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Skype Billing Gone Haywire For Some Users
Cousin Scuzzy writes "This morning I awoke to 26 e-mail messages from Skype and PayPal notifying me of multiple payments for my Skype account that had been charged to my credit card and subsequently refunded. At first I suspected that this was a new wave of spam that had slipped through my defenses, but it quickly became apparent that they were legitimate messages. I then began to worry that my Skype account had been compromised. The first message from Skype thanked me for setting up their "Auto-Recharge" service which automatically purchases Skype credit when the balance falls below a certain amount. This was very suspicious, as I had never requested this service. Based on posts to Skype's forum, it now appears that there have been serious billing problems at Skype relating to Auto-Recharge for over a month. Although I believe that all unauthorized charges to my credit card have been refunded, it is worrisome that Skype, or anyone, would charge my account erroneously. Skype, for their part, has not yet e-mailed me an explanation or posted one online. This problem reinforces my aversion to automatic bill payment services that give companies the authority to draw money from my bank account at their discretion." For all the Skype users out there, have you experienced this? For what it's worth, the company's own response on the linked forum thread says that the problem is now solved.
FTFS
For all the Skype users out there, have you experienced this?
Nope!
Smivs on the intertubes!
"The first message from Skype thanked me for setting up their "Auto-Recharge" service which automatically purchases Skype credit when the balance falls below a certain amount. This was very suspicious, as I had never requested this service."
Id think the point would be moot, since once they have your card number, they can charge you any time they want anyways. Either way, whether you set up such a payment system or not, once they have your credit card, they can start charging, and I dont think legally theres any difference between taking money illigitimately WITH a payment system or without one.
But it looks like he gave it to Paypal, then gave his Paypal info to Skype.
"Sacrifice for the good of The State" - The State
I'm sure they will explain this situation right around the time they make a 64bit release for Linux... or release a version for Linux and Mac OS X that isn't horribly outdated in comparison to the Windows version.
I hate Skype in many ways, but the plain fact is that Ekiga on Windows is worse than Skype on Linux, and I never managed to get one successful call to my girlfriend or family via Ekiga.
If anyone knows of a cross-platform VOIP/webcam program that is better than Skype, I'd love to hear about it.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
Per the original posting, his credit card is charged for Skype purchases, not his bank account.
I dont think legally theres any difference between taking money illigitimately WITH a payment system or without one.
Then you would be wrong. Taking money illegitimately without a payment system is intent to commit wire fraud and taking money illegitimately without a payment system could just be a billing error. Intent is important, especially when bringing criminal charges.
It begins the Rise of the Machines skynet has declared war on humanity...
Oh Skype? never mind then
But it looks like he gave it to Paypal, then gave his Paypal info to Skype.
And PayPal will automatically deduct money from your bank account when you set up a subscription unless if you configure it not to. I had then overdraft $100 from my account when I didn't kill off the auto renew.
Posts not to be taken literally. Almost everything is sarcasm.
This happened to a friend of mine about a month ago. He got logged out of skype and couldn't get back in. Then he starts getting emails from Paypal about charges from his skype account for phone calls to somewhere in eastern Europe.
He got his account and money back but his contacts had all been wiped.
There is either a hole in skype or a piece of malware out there harvesting skype credentials. Google "lost skype account" or something like that.
Same thing happened to me; I had the automatically recharge unchecked, but the payment confirmation indicated thank you for using automatic recharge. Didn't worry too much about it, but Skype is definitely having some issues in the billing department...
Just as papal can give you a front number to hide your credit card, they should enact the ability to make that number approve payments on a time frame basis or time frame + payee basis.
-- if you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine
.. In my opinion skype is being hacked enormously. If you have a skype client open it is also a gateway to your computer. I had never put my credit card # in skype's billing database, but I DID have it on my computer in a text file, my best guess is that Skype is being massively hacked and be weary of using the skype client on your computer if you value your security.
How does Skype touch your bank account unless you give Skype the information concerning your bank account? OP was not referring to the auto-bill he was referring to the fact that the author grosses about how distrustful he is of auto-billing yet has already setup his account with his bank info stored on their side rather than doing the more 'cautious' method of not doing so and simply providing it each time.
In other words, he's calling out the minor hypocrisy in the author's statements.
