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Why Is It So Difficult To Fire Bad Teachers?

Ant writes with this depressing story about how public schools sometimes work: "This six-page Los Angeles Times article shares its investigation to find 'the process [of firing poor teachers] so arduous that many school principals don't even try (One-page version), except in the very worst cases. Jettisoning a teacher solely because he or she can't teach is rare ...'"

4 of 1,322 comments (clear)

  1. Re:Public education... by jav1231 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Cut the teamism. Education has been fucked up long before NCLB. In fact, it is a liberal enclave and the left has used "do it for the children" as a means of gaining power for themselves and the teachers union for 40 years. We throw WAY too much money at education. Much of it doesn't go to the classroom and teachers where it should. Rather it goes to administration. Leftist feel-good cirriculums dominate and as such our kids learn to either throw a ball or drop fries. Science and math skills tank but we have happy little taxpayers who learn to vote in all the politically correct garbage they read in the "picture books" they were given in grade school. CUT the funding, limit the course work to what matters, fire administrators, and raise teachers' pay to attract our brightest to the field. Otherwise, stop bitching about education and stop using my tax dollars to fund this toilet.

  2. Cue the typical right-wing knee-jerk reaction... by tmp31416 · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    The right-wingers will blame unions, "tenure" and every other typical right-wing target.

    They will forget the fact that in the USA, teaching & education appears to be not very well valued. Nor is it viewed as a basic right (yes, I will be branded a "leftist", or as you Yanks like to call people you consider criminally insane traitors, a "liberal"). For quite some time now, in the USA, people haven't been going in teaching for the money or because it is a well-considered profession. So the best & brightest are not generally attracted to the profession.

    And then, there is the generally negative attitude towards " book learnin' " generally found in the USA, an attitude that seems to go back to the late sixties. Contrast this with the attitude that you had to go to school if you wanted to elevate yourself & better your life, attitude that seemed to be somewhat prevalent before the sixties (or is it the fifties?). What brought about this, I have no clue, but then I do not live in the USA.

    For a country that likes to view itself more civilized & enlightened that the rest of the world, the USA seems to have an odd relationship with what enables that: education...

    p.s.: I'm not saying there are no bad teachers in the USA, or anywhere else in the world. There are. But if "The System" is built in such a way that achievement or even just the will to learn & succeed are not correctly encouraged and rewarded, maybe you're just reaping what you sowed (sp?).

  3. Re:Simple answer by Naturalis+Philosopho · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Simple answer to your question: it's a free market. If you're not one of the beasts, then you can afford a private school. If you can't afford a private school, then I'd look again in the mirror and ask who the "beast" is.

    Bad teachers can't be fired because parents and administrators simply aren't smart enough to figure out who's really good and who's stupid. Make it a requirement that all administrators have had to teach for 10 years first and then maybe I'd consider giving them more power.

  4. Re:Simple answer by mrchaotica · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    How do you determine whether or not the complaint is from an unreasonable parent in a non-subjective way?

    Easy: if they're complaining that the teacher's standards (for either academic performance or behavior) are too high, it's not reasonable. If they're complaining that the standards are too low, then it is reasonable. Additionally, if the teacher is objectively wrong (e.g. "2+2 = 5") or if his standards are arbitrary, capricious, or based on irrelevant metrics, complaints about that are reasonable too. (Yes, I realize that last bit is subjective -- you can't get away from it entirely -- but the previous criteria is a good start.)

    My wife is a teacher, and she's had parents call her up on the war path because they made the mistake of believing their child....

    And so what? Your wife didn't get fired, did she? The failing grade stood, didn't it? That's a successful outcome!

    My grandmother taught in the Springfield, MA school system for 20+ years and was forced to retire early because she got beaten up by one of her students...She was told not to kick the child out of class, and to just pass the child at the end of the year like all of the previous teachers had.

    It's hard for me to discuss this without insulting your grandma. It's commmon sense that she should have kicked the brat out and failed him anyway, even if she was told not to by an administrator! What's he gonna do, fire her?! Obviously not; the entire thesis of TFA is that it's too hard to fire teachers!

    As a teacher, her job was to teach. And she should do whatever she needs to do to accomplish that, and not take any shit from anybody -- not the students, not the parents, and not even the administrators.

    In many schools where you can fail the students that deserve to fail, you cannot kick them out of the class because the main office doesn't want to be bothered with them.

    No, you can kick them out. If they end up wandering around the halls, it's the office's problem, not the teacher's!

    ...Each time my wife tried to remove this kid from the situation, so that the rest of the kids could learn, she was shot down by the administration....

    You keep repeating this argument over and over, and it's demonstratively not true.

    She had to bow to the administration becuase she was a 1st year teacher in that school corporation (4th year overall), and her job was on the line.

    No, her job wasn't on the line. If it were, the article would be wrong. If the article were wrong, she'd have the power to effectively discipline the disruptive student.

    ...now she'll be out of a job come August 13st.

    No she won't. She'll appeal to or sue the school board and win, just like the article says. If she doesn't bother, then that's her fault!

    Basically, the problem here is that in every anecdote you've given the teacher in question has been completely spineless! In each case, the solution is always the same: quit letting the lazy, incompetent assholes running the place push the teacher around! Go to the school board. Go to the court! The administrators aren't doing their jobs, so take it up with the people that can hold them accountable! The bad teachers in the article managed to do it; there's no reason why the good teachers can't do it too!

    --

    "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz