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Employee (Almost) Chronicles Sun's Top Ten Failures

Business and Open Source pundit Matt Asay picked up on a recent attempt by Sun's Dan Baigent to chronicle the ten largest failures that took the tech giant from a $200 billion peak valuation to the recent buyout by Oracle for a mere $7.4 billion. Unfortunately, Dan only made it to number three on his list before Sun pulled the plug. How long will it take corporate overlords until they finally realize that broad level censorship and trying to control the message are far more harmful than just becoming part of the discourse? "I find that I tend to learn much more from my failures than from my successes. I'd be grateful for the chance to learn from Sun's, too. Sun, please let Baigent continue his countdown. It allows Sun to constructively chronicle its own failings, rather than allowing others to do so in less generous terms."

194 comments

  1. And the number one reason why Sun failed by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 5, Funny

    1. Not enough free soda pop.

    *cue Paul Shaffer and the CBS Orchestra to play something catchy*

    1. Re:And the number one reason why Sun failed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the bright side, Oracle provides free soda pop to their employees, so it should be smooth sailing from here on out.

    2. Re:And the number one reason why Sun failed by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      I always thought a video game company was going bad when they stop handing out free T-shirts to all the employees.

    3. Re:And the number one reason why Sun failed by Alien+Being · · Score: 1

      Free, as in software, not as in soda pop.

      Really, Sun's only hope was to embrace the onslaught of OS. Cripes, their maiden products were built of it. They made Open Systems a reality. They were a phenomenal company. They did more innovating than MS will do in a thousand years.

      Why did they have to unbundle the compiler and leave people with 1/2 a UNIX system? Why couldn't they save admins time by putting emacs and gcc on the tapes? Why did they fight CDE for so long? OK, CDE sucked, but it would have been better than forging ahead with OpenLook.

      They could have been and should have been the next IBM. Now they're dogmeat. It's sad.

    4. Re:And the number one reason why Sun failed by mzs · · Score: 1

      Ha! When things were going great at Sun we got free t-shirts and why yes there was free pop in the fridge too.

  2. See, the thing is... by TheSpoom · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Company leadership would like people to think that the company has no failures. Ridiculous, of course, but there you have it.

    --
    It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
    - E. Debs
    1. Re:See, the thing is... by rackserverdeals · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Company leadership would like people to think that the company has no failures. Ridiculous, of course, but there you have it.

      I wonder if it has more to do with the sale to Oracle that has not been finalized.

      If you're selling your car, you don't want your wife coming out and telling the guy why you're getting rid of it before he hands you the cash.

      I have my own theories on why Sun had to sell and surprisingly it had to do with Notes.

      --
      Dual Opteron < $600
    2. Re:See, the thing is... by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Company leadership would like people to think that the company has no failures. Ridiculous, of course, but there you have it.

      More importantly, company leadership would like people to forget the past and believe there will be no glaring errors moving forward. It's a bit hard to do that if many of the people who made those decisions are still making decisions at the company and their bad choices are being highlighted.

    3. Re:See, the thing is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder if it has more to do with the sale to Oracle that has not been finalized.

      If you're selling your car, you don't want your wife coming out and telling the guy why you're getting rid of it before he hands you the cash.

      But he wasn't pointing out flaws, he was pointing out what caused it.

      If you are selling a car and the other guy sees it doesn't start, you really want to explain "It is because owners forgot to tank gas" (ie. blame the current and old management, something that the new one will easily change) rather than letting him guess reasons for it...

    4. Re:See, the thing is... by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 1

      Oh, so you're saying this was marketing and PR? Why on earth would someone who is "Senior Director of Corporate Development" think that this was even a remotely good idea, or it was anywhere within his remit to document for people, including Oracle's benefits, the reasons behind Sun's performance (in his own opinion, of course)?

    5. Re:See, the thing is... by Bakkster · · Score: 1

      Company leadership would like people to think that the company has no failures. Ridiculous, of course, but there you have it.

      Not just people, investors. Customers avoid a product based on the product. Investors will run if there are systematic problems, and that's the big worry. Since he was pointing out the organizational issues causing the products to be bad, I don't blame them for being skittish.

      --
      Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
    6. Re:See, the thing is... by afabbro · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sun had to sell and surprisingly it had to do with Notes.

      Yuck, yuck yuck.

      He means notes as in debt, folks. It's not a bad article, but he could have just said "debt" instead of making us think he meant Lotus Notes.

      --
      Advice: on VPS providers
    7. Re:See, the thing is... by Skuld-Chan · · Score: 1

      You would have thought in their decline from 200 billion to 7 billion someone would have said at some point - hey what the heck is going on here?

  3. I added his blog to my RSS feeds just for that... by assantisz · · Score: 1

    I hope he'll find another way to speak up. Maybe at a later time. I would be looking forward to it. It was an interesting read.

  4. Reason #2 by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 0, Troll

    2. It ain't called Slowaris for nothing.

    1. Re:Reason #2 by getclear · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Sorry, this is soooo flamebait, but...Your an idiot

    2. Re:Reason #2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He may be an idiot, but he's also right (at least in this case).

    3. Re:Reason #2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wouldn't you post Anonymous if you were going to flamebait off a troll?

    4. Re:Reason #2 by lgw · · Score: 1

      A few year ago, my team found that we could get significant performance increases (as much as 3x for our mix of Oracle and filesystem-heavy app) by replacing Solaris with Linux on the Sun hardware we bought. Slowlaris indeed (though I have no idea how representative our workload was of anything else). Management wouldn't go for it, course - they paid for Solaris so by God we were going to use Solaris.

      Your an idiot

      Classic.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    5. Re:Reason #2 by clampolo · · Score: 4, Funny

      Mod me a troll for saying this, but it's the truth so I don't care.

      I went to college with one of the current Solaris kernel developers. This was one of the dirtiest people I've ever met. This guy washed himself at most once a week. There was one summer day when I left my dorm room and a I saw some people pissed off down the hall. I started walking towards them when this crippling stench hit me in the face. It was coming from that guy's room. He smelled so awful that everyone in the same alley as that guy's room was enraged by the stench!

      One time I went to take a shower but that guy was in the adjoining shower. His underwear was on a bench. It was the most repulsive thing I had ever seen. The thing had a brown crust on the back and a yellow crust on the front. I'm surprised anyone could walk around in those things without them making a crackling noise.

      With the people that Sun hires it is not at all surprising the company is going tits up.

    6. Re:Reason #2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tech stuff attracts some strange and eccentric people, no doubt. I can almost guarantee that he works from home, so he isn't currently stinking out all his co-workers at Sun. But aligning a shower fearing kernel development geek with the failure of the whole company??? Hyperbole. You could say the same thing about Jonathan and his silly ponytail. Or Scott McNealy's tie abhorrence.

  5. This seems like a valid guess, though .... by King_TJ · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As the original article says, "There may be Securities and Exchange-related reasons for shuttering the posts."

    1. Re:This seems like a valid guess, though .... by TheSpoom · · Score: 3, Funny

      And our number one failure of Sun:

      [REDACTED]

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
  6. Banking on Open Source to Save The Company by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So, Schwartz was an nay-sayer on the topic of Open Source for years, and then decided that Open Source would save the company and started promoting it. Open Source is really cool, but it wasn't ever going to save Sun. I can't even begin to wonder how he thought it would.

    1. Re:Banking on Open Source to Save The Company by David+Gerard · · Score: 1

      It was a Hail Mary pass. It might not work, but it was certain nothing else would.

      --
      http://rocknerd.co.uk
  7. Somewhere in that list should be.... by randyest · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...failing to convince the federal government to give them billions of dollars. It's all the rage among business plans these days.

    --
    everything in moderation
    1. Re:Somewhere in that list should be.... by ClosedSource · · Score: 1

      Indirectly the government did give them billions through prosecuting MS.

    2. Re:Somewhere in that list should be.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Christ your stupid and I'm so sick of you idiots bashing this administration's efforts to clean up the mess left by that moron Bu$h. Seriously, get your head out of your ass and realzie that the only way to fix the economy that Bu$h broke is to spend government money (not YOUR money, GOVERNMENT money) to stimulate the economy. And, as you can plainly see if you bother to try, the economy is on the upswing thanks to Obama's clever spending strategy. It's a fact that the economy will be improved by the actions underway, and as soon as the increased tax rates kick in and the inevitable revenue increases hit the coffers, we'll see not only an economic boom like when Clinton was in charge, but a new era of propsperity for all.

    3. Re:Somewhere in that list should be.... by jcr · · Score: 1

      not YOUR money, GOVERNMENT money

      Government is not a productive enterprise. There's no such thing as "government money", it's all taxed, borrowed or inflated away from the people who earn it.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    4. Re:Somewhere in that list should be.... by tyrione · · Score: 1

      not YOUR money, GOVERNMENT money

      Government is not a productive enterprise. There's no such thing as "government money", it's all taxed, borrowed or inflated away from the people who earn it.

      -jcr

      The same goes for businesses. The medium of exchange has no intrinsic value. We created an artificial market to get off the barter system.

    5. Re:Somewhere in that list should be.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Top 10
      1. Failing to understand the 'Attention Deficit Economy'(ADE). SEC rules, designed to discourage fraud, punish companies which spend too much on R & D, it's not enough to convince your customers you have ADD by swapping product names every 3 months, you actually have to behave as a wildly successful startup during a bubble, every 3 months.
      2. Failing to be a monopoly. Sun may have thought winning an antitrust case against a monopoly should suffice, but it is much, much better to be a monopoly and let other's spend their money trying to prove that you are.
      3. Failing to make a convincing case the economy can't survive without you (as the auto companies, banks and certain insurance companies have.)
      4. Failing to be 'too big to fail'
      5. Being overly focused on actual products and technology engineering when the zeitgeist dictated that successful companies focus on complex derivatives, bubble assets and fraud.
      6. Contributing more to the Linux stack than all other companies put together and then changing their stock name from SUNW to JAVA when it should've been LINX.
      7. Believing the 'build a better mousetrap' theory, technology is never enough in an age where such a high percentage of the population is technically illiterate. The world is littered with examples of excellent technology shunned by the majority.
      8. Late 90s 'road apple' workstations which were a bad combination of the worst of a slogging PC compatible bus with expensive SPARC chips and gave rise to the 'slowaris' slang.
      9. Failing to get these and other hardware dumped in the 1990s by failed dot coms classified as troubled assets under the federal TARP program.
      10. Overall their biggest failing is that they weren't sufficiently evil.
    6. Re:Somewhere in that list should be.... by jcr · · Score: 1

      The same goes for businesses

      The key difference between businesses and governments when it comes to accumulating money, is that businesses obtain money from people who give it to them voluntarily. (Excepting of course, those businesses which use the government to prohibit competition for their products, or even get direct transfers of stolen money like the current round of bailouts.)

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
  8. Blame Marketing... by NecroPuppy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It's rarely the engineers who screw things up like that.

    It's the suits who don't understand something and then write press releases / marketting material on their lack of understanding.

    I fondly remember my (then) boss at my first job out of university going, in one day, down to marketting to explain to them how they'd just killed a two million dollar product line because they couldn't be arsed to call first, and then down to HR to explain that they couldn't shorten a job listing to "five years programming experience in [2 year old web technology]" from "five years programming experience and one year in [2 year old web technology]".

    Of course, this was the same man who would go fishing in the middle of a lake (and cell dead zone) during every customer live date, so he didn't have to listen to them complain about the fonts or colors.

    --
    I like you, Stuart. You're not like everyone else, here, at Slashdot.
    1. Re:Blame Marketing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where does he work now? Sounds like it might be a good place to send a resume. :)

    2. Re:Blame Marketing... by downix · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I remember in 1996 seeing a job posting requiring "5 years Java experience"... I wonder if it is the same job posting you are referring to.

      --
      Karma Whoring for Fun and Profit.
    3. Re:Blame Marketing... by Jason+Levine · · Score: 5, Interesting

      My own marketing story: I used to work for Windows Magazine. We were a pretty successful publication, or so we thought. One day, everyone was called into a meeting (never a good sign) by our corporate marketing department. They literally told us: "You guys have a great product. Wonderful writing and content. Phenomenal staff. But we don't know how to sell your magazine. So we're killing it." Yes, because *they* couldn't figure out what to do with *our* great content, *they* decided that we needed to be fired.

      Luckily, I survived that as the shut-down magazine went Dot-Com-only (WinMag.com). We figured we were pretty safe since we were the biggest traffic draw our company had. But then came an impromptu phone meeting (again, never a good sign) during which our corporate overlords told us that they had come to a decision. Instead of producing their own content, they would pull other people's content and show that. How successful were they? Well, when's the last time you visited Techweb.com? Personally, I never visit it and even had to Google it to make sure I had the name right!

