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Public Notices Going Online, Not In Newspapers

An anonymous reader tips a story up on Bnet.com about the growing trend for governments and others to eschew newspapers and post notices of public record on their own Web sites. It's under discussion at local, state, and national government levels, including in the SEC and the states of Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, so far. "If classified ads were a backbone of the newspaper business, then the very center of the spine was the public notice. Mandated by laws and courts, these often long recitations of detail were to give official notification, to any who were interested, of the legal intents and actions of both government entities and companies that found themselves under some appropriate regulation. But a growing number of state and local governments want to move public notices online to their own sites as a cost-cutting measure. Beyond newspaper economics, critics are concerned that the shift would allow government officials to effectively hide their activities from scrutiny."

22 of 75 comments (clear)

  1. Which method would get the most dissemination? by ctmurray · · Score: 5, Informative

    I think if the local paper was/is widely distributed this old method might be read more widely (people without internet access, or not visiting city/state web sites often). These can be stored in libraries and seen casually around town. But our local paper of record just closed its doors, not sure where these notices will be printed now.

    If you are looking for something specific (say you want to bid on a contract which might be announced using these methods) probably an internet site where you can search is best. But for the function of a watchdog or check on govt. both can hide information, with the paper printing less likely (it has to hid in plain site in small print).

    1. Re:Which method would get the most dissemination? by Dayze!Confused · · Score: 5, Interesting

      There was a problem when I was growing up with the "local" newspaper and public notices. They had to hit a certain number of subscribers in order to count as having put out a public notice, so they gave away their newspaper to the people that lived furthest away, others closer to town paid about $0.35. It was comprised of about 70% public notices. The whole purpose of the paper was for companies to have a small paper that no one reads that meets the requirements for public notice so they can build on protected lands and other such things.

      --
      "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." [Thomas Jefferson]
  2. "Hide"? by John+Hasler · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Sounds like a remarkably ineffective way to hide anything. Google "public notice"+site:.gov . Should be rather simple to set up publicnotices.org (or .com) if you are worried that such notice will be "hidden".

    Publishing in the Pierce County Herald, on the other hand...

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    1. Re:"Hide"? by iluvcapra · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Should be rather simple to set up publicnotices.org (or .com) if you are worried that such notice will be "hidden"

      Until the government entity takes down the notice the next day, or rewords it and claims that it was always the reworded way.

      A 3rd-party aggregator could defeat this problem by watching the government sites and capturing all the notices, but you won't know if the aggregator has good information... A way you could know a government disclosure was accurate is if a government entity published public keys and signed all of its disclosures. But this already seems too complicated for the average news reporter, let alone the average citizen, who's more likely to a digital signature a "hacker tool."

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    2. Re:"Hide"? by blackest_k · · Score: 2, Informative

      Quotes from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
      Written by Douglas Adams
      "BEWARE THE LEOPARD"

      "But Mr Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months."

      "Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn't exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything."

      "But the plans were on display ..."

      "On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."

      "That's the display department."

      "With a flashlight."

      "Ah, well the lights had probably gone."

      "So had the stairs."

      "But look, you found the notice didn't you?"

      "Yes," said Arthur, "yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'."

  3. How to easily catch changes in pages by Kligat · · Score: 5, Informative

    Firefox has an extension called Scrapbook that allows you to save to your cache entire copies of a webpage without saving screenshots to your hard drive. Your browser automatically downloads all pages from a website within a link depth that you set, and you can direct the process to be restricted to one domain.

    I spidered www.whitehouse.gov on January 20 and January 21, 2009 to a link depth of 3. I wish I remembered to do the same thing with Blagojevich's webpages before they were changed.

    1. Re:How to easily catch changes in pages by Kligat · · Score: 4, Interesting

      To clarify, this works best on pages that Internet Archive would miss--pages that use robot.txt, or that update enough for Internet Archive to miss between scans. I don't know of any feature that highlights changes between versions, but if you have both versions scrolled down at the same point, your eye should catch a difference in spacing that will lead you to the right place.

    2. Re:How to easily catch changes in pages by iluvcapra · · Score: 3, Informative

      wget(1) also does this if you want to build a daily script.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
  4. Good elements and bad elements. by JoshuaZ · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The concern here seems reasonable. Local government websites are some of the most poorly designed and hardest to navigate. I could easily see this resulting in problems not out out of malice but out of simple incompetence. Presumably regulations and guidelines should be drafted for how governments should do this. The most obvious thing is that there must be actual incoming links not hidden by either nofollow tags or anything in the robots.txt file to prevent search engine indexing. Also, there needs to be guaranteed backups and permanent searchable archives (which will in some ways make this more transparent than tiny, non-searchable notices in local newspapers). There are probably other simple rules that would be needed but those are the ones that come to mind most immediately.

