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Game Developers On Gold Selling

Eurogamer has an article which takes a look at how various game companies deal with gold spammers in their games. Some, like Mythic, take a hard stance, literally telling farmers and sellers to "go to hell." Others engage in an arms race to block such behavior, sometimes to the detriment of normal users. "In fact, a former Jagex source tells me that when Jagex banned all IPs connected to gold selling, 'they lost 10 per cent of their membership, and still haven't recovered in terms of numbers since they did it two years ago. Even though they have almost stopped gold selling in RuneScape, it has cost them two million active accounts; i.e. there were four million players, there are now two million players, of which less than one million actually subscribe.'" Still more companies are experimenting with real money trading (RMT) to at least establish some control and security over the situation.

42 of 424 comments (clear)

  1. Gold selling is a good idea by cliffski · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Because when I see that people are actually PAYING someone else to play the boring parts of a game for them, it's easy for me to deduce that what we have is not a fun game, but a tedious grindfest designed to keep bored teenagers playing forever and ever.

    The solution to goldfarming should be to find out why earning gold in the game is so bloody tedious and focus your design efforts on making the game fun to play. Games are supposed to be fun, not a second job.

    --
    DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    1. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by Alarindris · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because when I see that people are actually PAYING someone else to play the boring parts of a game for them, it's easy for me to deduce that what we have is not a fun game, but a tedious grindfest designed to keep bored teenagers playing forever and ever. The solution to goldfarming should be to find out why earning gold in the game is so bloody tedious and focus your design efforts on making the game fun to play. Games are supposed to be fun, not a second job.

      I couldn't disagree more. The fact that people are paying money in addition to their subscription means that the game is fun or has value to the player.

      Personally, I never 'grind' gold. I play the auction house and can then do whatever I want.

      "Oh, but see you are avoiding playing the game!"

      No, I AM playing the game. I'm sorry you couldn't figure out a way to do it too.

    2. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by AuMatar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I play games to have fun. If most of a game is fun but a portion of it (grinding gold) is not, I have no problem paying to skip it, if the part I do enjoy is fun enough. Just like in real life- I enjoy throwing a party, but hire a maid to clean up before it. I enjoy driving my car, but pay someone else to change the oil.

      I could use alternate ways to make money, but I don't find playing the auction house fun. In fact, I find it highly unethical. You're taking advantage of people who don't know what things really should cost. That's flat out wrong. And anti-gold farmers complain about my ethics?

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    3. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      There's no real gold grind in WAR. The game has a relatively simple economy mostly based on consumable items.

      However, that never stopped the gold sellers from trying to come in and spamming everyone in tells, although Mythic ultimately was successful in stopping that. I still get some goldspam through in-game mail, but nothing too bad.

      Keep in mind that allowing these guys to proliferate also aggravates "MUDflation" issues that these game economies are prone to. Even if the game doesn't have a gold grind built in, spammers may create one by imbalancing the economy.

    4. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by Majik+Sheff · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Sounds like you fit the mindset of EvE players. The game can be a relentless grindfest or a fantastic exercise in playing the market. It's all in how you choose to play the game.

      --
      Women are like electronics: you don't know how damaged they are until you try to turn them on.
    5. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by Alarindris · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I could use alternate ways to make money, but I don't find playing the auction house fun. In fact, I find it highly unethical. You're taking advantage of people who don't know what things really should cost. That's flat out wrong. And anti-gold farmers complain about my ethics?

      I agree with the first part of your post, but ummm what? I'm unethical for buying peoples under-priced stuff and selling it for what it's worth, but it's OK to violate the TOS and buy from farmers?

      You may want to rethink that.

    6. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by MozzleyOne · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's fine, if playing the market is the "game" you're after.

      My experience is WoW, and the problem is that the majority of people play MMOs for the PvP and the raids, and farming gold is just a necessary evil to do that. Accept that not everyone likes playing the market - I personally loathe it and find it intensely boring.