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    4. Re:Blame Marketing... by Smidge207 · · Score: 1

      I remember in 1996 seeing a job posting requiring "5 years Java experience"... I wonder if it is the same job posting you are referring to.

      I read the same one. Turns out they left off the decimal point. Should've read .5 years experience. ;-)

      =Smidge=

      --
      Is it just my observation, or is eldavojohn an idiot?
    5. Re:Blame Marketing... by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

      Sadly, stuff like that is quite common in job postings, for the reasons stated above - the hiring manager's requirements get filtered by HR.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    6. Re:Blame Marketing... by mikael · · Score: 1

      so he didn't have to listen to them complain about the fonts or colors.

      Didn't the software support personal configuration files so that users could select their own default fonts and colors? There is nothing more annoying that having fonts that constantly
      change between updates according to the personal preferences of whoever put together this months bug-fix update. A font like "Battlestar Galactica" may look cool when rendered with a chrome finish, but it doesn't go down to well when sending this months progress report to the CEO.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    7. Re:Blame Marketing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh yeah there is nothing more anoying. I mean it is not like data migration and the production processes have any actual meaning for the company, and you are under very high pressure to get everything up and running at all.

      Honestly, if on a going live someone complains about the font I would chop his fucking head off and take a dump in his neck.

    8. Re:Blame Marketing... by bdh · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In 1985, I'd spent about a year and a half doing contract PC work with various versions of Lattice C (2.0 bad, 2.01 better, 2.10 really bad, 2.11 bad, 2.12 good) and was looking for a new contract.

      Two local shops were advertising for "DOS based C programmers" at the time, so I applied.

      The first one rejected me because they were an Microsoft C shop, and all my experience was with Lattice. The fact that Microsoft was simply reselling Lattice C under their own name seemed to be a revelation to them.

      The second shop was even more amusing. Despite being impressed with my credentials, all my experience was unfortunately on PC based, and, as the interviewer patiently explained to me as if he was speaking to a child, their shop in question had no PCs, they had (drum roll) the new IBM XT computers.

      The frightening thing is that in those days HR (or Personel, as it was known back in the day) didn't interview tech positions, because they knew they didn't understand it. So the tech manager did the interviewing. So it was the management types, the people who would have been my immediate superiors, than didn't know the difference between a PC and an XT. For you youngun's: the XT has a hard drive, 7 bus slots instead of 5, and a 120 watt power supply rather than 63.5 watts. None of which really makes a difference to a C coder, but there you go.

      I didn't get an offer from either shop. Of course, I didn't really want one. Working at places where I'd report to managers like that really wasn't a big draw.

    9. Re:Blame Marketing... by bjourne · · Score: 1

      If Sun's marketing were so bad, then Java wouldn't be the worlds most used programming language today. I think they have done a bang up job with that. Remember all those job ads from 97-99 sometime requiring 5+ years of Java experience? That's successful marketing.

      Java wasn't and isn't something revolutionary but they managed to convince every PHB in the world to believe that. From a technical perspective, there is nothing special about the language. In almost all situations where it is used there are better languages and technologies to use. But they aren't and Java is deployed virtually everywhere and on a few hundred million handsets to boot.

      IMHO, Sun's doom was that they were completely unable to monetize Java. For a company it doesn't matter how successful your products are if you are unable to make money on them and they failed to do that.

    10. Re:Blame Marketing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Marketers can be a very diplomatic bunch. They won't tell you to your face that nobody values your writing and content enough to support your paycheck. Whether or not you believe you're "phenomenal" doesn't matter at that point. What matters is that they're sending you home without a job - so instead of getting into a meaningless discussion about the quality of the work, they give you a little pat on the back as you walk out the door.

      It's win-win!

    11. Re:Blame Marketing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If Sun's marketing were so bad, then Java wouldn't be the worlds most used programming language today.

      Java isn't the world's most used programming language. But I guess their marketing department convinced you that it is, so they can't be total failures.

      But the marketing is pointless for a produce that doesn't provide any revenue.

    12. Re:Blame Marketing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Turns out they left off the decimal point. Should've read .5 years experience.

      This is HR we're talking about. They probably deleted it because they thought it was a misplaced period.

    13. Re:Blame Marketing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      to be fair I never heard of winmag.com either.

      Read Joel on Software about this. This is a common fallacy with programmers and techies. They don't realize how much overhead and how many dependancies there are in even the most simple product. Its a common belief that the best product will always win out based just on its merits when in reality there is an entire ecosystem involved.

      How much did it cost to make that content? Having your guys there making the content costs a LOT more money than just pulling it from somewhere else. What about your entire support structure? IT management (contrary to opinion they are a major asset to ensuring things work, hence why many original developers in OSS projects end up shifting into an overseer role to keep things flowing and to balance differing opinions) sales and marketting have time and cost associated as well, with your additional costs what target number do they need to hit to make it worthwhile? Remember, breaking even doesn't cut it, it has to be sufficiently profitable to not only cover current costs but to also provide extra resources for ROI and the setup investment and potential future investment. They probably looked at the numbers and realized dispite being the biggest draw you were costing them more money in the long run.

  9. Reason #4 by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    4. Hey, let's give everything away for free! That'll bring in the profits.

  10. Correction by Hognoxious · · Score: 3, Funny

    Dan Baigent was senior director of corporate development with Sun Microsystems.

    FTFY.

          L.E.

     

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  11. Why wouldn't they block it? by S7urm · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't see why people would think that Sun, or Oracle for that matter, would want their ineptness broadcast to the world, when the only benefit from doing so would be for others (their competitors especially) to learn from said mistakes. It would be like them saying "Hey IBM, here is a list of what NOT to do in the future." I seriously doubt Oracle would enjoy giving people a play book of things to avoid, as opposed to hoping those mistakes WERE repeated. If anything they should create a list of "mistakes" that they've invented that would help them in regards to their competition reading it, as opposed to hurting themselves.

    --
    "This is the value of a summer spent and a winter earned"
    1. Re:Why wouldn't they block it? by Machtyn · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Sorry about making my response political, but your post reminds me of:

      I hate Bush, so I want the war in Iraq to fail.
      I hate Obama, so I want the economy to fail.

      It's the whole crab pulling the other down to prevent escape from certain death. Why is it so hard for people to grasp the concept of failure and death? If a company or system is failing, let it die, if the concept was good, it will be reborn. Let its mistakes be revealed so that we can all learn and grow from them. People will not be able to grow and improve if we all keep making the same mistakes over and over.

      History, it's not just a school topic.

      /me avoided from getting too philosophical about death, resurrection, etc... whew.

    2. Re:Why wouldn't they block it? by anlprb · · Score: 1

      You say this as if there is no one as smart as the blogger employed at IBM... I think they know all of Sun's mistakes already. Sun is the only one who doesn't yet...
      http://www.save-solaris.org/schwartz-2006-08-18.html

      --

      One Token Ring to Rule them All, One Search Engine to Find Them, One WAN to bring them in, and TCP/IP Bind them...
    3. Re:Why wouldn't they block it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I want Obama's policies to fail, because if his policies succeed, the economy will fail.

  12. Reason #5 by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 1, Funny

    5. Turns out Gosling preferred tea.

  13. wishful thinking by a lot of us by Red+Flayer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How long will it take corporate overlords until they finally realize that broad level censorship and trying to control the message are far more harmful than just becoming part of the discourse?

    Until it's demonstrably true?

    There's a reason so many large institutions want to "control the message", and despite our best wishes to the contrary, it's because controlling the message works. Yes, there are downsides, such as the risk of Streisand effect, but quashing off-message discussion is a proven strategy.

    Managing public relations, and managing your brand, is a useful tool. You're living in a dream world if you think it isn't. That's not to say it's not important to be aware of, and to learn from, institutional shortcomings... but to allow employees to broadcast them far and wide is doing nothing but hurting your brand.

    --
    "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    1. Re:wishful thinking by a lot of us by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most consumers (and, probably, long-term investors) would consider broadcasting a company's huge institutional failures a good thing, however. It helps them to know who's fucking them the most.

      In fact, I would go so far as to say that if your brand can't survive the truth being known, then it damn well shouldn't. That's not to say that bad PR generated from materially inconsequential things shouldn't be avoided, but rather if a company is busy creating fairy-tales about itself (e.g., Enron) it is better for society that that company should fail and fail at the earliest possible date.

    2. Re:wishful thinking by a lot of us by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      That's not to say that bad PR generated from materially inconsequential things shouldn't be avoided, but rather if a company is busy creating fairy-tales about itself (e.g., Enron) it is better for society that that company should fail and fail at the earliest possible date.

      I agree with you 100%. However, from the company's perspective, that's a bad thing. And as we all know, actors tend to act in their own self-interest. That's the foundation of our economic system, for good or bad.

      For a market to work efficiently, information should be available for all. That's not the case, however, which is one reason why our economy doesn't function as efficiently as it should.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    3. Re:wishful thinking by a lot of us by lgw · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree with you 100%. However, from the company's perspective, that's a bad thing. And as we all know, actors tend to act in their own self-interest. That's the foundation of our economic system, for good or bad.

      That's the foundation of human nature, for good or bad. Our economic system is based on dealing with that reality (as opposed to hoping it might become otherwise).

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    4. Re:wishful thinking by a lot of us by Red+Flayer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's the foundation of human nature, for good or bad. Our economic system is based on dealing with that reality (as opposed to hoping it might become otherwise).

      Yet an individual human is more likely to recognize the personal benefit of acting (erstwhile) altruistically. Human nature includes personal sacrifice for the benefit of others. This is not as common in corporate entities, which our economic system depends upon.

      It's important to note that many actors in our economy are not humans, and so applying human nature to them yields false conclusions.

      This is the same mistake Greenspan made with the concept of self-regulating banks. He assumed the banks would self-regulate since it was in the banks' long-term interests to do so; he depended on human nature (self-interest) to keep the banks from borking the whole economy. Instead, the actors in the economy (the banks) took actions that benefited the decision-makers (upper management) at the banks. So, an economy dependent on self-interest of the actors ran into trouble -- the actors in the economy didn't act out of pure self-interest, they were subverted by indivuduals who stood to gain.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    5. Re:wishful thinking by a lot of us by lgw · · Score: 1

      Corporations are made of people, who each act (largely in their self interest). The divergence between A CEO acting in his personal self interest, and in that of the stockholders of the corporation, is a real problem thses days IMO (and apparantly you agree).

      But to think of corporations as "actors" is an oversimplification, and can't explain the failures of Enron, AIG, etc. It's not that e.g. the banks were actors not acting in their own self interest, it that the banks aren't actors - their executives are, and a misalignment between the intres of the executives and of the banks leads to the sort of problems that we've seen.

      In the case of the problem banks, it was very specifically a culture that rewarded bets of the form: 99% of the time we make 1% extra profit, 1% of the time we lose everything. Because the immediate result, not the accumulated risk, was rewarded we got into quite a mes when that "1% event" hit.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  14. #1 Reason for Sun's Demise... by Gary+W.+Longsine · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Employees that are so stupid they think this kind of stunt is OK.

    --
    If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
    1. Re:#1 Reason for Sun's Demise... by eln · · Score: 1

      On the bright side, Oracle provides free soda pop to their employees, so it should be smooth sailing from here on out.

      Employees that are so stupid they think this kind of stunt is OK.

      What do you have against free soda pop? Are you a dentist?

    2. Re:#1 Reason for Sun's Demise... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 2, Funny

      He might be a marketing hack. They demand but never get free blood delivered to their desk. It's infuriating that everyone else gets free soda.

    3. Re:#1 Reason for Sun's Demise... by Rakarra · · Score: 0

      When you start out with "Employees that are so stupid" you'd better provide some pretty hard evidence to back it up. It's a fairly insulting statement, and while I personally wouldn't have bothered to mod it down, I don't think it was undeserving. Sure, insults are as common as oxygen on the Internet but that's a pretty low standard to go by.

    4. Re:#1 Reason for Sun's Demise... by AndrewNeo · · Score: 1

      Why on earth would dentists be against soda pop? Without it, they'd be out of a job!

    5. Re:#1 Reason for Sun's Demise... by f0dder · · Score: 1

      He's probably a sugarcane farmer.

    6. Re:#1 Reason for Sun's Demise... by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      Most dentists like their patients to have good teeth. They aren't in it for the exploitation.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    7. Re:#1 Reason for Sun's Demise... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If that were the case he would secretly be all for it, because it brings him "customers".

