New Study Finds Flu Virus "Paralyzes" Immune System

mmmscience writes with this excerpt from Examiner.com: "A study coming out of Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, has found that the influenza virus manages to dysregulate the immune system, allowing other infections to thrive in the body. This discovery, coming at an opportune time as the world battles the new H1N1 flu outbreak, may be the first step in understanding why the flu can cause such high mortality rates in normally healthy individuals."

Comments

H1N1

[idontgno]

The stunlock hemo rogue of viruses

Re:H1N1

[Jeian]

I don't know what's worse, that you made that reference, or that I understood it.

So the question becomes

[bigattichouse]

Are there symbiotic relationships between the flu and pneumonia (or other) bacteria - where they travel together. This would allow the flu to break down the guard, bacteria to move in - and then both to be spread by the next sneeze or nose-wipe-doorhandle-grab.

Re:So the question becomes

[omris]

I would guess that it's more coincidence than symbiosis. Most of the things that an influenza virus would find helpful would also be helpful to, say, Streptococcus pneumoniae. Since most infectious organisms are vulnerable to similar immune system defenses, shutting them down just sort of accidentally helps out everyone.

But you could make the argument that these organisms evolved similarities to take advantage of just such strategies. Chicken or egg and all that.

Re:So the question becomes

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently, Ronnie Michael Smith at the Foundation for Studying Flu discovered this - it's called Glandular Proto-immune Limitation syndrome. Swine Flu is the third variant to be discovered so far, and by far the most pernicious, because it is immune to usual antivirals. It causes most fatailities among those of employable age but who get only limited excercise, with crippling consequences for businesses that do not take extreme measures to exclude it from their buildings.

Quoting RMS, "We at the FSF have created GPL3 to plug gaps in earlier GPL versions. We expect it to spread rapidly into desktops across the world, and hopefully it will allow us to target more effectively any non-compliant corporations".

Re:So the question becomes

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice.

Re:So the question becomes

[Anonymous Coward]

Are there symbiotic relationships between the flu and pneumonia (or other) bacteria - where they travel together. This would allow the flu to break down the guard, bacteria to move in - and then both to be spread by the next sneeze or nose-wipe-doorhandle-grab.

Have you been playing too much RTS games?

Re:Weird site behavior

[Anonymous Coward]

I can do it just fine and I am behind a corporate firewall and using Firefox 3.0.x on a Windows XP machine......time for somebody to upgrade to Firefox.

dysregulate?

[Anonymous Coward]

the influenza virus manages to dysregulate the immune system, allowing other infections to thrive in the body

Is this some veiled commentary on deregulation of the financial industry? ;)

Deregulation causes swine flu!

Re:dysregulate?

[HTH NE1]

the influenza virus manages to dysregulate the immune system, allowing other infections to thrive in the body

Is this some veiled commentary on deregulation of the financial industry? ;)

Deregulation causes swine flu!

Apparently dysregulate and its derived terms are perfectly cromulent.

Stop calling it H1N1

[Anonymous Coward]

That's a Chess move on my 16x16 board. I feel offended!

Re:Stop calling it H1N1

[OrangeTide]

The Chess lobby isn't quite as powerful as the Pork lobby.

Re:Stop calling it H1N1

[Jeremy Erwin]

The Chess lobby isn't quite as powerful as the Pork lobby.

To say nothing of the "16x16 chess" lobby.

Re:Stop calling it H1N1

[dudpixel]

Really? I thought it was a Range in Excel.

Re:Stop calling it H1N1

[Anonymous Coward]

I have underestimated the influence of the 16x16 Chess lobby once before, never again!

Mortality rates and the flu

[ergo98]

may be the first step in understanding why the flu can cause such high mortality rates in normally healthy individuals

They speak generally about "the flu", but then use the extreme outliers of the Spanish flu of 1918, and the worst fears of the H1N1 virus, as their examples.