      It's weird - I want to log on after work, go into a dungeon for 3-4 hours and want to just have fun killing things but I can't do that. For some reason, MMO's have a requirement to grind for things (in WoW's case; enchants, consumables and repairs).

      *THAT* grind is what people are paying to avoid when they buy gold. I don't care if playing the market is fun for some people - I don't like it, and I don't like that every player is forced to take part in this "gold acquistion" game regardless of what they actually want to do. I don't force auction-house players to come do dungeons with me, nor are the forced to do PvP to get gold. Why should I have to get gold to goto dungeons? Why is partaking in the game's economy so necessary? Why can't I just go about my own game without having to go repeatedly kill things to earn money?

      --
      Ayjay on Fedang
    7. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by Alarindris · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why is partaking in the game's economy so necessary? Why can't I just go about my own game without having to go repeatedly kill things to earn money?

      Because if you could do that, anyone could have anything they wanted whenever they want it, and that's what makes a game shitty. Reward needs to be proportional to the effort put in. Remove effort and the reward becomes pointless/worthless.

      PS - Get auctioneer and put in 10 minutes when you log on, you'll have plenty of money in no time. It's not like it takes any real effort.

    8. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by guyminuslife · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I actually think one of the reasons why WoW is popular is precisely because it's mostly boring.

      Imagine if the game were all about instances and non-stop PvP. You sign in and it's like, oh, Unreal Tournament. That's the fun stuff, right?

      There's enough of that to "reward" you for playing. But of course, that's all spaced out over a lot of tedium. Most people playing WoW are bored most of the time they're on it.

      The tedium is essential because it means you start getting attached to menial stuff. You go into guild chat and have SUPER-DRAMA over who gets which raid spot and why did that hunter roll on that shaman gear. The tedium is necessary, of course, as a step in the direction of uber-ness, to get your quest or your experience or your crafting materials or whatever. And so at first you tolerate it. And then you get used to it. And eventually you depend on it.

      Like playing the slot machines; most of the time you lose, but you win often enough that you just have to keep putting in quarters.

      --
      I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
    9. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by Razalhague · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're taking advantage of people who don't know what things really should cost.

      Different things are of different value to different people.

    10. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by Wildclaw · · Score: 1, Insightful

      No. It is just proof that a good percentage of the population have no moral objections to cheating.

      Since the beginning of multiplayer gaming, maphacks, bots and other cheating devices have been created to serve weak minded losers. It has nothing to do with wether the game is fun or not.

      If there is a way to gain an advantage by cheating, a certain percentage of the population will do so. How large of a percentage depends on the type of people in question, but I would wager that it is largely dependent on the behavior of leaders and public figures as well as cultural pressure.

    11. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by Alarindris · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Fair enough.

      But you seem to be suggesting that I contact players to let them know their auctions are too low. They put the price on it, that's what they want to sell it for. I'm buying something from them, not stealing it. It's not unethical at all. Claiming it's unethical is just silly.

    12. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by Chris_Jefferson · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How many people do you think would pay extra money to get an extra queen in chess? How many people would pay to get some more "e"s in Scrabble, even when just playing with friends, if they wouldn't get caught? People like to be the best, and lots of people want to do it without skill or work.

      --
      Combination - fun iPhone puzzling
    13. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      No, you wrong!

      In other words:

      1. I can't buy gold; TOS violation + Poor.
      2. I hate farming gold because of the ruined economy, but sometimes I have to because everything is so expensive.
      3. I don't have enough gold to play in the inflated economy.
      4. See #2 above.
      5. Thinking of quitting MMO's.

    14. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by Tridus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In other words, you want to play a game that has no economy whatsoever.

      That's fine. It means WoW isn't actually aimed at you. Instead of cheating, go play a game that plays the way you actually want it to.

      --
      -- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
    15. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by Alarindris · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But gold doesn't get you everything you want, even now. MMO's almost never let you just buy the best items from gear. The only 2 avenues to getting the best gear in WoW are raiding and PvP - there are really no good items you can just buy.

      Thank god for that.

      If you dumped 500,000 gold on my WoW character now, the only thing that would change is I would stop having to farm gold. My character wouldn't be better, no-one else would be affected - I'd just have more fun.

