

      Except there was so much errata try getting it all into the correct place. Imagine if you bought Windows XP and MS said "we have patches for it, it's on our website. You can d/l it, but you are going to have to drop the files into the correct sections. You will have to delete the appropriate files before you drop in the new files. We won't help you with this. Or you could buy our NEW version which is really just the fixes to the OLD version". I would have been happy if they offered some discount "send us your old books and get 10-25% off the new ones"

      that's 11 movie tickets. Spread out over a few years. Considering the books can be found for under 20 bucks, it's even better.

      Bad analogy to compare movies to books. Also, price is not the issue (nor finding them under retail). People had the "option" of getting the fixes for free (and constantly having to reference them which slows up game time...and time is money) or buy the new material at full price which was a fix to mistakes WoTC made.

      And yes, WotC didn't hire Ninjas to sneak in and destroy all previous version

      I beg to differ. They hired gnome ninja's and their move silently, hide in shadows, and forgery skills are epic!

      --

      I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity
    8. Re:D&D is dead by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Funny

      I'd attack them with a cluewand, but it doesn't work on anyone with an int of lower than 3 or corporations.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    9. Re:D&D is dead by Jaysyn · · Score: 3, Informative

      Athas.org is still making sourcebooks (for free), so is Birthright.net.

      --
      There is a war going on for your mind.
  4. How embarassing.. by qoncept · · Score: 4, Funny

    The most effective part of this move will probably be revealing the names of these 8 file sharers that are playing D&D.

    --
    Whale
  5. Won't stop illegal downloads by furby076 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    People will just do what happened BEFORE WotC started selling their rip-off priced pdfs (pdf should not cost as much as the hard-bound book) they will scan them in and put them online.

    The moment you release your information to the public you open it up to be copied.

    BTW their 4e application (a nice piece of software) requires a subcription to update it (that is fine) my beef with it is if your computer gets reformatted you MUST resubscribe (pay money) to get a full version of it. I think that is crap. If I paid for the software to utilize and decided not to pay for my monthly subscription renewal then I should not have to pay again to reinstall the software.

    --

    I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity
    1. Re:Won't stop illegal downloads by furby076 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Manufacturers can tell retailers to cease and desist from selling their products - electronic or otherwise. If they had a contract which said "Retailer is paying WoTC in advance for 100 licenses of our material for X dollars" then the retailer could say "sure we will stop selling it, but we only sold 20 so you owe us the cost of 80". Otherwise they have no recourse. Yes someone could come up with a lawsuit "I spent 40,000$ creating an ecommerce site specifically for your product which you no longer allow me to sell...you owe me money". But it all depends on the contract they signed. If WoTC had in their contract "we can tell you to stop selling our products at anytime without recourse then you must do so and you can't sue us" well it sucks for the retailer. It all depends on the contract - but to say "that is crap...." without knowing the contract is baseless.

      I love it when people scream "sue" without knowing the facts.

      --

      I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity
    2. Re:Won't stop illegal downloads by Sandbags · · Score: 2, Informative

      Your failure to back up your downloaded software is not their problem...

      If you break/scratch your physical copy, would they have any responsibility? Why should they waste the bandwidth without charging you?

      If you want a better piece of software though, talk to Wonko... Excel 2007 active spreadsheet and database for DnD4e. includes everything! (about 30 days behind release schedule). It can be found at enworld, rpgsheets.com, and a few other places. I'd link, but I'm blocked from that here at the office... Google for "Wonko 4e" Current version is something like 1.47.h.2.

      Oh, and you don't have to "resubscribe" if you are still a subscriber... You CAN redownload it while still a member. The software is not FREE, it's leased while under contract... If youre not paying monthly, you're not supposed to use it (though they're nice enough not to lock it on you if you're not paying) It's SAAS... just offline.

      --
      There is no contest in life for which the unprepared have the advantage.
    3. Re:Won't stop illegal downloads by Sandbags · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually, per the back inside cover in the new DnD 4e books, and per the DnDi website, you're supposed to get a free PDF copy when you buy the hardcover, plus as a subscriber (this part of the service isn't active yet) all the people in your registered game group (who themselves do NOT have to subscribe) can have free online access to ALL the PDF copies anyone in your group owns. They're calling it virtual game table. We're hoping it's up and running this fall. So far, only the character generator is up and running if you're a subscriber.