Just a friendly reminder of how tenuous your status as a 21st century "consumer" can be. Quick: How many people/organizations are one simple fuckup away from making a raft of cryptic charges to your credit card? Sure, you can fight them; but it'll be a big hassle and, depending on how cooperative various parties are feeling, you may be stuck with fees, paying bills until things are sorted out, years of harassment by collections people, and/or a credit rating hit. How many more people/organizations could(and possibly already are) tacking on little charges here and there, semilicitly? Not to mention, of course, the actual criminals.
Have a nice day.
I am with Skype/Paypal Customer Service Biling. Please submit your account and credit card info hear and well ensure all refunds will be examined. Thank you
But it looks like he gave it to Paypal, then gave his Paypal info to Skype.
So now Skype can do whatever they want with his money?
I just RTFS but it looks like he gave his bank account info to Paypal, then gave his Paypal info to Skype. Technically, Skype charged his Paypal account not his bank.
"Sacrifice for the good of The State" - The State
This problem reinforces my aversion to automatic bill payment services that give companies the authority to draw money from my bank account at their discretion.
There is really nothing wrong with automatic bill payment. I do it with a secondary checking account. To which I add money when bills are coming due. They can't withdraw more than there is and I have yet to be charged an overdraft fee.
A third checking account if for my pay check and only my pay check. Everything comes out on pay day.
I am very tempted to set up a fourth account just for PayPal.
This is what happens when transactions are done based on results of database queries and/or spreadsheet analysis. One error is made, someone attempts to reverse the batch of transactions to correct the error, and makes another error. Then someone else steps in, and compounds the problem. In the end, the only way to get it back to some semblance of the correct state is to go back and run the transactions in opposite amounts from the top of the stack (LIFO).
.
This is what happens when you have technical people (especially not-so-competent technical people) handling financial transactions.
Workflow for payments and other financial transactions should come from your source document (it doesn't have to be a literal document, it can be an authorization entry, etc). The accuracy of the data capture at this point is essential. If you use a key value to grab most of the data needed, validation needs to be very strong.
Source --> Data Capture --> Validation --> Set-up of transactions --> Validation --> Execution --> Data capture of results --> Validation --> Update file --> Validation
I personally have seen many failures because of errors in validation, and the ensuing mess as well-meaning people try to correct the error. Nothing like 36 db entries and half a wasted day just to correct a single error that a user offshore made overnight, then compounded with the "helpful" input of his team members... and then the ensuing clusterfuck of explaining to the client what had happened, what we'd done to ensure it wouldn't happen again, and many, many apologies.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
I know it can be convenient, but I think it's just crazy to let anyone directly charge your CC or worse yet, your bank account.
The era of buggy software which can make enormous mistakes quickly, hacked software which is out to get you, and corporate overlords who look at their customers as the enemy, makes it far to risky to grant them such access.
I won't do it.
Even if it's a CC and you can get it fixed, it's going to be a hassle.
Absolute statements are never true
Dreamhost had an issue last year where they incorrectly billed customers to the tune of millions of dollars. They seemed to be quite up front about what happened, apologized, returned the money as quickly as possible and really tried to figure out how to not have it happen again.
There is very little future in being right when your boss is wrong.
The absolutely hilarious thing about paypal is that one of its co-founders fancies himself a libertarian who says of paypal: "The basic thought was if you could lessen the control of government over money and somehow shift the ability of people to control the money that was in their wallets, this would be a truly revolutionary shift." despite the fact that paypal is basically just an (expensive) escrow service with a frankly nasty reputation for incompetence, asshattery, and penny-ante fraud(Sorry, your account is locked, hope you didn't have any money in there).
I am afraid to have to say that the Belgian police agree with me that the situation can only mean one thing, that my password was obtained by thieves from Skype: I hold a post which means that security is a day-to-day habit, and passwords are not written down anywhere as a result at my end. My usage pattern is such that it is very clear both the fraudulent attempts to extract funds from my account and the fraudulent use of my phone subscription were not of my doing, that the data could not possibly have been extracted by any means as it has not been input in years, and that it is just not credible to put this down to a software fault as a result: telephones don't suddenly start calling the other side of the world at the same instant money takes itself into its own head to start paying itself to both PayPal and VISA. Similarly, the many other similar complainants indicate that this is not the users' fault, but Skype's. As a result, a dossier has been opened for theft and you should be hearing from the Belgian Police and Luxemberg Banking Regulators in the near future.