      Problem is, you are able to then spend less time than everyone else to get X piece of gear from X boss. You could say that the only real MMO currency is time spent playing. A certain amount of effort needs to be put in to achieve any goal.

      Why don't they get rid of health and death? I don't think that's fun at all! I want to have 100% fun all of the time! Get rid of quests, why can't I just start at 80? I don't think leveling is fun either!

      "Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty... I have never in my life envied a human being who led an easy life. I have envied a great many people who led diffcult lives and led them well."

      -Theodore Roosevelt

    16. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by Admiral+Ag · · Score: 2, Insightful

      MMORPGs are in a large part a form of status competition. Being a high ranked player on COD4 matters to some people, but you can't really get there without grinding it. Gold selling allows people to increase their status without personally working for it.

      Competitive games work because you are supposed to be ranked according to a combination of skill and the time you have put in to the game. WoW doesn't really work that way, because even a lot of high level guilds who have really good players have to buy gold to be able to compete at raiding. So the whole thing involves a massive black market of influence that subverts any attempt at making it a fair game.

      To be honest, WoW is pretty comical. It isn't so much a fantasy world, as just another version of the real world transferred to the virtual realm. It has a social hierarchy, bribery, corruption, nepotism, gold-digging, cheating, rudeness and a lowest common denominator sense of manners. I used to think that Azeroth was a terrible place, but then I started looking at the real world as though it were an MMO and it turns out that it isn't that much different from Azeroth (except real women look more like dwarf women than the "human" females of Azeroth).

      WoW is proof that human beings are never going to create a worthwhile society, because they can't even create a decent virtual one, even with the vast amount of control that entails.

      --
      "by that I mean people who don't sit on slashdot all day wondering why everyone else isn't building robots" DECS
    17. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      TR is rolling over in his grave. To think someone would actually twist his quote to mean sitting on your ass munching Doritos and downing Red Bull while you click buttons on a mouse. Oh, the pain and difficulty...

    18. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by master_p · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But in most games reward comes from achieving the game's goals. I haven't played any MMORG, but it seems like those games don't have so much content and therefore reply on a monetary/gold system for rewarding players.

    19. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by aurispector · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The mere existence of an aftermarket for game gold is clear indication of the desire among many (and perhaps most players) to avoid the entire gold-making portion of the game. Raiding is fun, grinding and auctioneering are not - for a significant percentage of players. The amount of daily effort required to grind out gold for basic raiding necessities certainly killed it for me.

      Blizzard, etc., fail to acknowledge this and people simply take matters into their own hands via the black market. Real world governments that over-tax their people do the same thing-they force the market underground.

      Blizzard could completely eliminate the farmer problem overnight simply by the creation of an official pay-for-gold market. This would undercut and eliminate the professional farmers by allowing a "legal" place to buy gold. Normal market forces would apply and resource prices would accommodate - if resource prices rise resource farming becomes more profitable, too. Blizzard, rather than anonymous farmers, would profit and everyone stays happy. Problem solved.

      --
      I have mod points. The reign of terror begins now.
    20. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by sherriw · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm suddenly glad I never tried WoW. Your description sounds like some kind of virtual hell.

    21. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by mabhatter654 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      the problem is that paying for things in an MMORPG is a legal mess right now. Right now the rules are strict.. your character and items are just "score points" as far as Blizzard and the lawyers are concerned, they have no "value" beyond your fun. Once they start taking real money for Gold it becomes "property" and the things you buy become "property" as well. Second Life has problems with these suits and the courts are pretty fickle right now as the case law is constantly shifting.

      After the property rights issues then they would have to deal with gambling, and taxes, not to mention reporting stolen accounts to law enforcement... see how this gets nasty.

    22. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by Rich0 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You could say that the only real MMO currency is time spent playing. A certain amount of effort needs to be put in to achieve any goal.

      You've hit the nail on the head exactly, but I disagree with your conclusions.