    8. Re:#1 Reason for Sun's Demise... by Maniacal · · Score: 1

      By "Most" do you mean 4 out of 5? rimshot

      --
      MG
    9. Re:#1 Reason for Sun's Demise... by ImYourVirus · · Score: 1

      Pure cane soda:

      http://www.jonessoda.com/

      It's pretty good too...

      --
      Why is common sense called that if it's not common?
    10. Re:#1 Reason for Sun's Demise... by imhennessy · · Score: 1

      they're in it for the pain.

      --
      Like to brew? Want to talk about it? Brattlebrew: groups.yahoo.com/group/brattlebrew
    11. Re:#1 Reason for Sun's Demise... by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      Wait, doctor, I'm not numb!
      Shut up, hold on, here I come!

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
  15. Sun was never worth 200B by joelgrimes · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The summary makes a leap of logic. The company was never really worth 200 billion except in the eyes of the guy that bought his shares at $253.88 back in September of 2000.

    So the loss of value isn't strictly due to mistakes the company made. The stock market crash accounts for most of that drop.

    1. Re:Sun was never worth 200B by portscan · · Score: 1

      exactly. in fairness, the buyout price is in the neighborhood of 1/2 of it's post-crash valuation. and pretty much all of that loss in valuation came in 2008, hardly a banner year for equities. as for the business missteps, well who can say how long those have been festering. Sun probably was drinking the kool-aid and believing itself to be the $200bn infallible titan of industry that it was reported to be in 2000. pride commeth before the fall.

    2. Re:Sun was never worth 200B by Dogtanian · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The summary makes a leap of logic. The company was never really worth 200 billion except in the eyes of the guy that bought his shares at $253.88 back in September of 2000. So the loss of value isn't strictly due to mistakes the company made. The stock market crash accounts for most of that drop.

      This is akin to people going "OMG! I lost 30% of my pension" or "I just lost £30,000 on my house's value" or whatever; yes, if you measure it from the ridiculous high of the market you "lost" that much, but really, what was it over the medium to long term? The only people who genuinely lose out are those who bought in at the peak of the market.

      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    3. Re:Sun was never worth 200B by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the people LIVING on pension.

    4. Re:Sun was never worth 200B by rackserverdeals · · Score: 2, Informative

      Post dot-com failure Scott McNealy said:

      But two years ago we were selling at 10 times revenues when we were at $64. At 10 times revenues, to give you a 10-year payback, I have to pay you 100% of revenues for 10 straight years in dividends. That assumes I can get that by my shareholders. That assumes I have zero cost of goods sold, which is very hard for a computer company. That assumes zero expenses, which is really hard with 39,000 employees. That assumes I pay no taxes, which is very hard. And that assumes you pay no taxes on your dividends, which is kind of illegal. And that assumes with zero R&D for the next 10 years, I can maintain the current revenue run rate. Now, having done that, would any of you like to buy my stock at $64? Do you realize how ridiculous those basic assumptions are? You don't need any transparency. You don't need any footnotes. What were you thinking?

      Wall St was unrealistic during the dot-com era, at least in their advice to others.

      Unfortunately McNealy didn't seem to realize there was a bubble either and didn't react to the crash quick enough. Sun might have borrowed too much during the dot com era too.

      --
      Dual Opteron < $600
    5. Re:Sun was never worth 200B by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 1

      This comes from how stock prices are calculated. The stock is valued at the price of the last trade. If one person buys 1 share of stock at $1 higher than the previous trade, and there are a billion shares, then the company's value just jumped by $1,000,000,000. But that value jump is only real if everyone keeps buying/selling at that price. It's a system of imaginary money that massively magnifies small fluctuations.

      --
      Not a sentence!
    6. Re:Sun was never worth 200B by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      Apple did manage to overtake its dot.com peak. I believe it was the only tech company that did. I guess that is because it was a pretty lousy company back in 2000, and in a much better shape now.

    7. Re:Sun was never worth 200B by rackserverdeals · · Score: 1

      Apple didn't have any significant bump during the dot-com years compared to other tech companies.

      --
      Dual Opteron < $600
    8. Re:Sun was never worth 200B by jonbryce · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you use a logarithmic scale, they had as much of a bump as anyone else.

      On the linear scale it looks flatter because of the huge pre-dot.com slump when they lost their market leading position to Microsoft and the PC manufacturers.

    9. Re:Sun was never worth 200B by rackserverdeals · · Score: 1

      At the peak of the dot-com era, AAPL was trading about 5 times pre bubble price, Sun was more than 20x, Oracle was about 10x. Yahoo about 30x. Dell around 50x

      Throw in all the IPOs that went nowhere and that little bump AAPL had is not significant.

      --
      Dual Opteron < $600
  16. I see parallels to Apple by assantisz · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Apple, during those times before Jobs came back, that is. Look at the server line-up. Too many CPU options (AMD, Intel, UltraSPARC T line, UltraSPARC IV, SPARC64), too many OS options (Solaris, Linux, Windows), f'ed up renaming and branding attempts of Sun's software stack, very confusing model numbers/names for their servers, getting rid of the highly popular US-IIIi entry-level server line, etc. etc. I've been using Sun servers for a very long time and have been a proponent but the last couple years have been very frustrating with them. They never fixed the performance issue the online support site has, for example. I think Schwartz was not a good choice to lead Sun after McNealy left. There is one good thing that came out of Sun in the last couple years, though: open-sourcing of Solaris.

    1. Re:I see parallels to Apple by multipartmixed · · Score: 2, Funny

      > I think Schwartz was not a good choice to lead Sun after McNealy left.
      > There is one good thing that came out of Sun in the last couple years, though: open-sourcing of Solaris.

      I think Schwartz is a closet hippie (witness the pony-tail). He snuck into Sun pretending to be an MBA-bearing preppie, and when he got there, he looked around and said, "SHIT! We'd better open source everything we can before somebody buys us and locks all this great software up forever!"

      --

      Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
    2. Re:I see parallels to Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      pretending to be an MBA-bearing preppie

      Trust me. He's just as clueless as any other MBA poser.

    3. Re:I see parallels to Apple by swordgeek · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think you've got Schwartz exactly backwards. He's pretending to be a cool open-source tech/hippie sort, but in fact is another two-faced incompetent middle-manager who should be left to shuffle paperwork (or alternatively, pick bottles in the alleys).

      That pony tail is a desperate attempt to fit in with the tech staff of Sun's customers. It never worked.

      --

      "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
    4. Re:I see parallels to Apple by Big+Jojo · · Score: 1

      I think Schwartz is a closet hippie (witness the pony-tail). He snuck into Sun pretending to be an MBA-bearing preppie...

      Actually he came as part of the purchase of "Lighthouse Design" (?) which wrote some GUI tools that Sun liked enough to buy (and then obviously to kill). He was in Engineering ... but didn't exactly do anything except politicking. (IMNSHO.)

    5. Re:I see parallels to Apple by the_humeister · · Score: 1

      Uhm, IBM has boatloads of CPU options (POWER, PowerPC, x86, Itanium) and they've been doing pretty well.

    6. Re:I see parallels to Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think Schwartz was not a good choice to lead Sun after McNealy left.

      No... You think? Do you also think Java on the toaster isn't going to pan out, hindsight Nostradamus?

    7. Re:I see parallels to Apple by Corel · · Score: 1

      Yes, but that's always been IBM's thing. Sun's culture is entirely different and their hardware and software lineup has been extremely straight forward and not "fuzzy".

    8. Re:I see parallels to Apple by EMB+Numbers · · Score: 1

      I have crossed paths with Schwartz a few times, and my impression was that he is a technologist's technologist. He's one of the nerds. He fits in well when programmers get together for a beer. He can debate which Enterprise captan was best. I think he has had the pony tail for at least 15 years. He certainly recognizes great technology when he sees it. Did you know the MS Visio is a sad copy of Schwartz's Diagram!

      I have no idea what Schwartz'b business skills may be, but I don't think you can claim he is pretending to be a tech/hippie. I think it's more likely he pretended to be a CEO.

    9. Re:I see parallels to Apple by jcr · · Score: 1

      Did you know the MS Visio is a sad copy of Schwartz's Diagram!

      Did Schwartz tell you that he wrote Diagram?

      Lighthouse designs produced some very impressive NeXTSTEP apps in their day, but I never heard anyone there say that Scwartz wrote any code.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
  17. Why would they care at this point? by geoffrobinson · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Well, ego.

    But, really, who cares? Any right thinking person knows some mistakes were made. The deal with Oracle is done.

    --
    Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
    1. Re:Why would they care at this point? by pak9rabid · · Score: 1

      But, really, who cares? Any right thinking person knows some mistakes were made. The deal with Oracle is done.

      Those in the proverbial crosshair of potential litigation from Oracle?

  18. #7. Failure to understand Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I worked at Sun briefly. My office was across the corridor from a corner office CTO type. One day I overheard him ranting to someone, wondering 'why anyone would want to use Linux when they could be using Solaris -- that has everything -- instead.'

    I swear the guy was channeling Ken Olsen, when he said: "...the beauty of UNIX is it's simple, and the beauty of VMS is that it's all there."

    1. Re:#7. Failure to understand Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I understand Linux. I'm even an RHCE (from a few versions back).

      I still ask this question. It doesn't come from a lack of understanding of Linux, but an understanding of both Solaris and Linux, and enterprise environments.

      Open source Solaris MIGHT have improved it's image vs. Linux, but the real deal was getting behind Solaris x86 too late. That is where they really screwed up IMHO. It really should be the defacto x86 UNIX. Linux is, I'm sorry, a joke.

    2. Re:#7. Failure to understand Linux by ultrabot · · Score: 1

      I understand Linux. I'm even an RHCE (from a few versions back).

      ...

      That is where they really screwed up IMHO. It really should be the defacto x86 UNIX. Linux is, I'm sorry, a joke.

      It appears you don't really understand Linux at all.

      --
      Save your wrists today - switch to Dvorak
  19. Censorship? So what by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

    If I did the same thing at my company I would have simply been terminated.

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    1. Re:Censorship? So what by swordgeek · · Score: 1

      Maybe, maybe not. It depends on your contract, and the rules around using the company's "blog space." (wow, that's a terrible expression!)

      Sun has encouraged employees to speak their mind on blogs.sun.com. This is the sort of thing that should be (and was) tolerated.

      --

      "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
    2. Re:Censorship? So what by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      I can only speak for my own circumstances. And yes, we have been specifically warned from doing these sorts of things in company memos. Discussing internal things is generally a big no-no for regular employees. And at some companies it is even a no-no for executives and upper management.

      I cannot express them on my personal website either, has nothing to do with using the company blog for it.

      But yes, it appears Sun's open policies are going away or perhaps they were never really that open. You can say whatever you want, as long as it doesn't make us look too bad. That's a pretty typical attitude in the corporate world I've found.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
  20. Not the only one: Tim Bray by Kurt+Granroth · · Score: 5, Informative

    This isn't the only Sun censorship going on. Tim Bray (of XML fame, now Sun's Director of Web Tech) had a very insightful post on his 'ongoing' blog comparing Sun's strengths and weaknesses with Oracle's. It was up for all of a day before the lawyers stepped in and made him take it down.

    It was all in vain, of course -- caches and copies will beat redactions every time. Here's one copy:

    Us and Them

    Interesting stuff!

    1. Re:Not the only one: Tim Bray by SteeldrivingJon · · Score: 1

      This isn't the only Sun censorship going on. Tim Bray [wikipedia.org] (of XML fame, now Sun's Director of Web Tech) had a very insightful post on his 'ongoing' [tbray.org] blog comparing Sun's strengths and weaknesses with Oracle's. It was up for all of a day before the lawyers stepped in and made him take it down.

      Well, yeah. Bray should have the good sense to wait until the f'in merger closes.

      --
      September 2011: Looking for Cocoa/iOS work in Boston area Cocoa Programmer Quincy, MA
  21. Sun missed the x86 boat, yes by joib · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Ironically, a couple of decades ago they were sitting there with literally the keys to the realm in their hands, and they threw them away. Back in the late 80's they introduced the Sun386i workstation, featuring (drumroll..) Intel's 386 processor and a 386 port of SunOS. This was a proper preemptive multitasking OS with 32-bit virtual memory and a decent GUI, far ahead of Windows 2.x at the time. Not only that, it also had a functioning DOS emulator, allowing the machine to run MS-DOS programs. By focusing on x86, and selling SunOS/x86 for $50 or so they could have become the Microsoft of today.