Actually, it can mean more than one thing. It can mean that Ebay/Skype do not employ any sort of heuristics to watch the treasure trove of unlimited VoIP minutes available to those who can hack the database of user/passwords. It can mean that the PayPal/Skype agreement is triggered by the "need" to refill each account as it is depleted of funds. Therefore, though all accounts have not been effected yet, this may be true only because there are a limited number of minutes that the hackers can use at any given time. I can mean that Skype accounts are being traded online through hacker networks. And it can mean that "automatic" payment accounts should require confirmation as a matter of reasonable security. It can also mean that a man-in-the-middle attack was used to collect passwords. (It must be a nightmare to investigate that from Luxemborg.)
Who knows, it might also mean that the NSA's telecommunications budget was skipped over in the last round of appropriations....
No. That last bit is completely out of the question.
...Free Software Project Number 3. This is just an illustration of why alternatives are so desperately needed.
Friends don't let friends use skype.
Went to use my card the next day. Declined. Checked online, I was at least $2,000 overdrawn. I noticed that the furniture chain had charged my card twice. Called the bank. She noticed who it was and said that "it definitely wasn't the first time [said chain] had had billing errors where they ran batches twice on Friday and reversed on Monday"...
I wonder how much interest they make on that...
She reversed the charge. Then a few days, the store reversed the charge. Then called me up to complain about why I'd had the charge reversed. Nice. Their claim (haha) was that I should have waited for them to fix their error. I laughed and said there was no way that would happen. Not for a credit card, and definitely not for a debit card that their incompetence/malice had managed to overdraw with their billing.
That's one thing I find somewhat hypocritical of many libertarian thinkers. Its not okay when the government infringes on your privacy, but its perfectly okay when some corporation does so.
We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
And this is why you NEVER, NEVER give your bank account information to anyone, let alone PayPal (PayPal motto: screwing buyers AND sellers since 2002)
If you must use PayPal--and I concede that it's barely imaginable that there's something you just have to buy that you can only get online and that is only sold by a site that only takes PayPal--you link your account to a credit card. Then if PayPal screws you, you contest the charge and they can take it up with American Express or whoever.
Under no circumstances does any online business get my checking/savings account info. If they don't take credit cards, I'll find somewhere else to shop. The inability to block charges from creating an overdraft and the lack of consumer protection that banks give account holders make this something that no one should ever do. Combine those faults with the dangers inherent in a recurring charge system and it's a no-brainer: don't give PayPal (or anyone else, especially anyone with as bad a customer service reputation as they have) your bank account info.
Interested in a Flash-based MAME front end? Visit mame.danzbb.com
I've had issues with this as well, and its been a costly battle because it charged my debit card attached to my pay pal, and it was so many times that its over drafted my bank account to the tune of about 500 dollars. :/
If they take money from your credit card without you authorizing it, you can contact your credit card company and request a charge back. If you already have a payment plan, however, you have essentially pre-authorized payments, which makes getting the money back much more difficult.
We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
I had something similar happen with one of my bank accounts. I had set up a new loan for a car with the same company that I had my other loan through. The only change was that I had set up this second account to auto-bill a different bank account. I then discover that they had decided to auto-bill the first account at the same time as the first. This led to a significant negative balance (because it normally had just enough at the beginning of each month to pay said bill). It took several hours and calls to both the bank and the loan company before things were fixed. It is very difficult to get money back when the people involved say that nothing is wrong.
so is it paypals fault you didn't turn off the auto renew? You need to make sure that you turn off auto renew or keep enough cash in your account to cover afew extra hundred bucks.
I don't understand why this occurrence would make you want to avoid automatic payment systems... You didn't sign up for the automatic payment system in this case, and you still had a problem.
Clearly the not using the automatic payment system doesn't help you avoid this problem. In reality, there is no way to NOT give a company permission to charge your account repeatedly whenever you pay for something online... (unless you use one of those one time credit card numbers). I don't think it is practical to advise never paying for anything online, so you always run the risk of accidentally being charged the wrong amount. The only prudent action is to always monitor your accounts to make sure all the charges are legit.
I avoid anyone dipping their fingers into my accounts and mucking things up.
Back when direct deposit was starting to become more common, a former girlfriend was paid that way and found her checking account overdrawn when they made an adjustment. (And no, they wouldn't cover the overdraft fees.)
Now sure, she shouldn't have relied on her balance statement alone, and nowadays some of us create separate accounts for those things, but it's much more of a hassle to try to track and keep accurate records and shift funds between all those accounts.