      In my experience people who hate trading of real-world cash for in-game gold tend to be people who have lots of time to play, and not lots of real-world cash to spend. People who like to buy in-game gold tend ot have little time to play, and lots of real-world cash to spend.

      Obviously self-interest dictates that people who have lots of time to kill should want the game to reward time spent above all else. People who have lots of money to spend want the game to value real-world money above all else.

      There really is no "right" and "wrong" way to design a game. Thus, there is no end to arguing between these parties and a huge arms race as people willing to take real-world money will do whatever they can to create in-game advantages for their customers to stay in business.

      I think there needs to be a balance. Games should not be designed so that new players can't expect to enjoy the majority of the game until they've spent 300,000 hours playing it. New content needs to be available at all levels of play. On the other hand, it isn't good for gameplay when some newbie can walk around killing people left and right with an uber-sword-of-destruction that they bought for $19.95 on ebay.

      I think that if you make the game fun and have rewards both for people who have leveled for 18 hours a day and also for those who play an hour a week and don't level at all, then you'll get rid of much of the incentive for farmers.

    23. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by vertinox · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I couldn't disagree more. The fact that people are paying money in addition to their subscription means that the game is fun or has value to the player.

      Umm... I really disagree.

      Mythic has really shown how you get rid of gold farmers in Warhammer online.

      By making gold (or currency) a moot point in the economy.

      The majority of the game revolves around rewards for either PvP or quests which result in no-drop bound loot which cannot be traded.

      I mean money is still worth some things (like buying mounts and non-essentials), but overall most players are worried about actually playing than grinding.

      I don't like gold farmers either, but I see them as a sign the game is broken and not the other way around like the GP.

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    24. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by thesandtiger · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It also assumes that "buying something that was listed below market price and reselling it for a more appropriate price based on prevailing market conditions" is the same as "taking advantage of someone's weakness," which is rather a big stretch - I don't actually see the two as being connected in any way.

      Further, it presupposes that making a profit on a transaction is inherently taking advantage of someone - it isn't. For any transaction to take place, both parties have to agree that engaging in the transaction is worth more to them than not engaging in the transaction. The player listing an item at less than market price essentially said, "I want to sell this item for X price, X being the minimum amount I'd be willing to accept." They may not be fully informed as to the actual market rate for that item, but that is their choice - they're choosing to not gather market information because to them, making whatever they make from selling the item and not spending the time getting an idea of the proper valuation is worth more to them than gathering the proper pricing information and then selling the item for more.

      The only time I could see this being unethical would be if someone posted an item for, say, 50 silver when they meant to post it for 50 gold - that's taking advantage of an error. My policy when I see something that simply must be an error (like a recipe that usually goes for 2500g being sold for 25g) is to buy it, then mail it COD (for the amount I paid) back to the person who posted it with an explanation that I assumed the price was an error.

      Funny enough, the last time I did this, the guy who I mailed it to called me an asshole for sending him something COD, returned it to me, and demanded that I re-send it but not COD or he would report me to the GMs. This was on an item that usually goes for 6,000-8,000 gold mimimum, and he had listed it for 6 gold. Needless to say, I did not send it back, am a little under 7,000 gold richer, and had a good laugh with the GM when I was contacted to explain the situation. I absolutely don't think I was unethical in my handling of the situation.

      --
      Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
    25. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by CyberNigma · · Score: 2, Insightful

      yeah I don't agree with his analogy, but he's got a point. I work, have a family and am a veteran so I know what effort is. There's no way someone could convince me that someone putting their hard-earned money into a game to skip to the fun stuff is less of an effort than having the loads of time freely available to 'earn' it in-game. I make six figures and have to manage my time because I do a lot of work and spend time with the family. I compete in the games I play with kids or young adults (many that still act like kids) that have nothing but time on their hands. Who do you think puts in more effort? For what it's worth I'm a guildless (never been in a WoW guild) 25-man geared raid tank in WoW, only because I took a bit of vacation I hadn't been able to take in a while.

      RMT and WoW is a moot point, however since it's explicitly banned in there (which doesn't make it unethical, just makes it risky - people have some really weird ideas about ethics these days).