My understanding was that the flu virus hits the immuno-compromised much harder -- the young and the elderly being the most at risk, with it being a day or two off work for people with normal immune systems.

H1N1 is getting a lot of attention primarily because it was outside of the norm for the flu, hitting healthy individuals hard in Mexico, although not repeating that behaviour elsewhere.

Re:Mortality rates and the flu

[Chlorine Trifluoride]

Flu does hit them much harder, but the reason that the Spanish flu killed some many young, healthy people was because it launched a cytokine storm, something that was replicated in H5N1 (remember that?). So far, H1N1 does not seem to do this, although TFA suggests that it might.

Re:Mortality rates and the flu

[Andy Dodd]

Actually the problem with the 1918 flu virus was that it had unusually high mortality rates for people with strong immune systems.

The reasoning was that a lot of people died not from the infection itself, but from an *excessive immune response* (cytokine storm).

The whole swine flu paranoia is getting out of hand, especially since so far the actual severity of the swine flu is nowhere near what people are making it out to be. I now have to eat offsite at work because all of the food that I like to eat has been pulled from the cafeteria (all self-serve foods have been pulled except prepackaged items, I almost always eat a build-your-own sandwich and a cookie).

Funny thing is, as a Type I diabetic, who is at unusually high risk for problems if I catch influenza, I'm far more worried about the health effects of this damn menu change than the possibility I might catch H1N1.

Re:Mortality rates and the flu

[ColdWetDog]

Actually, TFA didn't say much at all (surprise). Cytokine Storm has been a term used to describe the results of influenza on the immune system for some time now. The fact that it triggers the Toll-like receptor proteins isn't particularly surprising.I'm really not sure What the Big Deal TFA is supposed to be announcing. We already know this stuff and have known it for some time.

Of course, this could be Nobel quality research and it would be hard to tell, but I'm not getting all warm and fuzzies here....

Re:Mortality rates and the flu

[Firethorn]

hitting healthy individuals hard in Mexico, although not repeating that behaviour elsewhere.

The suppression of the immune system might explain the greater toll in Mexico compared to other countries. The other countries might be doing a better job at otherwise preventing exposure to the secondary diseases.

Going by AIDS - HIV doesn't kill you, it's the opportunistic diseases that would be otherwise controlled by the immune system that kills you.

Re:Mortality rates and the flu

[Andy Dodd]

P.S. Yes, I know I shouldn't be eating that cookie, but I've gotten good at calculating the insulin required for it. The other "unknown" items I normally don't eat are a whole other story.

Re:Mortality rates and the flu

[Chlorine Trifluoride]

TFA doesn't say that a cytokine storm occurs, but it does say that the levels are elevated. My uneducated speculation is that this could be caused by a cytokine positive feedback loop occuring, but being stopped by H1N1s immune system attacking properties.

Re:Mortality rates and the flu

[Obispus]

You don't seem to have understood TFA. A cytokine storm consists of an excess of cytokines, and study participants were indeed found to have elevated cytokine levels, presumably as a the response to the flu virus--although not at the point of actual storms occurring. Concentrations of toll-like receptors were found to be lower than normal, therefore indicating an immune system less resilient to other opportunistic pathogens (e.g., bacteria) that might ultimately cause the death of the patient.

Re:Mortality rates and the flu

[ultranova]

Going by AIDS - HIV doesn't kill you, it's the opportunistic diseases that would be otherwise controlled by the immune system that kills you.

Actually, HIV does kill you, if nothing else gets you first. It'll simply take long enough that the opportunistic diseases will usually finish you off first.

Re:Mortality rates and the flu

[failedlogic]

Instead of vaccinating or using Anti-Virals (like Tamiflu) is there a way to suppress the Cytokine storm in young adults? I'm not for using immuno-suppressants if that is what it needs but I'm suggesting to inhibit such a reaction (Cytokine Storm) over the short period of time that the flu lasts?