I can remember only needed a savings and checking account. Now I have those, a paypal account, another checking account to manage the paypal account, I had another account back when you could profit from poker online...(and the funds needed in each of those accounts not earning interest like they would in savings).
This should look *remarkably* familiar to some of you. http://www.counterpath.net/x-lite.html&active=4
It's clear by the number of comments looking for a 'good' voip client you may not have a handle upstream issues. The only way to actually get a handle on it is to debug the UDP traffic.
1. NATing Most home networking devices have poor support for media NATing. (RTP/UDP The ones that have decent support are cursed with firmware supporting a single VOIP provider. This is where a device you can install a Linux distro on is helpful, but only the first step. http://www.iptel.org/sipalg/ I've had problems on Cisco devices too, so don't think you can spend your way out of the problem.
2. ISP issues. I have seen ISP issues with VOIP media that does not originate from the ISP's VOIP service.
A simpler shot in the dark is to use an SIP proxy to handle the call. (STUN server) In some cases this works because the proxy goes to great effort to keep the connection alive at all times. Can you proxy a Skype call? Dunno if they support plain-vanilla SIP.
Welcome to VOIP!
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
It's okay. It's for profit.
Give ANYONE direct witdrawing access to any of your bank accounts, or they will one day use it as their personal piggy bank.
Even if you only deposit what you owe them in the accound, you will face overdraft fees.
Anyway, that is an ugly hack in the age of internet bill paying. All my bills are paid (a) on a credit card if it cannot be avoided OR (b) registered in my bank portal so I can send a payment at my leisure. The two options give me full control of who gets how much, and when.
And in the event of a dispute about the amount owed, I can still pay the rent because I only have one call to make to initiate a chargeback. I know people who got their main account emptied by Bell after an "error". If Bell cannot be trusted, who can?
You're not old until regret takes the place of your dreams.
The power rests in the ability of the individual to rectify this. He can stop using the corporation's services, remove personal information, etc.. You have no such ability in regards to the government.
so is it paypals fault you didn't turn off the auto renew? You need to make sure that you turn off auto renew or keep enough cash in your account to cover afew extra hundred bucks.
This was a long time ago when I was unemployed and living in my parents basement digging through the couch for change to pay for gas money to go to job interviews. I never said it was paypals fault, as well.
Also, fuck you.
Posts not to be taken literally. Almost everything is sarcasm.
paypal is basically just an (expensive) escrow service with a frankly nasty reputation for incompetence, asshattery, and penny-ante fraud(Sorry, your account is locked, hope you didn't have any money in there).
I can't say I've ever had any problems with Paypal - but then I don't trust them very much either. Fortunately, it's pretty easy with my bank to set up subsidiary accounts, and one of mine is a debit Visa card account to which I never credit more than the amount of any transaction I make. This is the one I have linked to Paypal, so there is a hard limit to how much they can attempt to withdraw.
The power rests in the ability of the individual to rectify this. He can stop using the corporation's services, remove personal information, etc.. You have no such ability in regards to the government.
That's the theory. In practice, lots of these companies act as complex monopoly-type webs and you are forced to deal with some of them no matter how much they suck (e.g. ISPs in some places). Just like dealing with the goverment, except that there's no way to get rid of them at all.
Virtually every company has some sort of unacceptable T's & C's - like including the clause that they can change the T's & C's at any time without notice. And they've already grabbed public goods (like easments) many years ago so you can't even set up in competition to them if you have the money.
Paypal doesn't quite fall into this category, although I have been completely unable to buy certain goods because I refuse to have an account.
I use Citibanks virtual numbers which lets me give a virtual number and then fix the amount to that number and time limit. I usually choose the exact amount as the limit and time limit of 2 months. This way no merchant can force me to use automatic payments. I have noticed that in Skype it automatically selects automatic payments for you and you need to be careful to make sure it does not get selected. If you go to the next screen and then come back it gets selected again. So you have to be careful
It's just Skype becoming sentient.
I've read several articles that tend to ramble about Skype's security. Most of it's speculation though since Skype uses proprietary software. Obviously no program is 100% secure, but I think w/ the millions of accounts, and it's history of running w/ a nefarious crowd if there was a huge security link the shit would of hit the fan by now. Still it's not a bad idea to close skype when you're not using it, and watch your account closely.
Taking money illegitimately without a payment system is intent to commit wire fraud and taking money illegitimately without a payment system could just be a billing error.