    But, they weren't interested in playing the massive volumes with razor thin margins game of the PC world, thinking that the unix workstation market was insulated from the PC market. After all, PC's were for chumps running 1-2-3 and Wordperfect. So they introduced their own hardware, SPARC, and discontinued SunOS/x86. Of course, as TFA says, they re-entered the x86 game in 2002, but by then it was too little, too late.

    The failure to see the cost effectiveness afforded by the massive volumes of x86 chips Intel was turning out is all the more damning considering the main reason they had become the dominant unix workstation vendor wasn't that their hardware or software was leagues ahead of their competitors, but rather that they were cheaper.

    1. Re:Sun missed the x86 boat, yes by xleeko · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But, they weren't interested in playing the massive volumes with razor thin margins game of the PC world, thinking that the unix workstation market was insulated from the PC market. After all, PC's were for chumps running 1-2-3 and Wordperfect. So they introduced their own hardware, SPARC, and discontinued SunOS/x86.

      Yet another example that any large, established, company will never knowingly introduce a new product that might damage the market for an existing product. That is why giving billions to one or two large companies to develop TECHNOLOGY X never seems to work. If you gave the same amount of money to companies with less than 50 people, you would have 12 different versions of TECHNOLOGY X within a year.

      End rant.

    2. Re:Sun missed the x86 boat, yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The failure to see the cost effectiveness afforded by the massive volumes of x86 chips Intel was turning out is all the more damning considering the main reason they had become the dominant unix workstation vendor wasn't that their hardware or software was leagues ahead of their competitors, but rather that they were cheaper.

      Funny, while I wasn't buying hardware back then, I don't remember SUNs being that much cheaper than Apollos or DG M88K boxes. Sure SGI MIPS boxes were more expensive because of all the 3D hardware but they were going for a niche market. I think SUN had mind share from early mover advantage with SUN 2s and SUN 3s, and then I think the SPARC speeds initially scaled better than a lot of that early competition. Another factor was that their resellers didn't seem to under-spec for proposals as badly as some of their competitors, so they had better customer referrals. They weren't cheaper until they had to cut prices when they had to go up against IBM Power, HP-PA and DEC Alpha boxes that, performance-wise, were stomping all over the contemporary versions of SPARC.

      Unless you're talking about them out-competing minis like Burroughs, DG Novas and DEC Vaxen? But that was like shooting fish in a barrel. Nothing survived the attack of the Killer micros

    3. Re:Sun missed the x86 boat, yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      literally the keys to the realm in their hands

      Stop trying to destroy this word.

    4. Re:Sun missed the x86 boat, yes by Big+Jojo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Ironically, a couple of decades ago they were sitting there with literally the keys to the realm in their hands, and they threw them away. Back in the late 80's they introduced the Sun386i workstation, featuring (drumroll..) Intel's 386 processor and a 386 port of SunOS. This was a proper preemptive multitasking OS with 32-bit virtual memory and a decent GUI, far ahead of Windows 2.x at the time. Not only that, it also had a functioning DOS emulator, allowing the machine to run MS-DOS programs. By focusing on x86, and selling SunOS/x86 for $50 or so they could have become the Microsoft of today.

      The Sun386i product line was what got Sun onto huge quantities of financial market desktops, and got Sun beyond Engineering/Server markets in a major way.

      And they were set to be the first to market with (drumroll) the Sun486i workstation, which worked even better. In fact it out-performed the first SPARC generation... can't have that! They invested in SPARC to get founder Andy Bechtolsheim to come back! (He wanted to design CPU chips, and that wasn't really practical at a company making primo commodity-based systems.)

      But, they weren't interested in playing the massive volumes with razor thin margins game of the PC world, thinking that the unix workstation market was insulated from the PC market. After all, PC's were for chumps running 1-2-3 and Wordperfect.

      But the Sun386i was a workstation, not a PC. The big apps were CAD tools and financial analysis packages. One reason it was popular at customer sites was however that if you had one, you didn't need TWO honking big pieces of computer hardware at your desk. The same one could handle all that PC stuff (which you needed regularly) as well as the hefty stuff (which you needed constantly).

      The real issues with x86 were political ... sometimes masquerading as strategic. It was developed on the East cost, not the west. Keeping Andy; not having to deal with the fact that the engineering culture on the west coast was aggressively blind to a lot of issues. Wanting to see themselves as Sun Gods. Even the desire to avoid investment in DOS/Windows compatibility, despite the customer demand for it.

      So they introduced their own hardware, SPARC, and discontinued SunOS/x86.

      They gave the Sun386i product line a nice lingering death, though, then more or less excised it from their corporate histories. That all the wood behind one arrow buzz-phrase, widely used inside Sun for a while, was all about getting rid of non-SPARC product lines. And stifling dissent.

      Another factor was that the Sun386i products had a different -- and more Apple-influenced -- design approach. Maybe it was realistic to focus on higher margins for a while. But the level of internal censorchip it took to ignore everything the '386i stood for (and Sun itself once stood for) ... was intensely damaging over the long term. A lot of upper level Sun engineers and managers internalized those battles so deeply they just kept blinders on.

    5. Re:Sun missed the x86 boat, yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microsoft succeeded by selling software that worked for people who lived in the real world whereas SUN were only interested in selling to worthy nerds. They ran out of customers.

    6. Re:Sun missed the x86 boat, yes by atrimtab · · Score: 2, Informative

      We used Sun386i's for commodity trading workstations. They were fantastic. You could run multiple MS-DPS instances with all the MS-DOS applications. You could even use PC hardware with box DOS and SunOS simultaneously. All while running large trading apps in SunOSin Sunview or X11. (But you had to build your own X11.)

      Adding a parallel printer interface to a Sun386i was a $50 card at Fry's. It cost at least $800 on any other Sun product at the time. Almost any ISA hardware could be made to work if you could get interface documentation.

      We wanted Sun486is! But it became clear after the SPARCStation was introduced that Sun was never going to release the Sun486i or any Intel based systems. Our company never bought another Sun product. The Sun486i was faster than any SPARC offering at the time, while the Sun386i was about the same as a SPARCstation in performance.

      For a while the Sun386i was Sun's fastest Workstation.

      I also wrote a Sunview/video driver on the Sun386i for the DOS version CAD/CAM program. The driver allowed the Sun386i to use the DOS version of that program like the SunOS version that cost 8 times as much, but ran at about the same speed. If the accelerated graphics card was added to a Sun386i, my DOS version ran faster than the SunOS version.

      When Linux arrived and had a groundswell of first hobbiest and then developer support it was clear that Sun was doomed unless they adapted their offerings to Linux. They never really did and then opened Solaris way too late for anyone to care.

      --
      Facebook is billions of individual "Skinner Boxes." And if you use it you are the pigeon!
    7. Re:Sun missed the x86 boat, yes by joib · · Score: 1

      But the Sun386i was a workstation, not a PC.

      Sure, I agree. My point was that by taking x86 as the strategic platform rather than SPARC they could have taken advantage of the economies of scale of x86, and thanks to the DOS compatibility they even had a window of opportunity to take on Microsoft on the desktop before MS got their act together with NT.

      Of course, ultimately the x86 commodification of the workstation, low-end, and mid-range server markets would have forced them to reduce HW prices in order to compete with the vacuum cleaner salespeople (Compaq, Dell & their ilk). In such a scenario I suppose they could have kept their edge in the higher end x86 server market, say, by designing SMP chipsets and so forth. And also by focusing on software & services; I believe had they chosen x86 back then in the late 80's they would not only easily have won the "Unix wars", but the unix slice of the pie would be much bigger than it is now.

      As for the rest of your comment, I didn't realize the killing of the x86 line was so political, and by the sound of it, painful. Thanks for sharing that piece of insight.

    8. Re:Sun missed the x86 boat, yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting. I agree.

      Slight change of industry, same topic:

      I am not a fan of the US auto industry. Frankly, Ford, GM and Chrysler make shit cars, when compared to what the European and Asian car makers make. Compare a VW or Audi or Toyota/Honda to any US auto maker and the decision is clear, you buy the German car or the Japanese car.

      And yet, despite your insightful comments (which bizarrely for Slashdot have been moderated correctly as insightful), a shed load of cash has been pumped into all 3 US auto companies. Chrysler is now bankrupt, in Chapter 11. GM will possibly end up there in 30 days time.

      If Chrysler is resurrected it will be courtesy of Fiat, a European car company that understand small cars and diesel powertrains (but also owns Ferrari and Maserati sports car companies and a whole lot more). Fiat itself isn't an impressive name until you look at what they own and control.

      Far better to let all 3 US auto companies go bust but still use all that money used to prop them up to support some of your smaller companies that are doing revolutionary things with electric and hybrid vehicles, where the US arguably leads the way - although hopefully the design of these vehicles will be better (smaller, more efficient and better looking). For example, the Tesla (which is a Lotus sports car with an electric powertrain) is a great starting point, as are some of the others which I can't recall their names.

      Shame. Good money wasted on bad companies.

    9. Re:Sun missed the x86 boat, yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > while the Sun386i was about the same as a SPARCstation in performance

      No way. The very first SPARCstation 1 was a bit faster than the 386i. If you put a "RoadRacer" graphics card into the 386i then performance might have been similar, depending on whether you ran SunView or XNeWS. But not too many people ever got a RoadRacer. . .

      The 486i was indeed faster than the SPARCstation 1, and probably even the 1+, I can't remember. But a SPARCstation 2 was definitely faster than a 486i. But when did the 2 come out, 1991? I was playing around with a 486i in early 1990. . .

      > For a while the Sun386i was Sun's fastest Workstation.

      For a short time before the SPARCstation 1 was released, yes.

      The other comments people made about the x86i line being killed for political, East vs. West. . . all true, unfortunately.

      Just another instance of disruptive tech, Christensen's Innovator's Dilemma and all that. Sun should have spun off the East group into a subsidiary and let them go for it.

    10. Re:Sun missed the x86 boat, yes by Skuld-Chan · · Score: 1

      With one minor problem - it cost almost $8000 as I recall.

    11. Re:Sun missed the x86 boat, yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My mistake - $2400, I must have been thinking of some Sparc workstation.

    12. Re:Sun missed the x86 boat, yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...

      all the wood behind one arrow

      ...

      The more things change, the more they remain the same.

      Today, it's ZFS.

      ZFS is nice. It's got some great ideas.

      But performance-wise, ZFS sucks the sweat off of SAM/QFS's balls. And SAM/QFS is a full HSM that also does multiple copies and checksumming, AND automatic tape archive/backup.

      Oh, and a whole lot of enterprise customers who pay a lot of money to use it. Something no one can say about ZFS, even with all its promise.

      But Sun's ZFS zealots are too blinded by their new shiny.

    13. Re:Sun missed the x86 boat, yes by mzs · · Score: 1

      Wow there are some great replies here, I don't know where to reply, so I will just do it up here. My father started a consulting/engineering/drafting company in 1988. I was enamored with Sun3s at the time and really was impressed by what I was reading about the Sun4s. I heard about the Sun386i and told my father about it. He contacted Sun and got a quote for almost $10K per machine. This was for a beefy one that had a very high res accelerated 8-bit display, 16MB RAM and 130 MB or so of disk. The Sun sales guy looked into some stuff and got back to him that WP, L 123, and AT dBase would run fine in what did they call it DOS/vx or something like that but not AD AutoCAD due to how video was handled but there was this new fangled program Pro/E that should be available within the year on i386. My father was not impressed at all with that. Then the sales guy suggested Sun3s and Pro/E and just getting an IBM AT clone or two for the other software. My father ended-up buying some beefy 386 boxes with lower res not accelerated cards, 80 MB HD, and 2 MB RAM for just under $4K. Don't even get me started on the prices for the Sun monitors, my father just got some very nice NEC ones that took BNC unlike the proprietary Sun connector.

      Also Sun was not particularly cheaper than any of the other big names back then. They were cheaper than IBM and VMS though and I guess that is what counted. AT&T had some attractive prices and small boxes in particular.

    14. Re:Sun missed the x86 boat, yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      $8 000, $2 4000 it does not make much difference to some company who does not have that to spend.

      I remember 64MB RAM was quoted from SUN at £800 while it was £80 for a desktop.

      Guess what was more attractive?

  22. The Barbara Streisand Effect by Drakkenmensch · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Starting in 3... 2... 1...

    1. Re:The Barbara Streisand Effect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The name is Barbra Streisand, not "Barbara."

