China Denies Role In US Grid Hacks

Slatterz writes "The Chinese government is denying any involvement in the reported infiltration of US electric grid systems. Xinhua news agency quoted Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson Jiang Yu as saying that any sort of involvement from China in the incident 'doesn't exist at all.' The denial follows a report in the Wall Street Journal which claimed that agents from China and Russia along with several other countries had infiltrated the computer systems charged with managing electricity in the US and left behind software payloads which could be used to control or disable electric grids in the US." Bruce Schneier is skeptical about the whole story.

Comments

Two schools of thought here:

[slimjim8094]

Either they did it and aren't telling (would we?) or these are simple hackers like in Russia, the Ukraine, or even here. Or they're part of the mob.

This assumption that it must have been committed by the government is unfounded; though I would not be surprised at all. Wouldn't we if we got the shot?

Re:Two schools of thought here:

[toQDuj]

Perhaps it's just a case of the US energy grid getting old and crappy, and someone else needing a scapegoat for the trouble to come.

B.

Smoke and mirrors

[TheLink]

If the US Gov did it to China, China would have a nice chat with the US ambassador and use that as ammo in the next round of negotiations (trade/military) etc.

Same for the other way round.

And if it were really serious, it'll be more like "Stop that or else!".

So clearly it isn't anything serious.

Most of this "China Bogeyman" stuff is just some political posturing or "smoke and mirrors" for some USA entity's benefit.

Just some distraction from the real issues.

i know ill get bitched at for this

[nimbius]

but could it be possible that for once, we're not under constant attack from enemy nations and have nothing to really fear?
the last time we cringed in terror at another country as a pretext for invasion, it turned out they were guilty of a lot less than we
originally conjectured.

if china were hacking into our powerplants and infrastructure, what purpose would it seriously serve? china manufactures a bulk of american goods, and holds a bulk of american debt.
we are an economic interest, so one could argue harm to us is harm to china.

Re:i know ill get bitched at for this

[emocomputerjock]

Are you honestly asking what purpose does technological dominance serve? Do you think any nation would turn down the ability to flip the switch on another country, regardless of the status of relations between the two?

Re:i know ill get bitched at for this

[izomiac]

and holds a bulk of american debt. we are an economic interest, so one could argue harm to us is harm to china.

Well, apparently China holds 1/16th of the national debt, which is essentially what Japan has as well, so I wouldn't call that the bulk. OTOH, if they did hold the bulk of the US debt, debt as a deterrent isn't that great an idea. Or at least it didn't end well for the Knights Templar...

the solution is ..

[viralMeme]

The solution is to take computer systems charged with managing electricity off the Internet

Re:the solution is ..

[IP_Troll]

it really isn't a realistic or technically feasible.

Either you missed the point of the OP or are ignoring it on purpose. There is no reason for the power grid to be on the consumer internet and you cited none.

The power grid was designed before the internet.

The controls you described to switch power between providers already exist. There is not a human being flipping switches at every substation with "walkie talkies", there is already an automated system to switch power which is completely independent from the internet. If you want to upgrade this already existing network to include modern hardware, do not connect it with the internet.

You are acting like it is impossible to create a network of computers without WWW access. The power grid doesn't need twitter, or even a GUI interface, it just needs to send simple signals between embedded systems. transmitting signals between embedded systems can be accomplished without connecting the power grid to facebook.

Re:"along with several other countries"

[furby076]

If Israel hacked the US grid they are most likely getting paid by the US to show the US where the weak-points are. This is not unheard of. Israel is very good with technology and network security. But Israel really doesn't work with Russia, Russia hates Israel - largely due to the fact Israel supported the US during the cold-war against Russia.

Common sense

[dword]

This is like "duuuuh!", like you know...
It's like I can't see why China would like, you know, PUBLICLY ADMIT LIKE THEY'RE FUCKING WITH THE U.S.

This is not news at all. Thank you.