Ultimately, it doesn't make any difference for a lot of us. After all, how many of us (outside of the US) know a physical Paypal office address in their own country? I found a mention of an office in Richmond-Upon-Thames, but that's a long way away from Perth, Western Australia.
You have no redress through courts if Paypal isn't under your government's jurisdiction. Unless you are able to physically appear at their office and kindly offer to start breaking kneecaps, you have zero chance of getting satisfaction.
Your only recourse is to either not use Paypal or to limit Paypal's access to your funds.
They might not be able to withdraw any more than is in the account, but can they not still load you up with overdraft charges if they try?
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
It's not often a good idea to grant a company automated billing, but then again, some tech operations depend on it, and consumers are all about the convenience.
But, once a company ... ANY company, abuses it, you should cut them off and insist they bill you and wait, like everyone else has to, for payment.
It's an abuse of trust, and that should never be tolerated or rewarded. If the offending firm complains that to revert to old fashioned billing would be too expensive, tell them you don't believe them, since actually running an automated billing system seemed too expensive to them as well. Otherwise it would have been given the necessary resources to insure it would NEVER be broken in the first place.
But you created such an account anyway.
I'm not sure why the parent was modded troll. I believe the point here is that the submitter claims that his credit card was charged, and also says that money was drawn from his bank account. There are credit cards which essentially work as debit cards, where every purchase you make is immediately deducted from your bank balance, and your balance is your limit.
This is a really stupid kind of credit card to get. With a regular credit card, any transactions made are done without touching your money. It's a virtual line item on a statement. Got a problem? Call your card issuer and dispute the charges. It's now Skype's problem to prove those charges were authorized and nothing touches your bank account. When your credit card is tied to your bank account, any problem charges are instant money out of your pocket. You're then fighting to get your money BACK. For those who don't have (much) savings that could mean you don't make the mortgage/rent payment, you can't buy food, and so on until it's resolved.
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
Although I believe that all unauthorized charges to my credit card have been refunded, it is worrisome that Skype, or anyone, would charge my account erroneously.
Companies make errors all the time. I suggest you spend a few moments reviewing your statements when they come in. It is pretty obvious when mistakes are made, and they seem to happen most often with cellphones.
This is one reason I like to stick to paper statements. It reminds me to look at them when the bill comes in.
I am with Skype/Paypal Customer Service Billing. Please submit your account and credit card info hear and well ensure all refunds will be examined. Thank you
But you cannot trust the corporation to actually delete personal information you remove. I'd personally be amazed if they did.
(+1, Disagree)
Billing issues are common with Skype.
Read their forums and see. It has been a complete nightnare for years.
How was such a charge approved? After the first charge, your account balance should have been too low to get approval for the second charge. I don't know how the system works in Australia but in my neck of the woods if a debit card does not have the funds available the charge does not get approved.
Enigma
That's what I was wondering. I just had a problem with a gym membership where they lost my cancellation form and billed me the following month. There wasn't enough money, so I got an overdraft fee. I went down to talk to them about it and they admitted their mistake (they were really nice about it and didn't even try to screw me) and they refunded the money plus the overdraft a few days later. I would have liked to be able to set up a different account number for them to draw from that didn't have an overdraft ability, but I don't think I can do that with my bank (off to check the website...)
Being a Libertarian, I would make the argument that the individual knew, or should have known, the risks prior to making the choice of using those services. Handing out critical personal information is a great risk that shouldn't be taken lightly.
They might not be able to withdraw any more than is in the account, but can they not still load you up with overdraft charges if they try?
No, because then it becomes a disputed transaction. Although it's a debit card, it has to follow Visa's rules, so if the transaction is disputed or fraudulent, it's the bank's problem to sort it out, not mine. I can just make sure I don't credit another cent to the account until the issue is straightened out.
So far, I haven't needed to implement this strategy with Paypal, but I like to be prepared rather than sorry.
Now, should it be able to happen? No... but typically, if the merchant can't get an approval on your card, they can offline the transaction, and it'll typically go through, based on what their merchant 'type' is (a la the same thing AmEx etc use on your bills for the type of charge, i.e. 'flights', 'dining', 'goods', 'services', 'travel'). Some of these are able to get offline approvals in excess of available funds.
A little over a year ago I moved from FL to MD and I had DirecTv. I moved for a job with short notice so my fiancee and I had to move in with her mother for a month until we found a place. The DirecTv followed us to MD for free, but when we moved to our condo there was a problem.
