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HTML 5 As a Viable Alternative To Flash?

superglaze writes "Jon von Tetzchner, Opera's CEO, has claimed that the open standards in HTML 5 will make it unnecessary to deliver rich media content using the proprietary Flash. '"You can do most things with web standards today," von Tetzchner said. "In some ways, you may say you don't need Flash." Von Tetzchner added that his comments were not about "killing" Flash. "I like Adobe — they're a nice company," he said. "I think Flash will be around for a very, very long time, but I think it's natural that web standards also evolve to be richer. You can then choose whether you'd like [to deliver rich media content] through web standards or whether you'd like to use Flash."'"

7 of 541 comments (clear)

  1. My Kingdom for a Datagrid Element! by eldavojohn · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Yeah, video and sound are two biggies that HTML 5 needs to get correct. No doubt about that.

    But as someone who's thrown together more than a few web applications in my time, I'd like to talk to you about what I'm really excited about--the datagrid element.

    Now, I know a lot of people are going to argue with me, but the most important tag in HTML is <table>. Every single graphical trick done to either speed up or sexify your web site is done with tables inside tables inside tables--it's tables all the way down!

    When's the last time you laid out a site without a table element on every page? Hell, it's almost always the next thing to follow <body> on my pages. And you know the code I write to interact dynamically with that table is a bitch. An unmaintainable mess. Yeah, there's probably some library out there I could use to simplify that pain but it always comes down to me messing around with advanced Javascript code trying to squeeze some more functionality into the user's interaction with that table. "Oh, I want this box to highlight red when this happens!" a user might say. Everyone wants a "simple table" with Google Spreadsheets functionality.

    So we switched a whole project to Flex once. Yeah, Flex. Free right? Not if you want the datagrid!

    Advanced DataGrid component -- The Advanced DataGrid is a new component that adds commonly requested features to the DataGrid such as support for hierarchical data, and basic pivot table functionality. Available only with Flex Builder Professional.

    Need to fork over cash for that gem. Oh, you can drone on and on about "vendor lock in" and "hidden costs" with Flash. Don't matter. Customer is king.

    My only hope is that HTML 5 presents a competitive datagrid with pivot table functionality. From their specs:

    The datagrid element represents an interactive representation of tree, list, or tabular data.

    HTML 5, I await you with open arms, hope and understanding. Improve the table element (if possible) and create a solid datagrid element. Deliver me from Flash.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:My Kingdom for a Datagrid Element! by aero2600-5 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Hold on.

      You don't have to support IE? I must know what this job is. Please? I do not wish to become known as the IE Developer Serial Killer. What do you do for a living? Seriously. I would take a 20% pay cut to not have to support IE.

      Aero

      P.S. I can't believe anyone still uses table for layouts. GP is a troll.

      --
      Please stop hurting America -- Jon Stewart
    2. Re:My Kingdom for a Datagrid Element! by MisterSquid · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'm with you on the WTF about the "tables everywhere" rant. Just because eldavojohn is stuck in 1996 doesn't mean everyone else is. Some of us read and understood Chapter 10, "Floating and Positioning," of Eric Meyer's Cascading Style Sheets, The Definitive Guide .

      --
      blog
    3. Re:My Kingdom for a Datagrid Element! by asdf7890 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Whoa, I haven't done than since IE4 / Netscape 4.7 days. I use tables for tabular data, very rarely for layout. I'm quite positive I'm not alone in this.

      More-or-less. I try to keep everything pure these days (tables only for purely tabular data) but I will often hit things that I want to do but can't do any "proper way" that works well in all the browsers I try to support (at least IE6/7/8 and FF3 sometimes with the addition of Chrome, FF2 and others if I have time to test in them).

      I use this technique in such cases: http://giveupandusetables.com/ - try to do things "right" for a while, but avoid spending hours banging my head against it when I could be using the time for something more useful.

      I would like to just be able to tell users to "upgrade to a decent browser or put up with things not looking right" instead of fighting to support older user agents like IE6 (heck, at work we sometimes even have to give time to making sure stuff doesn't break overly in IE4!) but unless you are targeting a very specific subset of people with the design that just doesn't wash, so using tables for layout sometimes has to happen.

      Often it is possible to compromise, like accepting a slightly different arrangement that can be made to work well generally without to many bad-browser-specific hacks in order to avoid resorting to a table, or accepting that things are a little odd (or just different) in some browser as it looks/works OK anyway, but again this is not always possible.

    4. Re:My Kingdom for a Datagrid Element! by Hurricane78 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      No. Because if you even so much as think about layout and design, while writing HTML, you already have proven yourself to be an amateur.

      (X)HTML is pure semantic structure and content. No layout or design involved. If you do it anyway, you are doing spaghetti hacks. Why do you think the <i> tag got replaced by the <em> tag, etc?
      CSS is the language for layout and design.

      I really like that, because it extends the MVC pattern somehow. You now can split the view into data, structure and visuals.

      I think all applications should be developed in that separated way. It would be much cleaner than to program the UI layout manually.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
  2. It has already begun by abhi_beckert · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I work at a web development company, and we are already starting to move away from flash and relying more and more heavily on javascript. The motivation is mostly because:

      a) the flash development tools are inferior to javascript ones
      b) every web programmer knows at least basic javascript, many don't know any flash. Easier to build on basic js than train someone in flash from scratch
      c) the flash development tools cost a fortune, the javascript ones are either free or very afordable

    In fact, just yesterday I wrote a javascript replacement for a flash script which we use on many of our websites. (a general purpose loop of photos, with animated transitions). The javascript alternative is smaller, faster to load, *smoother animated in most browsers*, and easier to maintain or improve on in future.

    We're also planning to do the same for other flash scripts in our code library.

    Even when we do still use flash, it's in smaller ways. We will virtually never build an entire page (let alone website) with flash, instead we'll do the website in html and then embed a tiny piece of flash.

    For example, a photo gallery will be pure html/javascript right up until the point where you click the "full screen" button. And even then, the flash doesn't exist in the page until you click that button, it is injected into the page and configured using javascript.

    There are still some places where we need flash: video, full screen, and proper file uploads. Video will be the next to drop off the list, pretty soon we'll be doing video in javascript/html, with flash loaded in as a fallback in browsers that can't do video in html.

  3. A beautiful pipe dream... by PortHaven · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Come on folks, let's be a bit realistic here. It's been what, nigh a decade, and we still do not have browsers properly rendering stuff as simple as tables and positioning using CSS, DOM, etc.

    And while granted that HTML5 may provide a nice alternative for embedding video and audio. If that's all you think Flash is for, than you've never done more than scratch the surface.

    Check out Flex, AIR, and some of the 3D libraries for Flash. Experiment with remoting. See what you can REALLY do in Flash.

    Check out Sliderocket for an example, or Aviary.