Re:Mortality rates and the flu

[smchris]

Exactly, cytokine storm in 1918. Why it killed people of typical military age with strong immune systems. And why this is nothing like that and a mass hysteria.

I would say it is our media distracting us from the depression, Wall Street theft and war crimes, but the BBC and BFM-TV, Paris, are running it a lot too. I think we are seeing the sociological phenomenon of a genuine global mass hysteria of an interesting kind that is being fueled by the media. Maybe it is less threatening to get hysterical over the flu than it is to get hysterical over global economic meltdown?

Re:Mortality rates and the flu

[Telepathetic Man]

Let them go nuts. The common slashdotter will be sitting at home relaxing (a.k.a. coding in the basement) and waiting it out.

Scorpion and the frog

[mc1138]

I find it interesting that a virus essentially shuts down the hosts ability to protect itself essentially killing the host. The more deadly the virus often the least likely it's able to spread. Even spreading, the majority of the virus inside the host will die. It reminds me of the story of the Scorpion and the frog, where the frog carries the scorpion across only to be stung halfway across dooming them both. The scorpions only retort is that its in his nature to do so.

Re:Scorpion and the frog

[speedtux]

Let's not get overly dramatic here: most people infected with the flu will feel miserable for a week and then they'll be fine.

Re:Scorpion and the frog

[HTH NE1]

It reminds me of the story of the Scorpion and the frog, where the frog carries the scorpion across only to be stung halfway across dooming them both. The scorpions only retort is that its in his nature to do so.

And that's all that I need to know about The Crying Game.

(I know the parable is older than that movie. Some versions have it as a turtle instead of a frog, but it always seems to involve a scorpion.)

Re:Scorpion and the frog

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's not get underly-dramatic here. Precautions need to be taken to prevent virulent forms of the flu to spreading to at risk populations such as the very young, elderly, and immune-compromised.

Re:Scorpion and the frog

[fractoid]

(I know the parable is older than that movie. Some versions have it as a turtle instead of a frog, but it always seems to involve a scorpion.)

That's because squirrels don't sting. Duh.

So it's like...HIV?

[Smidge207]

Remember HIV? It's back! In flu form!

=Smidge=

Re:So it's like...HIV?

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought you were done with /.. What happened?

Re:So it's like...HIV?

[Anonymous Coward]

The loader people yell about leaving, the lower the possibility that they will. I believe it uses an inverse square law.

Was it really the flu?

[Hoyty1]

I always wondered why people who get the flu have such widely varying symptoms. This offers me a bit of incite, especially with my powers of wild speculation!

I've never had a doctor specifically tell me I had the flu but being the average Joe that I am I'll believe just about anything someone tells me. As long as they do it with authority! So it always seemed strange to me that my "flus" have had ranges of the sniffles to constant vomiting and other such disgusting bodily functions. Maybe it's because the flu caused something else lurking about to gain a foothold and attack with the vigor of a cracked out wookie.

Re:Was it really the flu?

[omris]

Constant vomiting is not likely to be caused by an influenza virus. People call a lot of different things a "stomach flu" but that's really a misnomer. It has nothing to do with influenza. And one of the reasons that people don't frequently look into it any more than "stomach flu" is that it doesn't make a huge amount of difference what caused it, both the symptoms and treatment are the same: get lots of fluid and eventually it will go away. Or you'll die, which is a very unpleasant but thankfully small subset of going away.

Re:Was it really the flu?

[Anonymous Coward]

This offers me a bit of incite, especially with my powers of wild speculation!

"Incite" and "insight" are two different words. You used the wrong one.

(Bonus tip: though "site", "cite", and "sight" are all different words, "insite" isn't a word.)

Re:Was it really the flu?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or he meant what he wrote.

"Incite:

motivate: give an incentive for action"

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3A+incite&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=

As in: "This motivates me, especially with my powers of wild speculation!"