      WoTC doesn't want you to have ONLY the PDF. They want at least 1 person in your group to have a hard copy, then all of you can share the PDFs. I agree with this kind of sharing system as it 1) controls distribution, 2) allows simple gaming over a virtual table (not all players have to come in person to play!), and 3) still gives me access to the PDF to copy/paste material into planned adventures, plus 4) I still get to have a shiny hardcover, which is usually easier to search than an electronic copy anyway.

      If you play, you should pay. As a group, 6 or 7 of you should be able to afford a few books collectively, and everyone chip in $1 a month towards the online server (once the virtual game table it's running, I don't recomend it right now. Wonko's 4e character generator, although just a spreadsheet, is superior to DnDi's character generator in many ways.)

      --
      There is no contest in life for which the unprepared have the advantage.
    4. Re:Won't stop illegal downloads by furby076 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I like this model where they only expect one person in the group to have a copy of a specific book (though many groups have multiples of each). So if I buy the hard cover I also get the pdf? But if they stop the pdfs this is no longer the case.

      I don't mind the subscription model for the software (they come out with updates once/month) I mind that I have to resubscribe to get material that I previously got...Also backing up is not possible since when you reinstall you have to subscribe to make it a full version (again pay money).

      --

      I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity
  6. They might claim it is about infringement by phantomlord · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What this is really about is them trying to force people to go out and buy 4E material. Having low cost OOP material out there diminishes the value of their current product by saturating the market. D&D is about the story, not about the numbers... so if you have original setting material, it isn't hard to adapt it to current rules.

    They lost me a long time ago when then current head of the AD&D product line tried to assert ownership over all third party content, including homemade settings that weren't tied to any particular rule system, claiming that anything that used the AD&D rules was a derivative work.

    --
    Don't leave your mind so open that your brain falls out. Don't close it so much that you cut off the blood.
    1. Re:They might claim it is about infringement by phantomlord · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Again, this was BEFORE OGL, D20 and SRD... Dancey supposedly came up with them in response to the complaints we had in rec.games.frp.dnd.

      But if you read through the entire threads on the issue at that time, Dancey was definitely strongly implying a whole lot of "if it uses AD&D rules, we own it." Dancey even tried to claim copyright on the game mechanics (which everyone knows aren't copyrightable... the expression of the rules, yes, but not the rules themselves).

      Not being able to afford a lawyer should they try to assert ownership of my campaign setting (which I had available online at the time), I pulled it and none of it has ever been online again since. In fact, I haven't bought any D&D product since 2000, so Dancey sure did a great job at keeping us 1E/2E people excited about the game as they were getting ready to launch 3E. By the time the OGL came out, I had no faith left in TSR/WOTC/Hasbro and, as the post below illustrates, the possibility that they were still claiming ownership of my material if I used them anyway.

      --
      Don't leave your mind so open that your brain falls out. Don't close it so much that you cut off the blood.
  7. This will yield opposite results by Duane13 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So instead of making still LOTS of money off of legal PDF sales, now EVERYONE who wants PDFs will find them on torrents. This will make the torrenting of them more prevalent.

  8. Makes perfect sense by tsstahl · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Now the only avenue of ownership for their digital content is unsanctioned file sharing.

    All future unsanctioned copies will bear the same (at least) 8 watermarks losing TOS abusers in a sea of anonymity.

    Best viral marketing move for an RPG ever.

    ----

    And just when you thought they 'got it'...

  9. WotC wants 3e DEAD! At any cost by swordgeek · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Recently I went looking for some 3rd edition books, since I thought they'd be getting scarce soon.

    Scarce? I was mistaken. 3.0 and 3.5 are GONE. Every local gaming store, every local used book store, every online store in Canada, and everywhere else I checked were out of old editions.

    Especially curious was the fact that one of the gaming stores had about 15 full sets of 3.5 at Christmas, but by the second week of January, didn't have a single copy of any sourcebook from that era. Nada.

    Does anyone know if WotC has done a big buyback? It almost seems like someone has been scouring the bookstores methodically, snatching up everything that would suggest an older edition ever existed.

    Ah well, screw 'em. I'll play what I want, and if I can't buy the material, I _will_ download it. Way to go, Wizards!