      If wow allowed RMT for dungeon-set level gear so that people with less time could bypass gearing up for the endgame stuff then all the better. RMT should never allow for end-game gear, but then again you shouldn't be able to get end-game gear just by spending time doing something. It should have always been about skill, something most MMOs have a serious lacking of nowadays anyway. As others have said, two paths would be optimal, as long as neither path is abused.

    26. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by vux984 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It also assumes that "buying something that was listed below market price and reselling it for a more appropriate price based on prevailing market conditions" is the same as "taking advantage of someone's weakness," which is rather a big stretch - I don't actually see the two as being connected in any way.

      It really depends. If the vorpal sword of god slaying is "mispriced" where the owner was selling it for 1k instead of 1000k, its unethical to take advantage of it. (Although if you don't someone else surely will... so really the nicest thing you can do is buy it, and then offer to sell it back to him for the 1k error price -- and I've done this for people.)

      However, if the vorpal sword of god slaying is listed at 900k when you know you can sell it for 1000k, its perfectly ethical to buy it and flip it. The original owner was happy with 900k, and perhaps he just wanted to get it out of his inventory quickly, while you may take a couple weeks to make the sale at 1000k.

      Other times, you have players who accumulate random tradeskill stuff that they just dump on the market. And they'll end up selling a rare herb far below market value or something. Again, its not really unethical to take advantage of that. These players really have no interest in doing any of the work to sort out which herbs are valuable and which are trash, and they just throw them into the auction to unload them quickly. On some level you are taking advantage of their ignorance but they are willing partners. They know some herbs are more valuable than others, but they just blow them out because they can't be bothered to sort them, they've accepted that they are selling these below value.

    27. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by AuMatar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Retail stores actually provide value- real goods need to be warehoused and displayed in a location near the purchaser. These needs don't exist in video games. Garage sales are completely different- there's no middle man, its one person selling to someone else.

      And yes, I find many real world businesses highly immoral as well- it depends on whether they add value, and how much of a profit they make on doing so. A few percent for actual value added is reasonable. Large rates or being a pure middleman and just taking a cut are not.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    28. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by djp928 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Explain why your first situation is "unethical" and the second one is not. Avoid using terms such as "it just is" or "if you don't understand, I can't explain it." Also, try avoid rationalizing it by assuming you know what's going on in the head of the seller, like you do in your second example ("The original owner was happy with 900k, and perhaps he just wanted to ge tit out of his inventory quickly...)

    29. Re:Gold selling is a good idea by djp928 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Someone selling a significant and obviously powerful item for 1/1000th its price is -VERY probably- a mistake. The circumstances under which a normal person would do this are VERY unusual. Further, in the big scheme of things, its a BIG mistake. It doesn't take a lot of empathy to see that will -VERY probably- affect the other player significantly.

      That's not seeing things 'my way'; its an objective truth.

      I agree you can't KNOW for sure that its a mistake, or how its going to affect the other person. But we should be able to objectively agree that you do know its VERY probably a big mistake, and that its VERY probably going to significantly negatively affect the other person if it is.

      And again, I point out that the onus for getting the listing right is on him, not you. I don't see how you have any ethical burden to not buy the sword at his listed price just because you think he screwed up the listing. Is it just because the discrepancy is so big? What if we look at it this way. What if some guy is selling an item you think you can resell for 10g for 7g? Is it wrong to take a profit there? If that's wrong, then you just don't believe in capitalism. Which is fine, but in that case maybe don't play the AH in WoW.

      But if that's not wrong, where do you draw the line? You've apparently drawn it somewhere before you get to 1k for a 100k item. And I still say, that's fine, but it's your choice. There's no objective reason for anybody else to also draw the line there, or even anywhere.

      It hurts him a lot? On what scale? How much is a lot? 1k for a 2k item? 1k for a 5k item? Is that too much?