  23. oops, My Bad by ClosedSource · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I just made the mistake I've been complaining about with others - it wasn't a prosecution because it wasn't a criminal case.

    1. Re:oops, My Bad by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I just made the mistake I've been complaining about with others - it wasn't a prosecution because it wasn't a criminal case.

      No, it was a joke. What do you call it then? Minor chiding?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  24. shifting too open source too late to save by xzvf · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Solaris was made usable by GNU software but by trying to lock Unix into a proprietary environment SUN, IBM and HP nearly caused it to fail when Microsoft came out with a good enough solution with NT. Sure first they started killing of Novell with Windows 3.11 for Workgroups but the Wintel model worked from the ground up. Sun grew to its peak during the dotcom era where Lintel started undercutting the rest of the Unix business around the edges. Maybe if Sun had freed Solaris right after the bust and rode the x86 space with more effort, maybe Solaris would be what Linux is today. The only way to succeed as a technology company in the long run it to put effort into undercutting your own market before someone else does. They figured out what to do, just six years too late. Now we'll see if Oracle is willing to undercut some of its established high margin database market with low margin MySQL. Its going to happen anyway, the question is will they lead and profit from it or just let the business disappear.

    1. Re:shifting too open source too late to save by anlprb · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I still can't get Sun. They killed the product they would eventually try to use to save the company. They killed their current flagship product and then ran scared back to it when they found out their servers were being replaced by Linux on X86. How did they think they were going to justify a proprietary system (SPARC, Solaris) when there was a perfectly reasonable replacement at a great price point (Linux, X86)? Java is nice, but it won't get them far, and what else do they have? Really? Cloud computing and redundant NAS using COTS parts have eaten any lunch they had. Maybe they are just the most current buggy whip maker... I would hate to see them go, but at least any good parts of Sun are GPL'ed. Sorry to see you go, but maybe it's just time.

      http://www.save-solaris.org/schwartz-2006-08-18.html

      --

      One Token Ring to Rule them All, One Search Engine to Find Them, One WAN to bring them in, and TCP/IP Bind them...
    2. Re:shifting too open source too late to save by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You made a typo near the beginning it should read "Solaris was made UNUSABLE by the proliferation really bad GNU software"

    3. Re:shifting too open source too late to save by mzs · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What happened is it was a short sighted save our jobs not their jobs issue. The suits in Palo Alto and Sunnyvale saw that cuts were coming. They were able to convince people including Zander that a great way to save money was to kill Solaris/x86, it had been suffering for years already due to limited staff and budget. Again the reason was that the people doing sparc and asic were afraid so that is why solaris/x86 was kept in such a sorry state. Heck they even had the people doing a large chunk of the x86 work in LA away from the rest of ON in Menlo Park.

      Anyway solaris/x86 was EOLed and almost everyone in LA working on it lost their jobs or got reassigned. But at almost the moment that solaris/x86 was EOLed there was quite a strong grassroots uprising outside of Sun about this, and it simply became impossible to not take notice. When Zander left, the correct direction was taken by embracing amd64.

      When I was there I did some x86 work. Hammer was announced. I voiced an opinion that we should get involved, and boy did that open a can of worms. Eventually through a contact at AMD in the UK I was able to get a person in Sun and a person at AMD to get in touch and we were sent three prototype Hammer boxes. What did those rascals at Sun do? They had them transferred to the SUNWpro (compilers) people instead. No they did not get one to them, one to ON (OS/Networking), and one to the x86 people in LA. The compiler group just sat on them. That infuriated me at the time and shortly after that I started looking for a new job pretty much entirely due to my disgust with how that was handled.

      Here is another nugget, a second level manager told me to distance myself as much as possible from x86 just before it was announced that solaris/x86 was EOLed.

      That is the sort of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level managerial thinking that was the root cause of all of Suns poor decisions over the last ten years. They were always thinking about how best to serve their own group dept div instead of what was best long term.

  25. It would have by Kludge · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Open Source would have saved Sun, if they had thought of it 18 years ago. But they spent so long fighting it, when they finally flipped no one cared.

    1. Re:It would have by Rakarra · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Open Source would have saved Sun, if they had thought of it 18 years ago. But they spent so long fighting it, when they finally flipped no one cared.

      Worse yet, when you spend that long fighting it and you flip, people don't trust you or your commitment. They'll go with the people who had already been promoting and supporting it for years.

    2. Re:It would have by segedunum · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Open Source would have saved Sun, if they had thought of it 18 years ago. But they spent so long fighting it, when they finally flipped no one cared.

      They still haven't flipped though. They created a license in the CDDL that is was needlessly GPL incompatible and years later if you want to bootsrap an 'OpenSolaris' system you will need some binary bits and have to do it from Nevada - Sun's blessed OpenSolaris distribution. They wanted the appearance of being open source so they could go to people and say "Hey, we're just like Linux!"

    3. Re:It would have by rackserverdeals · · Score: 1

      Worse yet, when you spend that long fighting it and you flip, people don't trust you or your commitment. They'll go with the people who had already been promoting and supporting it for years.

      Throughout Sun's history they have been involved in Open Source projects.

      They didn't back Linux as much as they did their own OS, with good reason. But Linux and the GPL are not the only words in Open Source.

      --
      Dual Opteron < $600
    4. Re:It would have by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fought it for a dumb reason, too: they were emotionally defensive and reactionary.

      Watch "Revolution OS" (that silly but in some ways incriminating film) for a taste of the backstage scene: L. Augustine doing the benchmarks that gave a pretty good indication that this new "Linux" [sic] OS running on commodity PCs was going to kill Sun from below. That's a small society: Augustine does the experiment and starts chatting around the halls and, yes, McNealy and the rest are going to get wind of that in conversations with big money - they postured against it with ridicule and that became corporate strategy for a while and....boom.

      It's kind of a correlate of the list of mistakes "failed to grok the x86 architecture - approached it as a tool for our high end business".

      -t

    5. Re:It would have by mzs · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I hate how someone always brings this up. It was because of patents and that it needed to be based per file that the CDDL was made. There was no anti Linux conspiracy. It is not incompatible with the GPL, the GPL is incompatible with the CDDL because of demands that the GPL makes in its text. I was there at the time working down the hall from a person very involved with CDDL and open sourcing solaris. There was another person at Sun that made some comments that were frankly lies when no longer an employee and all the FUD about that stems from that.

    6. Re:It would have by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bzzzt. Wrong.

      A few points:

      1) the CDDL was not specifically created to be GPL incompatible; it was created to meet the needs of developers and Sun's customers. In fact, the CDDL is just a revised version of the MPL.

      2) The only reason binary bits are required from "Nevada" is because Sun was unable to secure the rights to open source those bits, either because copyright holders were unwilling or because it was impossible to do so. It was the same way with Java; or are people's memories so short?

      3) I can assure you it wasn't about appearance; there are literally hundreds, if not thousands of people that worked for Sun that pushed hard for this to happen, and not for marketing reasons -- they were engineers

    7. Re:It would have by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [CDDL] is not incompatible with the GPL, the GPL is incompatible with the CDDL because of demands that the GPL makes in its text.

      Compatibility is a 2-way street. CDDL was written after GPLv2; at that time it would have been possible to write a GPLv2-compatible license. You chose not to do it. You're perfectly entitled to do that - it's your software, you can license it however you like. But don't blame the GPL.

    8. Re:It would have by segedunum · · Score: 1

      It was because of patents and that it needed to be based per file that the CDDL was made. There was no anti Linux conspiracy. It is not incompatible with the GPL, the GPL is incompatible with the CDDL because of demands that the GPL makes in its text.

      It's an interesting sleight of hand way of looking at it. I fail to see how anyone can retrospectively make the GPL CDDL compatible. The CDDL was needlessly GPL incompatible and the patent argument still doesn't wash.

      There was another person at Sun that made some comments that were frankly lies when no longer an employee and all the FUD about that stems from that.

      So we just ignore anyone who doesn't tow the Sun line?

    9. Re:It would have by segedunum · · Score: 1
      I normally don't reply to anonymous comments, but it seems some people are really rather upset over this.

      Bzzzt. Wrong.

      Bzzzzt. I look at what is, not at what people want it to be perceived as.

      the CDDL was not specifically created to be GPL incompatible; it was created to meet the needs of developers and Sun's customers. In fact, the CDDL is just a revised version of the MPL.

      Nevertheless, it is still GPL incompatible where other similar licenses and software projects have not had a problem. The MPL is a rather silly and historic license and is why Mozilla itself does tri licensing.

      The only reason binary bits are required from "Nevada" is because Sun was unable to secure the rights to open source those bits, either because copyright holders were unwilling or because it was impossible to do so.

      This is still the case after several years. It's rather disingenuous to call it open source really isn't it?

      It was the same way with Java; or are people's memories so short?

      Sun has dragged its feet over that in the same way after proclaiming Java as being 'open sourced'. I don't know what you think that proves other than Sun likes the appearance of being open source but they're not all that keen on it with much of the software they control.

      I can assure you it wasn't about appearance; there are literally hundreds, if not thousands of people that worked for Sun that pushed hard for this to happen

      I listen to Sun's sales consultants. "Oh, Solaris is now OpenSolaris and is open source just like Linux!" That's how it was used.

  26. Oh? by immcintosh · · Score: 4, Interesting

    How long will it take corporate overlords until they finally realize that broad level censorship and trying to control the message are far more harmful than just becoming part of the discourse?

    Apple begs to differ.

    1. Re:Oh? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Unix is about openness, Apple doesn't care about the Unix aspect, that's just a way to get geeks onboard to hype the mac to their friends like they won't do with windows. But Sun's business strategies depend on that aspect of Unix...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  27. Not doing things *to the end* by hubert.lepicki · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sun apparently didn't do their job *to the very end* at various points.

    1. x86 - they entered the market, but not quite (no desktops, no laptops, no low-cost servers, only big machines). You can run Solaris on x86 but not quite. You can even run it on a laptop and have NVidia accelerator running, but for most people it's still a dream, urban legend as they can't do it at home with their own hardware. Maybe they shouldn't enter x86 at all?

    2. Java cross-platform myth. Write once - run anywhere... not quite. It's very very popular as "enterprise" solution, but most people don't use any Java desktop apps, applets were disaster and JavaFX... later about that!

    3. Open source and their products. We all know Java is open source now (finally, and obviously with large amount of work done by RedHat!), but Solaris? Binary blobs must be included in any build to make it work. Incompatible with GPL libenses, and also not a BSD model - what was that all about? It was like: "yeah we want to be part of open source movement. but you can't fork our code too much".

    4. Failure on building community. This IS a big deal. Linux has got great large community of users/developers/fans. Apple has got it's army of zombie fanboys. Sun tried to build community around OpenSolaris and failed. "Project Kenai", "Zembly" look like half-finished sites. Just compare it with Github (I know it's a bit different usage but hey). The only successful one is Netbeans.org IMHO, but still - could be more successful if they didn't require signing agreement before submitting patches. Hell, I love Netbeans but I won't send them my code so they can use it in closed-source Sun Studio.

    5. Not allowing interested users to use their innovative products. I am a software developer. I write software using Linux. I wanted to try out JavaFX... and you know what? It doesn't run on Linux. I wanted to write widgets on desktop using cutting-edge JVM drag-from-firefox-to-desktop feature, and expected my browser not to crash. I finally wanted x64 Java plugin for years, and once it got here - most people already use OpenJDK.

    6. Desktop Java. Swing could be most popular GUI toolkit today if it integrated nicely with Gnome desktop for years now, if Java could be distributed easily with Debian, and people wrote software for it. No, let's keep Java close till it becomes obsolete on desktop and release it then. Crazy.

    7. Trying to be service provider. OK, sun's hardware is great. Service providers buy Sun's hardware, say data centers. Now, one day, Sun becomes services provider, direct competitor of people who buy hardware from this company. Isn't there a conflict of interests?

    8. No one mainline software. Yeah, sun has Solaris. But also had Linux distro. Bought MySQL, but also had flirted with PostgreSQL, Apache derby. It obviously confuses people, and look at IBM: "Go run Linux and DB2 on our servers".

    9. Bunch of outdated, obsolete software that no one use. Some basic software like shells that come with Solaris were totally out of date till recently. And they still run "innovative" projects that failed many years ago: Project Looking Glass as best example.

    10. Sparc failure. Maybe not exactly a failure. I know it's really great processor family. It has got potential. It's fast, multi-core, modern. Probably made them loose lots of money recently. What went wrong here? Maybe they should license chips for third-parties? Maybe they should build and push desktop/mobile versions? Maybe they should abandon it for PowerPC to provide better compatibility with IBM? I really don't know, but they did something wrong, and giving it's own customers alternative as AMD servers didn't help.