DirecTV doesn't state it online but when you move using their "Movers Connection" you've agreed to extend your service by 6 months, and you've agreed not to move again for those same 6 months. If you do move or cancel within those 6 months they charge you the full cost of your original move plus fees...and they charge your card automatically!
Like I said there was no notice online of such a stipulation, nor did the agent who set up my original move inform me of that criteria. My card was charged $600 4 days before my wedding putting me overdrawn and causing my rent to bounce...putting me down an additional $1500...and I had to pay for some things for the wedding. When I questioned DirecTV about the agreement they said there is no place to view it online, they dont have a document to send, but they assured me that I did, in fact, agree to some silly agreement by moving in the first place.
This story is relevant to the posting because of the automatic withdraw. If they billed me that is one thing, I could call them and work it out, but instead they automatically took money off of my default method of payment simply because it was there. How is this OK with people?! Eventually I got all of my money refunded and a full apology from DirecTV for the hassle...needless to say Im with Verizon FiOS now.
This whole thing burns me up. I think Penny Arcade summed up our collective frustration nicely here. I have been working on creating a wiki to translate user agreements to plain English so we can all get an easier glimpse at the crap we're agreeing to, and the "rights" we forfeit to our utilities etc. Furthermore the site will branch off into areas where those who are commonly disadvantaged can come together to take legal action against companies who blatantly violate their privacy (like Skype did in the post) or their right to know what they agreed to (like my DirecTV situation). Government is supposed to enforce what we the people deem morally just, yet it seems that whatever the government deems legal we all assume is moral...that doesn't make sense to me. Its about time we started revisiting how we're conducting ourselves in my opinion.
That's right. However in some cases (Paypal may not be one of them)you just have to use a service: Living without electricity, for instance, is hardly an option for most people. Even if you can chose to which one, you effectively do have to give the information to one of the available providers.
(+1, Disagree)
As a sibling AC has said, the choice is not always the consumer's.
As an example, when my parents moved to this country, they did not want to get a credit card. They (quite rightly) saw that it was all too easy to fall into a cycle of debt that would be nigh impossible to escape. Yet, because they were recent immigrants and had no other credit history, they were constantly running into trouble getting services (like car rentals, apartment leases, etc.) without having a credit card. Eventually they did get a credit card and put a few small charges on it so that they could have something on their credit record.
The fallacy is in supposing that "unrelated" goods are, in fact, unrelated. In an ideal free market, one would not require a credit check to rent a car. But, the real world is not an ideal free market, and that's where libertarian thought runs into problems as it tries to apply pure lassiez-faire solutions to markets that are in fact quite far removed from the capitalistic ideal.
We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
Somehow I am not surprised. 3 times this past year (since I signed up for a Skype account), I have had to cancel and switch credit cards due to fraudulent online charges. The only common denominator I see is that I had set up Skype automatic payment on each of those cards just a few days before the fraudulent charges happened. I suspect someone at Skype is stealing the data and selling it, but I can't prove it.
My latest shiny new CC doesn't have automatic payments set up to Skype... so far so good, card not canceled yet.
Paypal is a registered bank in Luxemburg (Europe). I'd assume that they have an office there, but even if not you can file a complaint with their banking regulators (though as you probably have guessed, they are the laxest in all of Europe, though I guess they won't have a choice but to improve at least a bit).
This is true. However, logic would dictate that demand drives change. The breakdown in this system is that the mass of people really don't care enough or understand what happens when they hand their private information to a third party. As long as this remains the case, demand for stricter security systems for private information will remain low, allowing companies to neglect improvement.
I think your system would work if companies informed their customers as prominently of their handling of their handling of personal information (and their consequences) as they do of their prices.
(+1, Disagree)
Your only recourse is to either not use Paypal or to limit Paypal's access to your funds.
Which is why I use my PayPal account sparingly, and only with a credit card. They do not have access to a bank account, and never will. I can chargeback with the credit card company.
You found a utility company that's honest and up front about its prices? Where?
I had a major issue with Skype when I signed up with them in January. For $2.95 (in America) you can get their Unlimited, key fucking word here, Unlimited calling plan. $2.95 a month. I figure ok that's a great deal, low cost VoIP bandwidth maybe, so I signed up for that. Transaction went through just fine, within minutes I was calling family and friends across the country with ease from my PC.
Then my account shut down. I was talking to a relative and the call dropped. I attempted to call back, Skype came up with an error message saying I needed to purchase "Skype Credits". Which from reading the plan, I knew I didn't need. I thought maybe it was a bug or lag, so I relogged Skype, dialed again, same problem. I get more curious and hit the Skype support forum.