      The game has rules. In this case, the game we're talking about in particular happens to be World of Warcraft (or likely some other MMORPG, but let's assume WoW since we both are apparently familiar with it.) You list an item on the AH with a buy price, that's the price. You don't get take backsies once the auction sells. The onus is on you to get the listing right in the first place. How can you fault someone for buying what you're selling for the price you're listing it for? Everybody played the game by the rules--you just screwed up your opening gambit, as it were.

      I personally don't see anything at all wrong or unethical about buying an item for the price the seller listed it for. I happen to think that if after I bought the item, and while it was still in my possession, the seller asked me nicely to return it for a refund because it was a screw up, it'd be a dick move not to do so. Dick move, sure, but unethical? I don't buy it. Not nice, maybe. But there's a shitload of things in life that aren't nice, but they don't qualify as unethical.

      Is it really "nice" to buy something, *anything*, from somebody, at any time, in WoW or IRL, that you knew for a fact you were going to turn around and sell for a profit? Wouldn't the "nice" thing to do be to tell the guy selling the item "Hey, I know this guy who will pay half again what you're asking for that thing"? Sure, nice maybe. But is it unethical? I don't see it. It'd be unethical to mislead the guy into thinking you were giving him a super deal at the price you're paying. It'd be unethical to lie to the guy and swear you have no idea what the thing is "really" worth. But other than that? If I see a car in a used car lot selling for $1500 and I take a look at it and know I can put half an hour into cleaning the interior and sell it for $2500 to someone else, how is that unethical? If I see a Faberge egg in an antique store I know is worth thousands selling for a hundred bucks, is it unethical to buy it for the hundred bucks the shopkeeper is asking for it? Where's the line? Again, you may think it's not nice, and in several of these cases I'd even agree with you. But again, "nice" and "ethical" are not synonyms.

      I'm fairly certain you're going to tell me it's a matter of degrees, and that at some point a line is crossed. But again, I'm saying that is a personal choice, and you will inevitably draw the line in a different place than I will, or that the used car salesman down the block will. I think you're fooling yourself with your appeals to "objective truth".

  2. MMORPGs and the 'Something Shiney Effect.' by KyoMamoru · · Score: 2, Insightful

    MMORPGs as a whole are designed to spread content through the level range, where equipment is relatively scaled to what you need at the time. In WoW, you can easily survive till level 50 by just using the loot that you find on enemies you defeat. If you stick with the quests that are given, you get great level specific hand outs. Unfortunately, once through in the existence of a higher level, players will not care about the content that they are already in. It is this style of player that is prayed upon by the Gold/gear sellers. They want to experience the high end of a game, and don't care at all about the low end. They do no care about the quality of the level 10 quests, or anything else that doesn't gratify them instantly. No matter what a game developer does, they will never be able to prevent this manner of thinking without abolishing the entire working model of an MMORPG. People love progress. They love the thrill of leveling up and gaining near gear. Gold Farming is just an byproduct of the system.

  3. A different point of view by Thanshin · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How much people would play chess if players could pay 20$ to change one of his pieces into a queen?

    Chess is an extreme example but the point is, some people play to compete. Maybe not in a direct confrontational way but they like getting some kind of advantage by playing "better".

    Having people who directly buys advantages in the game makes it less interesting for the competitive players.

    Usually, there are more competitive players than players willing to spend money for an advantage, and the game creators try to keep the bigger group.

    If the spending players weren't heavily outnumbered they'd be a better marketing target and more games would be based on the "Buy the better gun" model.

    1. Re:A different point of view by Andy_R · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In Runescape, the difference was that gold seller controlled bots made it almost impossible for human players to compete for certain resources.

      If you chose to ignore the fun parts of the game and did the boring grind through 60 levels of woodcutting in the free version of Runescape, you could eventually unlock the highly profitable ability to chop yew logs... but you'd find that every yew tree in the game was surrounded by dozens of bots, meaning you had little chance of actually getting any logs.

      --
      A pizza of radius z and thickness a has a volume of pi z z a
  4. Time = Money = Power = Cocaine by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Which is fair..