    They did too much things wrong, and maybe too much things in general at the same time rather than concentrate on what brings them profit - their hardware.

    1. Re:Not doing things *to the end* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      2. Java cross-platform myth. Write once - run anywhere... not quite. It's very very popular as "enterprise" solution, but most people don't use any Java desktop apps, applets were disaster and JavaFX... later about that!

      I think this one is interesting. They came out guns a blazin' about cross-platform in 1994. So many folks got burned, but now, with Java 5 and Java 6, it is remarkable. Probably not perfect but it's far far better than it was back then. The bitter taste people got sort of overwhelmed though. Same with performance, it's consistently faster than Ruby, Python and other alternatives folks suggest but to many it's still "slow." Java was the first language/platform to start out with advocacy, that might be the lesson, if you have marketing and advocacy then you might have problems. Opening it up earlier wouldn't have hurt either.

      10. Sparc failure. Maybe not exactly a failure. I know it's really great processor family. It has got potential. It's fast, multi-core, modern. Probably made them loose lots of money recently. What went wrong here? Maybe they should license chips for third-parties? Maybe they should build and push desktop/mobile versions? Maybe they should abandon it for PowerPC to provide better compatibility with IBM? I really don't know, but they did something wrong, and giving it's own customers alternative as AMD servers didn't help.

      Sparc could have been good, it's not very. You have to really contrive tests to make it look really good, it's not many common use cases these days. Intel should have paid Sun to jump on to Itanium and abandon Sparc 10 years back.

      It sort of seems really really dated and just clueless to me that ZFS and dtrace were somehow supposed to light the world on fire and make it a Sun planet. What percentage of users even know or care what filesystem they are using? How ever small it is, it's probably too many as it is.

    2. Re:Not doing things *to the end* by hubert.lepicki · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It sort of seems really really dated and just clueless to me that ZFS and dtrace were somehow supposed to light the world on fire and make it a Sun planet. What percentage of users even know or care what filesystem they are using? How ever small it is, it's probably too many as it is.

      And the sad thing is that both DTrace and ZFS are amazing products. ZFS with it's snapshots and other features would work great not only in data centres, but also in cheap home backup boxes - an alternative to apple TimeMachine thing. DTrace is like a candy, amazing, powerful tracing framework that I'd love to see more widely used.

    3. Re:Not doing things *to the end* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Linux has got great large community of users/developers/fans. Apple has got it's army of zombie fanboys.

      Nice completely gratuitous dig at people who like Apple's stuff. Way to show off your Linux social skills.

    4. Re:Not doing things *to the end* by nabsltd · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Sparc failure. Maybe not exactly a failure. I know it's really great processor family. It has got potential. It's fast, multi-core, modern. Probably made them loose lots of money recently. What went wrong here?

      One problem is that the very latest SPARC chips ("CoolThreads") are outperformed on a per-core basis by the much cheaper Intel Core i7.

      A fairly nice 16-core Core i7 motherboard/CPUs/RAM config will cost around $1000. Sure, you'll have to add disks, a case to put it in, etc., but those costs are essentially the same regardless of what CPU architecture is being used. And, you can get the Intel system from a variety of vendors (HP, Dell, etc.).

      The SPARC version will cost closer to $4000 (tough to call, because you can't get the raw motherboard), and run at 1.4GHz instead of 2.66GHz.

      Then there's virtualization, which Sun uses to claim SPARC is lower cost because it comes free while you must pay $4000+ for x86 virtualization on an equivalent system. One problem with this claim is that SPARC only allows you to virtualize Solaris, while x86 virtualization allows you to virtualize Windows, BSD, Linux, etc. The second problem is that there are many free hypervisors for x86 that are as good as the one included with Solaris...it's only the enterprise-class easy-to-manage ones that cost money.

    5. Re:Not doing things *to the end* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sparc failure. Maybe not exactly a failure. I know it's really great processor family. It has got potential. It's fast, multi-core, modern. Probably made them loose lots of money recently. What went wrong here? Maybe they should license chips for third-parties?

      They did. Back in '89 they set up a separate company (SPARC International) to do just that. Fuji manufacturers them a whole bunch of them for Sun's M-class servers.

      They've even GPL'd some (all?) of their UltraSPARC-T-based chips:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPARC

    6. Re:Not doing things *to the end* by rackserverdeals · · Score: 3, Informative

      One problem is that the very latest SPARC chips ("CoolThreads") are outperformed on a per-core basis by the much cheaper Intel Core i7.

      The point of the coolthreads servers aren't to go core to core with other CPUs. The strength of those systems is the number of cores you can get in a single system. A T5440 supports 4 T2 Plus prcoessors which gives you 32 cores. The CoolThreads servers also the number of threads. A 4 socket Core i7 server only has 32 threads while a T5440 has 256.

      The Core i7 is also not a server class processor, it is meant for the desktop and gaming market. It doesn't support ECC memory.

      The Nehalem based Xeon processors will be coming out this year will support up to 8 cores 16 threads per socket.

      That might be closer, but the Niagara line of processors are still quite different. I think the Nehalem Xeon processors will be more like Rock so it will be interesting to see head to head comparisons of those systems when they eventually come out.

      But that's besides the point. Niagara based servers have been shipping for years and other than the Mac Pro workstation that came out recently, the Nehalem Xeon systems haven't started shipping yet.

      --
      Dual Opteron < $600
    7. Re:Not doing things *to the end* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "10. Sparc failure. Maybe not exactly a failure. I know it's really great processor family. It has got potential. It's fast, multi-core, modern. Probably made them loose lots of money recently. What went wrong here? Maybe they should license chips for third-parties?"

      http://www.sparc.com/aboutOverview.html

    8. Re:Not doing things *to the end* by merky1 · · Score: 3, Informative

      The point of the coolthreads servers aren't to go core to core with other CPUs. The strength of those systems is the number of cores you can get in a single system. A T5440 supports 4 T2 Plus prcoessors which gives you 32 cores.

      And even with the "32 cores", the Niagara was beaten out by cheaper x86 servers.

      http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/cache/280124-0-0-0-121.html

      Sun basically killed themselves by canceling the Sparc line. They never ramped the clocks on cores, and the multi-threaded model that they designed towards was a fringe case at best.

      --
      --WooooHoooo--
    9. Re:Not doing things *to the end* by joib · · Score: 1

      Sun basically killed themselves by canceling the Sparc line. They never ramped the clocks on cores, and the multi-threaded model that they designed towards was a fringe case at best.

      Another way of seeing it, their volume*margin for SPARC was so low that they couldn't afford to keep up in the single-thread performance race with Intel, AMD and IBM. Short of completely getting rid of SPARC, cookie-cutter copying many simple and slow cores on a die was a cheap choice their budget did allow. And it does well in some workloads.

      I expect Oracle to sell the SPARC business to Fujitsu (who already designs and fabs the SPARC64 chips). I don't expect Oracle to completely abandon SPARC, at least not yet, but rather they will resell rebadged Fujitsu servers, just like Sun does today.

    10. Re:Not doing things *to the end* by rackserverdeals · · Score: 1

      Sun didn't cancel the SPARC line.

      That article you link to is years old and is about a the first generation of Niagara processors, T1, sun has addressed some of the issues with the T1 in the T2 and T2 plus.

      --
      Dual Opteron < $600
    11. Re:Not doing things *to the end* by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      Sun's mistakes go back a ways. They explored display Postscript, and discarded it in favor of X11. While X11 was open source, display Postscript was much faster and easier to program in, and gave cleaner displays. But they then screwed up X11, proprietizing it and making it incompatible.

      Sun's marketing plans have also failed miserably by refusing to admit that people wanted better versions of what already worked, rather than the "next big marketing plan". The switch to from SunOS to Solaris for the sun4m architecture was a clever hook to force the switchover, until it became clear that the sun4m could easily run SunOS and their Tatung partners started selling better configured hardware with SunOS on it. Like Microsoft selling Vista, it turned out people were happier with their old OS.

      I've had too much fun in the last few years migrating systems off of Solaris and other commercial UNIX's to Linux, for the increased availibility of higher end open source tools.

    12. Re:Not doing things *to the end* by recharged95 · · Score: 1
      The ironic thing is that if Sun did all the items listed, they would be still out of business. The company wanted to make it big with its hardware and the "x86 movement" (i.e. commodity hardware) killed it--it was inevitable. Really, the list isn't why Sun failed, but more of why Linux has only a 1% market share today. Sun could have made Linux take off, we all would not be running Windows on "some-box" in our network, but they choose not to--hence why it is dead and why Linux is still where is was [at least] 5yrs ago.

      .

      Sun had the same problems that SGI, Cray, Next, DEC, MIPS CS, Olivetti, HP and IBM: RISC CPUs and proprietary cores. Sun was able to hold out longer due to Solaris licenses. HP and IBM where big enough to make the turn to x86. Granted the list above has excellent points on what was key Sun technology, but if fulfilled, it would have only help Linux and not Sun.

      .

      Also, if you think about it, if it wasn't for Sun and other RISC/MIPS manufactureers, Windows NT/XP/Vista would have been worse. Since NT was supported on RISC at one point in time, Microsoft had to cleanup their code base.

    13. Re:Not doing things *to the end* by Megane · · Score: 1

      They explored display Postscript, and discarded it in favor of X11. While X11 was open source, display Postscript was much faster and easier to program in, and gave cleaner displays. But they then screwed up X11, proprietizing it and making it incompatible.

      Meanwhile, what happened to DPS? It got used by NeXT. Then what happened? Apple bought out NeXT, re-wrote it using a PDF model instead of Postscript (functionally similar, but more efficient than having a full interpreted programming language for your display model), with X11 only being an afterthought.

      What we have here is an example of two companies who both started with high-margin 68000-based computers, switched to RISC, then x86. The difference is that one of them stopped producing its RISC computers completely. It also reduced its margins in the meantime, increased its volume, and is still its own company.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    14. Re:Not doing things *to the end* by Raenex · · Score: 1

      It sort of seems really really dated and just clueless to me that ZFS and dtrace were somehow supposed to light the world on fire and make it a Sun planet. What percentage of users even know or care what filesystem they are using? How ever small it is, it's probably too many as it is.

      It's not targeted for users -- it's targeted for system administrators. Sun was trying to compete with Linux in the server market. And really, it did make a splash, but they aren't enough to switch. If anything, people will just wait until Linux implements similar functionality.

    15. Re:Not doing things *to the end* by nabsltd · · Score: 1

      The strength of those systems is the number of cores you can get in a single system. A T5440 supports 4 T2 Plus prcoessors which gives you 32 cores. The CoolThreads servers also the number of threads. A 4 socket Core i7 server only has 32 threads while a T5440 has 256.

      With clusters of virtualization servers that can move workloads around, 8 servers using the current Core i7 chips would cost far less than a fully-outfitted T5440 (which runs about $150K), and be far more versatile.

      The Core i7 is also not a server class processor, it is meant for the desktop and gaming market. It doesn't support ECC memory.

      Core i7/Nehalam == poe-tay-toe/pa-tah-toe.

      The differences are slight...really, except for ECC, there's not a whole lot that separates the two, since Core i7 is Nehalem, of the "Bloomfield" variety, while the Xeons are "Beckton", "Gainestown", "Bloomfield", and "Lynnfield".

      The Nehalem Xeons have been out for a while, and systems are shipping with them, although none use the announced but maybe never actually shipping 8-core models. I suspect that most people will be better off with the 4-core/8-thread models, since this isn't your father's hyperthreading...it really is more like an extra core.

  28. a priori by Gary+W.+Longsine · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Uh... the guy posted this shit to his blog. He works for the company he's bad mouthing. That's pretty stupid. It doesn't take much "evidence" beyond what the guy already provided. If Sun had many more employees of that caliber, it's little wonder they declined.

    --
    If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
    1. Re:a priori by postbigbang · · Score: 3, Funny

      As we feared: he was trying to be an open source.

      Now he's closed.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    2. Re:a priori by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've managed to get modded "flamebait", "troll", and "insightful", all for the same thing. It's a /. hat trick!

    3. Re:a priori by EvilAlphonso · · Score: 1

      Yeah, their decline had nothing to do with top level management spending $3.5bn to bury Cobalt. Nor had it anything to do with management/marketing changing the specs every other day for processors, firmwares or many other products. It definitely had nothing to do with them spending a fortune converting to 6 sigma only to ignore all the processes that were streamlined during the implementation. It also had nothing to do with the successive RIFs between 2001 and now, where employees got replaced by external service providers and/or contractors.