A few searches showed people with a similar error. Except it's not an error, it's Skype bending customers over a barrel. Apparently, there is a hidden clause, and I do mean hidden cause it is NO WHERE in their Terms of Service or any policies they have online, that states any account signed up with the "Unlimited" calling plan has a limit of 6 hours of talk time a day. Now you're thinking "ok that sucks but it's still good for $2.95 a month, free long distance, just call back the next day." WRONG. If you exceed your 6 hour limit, which YOU have to monitor yourself, your account becomes null and void. You can't use it anymore. When the next month comes around, the next billing period if you are using more than per-month payment, they will reset all accounts and you can then again use your account.. So I spent $2.95, talked 6 hours, then my account was just void for 31 days. This was not stipulated anywhere on their website and even their forum moderators who help people with technical support stated "Skype is currently working on revising our ToS to include this 6 hour limitation.".
Now again I know what you're thinking, if they didn't tell you about a policy for a service they offer, how can they hold it against you? They do. They will NOT issue you a refund, they will NOT make any exception about the matter, hell they act like the user is supposed to be psychic and know this. Granted, they may have updated their information since January of this year but at the time there were hundreds of threads on their forums about this, dozens of people out money. I had to resort to buying two more additional accounts since my first one got closed, just to make sure I had enough talk time per day. Every 24 hours the "limit" is reset so if you talked for 5 hours 58 minutes on Monday, Tuesday at 5pm EST it is reset so you can use it another 6 hours.. So my two accounts gave me 12 hours just ya know, to get around their HOUDINI-like ToS..
Last I saw several people were considering a class action lawsuit about it on their forums. If that ever happens who knows, I mean yea I know someone will mod this down and be like "QQ more it's only $2.95". Sure, that's a small fee for free long distance in North America but when you buy something labeled as UNLIMITED ya know, ya don't expect a 6 hour LIMIT.
Aw Frell this
Are you using PayPal? This happened to me via Paypal a few months ago (except it was only once) and I called PayPal and Skype customer service to resolve the charge. My money was refunded and is sitting in my Paypal account now.
Yep, closed-source has issues with security. That's why we run everything open-source. While we generally have to fix all the bugs, we definitely don't have to find them all, and users gladly submit bug reports and occasionally THEY supply a fix. You gotta love open-source!
:)
BTW, if you like using Skype and like open-source software then check this out:
http://digg.com/d1rc3e
In any case, all you Skype users please practice safe telephony habits.
-MC
http://www.cluecon.com/
The goal here is to not upset banks, so that we can attract more banks to our lovely country. Until last year, the CSSF had only shut down one single bank , and only because they really overdid it a teeny little bit.
Smaller fraudsters (such as Dresdner Bank, which offloaded Argentinia obligations to unsuspecting investors in the late nineties) were being ignored by the CSSF. The fact that the manager of CSSF and the manager of the Luxembourgish branch of the Dresdner were good personal friends probably helped somewhat too.
And forget about the courts. If you hire a Luxembourgish attorney to attack a bank, the bank will pay him double behind your back to lose your case. Moreover, many of the defrauded customers tried to hide the invested money from their tax administration, which makes them wary about raising too big a fuss about it, and the banks know that.
somone got my credit card and has been using it on skype and something called spooscard i took the phone number listed on my bill and found that spooscard is a.k.a telespoof.com so the person is into caller id spoofing. the person also like apple so I'm trying to hack into the aplle account that he used on my card and read some emails
I, too, use a Citi credit card which lets me generate virtual credit card numbers on the fly. Very handy. Set your own credit limit (up to your max) and expiry date (2-12 months from now). Once that credit card is charged once, only the same merchant can use it again.
Recently I bought something on the Internet. It would cost $78, so I created a virtual card with a $90 credit limit and submitted that. I went through the purchase on the web, but I wasn't sure it was cmoplete; the final web page gave me an "invoice" but I wasn't sure that it was a receipt. Had I finished making my purchase, or was I seeing some javascript error because I was using Firefox on Linux instead of IE on Windows? Undaunted, I just went through the purchase a second time to make sure (this time being laxer with NoScript restrictions). I had no fear that I would accidentally make a second $78 purchase, since the card was only good for $90. If my first purchase worked, well and good, and the second purchase would automatically fail. If my first purchase failed, then maybe the second purchase would work.