    A lawyer working 60 hours a week, buys a 600 hour character and a million gold for 5 hours of income.
    or
    A student, retired, or independently wealthy person who plays 60 hours a week? Always gets the best non-instanced content first (sometimes blocking it for over a year to other users).

    ---

    The game company sells levels, gear, experience for money.
    or
    The game company sets up quests so you if you can be logged on continuously for 14 to 24 hours you have a 100% chance of success.
    If you can log on 24 hours in 2 hour chunks, there is a good chance you will *never* finish the quest (25 to 30%)

    ---

    Who is more skillful
    The person who can log on at 1pm, get the best camps, play for 12 hours straight, and reach the new level cap in a week?
    The person who uses a cheating macro program that lets them see what loot the monsters are carrying and where the monsters are even when their characters are "blind"?

    ---

    None of these are fair. I applaud the efforts by the game companies to make a game fair.

    But morality is such that mmorg gamers would feel it was fair to be able to buy extra cards in poker or to get the best hands because they could show up earlier than the other players, or win merely by virtue of being able to stay at the table for 18 hours straight.

    ---

    Games have rules. The rules for chess, checkers, acquire, dominion, hell even D&D, are not based on "the person with the most money or time wins".
    When people try to play MTG and other CCG's like a money game, they quickly lose the ability to play with ordinary players and get stuck in their own brackets even at tournaments.

    It's pretty disgusting.

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  5. Re:Why oppose it? by Morlark · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Developers being cocks? Sorry, I actually facepalmed when I read that. I take it you've never played an MMO? Gold selling thrives in MMOs because, at the end of the day, there is one fundamental truth that applies both in and out of game: (some) people are stupid. Gold selling has a noticeable and significant negative effect on the game. Sometimes this means they've got their bots out keeping a given zone completely barren of mobs, so that any actual players who want to do anything in the zone are unable to do so. Sometimes it means that the gold sellers flood the auction house with the items they have farmed up, meaning that any legitimate player who wants to sell some items for a bit of gold can't do so because the going rate for those items is so low that they can't turn a profit. On the flip side, the people who have bought gold now have so much money that the market price for other (non-farmable) items goes through the roof, meaning that honest players can't afford the things they want. Gold selling absolutely ruins the in-game economy, which makes the game a lot less fun for everybody, and that means the developers lose subscribers. That is why.

    In fact, in recent years, things have got even worse. As the developers get better at spotting the behaviour of the gold sellers' farming bots, the gold sellers change tactics. Instead of targeting the game, they target the players - through various trojans and keyloggers and whatnot, they compromise a players account, strip it bare of gold and items, and then sell the proceeds on to other players. Of course when the player discovers this, they immediately go crying to the devs demanding that their items and gold be restored. The dev company then has to spend god knows how much on employing extra customer support staff to deal the player's own lax account security. That is a direct cost to the dev company caused by gold sellers. The claim that the developers are being cocks by protecting the interests of both themselves and the players is laughably ignorant.

    Allow me to finish up with a little personal anecdote. An acquaintance of mine in WoW once had his account compromised by gold-sellers. I don't know how, since he's usually a fairly tech-savvy person, but everyone slips up once in a while. The gold sellers stripped his character completely clean, took everything he had, and passed it on. When he finally got his account back, and was waiting for his items to be restored, you know what his first response was? He went straight to the gold sellers and bought some gold, to cover what he had lost. Yup, he went to the very people who had stolen his (imaginary) gold, and paid them real money to get it back. And he never once made the logical connection that the people who had taken his stuff were the same people he was dealing with. The average person really is that stupid.

    It's only a minority that actually does buy gold, so you can't even claim that "players want it". But when the developers have to fight an uphill battle against both the gold sellers and that stupid minority, so that they can improve the game for those very same players, you do have to have a bit of respect for what they do.

    --
    Santa's suicide mission go!
  6. Re:Why oppose it? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The problem is it creates an uneven playing field. Players who can afford to spend real money buying gold get ahead of those who cannot, until it creates a situation where you pretty much have to pay for gold to keep up with the other people in your guild or spend many, many hours grinding. At that point you realise that either you are spending far too much money on the game or far too much time grinding the game and cancel your subscription.