      Let's say that you are a Sun customer, they're becoming a rare breed around here. If you get "random freelance contractor" coming on site for $500 a day or the same "random freelance contractor" with a Sun sticker coming on site for $1500 a day, which one would you select? From my past dealings with Sun, I would pick the $500/day guy as I would then be able to select based on his resume (and not the tweaked version Sun would give me) and the contractor would actually get more money that way.

      From the 3 years I spent at Sun, in Support Services, Professional Services or Presales, I could write an Encyclopedia Britannica sized document on how not to run a business or a project.

      PS: about the soda thing, they were also free at Sun until 2002 or 2003.

    4. Re:a priori by geekoid · · Score: 1

      It is wrong for the company you work for to make any decisions about what you do in your personal life.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    5. Re:a priori by jc42 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      As we feared: he was trying to be an open source.
      Now he's closed.

      Heh. Deserving of the "funny" mod, and like a lot of humor, based on a lot of truth.

      Back in the years either side of 1990, I worked on a number of projects building software packages on workstations, and mostly I worked on Suns. One of the fun parts was all the people asking why we'd go with such an expensive machine, when you could get cheaper workstations with the same capabilities. But what happened repeatedly was: The guys working on the cheaper machines would be busy tracking down a bug, and the evidence led them into the system (libraries or OS). They'd ask the support people, and the answer would be "We can't tell you; that's proprietary."

      Meanwhile, we Sun geeks would handle such things by asking questions on the various relevant mailing lists and newsgroups. More often than not, answers would be posted by Sun engineers, who were encouraged to follow the forums. Fairly often, a Sun guy would simply offer to send us the relevant source code as an explanation. Often, they'd explain that it was too much code to just post on a list, but anyone who asked would get the code in their email. Sun wasn't officially open-source, but they'd figured out that helping developers understand the innards was good for business. And it was, because inevitably we'd have stuff running on the Sun boxes long before the teams working on the "proprietary" systems. Having working deliverables is always better than not having them, even if they're more expensive.

      But during the 1990s, this situation slowly disappeared. Sun slowly took their stuff proprietary, and developing significant software started running up against the brick wall of trade secrecy. But systems like linux and the *BSDs came along to replace Sun, giving us the access to internals that Sun no longer allowed.

      Note that part of Sun's early success was that the code was sent "warts and all". Sun engineers were quite open about what it could do and what it couldn't. It was common to get warnings from the Sun guys that certain parts hadn't been tested much, and we should expect bugs. This sort of thing horrifies marketing people, but it was what made us trust Sun and choose their platform for our packages. And again, when Sun drifted toward not being as open about their stuff's problems, that told us developers that we could no longer trust them for the information we needed to get our stuff working. So we moved to the open systems where people post criticisms and bug reports openly.

      It doesn't surprise me that Sun has lost its original position as a high-quality deveopment platform. It doesn't surprise me that they wouldn't want their people publishing criticisms of Sun's products. But those things long ago moved Sun from the "friendly and honest little company" category into the "untrustworthy big business" category in my mind and in the minds of a lot of developers.

      Someday the same thing will happen with the major linux distros, and we'll respond the same way. Not with a big fuss, but by just quietly walking away and adopting other systems.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    6. Re:a priori by postbigbang · · Score: 1

      I'll echo your thoughts. SunOS was like running university Berkeley. Solaris was very cool, then it got stranger and stranger. Sprinkle in Java, and it was stranger still. But it ran Oracle nicely, and it had a predictable behavior.

      The leap to Solaris 10 and 'opensolaris' was a real jolt. I don't think Sun realized the problem of running alternate platform support and the troubles it could bring.

      When organizations run scared, they clam up. Liability... bad press, platform criticisms because platforms are so hard to level. It did them in. Thar's gold in them parachutes....

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    7. Re:a priori by Sanat · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Please mod parent up

      Anytime that Marketing gets involved in actually running a tech company then there is only one direction for it to go... a downward spiral.

      I always get suspicious when they replace real technical ability with individuals that have catchy titles ("random freelance contractor" with a Sun sticker)... which to me indicates little or no ability.

      Technical ability is hard won. A title or a sticker or a badge packs little credence among those who have already achieved the hard way. I can imagine the document that you could write from your experiences there.

      --
      And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make
    8. Re:a priori by jcr · · Score: 1

      It's a /. hat trick!

      It's really not that hard to do. I've gotten "flamebait", "funny", "troll", "Informative" and "insightful" all on the same post before. So have a lot of other people.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    9. Re:a priori by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Someday the same thing will happen with the major linux distros, and we'll respond the same way. Not with a big fuss, but by just quietly walking away and adopting other systems.

      The difference being that if Linux hasn't already been superseded by some OS which is superior for the desktop or something, we'll just be adopting different Linux-based systems, since the kernel, userland, and toolchain are all Open Source and under a license that resists shenanigans.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    10. Re:a priori by BobPaul · · Score: 1

      If Sun had many more employees of that caliber (sic)

      Yeah, it sure does suck when your employees are smart enough to recognize failure and learn from it. That's actually a sought after trait in my field. But you're probably right. Sun failed because too many of their employees learned from past mistakes.

  29. It's the organization, stupid by Brandybuck · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's the nature of large organizations. Brandybuck's law states that the collective intelligence of an organization is inversely proportional to its size. That applies to chess clubs, corporations, and governments. The larger the company, the dumber they are.

    It's even been shown to be true via economic analysis. The top down control of a firm hinders the natural distribution of localized information. This affects all firms, but with small organizations it's just background noise. But above a certain size firms will become so bogged down in process that they cease to operate. Which is why large companies artificially divide themselves up into smaller semi-autonomous divisions. And why huge multinationals only exist only in an environment where government hands out special privileges and subsidies like candy. Leftists like to bitch about businesses running government, and the right about governments running businesses. But they're both the same thing, shielding businesses from the natural market mechanisms that would otherwise limit their size.

    Yeah, it's sad that Sun is squashing openness, and sad that they can't see it's ultimately bad for them. But you can't expect much else from a corporation of their size.

    --
    Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
    1. Re:It's the organization, stupid by XanC · · Score: 1

      Have you read Confederates in the Boardroom? It's about how decentralizing can make things more efficient.

    2. Re:It's the organization, stupid by Brandybuck · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      No I haven't read it, but it should be common sense to anyone untainted by an MBA.

      --
      Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
  30. Sun-Linux strategy factors into this as well. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think Linux was a big part of this as well, I switched from sunos/sparc to x86/linux because it was
    faster on my engineering applications. Lower license use cost, lower hardware cost came into it also...
    x86/sunos or linux/sparc never really factored into it....

  31. n/a by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As indicated, there is knowledge to be gained from failures. So, why should a company be more eager to share it than any of their other proprietary data? It would be better to keep it secret and let the other companies make the same mistakes.

  32. SunPeak and the attitude that ran it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This goes back a ways, but it is a great example of the problems at Sun. SunPeak. Those that know this project, know how much time and money Sun sunk into this over several years in the 90's, only to scrap most of it just prior to Y2K. Shareholders would be shocked. The numbers you are thinking of are dwarfed by what this project eventual ate up.

    The continued emphasis of Sun on Sun and making everything a showcase was what doomed this project to re-inventing/re-starting itself every 6 months as the OS revved, the hardware revved, or Oracle Apps revved. Ironically Oracle is about to own Sun.

    1. Re:SunPeak and the attitude that ran it by deanston · · Score: 1

      I remember Schwartz on the cover of a major tech magazine a couple of years ago, JDJ, I think, with the tag line underneath that said "The End of Middleware" just as Oracle was starting to heavily push their presence as the middleware platform. Now Oracle is about to own Sun.

  33. I'm tired by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    anyone know how I can catch some zzz's at work? without anybody catch me of course!

  34. stock market != logical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The summary makes a leap of logic. The company was never really worth 200 billion except in the eyes of the guy that bought his shares at $253.88 back in September of 2000.

    So the loss of value isn't strictly due to mistakes the company made. The stock market crash accounts for most of that drop.

    Sun has US$ 13B worth of revenue with 25,000 employess, Red Hat has $400M with 2,200, and yet they' have a roughly equivalent market cap ($3-6B).

    The stock market is not based on logic.

  35. This Is Not Censorship by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's ridiculous and childish to call this censorship, it's not... Thumbs down to the "I'm entitled to everything I feel like" generation. The submitter needs to move out of his parents basement, get a job, and learn how the world works.

    Baigent works for Sun, anybody with a nickel of common sense would know that not only is it unprofessional to communicate the kind of crap he was trying to, it is also against most company's policies to do so, and I would bet your lives Sun is no different.

    If he wants voice his assessment (top 10 list) he is welcome to quit his job and post his opionion, as long as he doesn't violate any agreements he made with Sun. It would be censorship if they prevented him from voicing his opinion outside of any agreement he has with Sun.

    1. Re:This Is Not Censorship by shentino · · Score: 1

      I would consider it censorship to impose any such agreement in the first place.

      Particularly if it's anything that a shareholder would be entitled to know about.

  36. The number one... by mysqlbytes · · Score: 1

    ...marketing slogan that Sun ever waisted money on... "What can we dot com for you today?"

  37. Thanks for sparing us the next 7 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously. I've worked at Sun a long time. If his next 7 reasons were as bad as his first 3, then score one for censorship! He's a "Senior Director" at Sun folks...that's like the fox whining about how the hen house caught on fire.

  38. Sun is almost 30 years old by peter303 · · Score: 1

    They are a little younger than MicroSoft and Apple.
    Sun did a lot of interesting things in its first decade like pioneer networking, build one of the earliest usable graphics computers, and the best flavor of UNIX. They stumbled in the 1990s before briefly recovering with JAVA, then downhill again.

  39. nehalem xeons are shipping by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i've had one in the lab for 2 weeks.

    1. Re:nehalem xeons are shipping by rackserverdeals · · Score: 1

      I meant the 8 core models. I think only the 6 core X7460, L7455 and E7450 are out.

      --
      Dual Opteron < $600
  40. Sun failed... by mebrahim · · Score: 1

    because it ran out of Hydrogen.

  41. Sun, the anti-apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When Sun started they used standard parts to build their boxes and a standard operating system (Unix which every college lab had at the time). Somewhere along the line the went to their own version of Unix their own chips, their own everything. Kind of the same thing that made Apple a niche initially.

    Personally I think Sun got lucky with how they were positioned when the Internet showed up and they never really understood how to reproduce the unreproducable.

    And on a micro level moving hundreds of people from Menlo Park to Newark and then back a year or two later was just stupid, disruptive and expensive.

  42. If Sun's CEOs REALLY believed in F/OSS (and OSS) by recharged95 · · Score: 1
    They'll announce the failings or let folks talk after they get new jobs somewhere else.

    .
    .

    Interview Tip #1: Don't B*tch about your previous company during an interview! Wait until you get the job first.

  43. There's problems all around... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In publishing, it's never just content, and it's never just marketing. There's got to be an audience. "We don't know how to sell your magazine" is a perfectly good reason to kill a magazine, if it's true.

    I'm a writer myself, and I work for both literary and lifestyle magazines. Lit mags lose money. No matter how good the content, they operate in the red, and that's the way it is. Lifestyle rags make money, sometimes hand over fist, and sometimes with deplorable content. People buy them, and advertisers underwrite them.

    It does not matter how good your content is. If it does not sell, you're out of business.

  44. These articles are only in the google cache... by mzs · · Score: 3, Interesting

    so somebody better post them here for posterity, and I guess that will be me.

    End of an Icon
    It's been quite a while since I've written anything in my blog. Having worked for the Corporate Development group at Sun for the past 3 1/2 years, I've had to be very careful about what I posted on a public blog. I felt it was better to be safe than sorry, so I've left it to the many other prolific bloggers at Sun to tell our story.

    But with the recent announcement that Sun will become part of Oracle, I feel able for the first time to talk about how we got here. Not about the Oracle acquisition itself, but rather how we as a company came to the point where seeking an acquirer was the best way forward. Granted, 2009 is one of the most challenging years in decades and many companies are struggling, but when I joined Sun in 1997, we had the technology world by the tail and were poised to become as influential and lucrative as our more famous rivals (Microsoft, IBM, Intel, HP and even Oracle). So as excited as I am about becoming part of Oracle (there were many far worse options in my opinion), it still feels a little anti-climatic.