    --

    "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
    1. Re:WotC wants 3e DEAD! At any cost by furby076 · · Score: 2, Informative

      I don't know if Wotc did but it would be smart for them to do it and smarter for the bookstores to sell it (gauranteed sales). I doubt Wotc did - WoTC is not in the habit of buying their products. More then likely it is someone who wanted to do the same thing as you.

      You may want to try ebay, amazon, borders, etc. Doing a quick search on amazon dungeons and dragons 3.5

      There are no shortages of books. You can also get it cheaper online.

      --

      I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity
    2. Re:WotC wants 3e DEAD! At any cost by TheSpoom · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Trying to take things off the internet is like trying to take piss out of a pool.

      The sooner companies learn that, the better.

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
    3. Re:WotC wants 3e DEAD! At any cost by geekoid · · Score: 3, Funny

      Huh. Here in Portland Oregon I see them in every hobby store, and in used book stores. can't get rid of that crap fast enough.

      I mean..um.. yeah there scarce how much, exactly, would you pay for these 'scarce' books?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  10. Sword of Litigation +1 by spookymonster · · Score: 5, Funny

    WotC attacks the gazebo!

    --
    - Despite popular opinion, I am not perfect.
  11. Re:oh noes by furby076 · · Score: 5, Funny

    realizing people pirate anything not nailed down

    Great you just gave WoTC a new business model. Whenever you buy one of their books you must buy the installation package which will have a WoTC technician come out and nail the book down into your coffee/gaming table.

    --

    I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity
  12. Hubris by SirGarlon · · Score: 4, Informative

    Back when Wizards of the Coast took over D&D, one of the striking things then-Vice President Ryan Dancey said was that TSR (the former publisher) has obviously not listened to customers and had lost relevancy for that reason.

    Now, Ryan Dancey is no longer at WotC, and WotC is not listening to customers, and what do you know? WotC is losing relevancy. People are going to buy the products they want, in the format they want, from the retailer they want, and you can never make them buy something different. It's as simple as that.

    Fortunately the 3.x rules are open source so D&D can never die, in spite of WotC's seemingly intentional efforts to run their business into the ground. It just can't be called D&D for trademark reasons.

    --
    [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    1. Re:Hubris by SirGarlon · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's only the rules that are open source, not adventures and campaign setting material. So, for example, the Forgotten Realms (most popular RPG setting of all time) is WotC's intellectual property and under their total control.

      However, WotC cannot stop other companies making D&D-like games, settings, adventures, and products for 3.x rules -- as long as they're not called "D&D". Several companies are still doing that. Which makes WotC's move to take themselves out of the 3.x market especially stupid. In the hopes of driving more players to 4E, they're ceding the 3.x legacy market to their competitors.

      --
      [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    2. Re:Hubris by dcollins · · Score: 2, Interesting

      However, WotC cannot stop other companies making D&D-like games, settings, adventures, and products for 3.x rules -- as long as they're not called "D&D". Several companies are still doing that.

      I am in the industry and have co-authored several products published under the OGL.

      Nontheless, if WOTC decided to file suits against OGL publishers on narrow technical grounds (improper referencing, use of the d20 mark as seen at http://www.d20srd.org/, etc.), the will or ability to defend against such suits would be minimal. Even if they were on the right side of the law.

      --
      We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
  13. Illegal by Jason1729 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Unfortunately, this includes offering download access to previously purchased Wizards of the Coast titles.

    Why do these arrogant companies think they can take back what they've sold without compensation? This is ripe for a lawsuit.

  14. Noticed at WotC website. :-D by drewvr6 · · Score: 2, Funny

    A sign at a stone bridge warns, "Stop, pay troll."

    --
    Now we see the violence inherent in the system.
  15. Free Business Hint by clickclickdrone · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If your demographic is largely weighted towards nerdy type males, a demographic whose mantra is 'free the information!' and who live for finding new and interesting torrents, it's probably not a good idea to put your bread and butter product in the digital domain. Just saying...

    --
    I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
  16. Pathfinder (plug for improved 3.5e compat system) by Psymin · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Paizo has come up with a system that I think rocks.

    If you are angry with WotC and their Vista-like 4e, try the Beta .. Real version should be out this year.

    Free Beta Download

  17. The more you tighten your grip by Raleel · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The more starsystems will slip through your fingers.

    and I was going to buy about $300 of 1e pdfs. oh well, guess I'll torrent because I CAN'T GET THEM ANYWHERE ELSE NOW.