    --
    const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
    SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  7. Re:Shoulda listened to Mom by Quothz · · Score: 2, Insightful

    TFA:

    when Jagex banned all IPs connected to gold selling, "they lost 10 per cent of their membership...there were four million players, there are now two million players, of which less than one million actually subscribe."

    Lost 10%...went from four million to two million players. Maybe someone should have spent less time playing WoW and more time doing their school work...

    That's not what TFA says at all. I should report you for ellipses abuse.

    What the article actually said was that once instance of banning gold buyers and sellers bumped 10% of their users; since then, their efforts have further reduced their player base to about half of what it once was.

  8. Not exactly by wantedman · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The gold farmer often hack other players and use game exploits to obtain their gold. They obtain gold outside of the game's mechanics. They are an outside force in the game between monster drops and marketing for gold.

    Gold farmers increase the supply of money and therefore increase the price of everything. I've seen games where farmers have gone nuts and drove the price where it was impossible to earn enough gold through legitimate means to play fairly with people who have enough gold.

    Worse, is that the gold farmers, especially those that use an exploit take away that area for normal players. No one can train or farm for gold legitimately, because a gold farmer has ruined the training area for everyone else*.

    *An example would be a vacuum hack, which causes all items to be vacuumed into a hacker's inventory and far away from legitimate players.

    Gold farmers also ruin the community, because they don't play to be part of the community.

  9. Re:Playing the action house don't work by fractoid · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The net result is that you need to "farm" for hours some stuff to get the money, or jsut give up on it. Don't get me started on some of the superfluous stuff like mount (with 45 gold 100 to 200% the real money of a newbie at level 30 unless you never had to buy anything at all) or bags.

    No, the net result is that you can sell a level 15 green-quality sword for 2-3 gold instead of for 20 silver. People with high level characters think nothing of paying a few gold to kit out their latest alt, which means that it's very easy to make gold fast as a lowbie. Hell, stacks of copper ore sell for 20-30g on some servers. My wife recently started her first Alliance-side character, it's now level 23 and has well over 50 gold.

    --
    Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
  10. Good! Grind will die! by Aladrin · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I played MMOs like 12-15 years ago. They were as addictive back then as they are today. Eventually, I managed to shake that addiction naturally, and not it has no hold on me.

    Don't get me wrong, I -want- to like it... I just can't sit there for hours straight doing the same mindless crap over and over.

    Anyone who is in my position and has tried a 'high rate' pirate WoW server can tell you that it's a LOT more fun. (Less addictive, but more fun.)

    Eventually, we'll get through the current group of addictees and everyone will be looking for fun instead of addiction. At that point, there's going to be a HUGE market for fun MMOs. In fact, there's probably already a pretty nice market as it is.

    --
    "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
  11. Can't fix it... by cyberjock1980 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There is always a demand for currency, both in the real world and the games.

    I have a respectable 60kg total over 3 servers in WoW. I can buy almost any item I want, but I can't buy the levels or the raid experience.

    Think of it like this. If tomorrow Blizzard said that all mobs in the game will now suddenly drop 100x the amount of gold they have before guess what the prices of merchandise on the AH will do? I'd say about 100x increase. Anyone could suddenly go kill a mob and get 50g to buy a stack of potions or whatever at the old AH price.

    People take the path of least resistance. In the world of MMORPGs, they buy Gold. In the real world, there's 2 choices.

    1. For those that need instant gratification, they work at WalMart making $9/hour forever at a job.
    2. For those that plan ahead they go to college, get a degree, and then make $30+/hour in a career.

    MMORPGs are built almost entirely on instant gratification. You don't start a quest on level 2 and are still working on it at lvl 80. Instant gratification falls into the 'buy gold online' persona.

    Why are people surprised/disgusted that MMORPGs attract the 'instant gratification' personalities, and then deliberately scold them for having those traits?

  12. Re:Here is some reality by apachetoolbox · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If I had mod points you'd be +5 already, thank you for commenting with +int