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How Common Is Scientific Misconduct?

Hugh Pickens writes "The image of scientists as objective seekers of truth is periodically jeopardized by the discovery of a major scientific fraud. Recent scandals like Hwang Woo-Suk's fake stem-cell lines or Jan Hendrik Schön's duplicated graphs showed how easy it can be for a scientist to publish fabricated data in the most prestigious journals. Daniele Fanelli has an interesting paper on PLoS ONE where she performs a meta-analysis synthesizing previous surveys to determine the frequency with which scientists fabricate and falsify data, or commit other forms of scientific misconduct. A pooled, weighted average of 1.97% of scientists admitted to having fabricated, falsified or modified data or results at least once — a serious form of misconduct by any standard — and up to 33.7% admitted other questionable research practices. In surveys asking about the behavior of colleagues, admission rates were 14.12% for falsification, and up to 72% for other questionable research practices. Misconduct was reported more frequently by medical/pharmacological researchers than others. 'Considering that these surveys ask sensitive questions and have other limitations, it appears likely that this is a conservative estimate of the true prevalence of scientific misconduct,' writes Fanelli. 'It is likely that, if on average 2% of scientists admit to have falsified research at least once and up to 34% admit other questionable research practices, the actual frequencies of misconduct could be higher than this.'"

30 of 253 comments (clear)

  1. Of course they're not all honest by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Scientists are humans too and a job won't change some humans from being cheats.

    1. Re:Of course they're not all honest by rzekson · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Moreover, you rarely become a professor at a major university or some other distinguished position only on the basis of being talented; it is much more important that you are skilled at writing and inter-personal politics, manipulative both in terms of being able to sell your research and in terms of luring grad students, junior researchers and funding agencies to work for you or to pay you. Unfortunately, the same manipulative skills you need to acquire to become successful make you potentially more capable of cheating. I don't mean to insult anyone here by implying that it will actually make you more likely to cheat; only that it's easier for you to cheat because you are skilled at manipulating others (this being said, arguably the line between skilled manipulation and outright cheating is not as crisp and well-defined as one might hope). Indeed, sometimes cheating happens unwillingly; I have witnessed it on multiple occasions, when a famous professor would write a pile of an outright bullshit in a paper; not intentionally, but because his bullshitting skills and confidence were orders of magnitude above his raw technical competence.

    2. Re:Of course they're not all honest by syousef · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Scientists are humans too and a job won't change some humans from being cheats.

      I see about half a dozen comments along those lines, but giving up and saying "c'est la vie" isn't constructive. Our scientific systems and institutions should have better checks and balances. Many jobs/professions including monitoring and auditing to prevent corruption as standard. Some are better, some are worse. Regardless, the checks and balances on scientists exist but are antiquated an ineffective. The institutions and traditions are outdated. We can do better!

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    3. Re:Of course they're not all honest by ColdWetDog · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Our scientific systems and institutions should have better checks and balances.

      They do: science. While you can game the system (grants, publications, fame and fortune) you can't game science forever. If it's real, it's repeatable. Somebody can do it (if it's important enough). If it's not important enough and the information gets stuffed in some hard drive somewhere - no big deal.

      Sure, money can be wasted. People can be injured. Reputations can be trashed. But in the end if it's real and important someone else will look into it and either confirm or deny it. It may take years or decades, but it will happen.

      | Patience.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    4. Re:Of course they're not all honest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There's also the case, common among undergrads, where the results of the experiment are already known. Suppose your experiment is testing the law of conservation of momentum. You have a few hours of lab time and they won't let you have more if you make a mistake. You get home and start analyzing your data only to find that *gasp* the law of conservation of momentum appears to have been suspended at your lab bench for a few hours. Neither claiming that you've cracked physics nor that this is obviously a case of human error makes an acceptable lab report.

      In the "real" scientific world, maybe scientists aren't under quite so much pressure to find the "right" results, but often, only just a little bit less. They've incorporated a mindset throughout school that the "right" results are important to their superiours and, like the undergrad, their access to lab time is limited.

      So you find an excuse to dismiss an inconvenient outlier, you apply a magical fudge factor which you can't explain, or you guess about what human error could have done to the data and you try to compensate for it. It's intellectual dishonesty, no doubt, but it's inevitable in a system where our method of laboratory education emphasizes confirmation of "known" science and punishes students whose data appears to deviate.