Re:Was it really the flu?

[tepples]

"Incite" and "insight" are two different words.

Then would "inciteful" mean "flamebait"?

ScienceFUD

[DynaSoar]

"the influenza virus manages to dysregulate the immune system"

is very different from

"they also found a decreased response of toll-like receptors, which activate immune cell responses as a result of invading microbes."

The latter is not only an accurate accounting of the result, it doesn't overgeneralize the implications. The mechanism studied is only part of the highly complex immune system. The results do not suggest, as does the headline, that the entire immune system gets hosed.

Re:ScienceFUD

[Anonymous Coward]

FWIW, the original paper's [note PDF] headline is this:

"Immune dysregulation in severe inïuenza."

Secondary infections

[physburn]

Its been known for a long time, that people with flu, are prone to bacteria and secondary infections, e.g. when flu gets a completion of pneumonia via bacteria. The article didn't mention a mechanism for the weekening of the immune system, perphaps its just that its to busy with the existing flu.

Flu Feed at Feed Distillerr

Re:Secondary infections

[MichaelSmith]

Its been known for a long time, that people with flu, are prone to bacteria and secondary infections, e.g. when flu gets a completion of pneumonia via bacteria. The article didn't mention a mechanism for the weekening of the immune system, perphaps its just that its to busy with the existing flu.

Flu Feed at Feed Distillerr

Thats interesting because my 13 year old nephew has just been diagnosed with Fungal Meningitis. He doesn't have any condition which might have suppressed his immune system but I suppose it is possible that a spore got lucky and infected him while he was down with flu.

Most virus do this

[Anonymous Coward]

Most virus have evolved the ability to cause the expression of proteins that impair host immune response.

Nothing new here, as usual, from CHOP.

NOT NEWS

[TheMeuge]

May I be the first one to suggest that this is not news?

Most viruses combat the immune system... especially the innate immune system, which is largely responsible for the cytokine response. They have to, or the infection would never progress to clinical stages.

Influenza is not an exception, and there is a mountain of literature about flu's ability to suppress innate immunity. There's hundreds of papers about influenza's ability to supress NF-kappaB, type I interferon, etc...

Re:NOT NEWS

[StikyPad]

Well since TFA and TF Study compared the flu with other illnesses, I believe they're saying the flu is particularly adept at the job.

Swine Flu BS

[XPeter]

The "Swine Flu" is being blown out of proportions in terms of it's severity so that all the big drug companies can get there bailout, too. The large population of retards who believe everything they hear from the mainstream media get scared, thus causing the government to order millions of dollars worth of "Tamiflu" and drugs alike. Doesn't anyone else see this?

Hold on...there's a knock at the d-%!$*%& NO CARRIER

Re:Swine Flu BS

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, a bunch of other retards believe your ridiculous oh-I'm-so-persecuted dismissal, too.

Swine flu is scary. Flus change quickly, it's already resistant to two of our antivirals, and it initially appeared to be spreading like a motherfucker. Might be it still is: the low numbers reported are WHO confirmed cases, which, by their nature, will almost always be lower than the actual cases.

Most likely it won't get bad. Might be it won't even infect anyone. But if it does, and we haven't taken appropriate precautions, we're gonna look pretty fucking stupid if our only explanation for that is your post.

Re:Swine Flu BS

[Anonymous Coward]

You are correct of course, hence the "flamebait" rating on your comment. The TamiFlu stocks have an expiration date of 3 years and the date was coming up quickly for their current stocks (note: Obama is a stock holder). The gov't want to justify forced vaccinations and have been trying for many years now. Vaccination is one of the tools for their eugenics goals.

Re:Swine Flu BS

[Anonymous Coward]

/. is one of the most ignorant places on the internet i've seen when it comes to conspiracy truth. It's like knowing anything about tech blinds them to everything else, similar to sports nuts, it's just sad :( though gladly their are a few exceptions.