    1. Re:Good elements and bad elements. by snsh · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I manage a local government .GOV website, and am probably part of the problem. Our main publication path for hearing/meeting notices is a Trumba webcalendar. They also get emailed to neighborhoods, but those lists don't have too many subscribers. Sometimes we get last-minute changes or cancellations, and we lack a tool to formally track those changes.

      Worse, it's the government clerks and lawyers who actually author the meeting notices. And they will always tend to post the bare-minimum that they have to. They will post something short like "zoning board meeting. agenda: variance for 10 Elm Street" and leave out the part about how the zoning variance is for building a nuclear reactor at 10 Elm Street. They are not interested in transparency, but in disclosing only what they have to. If they advertise more, they are inviting trouble from pesky constituents against the government leaders who called for the hearing, so they don't do that.

      We only recently started posting details/documents along with the meeting notices for our legislative body. One problem is that we had to develop both an internal app and webapp to organize and manage those documents. We have staff to develop that, but I'm not sure how a really small government (like a town with 5000 people) would cope. It would be nice if state government developed tools that local governments could use, but I doubt that's going to happen

      I think the solution for smaller local/county governments will have to come from state and federal governments to develop tools for smaller governments to use. I'm not aware of any killer FOSS applications for tracking legislative issues, hearings, meetings, and such. The software tool just does not there.

    2. Re:Good elements and bad elements. by bit01 · · Score: 2, Informative

      The software tool just does not there.

      What's wrong with a wiki? A newspaper is simply a general tool for publishing text and images. A wiki is the same except you could publish faster, cheaper and more voluminously.

      As a bonus you could use a wiki with access and revision control.

      You have no reason to use a specialized application or do a "big bang" change. In fact lots of reasons not to.

      ---

      Astroturfers and sock puppets are liars and companies have no right of anonymity. Please have the common decency to put the company you're representing in your sig and stop rationalizing deceit.

  5. Interesting by cdrguru · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Today when you register a corporation you are required to post this fact in one or more newspapers or other similar publications. Often these notices are rather expensive to post as they are not simply standard classified ads.

    Similarly, there are requirements for stock offerings and such. As well as government contract opportunities.

    Sure, nobody reads newspapers anymore but at least they are saved in the public library for just about all time. You want to find something? There is a place to look. And, for the most part, this historical record is a trustworthy one.

    Who, exactly, is archiving government web site content like this? Nobody, that's who. We are hell-bent on destroying any possibility of records for the future, and I have no idea why we are so firmly set on this as a goal. Easier? Sure it is. More relevent? Maybe. But there is no way that most of the digital information today is being archived in a meaningful manner, and what there is that is being archived has a very, very low signal to noise ratio, or perhaps more accurately for the Internet, a rather high noise to signal ratio.

    Certainly the US is so firmly focused on entertainment today that newspapers and meaningful news doesn't stand a chance. It isn't entertaining and attempts to make news entertaining are usually grotesque paradies of reality.

    1. Re:Interesting by John+Hasler · · Score: 3, Insightful

      > Who, exactly, is archiving government web site content like this? Nobody, that's who.

      Well, what are you waiting for? You think it needs doing: do it.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    2. Re:Interesting by Dun+Malg · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Today when you register a corporation you are required to post this fact in one or more newspapers or other similar publications. Often these notices are rather expensive to post as they are not simply standard classified ads.

      Similarly, there are requirements for stock offerings and such. As well as government contract opportunities.

      Sure, nobody reads newspapers anymore but at least they are saved in the public library for just about all time.

      Actually, the notice requirement varies by locality. I've registered DBA's and have worked with others registering corporations in Los Angeles County. There are actually publications whose sole reason for existing is to publish such legally mandated announcements, and I have yet to see one anywhere. The last one I used (three weekly pubs for my most recent DBA) was done by filling out a web form online and paying forty bucks by credit card. My proof of publication was three dated photocopied sheets of a crude looking advertisement and a receipt from the publisher. It's nothing you'd ever find in a library, that's for sure. I have no freakin' clue where this little rag was publicly available, but the county recorder accepted it. It's all a sham, now. A vestigial organ long since outlived its purpose. I say get rid of it.