    5. Re:Of course they're not all honest by iris-n · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So what you suggest? To accept the report of your undergrad that he violated the law of conservation of momentum? Or another that violated the conservation of energy?

      Deviations from the laws are interesting, in that you can go find out why your experiment deviated, and learn a lot in the process. You don't learn anything if you just assume your experiment went wrong because of x, and leave it that way. You do the experiment again to check if it was what you imagined.

      I'm talking as someone who has plenty of times repeated his experiments. I don't know what rock you live under, but in my college it was just unacceptable to turn in a speculative report. Sure, there were kids that faked data so they wouldn't have to redo the experiment, and most weren't caught. Fuck them, they're just hurting themselves.

      And I don't buy the limited lab time either. The basic lab sciences are always empty, you just go there out of class time. If you are in the advanced course, it's rarer that you commit such basic mistakes, but if you do, you can prepare yourself to sleep a little less that day.

      --
      entropy happens
    6. Re:Of course they're not all honest by yali · · Score: 4, Insightful

      you rarely become a professor at a major university or some other distinguished position only on the basis of being talented

      I assume you mean "book-smart at science," in which case, you're right.

      it is much more important that you are skilled at writing

      Being able to effectively communicate your results is critical for scientists. That isn't a bad thing. There's no point in doing science if you don't or can't tell anybody what you did and why it matters.

      and inter-personal politics, manipulative both in terms of being able to sell your research and in terms of luring grad students, junior researchers and funding agencies to work for you or to pay you.

      You're putting a bad spin on this with "manipulative." Most science nowadays involves teams and collaborations; very few discoveries are made by the lone guy in his garage with a bunch of test tubes. If you are working in any area where you cannot go it completely alone, you need to be something that's an even dirtier word on Slashdot than "manipulative." On top of knowing your science, you need to be an effective... wait for it... manager (gasp!).

      As for the funding... most funding is peer reviewed. What is wrong with telling scientists that they cannot have scarce resources unless they can convince experts in their field that the research is worth funding? Can you think of a better way to fund science?

      Unfortunately, the same manipulative skills you need to acquire to become successful make you potentially more capable of cheating.

      Do you have any evidence to back this up? Good people skills and Machiavellian manipulation are not the same thing.

      It seems more plausible to me that if you're a scientist who works in a highly collaborative team environment and regularly gets funding from the bigs (NSF, NIH, etc.), it would be harder to last as a successful cheat. Somebody who works mostly solo or with just a couple of grad students can send off their results to a journal, and they just have to look plausible to the editor and journal referees. The socially skilled scientist who has a big team has to slip their cheating past the grad students who did the hands-on work. If they're attracting lots of funding, they are going to get close scrutiny, and it's going to be hard to keep getting grants if nobody can replicate their work. And if they are well networked and therefore well known, there are going to be lots of people trying to replicate the results so they can build on them.

      I have witnessed it on multiple occasions, when a famous professor would write a pile of an outright bullshit in a paper; not intentionally, but because his bullshitting skills and confidence were orders of magnitude above his raw technical competence.

      I don't know about your field, but in my experience these are the people with enormous targets on their backs. Good scientists are smart enough to recognize bullshit, or at least suspect it. And the young upstarts, who haven't been around long enough to be impressed by Professor X's reputation, see an opportunity to make their bones by taking down a famous blowhard. The system ends up self-correcting pretty well.

    7. Re:Of course they're not all honest by tgv · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Have you got any idea how difficult it is to refute an experimental outcome, at least in the less exact sciences? It's not only that you can create a gazillion possible deviations between your set-up and the one from the article (making direct comparison difficult), you will also need to run it with a pretty large subject group if you want to have enough power (making it expensive and time consuming), and then you're going to have problems publishing your article (reviewers and editors don't like null effects). In short, there is no profit in it. Most people, and researchers are people, are in it for the money, prestige, whatever, and replicating a study generally doesn't get you funding, prestige, publications. So guess what happens? The world, at least the part that does experimental psychology, gets stuck with 90% junk publications. And that's being conservative.

    8. Re:Of course they're not all honest by winwar · · Score: 4, Informative

      "Have you got any idea how difficult it is to refute an experimental outcome, at least in the less exact sciences?"

      The inability to recreate the experiment is a basic method to refute the outcome.

      If you can't get their procedure and/or their procedure doesn't work then the outcome is very questionable...