Re:Swine Flu BS

[samkass]

[citation needed]

Most flu vaccination is at best a break-even business for drug companies, as are most childhood vaccines. Many vaccines have to be cultivated in a relatively high-overhead process and are then used a few times per person, if at all. The reason the US has gone from dozens of flu vaccine producers to only 2 over the last decade (leading to severe shortages in active flu seasons) is largely because of its lack of profitability.

And Tamiflu's under-utilization in Mexico is one of the reasons cited as a possibility for its high mortality rate there, and the reasons no Americans died of H1N1.

Finally, if Obama owns a stake of Roche, I couldn't find any evidence of it in his tax filings. Do you have a primary source for that, or is it just something you read on a conspiracy blog?

Re:Swine Flu BS

[Cythrawl]

Its hardly high! 25.... 25 thats all.... In the US standard Flu claims over 36,000 lives a year... so no its not high by a long shot.

Re:Weird site behavior

[sgbett]

Its because your anti-virus has been paralysed.

what??

[Anonymous Coward]

High mortality rate???

come on high is thousands, were talking about less than 300 dead all over the world

Re:what??

[oodaloop]

In the US, 36,000 die from the flu every year. The SWINE flu has low mortality so far, but TFS seems to be talking about the flu in general.

Re:Weird site behavior

[Shard.Oglass666]

Nope...up/down arrows didn't work for me either. I've been observing strange behavior ever since I uninstalled that evil Noscript.

real link to full text

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.jleukbio.org/cgi/rapidpdf/jlb.1108710v1

strangely enough

[circletimessquare]

the flu virus has also been found to paralyze the attentions of the mass media industry

A video that describes my feeling on this ;)

[Anonymous Coward]

From the people at BarelyPolitical: Joe Biden on swine flu.

Re:Weird site behavior

[sgbett]

What are you using ?

I had to hand:
-IE6 on XP
-Firefox on Linux & XP
-Safari/Firefox on OSX

and could not reproduce. (Sorry, I dont have IE7 installed)

You sure its got focus :)

Re:Weird site behavior

[WindBourne]

I have had issues as well. I am running Konqi as well as Firefox on Kubuntu. When I restart the app, things are fine. Has made me wonder if interesting javascript is out there, or if just a bug (odd that it would be in BOTH firefox and konqi).

:cough: ahhhremm :cough: AHHH CHOOO!

[bodland]

These comments have been infected with Virtual Swine Flu.

So, i guess i should stop

[Anonymous Coward]

Taking immunosuppressants so my immune system can kick this silly virus to Mars? (seriously, my immune system is a bitch, it would probably taunt HIV and laugh in it's face)

Re:So, i guess i should stop

[BlackSnake112]

Really? Lets test that. Ebola I have someone I want you to meet....

Study Very Preliminary

[gpronger]

The article in the Journal of Leukocyte Biology raises a critical point, but is based upon some very limited patient data. For instance they classify the patients studied into "Severe", "Moderate" and RSV (not respiratory syncytial virus) and controls, with each group composed of 10, 5, 6, and 24 individuals respectfully. Also, the ages were relatively broad; for severe the average was 3.4 years (0.2-12.6 years), for moderate the average was 6.3 years (3 months-12 years), and the RVS group was 2.2 years (22 days-4 years), while the controls were 6.9 years (0.5-19 years).

My point being is that the potential indication of the research needs to be picked up and validated with a more comprehensive study.

Re:Weird site behavior

[el_gordo101]

Seems to be the Javascript the site uses. Page Up and Page Down and arrow keys worked when NoScript was blocking the domain, but as soon as I white-listed it, they broke.

Wait for Peer Review

[wdhowellsr]

It's seems odd that the general acceptance of the cytokine storm creating an overabundance of T-Cell and Macrophages is now being questioned. Everything written so far has indicated that the stronger the patient's immune system, the greater the response.

I'd wait until we see a peer reviewed study in a major medical journal.