Very handy.
Does anyone else know any other credit card issuer that does this? I used to have a MBNA card that did this, but MBNA got swallowed up by Bank of America and I don't know if the BoA has virtual credit card numbers.
404555974007725459910684486621289147856453481154 in hex is "You sank my Battleship?"
[GPG key in journal]
Possibly unrelated, but I'll mention that today I was called by my credit card company asking about a Skype charge. When I told them I had not made it they cancelled/reissued my card. According to them, someone got a hold of a bunch of transactions, and have been using Skype to verify credit cards before making other (larger) purchases. They also mentioned that they are also seeing the same thing done on iTunes.
Something similar happened to me over a month ago. Two legit Skype charges on the credit card I have used with them. Identical, for a small amount. I hadn't made any purchases and was concerned about fraud. (Though I wondered why someone who had gotten my card info would spend it on $20 of Skype credit.)
I talked with the Skype support people, who were understanding and responsive, but not informative. I canceled my card, changed passwords, etc. Skype reversed the charges without my having to get MasterCard to do it. But they said only they would "investigate" how these charges appeared and would not give me any more information than that when I asked. So no idea if it was a Skype accident, fraud, or what. I don't use the automatic billing option.
Just don't protect your bank account!
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
You can do this yourself by getting a credit card that allows you to generate sub-accounts. Each sub-account has a unique number and can be limited to a dollar amount per month and/or an absolute expiration time. The AT&T Universal card is one example of such a card. Very handy for compartmentalizing your account (and limiting your liability) with various accounts that require you keep a card on file.
Had a similar incident two weeks ago.
Signed up for skype via iphone app. Never used it after the initial sign up. Then, two weeks ago ( about a month after I had the account), I got the emails thanking me for giving skype a paypal, and then for buying two sets of $10 credits.
The paypal account wasnt mine, and it was succesfully charged and set to auto-recharge. Also, they put down my name as 'Claren Rosenhall', which was neither my name nor the name on the paypal account.
When I contacted Skype, they told me to be safer with my password...
I contacted them a second time, and they refunded one of hte charges to whoever's paypal account was hijacked.
I contacted them a third time, and they locked my account, and then refunded the other transaction.
I contacted them a fourth time, got access to my account, and saw that the auto-recharge IS STILL SETUP for whoever's paypal account was put on there.
I haven't bothered contacting skype or logging into the account since. Their ability to handle this sort of thing is just pathetic.
Yeh fuck you!
He can stop using the corporation's services,
Check
remove personal information,
You mean the company that violates my privacy does now respect my request for removal and destroys the information? LOL
Happened to someone I know about two months ago. She was suspicious about the e-mails (one about the change to automatic billing, one about the change back), but they looked legit. I already guessed it was a screw-up on skype's site, as no money was charged. Just as bad: in any case (or was it jajah) is that they automatically click the little checkbox on automatic payment every time you make a payment via their web site. You have to opt-out every single time.
molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
The power rests in the ability of the individual to rectify this. He can stop using the corporation's services, remove personal information, etc.. You have no such ability in regards to the government.
Indeed you do, in western-style democracies.
It annoys me how trolls complain about the unresponsiveness of gov't. and all that, when they really have no concept of what a poor one is like. Try living under a strong man or a communist system and then complain about the inefficiencies of western governments in responding to the will of their people.
I'm not really sure what you thought I was talking about.
I was referring to an individual's ability to take direct action if he was unhappy with services rendered from a business entity. If you think canceling cable service because they suffered a security breach and electing privacy-minded public officials that may or may not change policy is on the same level, we must be living in different Western governments.
Anywhere that's served by the TVA. :)
Not to mention my credit card just got put on credit fraud hold because of Skype. Just found out from the credit card cutomer service that they have several people working on just skype fraud. Several hundred entries per night. My fraud hold, got my skype account canceled for non payment, and they dinged me another thirty dollars to open it again for a year, even though I didn't get a year from my last thiry dollars when they closed it, because of their fraud.
The individual can take direct action - he can organize, push his agenda forward. The same methods that the individual can use to push agendas for corporations (boycotts, PR, etc.) are applicable to governmental bodies in western-style republics.
I understand and agree with what you say. However, the main difference here is the differences in personal liberties. You generally have a large amount of personal liberty in your everyday life in the United States. Comparing your ability to influence your everyday choices to influencing legislative policy is just being obstinate.