    9. Re:Of course they're not all honest by dbrutus · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Here's a sensible requirement. If you submit a paper, you submit your data and sufficient information that anybody can rerun your stuff. The whole MBH 98 idiocy was largely about how climate scientists would dance around releasing their data and methods. In the UK, if you take the public's money, you can't do that. In the US you can. The US should follow the UK on this one.

  2. Research and Development driven by commerce by erroneus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It is often cited that crappy, broken or incomplete code is often shoved out the door by business in order to meet deadlines. Quality or even truth are sacrificed for business reasons.

    Why would R&D be any different? Big business often exhibit quota and other incentives for patent filing and the like. Outside funding sources pressure even pure research activities so that they can get their hands on new technology or even for silly things like a name being recorded as "first to" do something.

    I am actually a bit surprised that the numbers aren't a bit higher.

    1. Re:Research and Development driven by commerce by BrokenHalo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It is often cited that crappy, broken or incomplete code is often shoved out the door by business in order to meet deadlines.

      The reason why R&D is different from software developers is because the latter usually don't need to present conclusions or premises to the community at large. It can (and often does) hide the source and get away with saying "no warranty yada yada..."

      By presenting your research in reputable journals, you are exposing it to the examination and criticism of your peers. Thus in theory anyone else can pick up your work and reproduce it. One aspect of Hwang Woo-Suk's work that brought about his demise was that others failed to be able to reproduce his work. Unfortunately for him, his claims were so grandiose that alarm bells rang and people started looking at his work more closely.

      The eventual fallout can be seen as evidence that the system works. We have little way of knowing how much dodgy work slips under the radar in the short term, since people don't get paid much for reproducing other scientists' work, but at least there is a mechanism where it CAN happen.

  3. Relative to what? by Subm · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If we accept that scientists are human like anyone else, we accept that scientists, like others, will make mistakes that get bigger and go more wrong than they anticipated. Some may intentionally commit fraud.

    How common is scientific misconduct relative to other types of misconduct seems a more relevant question.

    Also: What can we do to decrease it and how can we lessen its impact.

    1. Re:Relative to what? by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I respectfully disagree. Falsified data has real world effects. Sooner or later, someone will try to reproduce or modify your experiment, fail to do so and properly mock you at the next conference. Seen it happen, no pretty sight. Science is mostly self-correcting, although some crap can always fall through the system and stick around a long time until it is corrected.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
  4. Then how can we know? by Firkragg14 · · Score: 3, Funny

    But if there are so many examples of scientists providing fake data how do i know the results of the survey in the FA are correct?

  5. Really? by Jeff+Carr · · Score: 5, Funny

    And how exactly are we supposed to believe her study?

    --
    The television will not be revolutionized.
  6. Questionable research practices? by TinBromide · · Score: 4, Insightful

    and up to 33.7% admitted other questionable research practices.

    I wonder if this refers to shortcuts taken because its common knowledge, Such as, if you use water as a control lubricant, you might test its wetness, density, purity, viscosity, etc, to compare against water with a slippery polymer in it. I wonder if these "questionable" practices involved taking distilled water, making sure its pure distilled water, and then pulling the other factors off of charts for distilled water or if "Questionable" means something far worse.

    The reason i bring this up is because hindsight is 20/20 and everybody knows every mistake that they've made, if they're smart and that's what they're fessing up to.

    --
    Is it sad that I am more likely to recognize you and your posts by your sig than your name or UID?
  7. Re:Pure ignorance and clumsiness are more frequent by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 5, Insightful

    True, giving a certain "spin" to you interpretation of correctly presented data is common - but not necessarily a terrible thing. As you said, it it will be scrutinizied and filed in the big "misinterpretation" folder. As for active misconduct - it probably happens more often than reported, but thankfully gets caught internally most of the time before it is published. I can only offer anecdotal evidence, but while doing my PhD work, one of my colleagues tried to get away with made-up results. Head of department smelled a rat, checked the data and promptly fired the guy without hesitation. PhD student one day, unemployed with revoked visum the next day....

    --
    Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
  8. not surprising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Disclaimer: I'm a scientist.

    Scientist will behave much better as soon as society (or perhaps the government at least) understands that if you want reliable information, you actually have to treat your scientist well.

    Now, do not got me wrong, some countries, especially the US, invest quite a lot in science. But the problem is that the whole system is rotten to the core. It makes almost no sense at all for a young graduate to stay in a University/Institute. Pay will be low, and you have (in most countries) no job security. In Europe you either get a nice job at a company, or you go around taking post-docs for 5-10 years, hoping to get lucky. Working crazy hours with no holidays. For most, in the end, they go to a company anyway (having lost quite a lot of money in the process).