William D Howell

AIG Swines...

[geekmux]

the flu virus has also been found to paralyze the attentions of the mass media industry

No, I think they were simply out looking for a breath of fresh air. Seems the shit flowing from AIG execs really started making people sick.

Woah, wait a sec! Those "pigs" in charge of AIG "hogging" all our money? Swine Flu? Is there a connection here? Tune in later for more...

CHOPP?!?

[Evets]

Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania? Really?

Who would want to take their kids to CHOPP for a check up? That's like naming a shampoo brand LICE or a new power drink PUKE.

Re:CHOPP?!?

[roc97007]

I have that reaction to most power drinks.

Nothing New?

[Anonymous Coward]

Recent epidemiological studies of the spanish flu have already surmised that the majority of deaths did not come from the flu itself, but from secondary infection, especially bacterial pneumonia. This article is nothing surprising...

Vitamin D seems rather important for fighting flu

[vincecate]

I am convinced that Vitamin D is important for resisting the flu. It is produced in your skin from sunlight. It is important for your immune system. During the winter most people don't get enough, which seems to be why the flu is more common then. Very young and very old people get even less sun than normal and are worse hit by the flu. The same flu virus is not nearly as deadly during the summer. The recommended daily allowance of Vitamin D was calculated to be enough keep people from getting rickets but is far below what your body will produce given 15 minute of sun. http://www.virologyj.com/content/5/1/29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flu_season#Mechanism_for_seasonal_nature_of_influenza (yes I added the Vitamin-D stuff but look at the links)

For the record...

[keith_nt4]

...I work in an IT department of a hospital in Northern California. I don't wear the stupid masks, I haven't had any shots and I've been regularly going around to every possible department/area of the hospital during this whole flue scare for (and for the last eight months). I don't have the Swine Flu or whatever they call it these days. Actually so far as I've heard no one else I work with has caught it either. I hope everybody can start to relax about this!

Impossible without raw data

[Anonymous Coward]

You won't see anything of any use in any journal, without the raw data. Have a look at what this Mexican fellow is talking about. Aside from the fact that not even Mexico is capable of analysing the materials, all the scientists in the world can't determine thing one without data...

"You do not need to be very clever to understand that if CalderÃn and his physician refuse to give us a list of the deceased it must be because they hide key data that could bring down the rationale for the management of the situation with the tools of social panic. It is therefore fundamental that we know: Who were the dead? How old were they? Where did they live? What was their socioeconomic status? What was their occupation? In other words: Were their homes endowed with running water, toilet, shower, a cement floor, electricity? How many members made up their families, how many of them slept in the same room, how often did they take a shower? Were they obese? Undernourished? How often did they eat and what did they eat? When they moved around in their barrio or village, did they travel near pig farms? Was the environment in their daily lives saturated with pig or bird manure? Did they have contact with animal innards?"

http://counterpunch.org/aviles05042009.html

Alternative Explanations from CDC

[billstewart]

If you look at the CDC Research, the major cause of death wasn't actually cytokine storms, but secondary bacterial infections, such as pneumonia, which could be extra-fatal because the immune system was busy dealing with the flu. These days, we have antibiotics which can actually treat those bacterial infections, and there are also vaccines for pneumonia which may be helpful.

Also, another major reason that so many young healthy people died was because the propagation vector was US soldiers returning from World War I, crammed together in crowded barracks and getting shipped around the world and around the US, so they were the major people significantly exposed (along with people who interacted with them.) The current epidemic has different social patterns - travel is much more broadly available than it was then, though the specific crowding and degree of exposure is probably less.

Re:Weird site behavior

[Anonymous Coward]

Only able to reproduce the pageup bug at the top of the page. Hmm...

...and in other news

[Anonymous Coward]

...When will americans learn to spell? Come on!! Dysregulate? Dyslexic, anyone? The term is deregulate for craps sake!!