    --
    -- Who is the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who follows him? --
  18. Re:It's not about piracy.... by MadKeithV · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Or that they've realized they could be selling the downloads directly for the same price and pocket the difference of selling through a middle-man.

  19. Hey Publishers! PDFs cost too much! by whistlingtony · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Hey Publishers! (all of them!)

    You have a problem with piracy? Perhaps it's because all of you sell the PDF at pretty much full cost of a real book. Why do you do that?

    PDFs don't have printing costs. We know you can sell them for less.
    It's handy to reference a book while playing. It's still kind of cumbersome to reference a PDF while playing... the PDF is less valuable to us.

    If you greedy BEEP would sell good quality PDF files for say.... $3, I'd drop $100 right now. If you would make old books available, I'd drop another $100 right now.

    No Way am I paying $25 for a FILE.

    You brought it on yourselves.

    -Tony

    1. Re:Hey Publishers! PDFs cost too much! by kbielefe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't know why I'm bothering to correct this fallacy yet again. I guess I'm a glutton for punishment. Prices are set by supply and demand, not by direct cost per unit. Allow me to illustrate in terms of something you sell: your labor. This is your employer or contracted customer speaking, whatever the case may be.

      Hey Workers! (all of them!)

      You have a problem with overseas outsourcing? Perhaps it's because all of you want to work for an allegedly "fair" wage. Why do you do that?

      It doesn't cost you much to come to work. A few bucks for the bus and a lunch. We know you can work for less.
      Other workers are much more qualified than you. It's still kind of cumbersome to train someone less skilled... your labor is less valuable to us.

      If you greedy BEEP would agree to work for say.... $3 an hour, I'd hire 30 of you right now. If you would work twice as long, I'd hire another 30 right now.

      No Way am I paying $25 an hour for a worker.

      You brought it on yourselves.

      Sound ridiculous? That's the point. If they could generate more total revenue (pdfs and books) by lowering the price, they would do it. They are "greedy BEEP" after all.

      --
      This space intentionally left blank.
    2. Re:Hey Publishers! PDFs cost too much! by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So, uhm... no? I'm just saying that PDF files cost next to nothing to produce,

      But the information in the book didn't "cost next to nothing to produce"

      next to nothing to "ship",

      Yeah, because servers and bandwidth are free, right?

      and it's kind of hard to pass around a laptop at a gaming session.

      Ever hear of a printer?
      Passing around a laptop is no harder than passing around a book, especially if you put the laptop in the center of the table on a "lazy susan".
      And, pretty much every gamer I know has their own set of books, so why wouldn't they have their own set of PDFs on their own laptop or ebook reader?

      Once again, what makes the books valuable is the information inside the books. I don't care how much it costs to produce a book or a PDF, the cost of producing the information contained in either is still the same and what you are paying for is the information.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
  20. Re:Quite a shame... by Chyeld · · Score: 4, Interesting

    TSR was the love child of two people with a creative idea and the willingness to put it on the line to see it bloom.

    Unfortunately, like most companies formed this way, the business aspect was ignored in favor of the 'beloved product'.

    They never really had a business plan, and if you viewed the history of the company since it's inception, you'd notice that the way they 'made money' was simply coming up with new ways to repackage their idea. And then the founders got into a fight and lost pretty much the whole deal to a numbnut who didn't even like gaming.

    Is it any wonder, when they were purchased by Wizards of the Coast, a company that had a similar history, that the business plan never changed?

    And when Hasbro purchased WoTC, they weren't doing it for D&D they were doing it for Pokemon and to a lesser extent, MtG. They also haven't put any thought into what they should be doing with the older, legacy, properties that came along with the purchase.

    Unlike TSR or WoTC though, Hasbro is a bona fide corporation, they have cube farms and quarterly meetings, middle management and legal divisons. And unlike TSR or WoTC, Hasbro isn't in this for any 'love' of anything other than money. It shouldn't be any surprise that of the three, Hasbro has been the most willing to screw over fans and partners while doing it's double takes and meandering in an attempt to realize a profit on D&D. Not that TSR or WoTC have ever had a history of not doing so, simply that their actions were usually the result of infighting between people who actually felt they had a stake in things instead of some impersonal jackass looking a bottom line on a report.