    Often you are expected to go abroad, and unless you are lucky this leaves you with no good way to take care of your pension. Then if you want to return, somebody else took your place at university.

    There is 2 ways to stay in the system: either you are lucky or you lie like hell.

    Now, people may say that if your good you do not need luck. But remember that for high impact publications you need a lot more then good ideas and good skills. In research it is perfectly normal to conclude after 2 years that your hypothesis is false. This is great science, it also is hardly publishable in a good journal. People like positive results, and the reviewer system actually encourages you to confirm generally accepted ideas, not to falsify them.

    Well, I could go on but I am sure others will.

    To be honest, I do not even get angry anymore when I suspect someone may have done something "questionable". It's just sad.

  9. I'd guess very very common by syousef · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The truth is the way that scientific institutions are set up isn't very scientific. There is definitely an attempt at oversight and impartiality but it's very easily corrupted by a wide variety of people with a wide variety of interests and ulterior motives. There aren't nearly enough checks and balances.

    There are many things wrong with the system. Some include:

    - Almost anyone can commission a study, write a book etc. and it's left to the scientific community to place value on that work. Viewed on it's own, without knowledge of the scientific community's opinion it can be difficult to tell how valid the work is. For example Wolfram's "New Science" has been largely debunked as mostly a rehash of old ideas (minus accreditation) but it took some time for this to become clear and in the meantime it was popularized in the press as a breakthrough work.

    - The only real form of moderation is whether or not work has made it into a respected journal. Other scientists are then expected to publish corroborating work etc. However, until this is done, it is very difficult to judge the validity of the work, and papers get published that are later discredited. (Cold fusion anyone?) Likewise, work that should be published is often initially rejected. The primary motivation of a lot of the scientific journals is financial gain. In fact the entire publishing system is an antiquated remnant of the last 2 centuries and doesn't belong in an Internet connected world, yet publication is still the primary tool by which a scientist's work gets recognized.

    - Speaking of antiquated the institutions, committees and governing bodies of science are about as scientific as a mother's group - it's all professional bitching and posturing for status. Real monkey hierarchy stuff. A lot of decisions get made on the basis of status. It's particularly bad for applied science professions like the medical profession where you hear stories about doctors who should have been prevented from practicing continuing for many years before being disciplined or quietly removed. At the senior level, scientists are often more politician than anything else as then need to secure funding and approval from political bodies. Then you see students who have to work their way up in status being treated like crap "paying their dues" as noted in a story posted a few days ago about a student who died in a chemical fire.

    - Speaking of status, there is an emphasis on using scientific jargon to exclude the community at large. Some scientific ideas require complex specialized language and university post graduate mathematics to understand, and so require such specialized language. However even simple concepts must be described in overly complex specialized language to be accepted for journal publication. This is absolutely backward. We should have a system that requires simplified language where possible and a layman's overview attached early in the document. Instead, reading a scientific paper if you're not a specialist in the field is an art that you learn when you do post graduate work. If you assess a published article for readability you'll find the statistics you generate tell you that it's dense and difficult to understand. There are journals and subjects that allow simpler and informal
    language but they are the exception rather than the rule and usually apply as addendum publications for applied fields. (Again I'm thinking of medicine. My own post grad work is in astronomy so I'm very much a lay reader when it comes to medicine, and when I've tried to read medical papers it's usually been an interesting excercise). Any real simplified content seems to get presented in slide form at conferences and presentations are often a better way of getting an overview.

    I could go on about the shortcomings of various scientific institutions but I won't.

    My point is that when you have a system that is so open to corruption, with so few checks and balances, and so much baggage inherited from institutions that began in the dark ages, it's no surprise that you end up with science that's much less than perfect.

    --
    These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    1. Re:I'd guess very very common by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 3, Insightful

      he primary motivation of a lot of the scientific journals is financial gain. In fact the entire publishing system is an antiquated remnant of the last 2 centuries and doesn't belong in an Internet connected world, yet publication is still the primary tool by which a scientist's work gets recognized.

      Let's not go there, lest i shall rant all evening. I am due for a pub-crawl, don't wanna miss it...