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
  6. I sympathize with Internet have-nots by SirLurksAlot · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I mean how would you like it if you were caught in a situation where you didn't have access to public information? ;-)

    VOGON CAPTAIN: [On Speakers] People of Earth your attention please. This is Prostectic Vogon Jeltz of the Galactic Hyperspace Planet Council. As you no doubt will be aware, the plans for the development of the outlying regions of the western spiral arm of the galaxy require the building of a hyperspace express route through your star system and, regrettably, your planet is one of those scheduled for demolition. The process will take slightly less than two of your Earth minutes thank you very much.

    MANKIND: [Yells of protest]

    VOGON CAPTAIN: There's no point in acting all surprised about it. All the planning charts and demolition orders have been on display at your local planning department in Alpha Centauri for fifty of your Earth years so you've had plenty of time to lodge any formal complaints and its far too late to start making a fuss about it now.

    MANKIND: [Louder yells of protest]

    VOGON CAPTAIN: What do you mean you've never been to Alpha Centauri? Oh for heaven sake mankind it's only four light years away you know! I'm sorry but if you can't be bothered to take an interest in local affairs that's your own regard. Energise the demolition beams! God I don't know...apathetic bloody planet, I've no sympathy at all...

    The Earth is destroyed in a huge explosion.

    --
    God, schmod. I want my monkey man!
  7. This explains a lot by Pluvius · · Score: 2, Insightful

    For example, how the Vogons managed to get away with hiding that demolition notice in some planning department out in Bum Fuck, Alpha Centauri.

    Rob

  8. Consider it this way... by Senjutsu · · Score: 5, Funny

    Who reads newspapers?

    Old People

    What group is most likely to bother to read some long boring public notice and have enough free time and spare outrage to make any noise about it?

    Old People

    Where do you put things you don't want Old People to find?

    The Internet

  9. Outside repository by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This shouldn't be allowed. Public notices in newspapers serve two purposes. The first is the one mentioned, publishing the notice where interested parties can see it. The second isn't mentioned, though, and that's to create a record of the notice outside the control of the party required to post it. The notice can't be changed later, can't be quietly made to never have happened. We've already seen entities change stories posted on their Web sites when what was in those stories became inconvenient later. Yes, it's going to cost a little extra to maintain that independent record of the notices. When we make a big payment or an important one where not making it has big consequences, it definitely costs for them to give us a receipt that we can use later to prove we did pay and what we paid for. We don't accept the cost savings as a valid reason for not being given a receipt, we don't accept "Trust us, we've got a record of your payment.".

  10. Local government websites case study: Tuttle, OK by jonaskoelker · · Score: 2, Funny

    Local government websites are some of the most poorly designed and hardest to navigate.

    I second you on that!

    Take for instance the home page for Tuttle, Oklahoma: http://mirror.centos.org/mirrorscripts/noindex_new.html

    That single page is so bloody cluttered and difficult to navigate that the Oklahoma City Manager (who is an very important pesron!) had difficulty with it. See http://www.centos.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=127

  11. When the Internet has nearly 100% saturation... by illumnatLA · · Score: 4, Interesting

    When the broadband internet is treated like a utility and everyone, including deep rural dwellers has relatively easy access to it then government can take post their 'public' notices online.

    As it stands right now a good percentage of the population still do not have reasonable access to the internet or are not tech savvy enough to own a computer (i.e. many of the elderly). They should not be punished for their lack of internet access by removing public government notices from newspapers which are still easily accessible by anyone.

    --
    Web hosting that doesn't suck!Dreamhost
  12. publicnotice.gov? by DavidD_CA · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Why doesn't the government set up a specific website, such as publicnotice.gov, and require the use of that?

    Governments all over are already using internet web services such as BidSync to post their bids in lieu of other methods for public notice.

    I'd much rather have a single website to review than classified ads which may never make it online.

    Maybe there's a more elegant solution to my 5-second thought above, but we can't keep using local newspapers. It's practically a monopoly-type service for newspapers (public notices run about $200 or more in a small city because there is no competition), and one that will soon fall apart when these organizations die.

    --
    -David
  13. It's a good thing if done right, like EDGAR. by Animats · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is a good thing, but it has to be done right. Like the SEC's EDGAR system.

    EDGAR now has a user-friendly interface and a search engine, but underneath is a huge collection of raw SGML files accessible via FTP. These files stay up forever and their names and contents do not change. Many big services (Bloomberg, EDGAR Online, Google, etc.) grind through that data every day. One of my systems, Downside, does it too. There's no charge for access, bulk downloads are supported, and the raw filings are accessible. That's the way it should work.

    What you don't want is something you can only access through a search engine, with some of the information on a pay site. A bad example is Delaware's corporate record system.

    So the minimum standards for a public records system that replaces publication should be comparable to those maintained by EDGAR.