FUD

[omar.sahal]

"intrusions were detected not by the companies in charge of the infrastructure"

but

"U.S. intelligence agencies"

Officials cautioned that the motivation of the cyberspies wasn't well understood
Officials are the ones making the accusations

China, for example, has little incentive to disrupt the U.S. economy because it relies on American consumers and holds U.S. government debt.

A spokesman for the Chinese Embassy in Washington, Wang Baodong said..

"some people overseas with Cold War mentality are indulged in fabricating the sheer lies of the so-called cyberspies in China."

As Bruce Schneier said which one of these power outages is by hackers
I just hope this isn't some cover for the US to do what their accusing others of, why else this line below...

Congress approved $17 billion in secret funds to protect government networks

I will be the first to not bitch at you, then

[monoqlith]

You're absolutely right

I'm skeptical of the whole story. Is our eletrical grid really accessible to spies? If our electric grid is connected at all to the public Internet then we have bigger problems, namely TeH Stupid, and we'll soon defeat ourselves with our own dementia.

Second, When you find software 'payloads', as the story claims the officials have , is your first impulse not to phase out all infected systems and replace them with safe, clean ones? This seems pretty easy to fix.

Re:"along with several other countries"

[Anonymous Coward]

Not necessarily. Israel, France, Britain, and a few other such "allies" all have active intelligence operations in the US, for various reasons. I wouldn't be surprised if hacking into critical infrustructure systems was among the activities of one such country.

Puh-lease. Israel likely has active intelligence operations in the US, but there's no way that they hacked into the US power grid illicitly because they have no interest to do so. Israel's intelligence in the US is primarily directed at gathering information about Israel's enemies that the US chooses to withhold (for applying political pressure to Israel--neither country is a perfectly wonderful "ally"). Hacking into the power grid is only useful to someone who wants to attack the US or hold it for ransom and clearly Israel, France, and Britain do not fall into that category.

Re:That's It

[Paul server guy]

If they are going to turn off the power while I'm trying to watch "Ow, My Balls" on Fox or if my government successfully gets me to believe that, I am going to vote for whoever will blow them back to the stone age.

Don't laugh. That's what the "war on terror" and now, this, are all about. We here in the U.S. need a bogie man! We need for someone to be the "bad guy" so that the government can "protect us" from them. And it's really easy to in a culture that is heavily inundated with religions that have a Zorastrianist view that everything is a struggle of "good" vs. "evil". And of course we're the "good guys", so they must be the "bad guys", right?

I, for one, wouldn't be surprised if the electrical grid weren't being inflitrated by CIA or NSA hackers.

And I'd mod you insightful...

Seems unlikely

[TiggertheMad]

Given that actively infiltrating another country's critical infrastructure and sabotaging it would be considered a provocative act of war by a good number of states, it seems unlikely that China would be eager to do this. Yes, they are communists, but they are not particularly eager to get in a big pissing match with the USA, when they seem to be doing so well selling us anything that isn't nailed down. It is possible that such an act is the action of a independent minded general or politburo functionary, but if it is, I expect that they will get slapped down. China gets no real benefit by provoking a major trade partner and heavily armed world power. They are doing quite well right now, and we aren't even really an enemy. Rivals perhaps, but there is nowhere the level of animosity between the US and China that there was between the US and the USSR in the 60s or 80s.

However, China has a number of slavering nationalistic hacker groups operating inside their borders. This seems like the sort of stunt they might pull. If they are responsible, and they blew the job, China will just round up a bunch of them and ship them off to inner Mongolia work camps as an object lesson to their peers. China might be willing to turn a blind eye to their activities while they are a nuisance, but they cannot allow rogue nationalist groups provoke international incidents. It is possible that they are working with the Chinese military, but that doesn't seem that likely, as any link revealed would be a major embarrassment to China and you are back to the same issue of risk vs. reward. States aren't generally eager to cut loose non-government entities to act on their behalf.