      Short version of the evil socialist scientists rant.. I do government funded research, then have to PAY a private enterprise to publish my data, peer review is done for free by other scientist, and then I have to PAY again for reprints and the money-grubbbing bastards charge through the nose for the subscription, too, so that the local library can't even afford the online access to the journal I published in. Forjudge the bastards!! Freedom for scientific publication! To the sun, to freedom, comrades!

      More seriously, the major flaw with the current publication system, is that you need positive data to even have a chance to publish. I always wished for a kind of "Journal of Negative Results", which basically gives you summaries on "see, we tried this, it did NOT work"-attempts. All the valuable work that did not work out as expected has no chance of getting published today, forcing you to repeat countless mistakes, because you have no chance of reading about previous failures.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
  10. Faking the data. by wfstanle · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Definitely they sometimes fudge their data so that it will support their theories. Scientists are human and not perfect, it's part of human nature. That is where peer review comes in. A true scientist s work has to stand up to peer review and this is where the fudging of data is often uncovered. The problem is that much of the research going on is cloaked in secrecy by governments and corporations and proper peer review doesn't happen.

    This brings to mind an incident in history where the scientist was right but his data was just too good. I'm talking about Gregor Mendel and his work on genetics. Later statistical analysis of his data indicates that it was very unlikely that he got that data. He probably got very close to the experiment result that he predicted but it was not good enough so he fudged his results. It wasn't until long after that this inconsistency in the data was uncovered. Was he right? Absolutely he was but his data is suspect nonetheless.

  11. Re:how does that compare to other profession '? by ring-eldest · · Score: 5, Insightful

    At least in science there is a built-in way of self-correction. Publish all the made up crap you want, but when no one can duplicate the feat don't be surprised when the community calls you out on it. Tell me where you go to find the guy double checking the work of the corrupt police officer or judge when they perjure themselves to ruin your life and your ability to defend yourself. Find me the people replicating every aspect of your grafty mayor's work to make sure he's not full of shit...

    I can't think of anywhere else in life that there are as many checks and double checks and accountability as in the field of scientific research. Just because no one catches it immediately means nothing. If it was fake no one will be able to replicate it. A single study proves very little and likewise does very little damage, so if no one cares enough to replicate it chances are slim that it will cause harm.

  12. Re:It's quite common by speculatrix · · Score: 5, Interesting

    when I did chemistry at 6th form college (UK term, in US I suppose you'd call it senior high?), I recall doing a practical test in chemistry (titration) where you had some mystery chemicals and a colour change. the experiment was rigged so that it was somewhat like a reaction we'd already seen, but was in fact something quite different. the instructions were to make accurate measurements first, draw the appropriate graphs and *then* speculate on the mystery ingredients.

    it turned out that we'd never encountered the particular reagents before, and if you did the test accurately you'd have realised it wasn't the old familiar reaction, but had to be something new - the figures would simply not add up. however, a significant number of people rejigged their results to match the known reaction and failed the test totally for two reasons, first being for failing to make accurate measurements and secondly for faking the results.

  13. peer review by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Can we please put a stop to all these people citing peer review as a sort of wonder cure?

    I peer review a lot of papers. And yes, it catches a lot of bad science. But most of that is just, bad experimental design, bad writing skills, wrong conclusions, uninteresting stuff, etc.

    There is nothing I can do against some smart guy who makes up all the numbers, but knows enough of statistics to make it look plausible. It is often not feasible, or even impossible to redo the experiments. I never heard anybody do that anyway (maybe because you get 2-3 weeks to do your review, whereas the work would take half a year at least).

    1. Re:peer review by ceoyoyo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Peer review may not catch the journal article, but it eventually catches the faker.

      The problem is, the public seems to think that one paper published in a journal translates into "this is true." It's not. Far more commonly than outright misconduct is studies that are preliminary, contain an honest error or are a statistical fluke.

      Journal papers are about sharing information, NOT about laying down Truth on the Record. When all the studies start consistently showing the same thing, THEN you can start thinking about believing it.

  14. gray area by bcrowell · · Score: 5, Interesting

    There's a big gray area. For instance, the Millikan oil drop experiment, which established quantization of charge, was arguably fraudulent. Millikan threw out all the data he didn't like, and then stated in his paper that he had never thrown out any data. His result was correct, but the way he went about proving it was ethically suspect.

  15. Re:Yeah... by Epistax · · Score: 3, Funny

    Check your math. I got 83%.