  21. Funny thing is by logjon · · Score: 2, Funny

    This comes just days after the MAFIAA turned down a WoTC proposal to merge, forming a new entity that would have been dubbed the 'MAFAG,' short for 'Music and Film and Games.' Former RIAA president Cary Sherman was quoted as saying 'fuck you, we damn near committed corporate suicide with shit like that.'

    --
    The stories and info posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood.
    Only fools would take it as fact.
  22. Ho-hum by Runaway1956 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I can't make an argument against this attitude that is anywhere near as eloquent as Eric Flint posted on Jim Baen's free library site.

    http://www.baen.com/library/

    Jim put his money where his mouth was, and GAVE AWAY book, after book, after book. More, if you happen to be disabled, you can contact Baen Books, and they will give to you NOT ONLY the books from their free library, but their mainstream books that are in print.

    Baen books had a lot of money at stake on this gamble. But, they PROVED CONCLUSIVELY that giving stuff away free MAKES MONEY for them. Every time they released a title that had been out of print, sales of that book skyrocketed.

    Over at Baen, the author has to approve his title for the free library, and some authors don't seem to use it. Those authors who have jumped aboard the free library enjoy an increase in income.

    Baen books puts the lie to all the DRM crap, and proves the corporate lackeys to be totally wrong.

    In the case of D&D stuff - if they had any brights at all, they would allow the stuff on P2P to continue, but add some cool stuff that is NOT readily downloadable via P2P. Any intelligent individual can come up with schemes for that. In fact, it would be a small step to release P2P ready material that at the very least promotes the non-P2P, and possibly even DEPENDS ON other non-P2P material.

    It constantly amazes me that lackwit idiots run the corporate world.

    Traveling salesmen and tinkers learned this lesson before electricity was discovered, for God's sake!!!

    --
    "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    1. Re:Ho-hum by grumbel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Baen books had a lot of money at stake on this gamble. But, they PROVED CONCLUSIVELY that giving stuff away free MAKES MONEY for them. Every time they released a title that had been out of print, sales of that book skyrocketed.

      While I congratulate them for their success, I have some doubt about that business model for the future, since it works under the assumption that the digital version is a degraded one and printed one is the 'real deal'. That assumption won't work forever when ebook readers become cheaper, better and more common place, people won't continue to carry books around when they already have a ebook reader with them. And the ebook reader also either already is better or at least has the potential to become more comfortable then a real book in the future. So will there be enough people left buying things, when they could get them for free and lose nothing in the process?

    2. Re:Ho-hum by Runaway1956 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ahhh - but - it seems that you miss the underlying premise. Baen reacted to, and adapted to, the existing market. Such actions reap profits. (accurately anticipating, and adapting to the FUTURE market would be even more lucrative, of course) Those who are so strongly opposed to P2P and other technologies are resisting market change, and refusing to adapt. Such opposition fails to reap rewards. Worse, if they resist long enough and hard enough, they will find themselves bankrupted, and cast off from the mainstream.

      It is the customer who ultimately decides how successful a company is, after all.

      If and/or when the day comes that Baen can't make money off of the printed page, they WILL adapt. They have already proven that they are adaptable.

      A shame that Jim Baen himself won't be there to guide the company along, but he obviously set the example for his replacements.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
  23. Two points to make on top of yours by xant · · Score: 2, Interesting

    #1: Their new license basically rapes you if you want to publish OGL content. It's explicitly designed so that publishers supporting 4e must throw away their 3.xE content, including anything based on OGL, and start over. I read it as "ha ha, fuck you publishers, upgrade bitches." So you're absolutely right that this is not about "piracy", this is consistent with a strategy of wizards desperately trying to scramble for more control of the game. It's about kicking out everyone who might make money off their product who isn't them. It's completely retrogressive and I expect Wizards to get killed in the marketplace; it just takes one strong competitor who Does It Right.

    #2: Check out Paizo publishing. They're doing it right, making a game that continues to be freely licensed and does allow other publishers to add on. With the upcoming Pathfinder RPG, they've basically forked the D&D 3.5E rules, opened them up, and given the finger to Wizards. (Incidentally they were one of the PDF resellers who got kicked in the groin by the recent delisting of PDFs.)