    So as a sort of "post mortem" on the company, I'd like to examine where I think Sun really missed its opportunities. Some things are only obvious in hind sight, but many of these things are things I've spent my career at Sun advocating and attempting to drive forward. Maybe this is a bit of sour grapes on my part, but mostly this is just an attempt to say externally some of what I've been saying internally at Sun for most of my tenure, now that our future as a Corporation is moving out of our hands.

    I will call this my "Top 10 Reasons Sun is Setting". In typical Top 10 fashion, I will start with the #10 Reason Sun is Setting and work my way up to the #1 reason. I know there is a lot of opinion on this topic out there, so feel free to comment as you see fit. I think we may all find this cathartic.

    Posted on: Apr 23, 2009
    Posted by: dbaigent
    Category: Sun

    Comments:

    Don't blame employees. Just look back at the Sun very recent history. December 2008 : Southeastern Asset Management enter the board. April 20, Southeastern Asset Management sells all its stocks : http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idINN2150514720090421?rpc=44.
    Think about that.

    Posted by Dominique on April 23, 2009 at 09:36 AM PDT #

    I have a question for you Sir
    When you hear that Oracle wants to make 15% profit in the first year, are you embarressed? I mean you (and the other managers) could have cut all those useless projects that Oracle will cut now years ago, couln't you? Does it really need Larry Ellison to make a company with 13bn revenue and 55% gross margin profitable?

    Posted by Mista on April 23, 2009 at 10:36 AM PDT #

    I don't blame employees - at least not the rank-and-file. Sun is full of great, dedicated, energetic people who have done some incredible things with technology. Better than our rivals. My comments will be more on missed opportunities and poor strategies, not on the failure of any specific employees.

    Posted by dbaigent on April 23, 2009 at 11:43 AM PDT #

    No, I am not embarrassed by the idea that Oracle might turn a profit when Sun alone could not. It's easy to turn a profit by slashing jobs. Sun has been trying to turn a profit through increasing revenues, which is much harder.

    Posted by dbaigent on April 23, 2009 at 11:50 AM PDT #

    Increase revenue? With what?
    - with Looking Glass? Darkstar? Wonderland?
    - with a webserver?
    - with support fees of 1000$/socket for an application server or a database while direct competitors charge at least 20x that much?
    - with cutting prices for products (Openstorage or Niagara) ?

    Posted by Mista on April 23, 2009 at 12:31 PM PDT #

    The strategy for increased revenue depended on increasing the attach rate for existing products by leveraging communities of customers who

  45. The #10 Reason that Sun is Setting: by mzs · · Score: 3, Informative

    We failed to understand the x86 Market

    It often gets mentioned by the press and certain analysts that Sun didn't get into the x86 market soon enough, or strong enough, or didn't drop SPARC when it should have, or some other such criticism. I believe Sun entered the x86 market when it had to (our first foray into the market was the oft-lamented LX50 server back in 2002) and has done a decent job (with the help of Andy Bechtolsheim) at differentiating our offerings while maintaining a competitive price (although margins are another matter altogether).

    The problem is we didn't understand the x86 market. We approached the market in the only way we knew how - as an extension of our high-end, low-volume, high-value approach to network computing. And not just in terms of product features and capabilities, but in terms of sales, partnerships, channel programs and supply chain management. We've been improving over the years, but we still have a channel strategy that leverages our traditional partners and programs and does not effectively take our volume products to volume customers.

    Our other mistake was to allow our strategy for proliferating Solaris on x86 to overshadow our need to drive volume for our x86 business. Although Sun has been offering Linux on our x86 systems since 2003 and has recently entered into OEM agreements with both Microsoft and VMWare, our focus as a company has been exclusively on Solaris. It is the only OS we pre-install on our hardware. The key to gaining momentum in the channel is to provide the environments that customers want, which for x86 is still predominantly Linux and Windows. We needed to focus on Solaris, but in the area of ISV recruitment and creating solutions that uniquely leverage Solaris and add value to customers, thereby creating demand. By failing to promote other OS offerings and solutions within the channel, we became a niche player in their mind and ultimately became an after thought in their sales to end users. Volume drives the channel, the channel drives volume and volume is the only way to make money in the x86 market.

    We've been getting smarter about this lately and over time we would have eventually gotten this right. And we've made progress on the Solaris side, so overall this was not going to bankrupt the company. But it has stunted one of the key growth markets for us and helped to keep us in the "expensive, proprietary system" box that our competitors painted for us, so it has contributed to our lackluster stock performance. For this and other reasons, it is my #10 Reason for Sun to be Setting.
    Posted on: Apr 24, 2009
    Posted by: dbaigent
    Category: Sun

    Comments:

    No, the LX50 was not the first. Sun386i was - yes, off your main point here, but it's nice to know your past.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun386i

    Posted by RNC on April 24, 2009 at 09:34 AM PDT #

    You're right RNC. Thanks for keeping me honest.

    Posted by dbaigent on April 24, 2009 at 10:14 AM PDT #

    Can you comment a bit, how x86 affected your SPARC sales? Did you loose a lot of SPARC64 or Niagara customers because of your x64 offerings?
    Thanks

    Posted by Dennis on April 25, 2009 at 01:10 AM PDT #

    Dennis,

    There have clearly been circumstances where a customer who would otherwise have purchased a SPARC-based system instead chose to buy an x64-based system, but that was rarely because Sun offered one. In other words, it was rare for Sun to "lose" a SPARC-based system sale because of our own x64 offerings. More often, a customer would show a preference for x64 (for real or imagined benefits of that system architecture) and by having an x64-based offering, Sun could keep that customer. The problem in my mind was that our x64 strategy prevented us from truly leveraging x64 to gain new customers, nit that it cost us any existing customers.

    Posted by dbaigent on April 25, 2009 at 05:43 PM PDT #

    I had a 386i, it was 20 grand list, but I bought it for 500 quid. It cam

  46. The #9 Reason that Sun is Setting: by mzs · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Messing with the Java Brand

    Much has been said and will be said about how Sun "blew it" with Java - mostly around the lack of contribution by the technology to Sun's bottom line. But this #9 reason for the Setting Sun is not so much about lack of Java revenue (that's actually a rather complicated story), but rather about the numerous attempts by well-meaning marketing folks at Sun to try exploit the value of the Java brand itself and how that ultimately reduced the very value they tried to exploit. To some degree, this is as much about the lack of value in the Sun brand (at least outside our loyal customer base) as it is about Java. After all, if we had sufficient value in the Sun brand there would be no need to try to leverage the Java brand in other areas. But I believe our attempts to leverage the hard-fought value of the Java brand ultimately back-fired, diminishing both the Sun brand and the Java brand.

    In the earlier days of Java, the technology was managed by an independent "operating company" called JavaSoft, with its own marketing, sales, products and brand management. There were numerous discussions and debates within JavaSoft about the use of the Java brand and for the most part there was a strong focus on associating the brand with the promise of the technology - that old idea of "write once, run anywhere". There were several brand campaigns around Java - there was the concept of "Java Compatible" for licensees of the technology, "100% Pure Java" for application providers, "Java Powered" for devices, etc. - some of which were very successful, others were branding duds. But there was always a careful consideration of the term "Java" and how we would allow it to be used - both internally and externally.

    Fast forward to around 2003 and Sun is struggling to regain its former dot-com glory. We're coming off the painful Netscape-AOL alliance (more on that later) and we're struggling to find a way to express our remarkably robust software assets through a brand. We'd abandoned the confused "iPlanet" brand (which suffered from under-promotion and a "who's your daddy" syndrome between Sun and AOL) and were struggling with the equally confusing and under-promoted "Sun ONE" brand. We were also in one of our many post-dot-com-bubble austerity programs, so heavy investment in any brand was not likely to get funded. I can only assume that the branding discussion (which I was not part of) went something like this:

    What's the answer to our branding problem? Java! It's already one of the most recognizable brands in the world and we own it outright. Confused about what Sun ONE Application Server is? Call it the Java Application Server and problem solved! Well, wait - not quite. We can't really call it Java Application Server - that's already an industry standard term for Java EE implementations like IBM's Websphere and BEA's Weblogic and we don't want to further promote them. So let's call it Sun Java Application Server! Wait - hold on. That's likely to get confused with Sun's Java Application Server, which isn't very "brandy" and would be like saying "Sun's Operating System" for Solaris. Not good. Okay - how about Sun Java System Application Server! Yeah! That means it's not just an Application Server, but it is part of a system! Great! All our software is part of a "system"! Now we have a convention for all our software assets! The Sun Java System (fill in your product function here)!

    This lead to a proliferation of product names like Sun Java System Access Manager, Sun Java System Identity Manager, Sun Java System Directory Proxy Server, Sun Java System Web Proxy Server and on and on. The problem was not only was this a messy and cumbersome branding campaign, it was diluting the Java brand both within it's own convoluted convention and the broader technology market. Did Sun Java System Web Proxy Server have any Java in it at all? Did it manage the proxies of a Java web server or any web server? And if Sun was not going to use the Java brand to describe Java technologies, why would anyone els

  47. The #8 Reason that Sun is Setting: by mzs · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Fumbling Jini

    Just an aside...

    Before I go any further, let me just admit up front that I have a specific software bias in my perspective. Most bean-counter analysts will rightly say that the primary reason for Sun to be setting is that we didn't keep our stock price up and that we could have through a variety of financial measures, most notably more lay-offs. But in my opinion, the ability to keep the stock price up is directly related to how a company exploits all its market advantages over time, and I believe that the primary failures for Sun are in the areas of exploiting its software assets, not in a lack of aggressive job cuts.

    Building to the "Next Big Thing"

    When I joined Sun in January of 1997, Java technology had already transformed Sun from a technical workstation and server company into a software powerhouse. The 1997 JavaONE conference was the largest software developer conference ever held at the time. And Sun was charting an aggressive course for the technology, introducing Java Beans, JDBC, Abstract Windowing Toolkit (AWT), PersonalJava, EmbeddedJava, JavaCard, Enterprise Java Beans, Java Naming and Directory Interfaces, and on and on. And we quietly introduced something called Remote Method Invocation, or RMI. Interestingly, RMI, (along with another interface called Java Native Interface, or JNI), was one of the two aspects of Java 1.1 that Microsoft found so threatening that they refused to implement them in their Java 1.1.4 runtime, causing Sun to sue Microsoft over breach of contract.

    RMI is actually a relatively innocuous technology that allows the Java software components (called "objects") in one Java environment (called a "virtual machine", or VM) to talk to Java objects running in another VM. This type of process enables something called "distributed computing", a concept that had been around for years in various forms (some of the more common ones were Common Object Request Broker Architecture, or CORBA, and Microsoft's own Component Object Model Plus, or COM+). Distributed computing enabled software systems to become distributed around a network and still cooperate in solving a given compute task. RMI introduced a Java-specific way to accomplish this and it turns out that by having the same type of objects on both sides of a distributed computing model, the whole process became much simpler and more powerful (CORBA and COM+ allowed objects of different types, like Visual Basic and COBOL, to talk to one another and required a complex set of request brokers and foreknowledge of the application in order to work). What was needed was some form of dynamic finding service where Java objects could register themselves and, using Java-specific capabilities like Reflection and Introspection, determine how to interact with one another at run-time.

    Jini Jumps out of the Wrong Bottle

    In 1998, Sun introduced something we called Jini. According to and interview with Bill Joy in Wired Magazine, "The Net made it possible. Java made it doable. Jini might just make it happen". What was "it"? It was the idea that the Network really could become the Computer, making Sun's long quoted catch phrase a reality. It was the idea that if every computing device in a network could run Java and RMI, then creating networks of applications that could easily describe themselves, broadcast their capabilities to the network and join up with other devices to create distributed compute networks would be greatly simplified. And by doing it all in Java, it could be programmatic and automated. Jini was the architecture that made the value of Java running everywhere leveragable. And don't forget that Bill Joy was Sun's resident genius and a strong proponent of both the idea of Jini and its development.

    So what happened? How could a technology that was the brain child of Sun's resident genius and part of what Microsoft considered to be such a threat end up as a barely noticed project run by Apache? One obvious answer is that, like so many Sun products and technologies, it was a solution

  48. Well, actually, by wild_berry · · Score: 1

    He lives on the fork of spacetime where IBM bought Sun and people like using Notes.

  49. I'd put that at #2, myself. by jcr · · Score: 1

    At #1, I'd put a board of directors that not only gave Schwartz the top job, but let him keep it after losing the bulk of their market cap.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
  50. Don't conflate revenue with profitability. by jcr · · Score: 1

    Red Hat has a higher P/E ratio because their growth prospects are better than sun's. Nothing illogical about that.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."