  16. Vice Provost of Caltech from 1994 said it best by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 4, Interesting

    From:
        http://www.its.caltech.edu/~dg/crunch_art.html
    """
    The crises that face science are not limited to jobs and research funds. Those are bad enough, but they are just the beginning. Under stress from those problems, other parts of the scientific enterprise have started showing signs of distress. One of the most essential is the matter of honesty and ethical behavior among scientists.

    The public and the scientific community have both been shocked in recent years by an increasing number of cases of fraud committed by scientists. There is little doubt that the perpetrators in these cases felt themselves under intense pressure to compete for scarce resources, even by cheating if necessary. As the pressure increases, this kind of dishonesty is almost sure to become more common.

    Other kinds of dishonesty will also become more common. For example, peer review, one of the crucial pillars of the whole edifice, is in critical danger. Peer review is used by scientific journals to decide what papers to publish, and by granting agencies such as the National Science Foundation to decide what research to support. Journals in most cases, and agencies in some cases operate by sending manuscripts or research proposals to referees who are recognized experts on the scientific issues in question, and whose identity will not be revealed to the authors of the papers or proposals. Obviously, good decisions on what research should be supported and what results should be published are crucial to the proper functioning of science.

    Peer review is usually quite a good way to identify valid science. Of course, a referee will occasionally fail to appreciate a truly visionary or revolutionary idea, but by and large, peer review works pretty well so long as scientific validity is the only issue at stake. However, it is not at all suited to arbitrate an intense competition for research funds or for editorial space in prestigious journals. There are many reasons for this, not the least being the fact that the referees have an obvious conflict of interest, since they are themselves competitors for the same resources. This point seems to be another one of those relativistic anomalies, obvious to any outside observer, but invisible to those of us who are falling into the black hole. It would take impossibly high ethical standards for referees to avoid taking advantage of their privileged anonymity to advance their own interests, but as time goes on, more and more referees have their ethical standards eroded as a consequence of having themselves been victimized by unfair reviews when they were authors. Peer review is thus one among many examples of practices that were well suited to the time of exponential expansion, but will become increasingly dysfunctional in the difficult future we face.

    We must find a radically different social structure to organize research and education in science after The Big Crunch. That is not meant to be an exhortation. It is meant simply to be a statement of a fact known to be true with mathematical certainty, if science is to survive at all. The new structure will come about by evolution rather than design, because, for one thing, neither I nor anyone else has the faintest idea of what it will turn out to be, and for another, even if we did know where we are going to end up, we scientists have never been very good at guiding our own destiny. Only this much is sure: the era of exponential expansion will be replaced by an era of constraint. Because it will be unplanned, the transition is likely to be messy and painful for the participants. In fact, as we have seen, it already is. Ignoring the pain for the moment, however, I would like to look ahead and speculate on some conditions that must be met if science is to have a future as well as a past.
    """

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  17. Re:Time to man up dude! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If you think being a scientist sucks, try working on a factory floor.

    Leaving aside your questionable assertion that being a factory worker is far worse than being a scientist, the more relevant comparison would be to jobs that require similar levels of education and competence. A compelling case can be made that the education and competence required to be a scientist is similar to that of a medical doctor, lawyer or high level engineer.

    The problem with a career in science is that it is like a career in acting. Sure, there's the super stars at the top who are doing extremely well for themselves but then pretty much everyone else is struggling just to feed their families.

    Of course, there are struggling actors who obviously don't have what it takes to be actors and there are struggling scientists who obviously don't have what it takes to be scientists. There are also, however, huge numbers of actors and scientists who are doing everything right and who are just as talented as the guys at the top but who somehow just didn't get their big break - and who, as a result, are struggling to feed their families.

    So, what's the problem? Well, a lot of young are encouraged to embark on the long and arduous path to become scientists with the belief that they will eventually command salaries on par with careers that require similar levels of education and competence (medical doctors, lawyers, etc.). Unfortunately for them, when they final complete the dozen or so years of training to become scientists, they realize that they are overwhelmingly likely to command a salary on par with mid-level factory workers.

    Eventually as knowledge about expected science salaries becomes more widespread, "the market" will probably adjust and young people who are considering careers in science will have enough information about expected salaries to choose other careers such as medicine, law, or management.

    If the USA, for example, doesn't want to be a world leader in scientific research then that's totally fine. It's unfortunate for people who have already committed to a career in science but, with any luck, today's young people will choose other careers and complaints about low pay for scientists will go away because there won't be any scientists left to complain.