    My money's on Paizo. Literally. I'll be spending money on their products as soon as the release edition is available for sale. The beta edition is already a free PDF download. I've got my copy.

    --
    It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
  24. Re:Proving once more that WoTC are jerks. by MightyMartian · · Score: 2, Informative

    Are you kidding? TSR were a litigious bunch themselves, probably the very worst of the gaming companies in their time. I remember people having to distribute their own modules on BBSs having to do strategic name changes out of fear of being sued into the ground.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  25. Copyright failure by Geof · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Prices are set by supply and demand, not by direct cost per unit.

    Actually, market competition pushes price toward the marginal cost of production. At least that's the theory, and it's part of the justification for copyright. In practice it seldom works out that way. In any case, they have have a copyright monopoly, so they have complete control over supply and they don't have a whole lot of worries about competition.

    What we have here is copyright failure. Copyright was created solely for the benefit of society the public. (At least that's the case in the U.S.: other countries have moral rights. But in this case we have work-for-hire for a company legally required to place profit above all else, so the moral rights issue is moot.) Here we have copyright working to do the opposite of what it is intended to do. Copyright failure.

    Mind, with illegal filesharing their control over supply is illusory. They're acting as though they had a monopoly, but they don't. Which, as so many have pointed out, is why this is so stupid.

  26. OSRIC! by SteveFoerster · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If it's 1st edition rules you want, OSRIC is an OGL'ed clone of them, and you can either use old 1e adventures or there's also now a small ecology of new supplements out that go with it. I wish it'd get more attention.

    -=Steve=-

    --
    Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
  27. Annoying and stupid by pluther · · Score: 4, Interesting

    And who the hell at WotC came up with this idea? Combat piracy by making it impossible to get the products people want through legal means? Yeah, that sounds brilliant. The only thing that could top that would be to cut off access to the content they've already purchased with very short notice. Oh. Oh, yeah.

    I did like Paizo's response to this, though. They announced a 35% sale on all of their pdf's for the rest of the month, and that all purchases of their printed products would include a pdf version at no extra charge.

    --
    If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
  28. Out of Print stuff cut off too! by DrOct · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The REALLY insane thing here is that they've pulled even old edition stuff. I think pulling 4E stuff was also an insane move, but it at least has the illusion of making some small kind of sense.

    But to pull older out of print stuff is just removing a revenue stream. I was actually going to buy several classic adventures sometime soon (and at $5 a pop I could afford to get a bunch), and use them as inspiration for my first run at DMing a game. Now? Well I can't get them legally anywhere, so I guess I might as well hunt down torrent copies. It'll be a bit more work, but if that's the only way to get them it's what I'll probably do.

    I'd also point out that I have pirated copies of some of the first few core books. I got them initially to see if I thought I'd like the new system. I determine I would and immediately went out and bought the PHB, DMG, and MM. I've kept the PDF's because the search-able PDF's are a quick way to look up rules etc, but I still want the physical book for other things, like longer reading sessions to make sure I fully understand the rules etc. I have since bought, in hardcover a couple more books, and have considered buying PDF's of some of the other books (mostly splat-books) I'd likely use less but still might want.

    Maybe they do want people to move on to 4th edition, but this isn't going to make people do it. This is just cutting off a revenue stream for them.

  29. Pirates ruin the day again by rjolley · · Score: 2, Insightful

    WOTC gives customers something that they want, in a relatively open format and it is still shared around by stupid dumbass pirates. Not only do they threaten to ruin the software industry, but now they are coming after my tabletop games as well. What a great digital world we live in!

  30. Happier with GURPS & SJGames by ClayDowling · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've bought a lot of PDF only products from Steve Jackson Games. Partially because I was picking up things that were out of print, and partially because for GM-only reference material, PDF documents are easier for me to handle when I'm prepping for a game.

    Their e23 store has become a major part of their business, and they have pledged to keep downloads available as long as the company still has its doors open. That's saved my bacon a couple of times, like when the USB stick I kept my books on got fried by a faulty device on the USB Bus.

    If you don't mind learning a new system, and you really want to get back to that old-school dungeon crawling feeling that a good D&D game can give you, you might check out their Dungeon Fantasy line of products. It's not for everybody, but there's a pretty big community of people who are getting their rocks off smashing monsters and taking their loot.

    --
    Easy Online Role Playing Campaign Management