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Open Government Brainstorm Defies Wisdom of Crowds
theodp writes "In May, the White House launched what it called an 'unprecedented online process for public engagement in policymaking.' Brainstorming was conducted in an effort to identify ways to 'strengthen our democracy and promote efficiency and effectiveness by making government more transparent, participatory, and collaborative.' So, what were some of the top vote-getters? Currently near the top of the list are Legalize Marijuana And Solve Many Tax Issues / Prison Issues (#2) and Remove Marijuana from Schedule I of the Controlled Substances Act (#3). For those who remember Obama's earlier Online Town Hall, it's deja vu all over again."
Hey folks, it seems that the administration is at it again. All of my posts have been removed regarding Obamas legitimacy of his birth certificate. It seems all of you that feel the same way will have yours removed sonner or later so that the ideas input portion of this website seems to consist mostly of garbage that doesnt really natter to true conservatives... How Sad Obama... You can change a leopards spots but you will never change the leopard.
Are there no abuse policy/software in place to catch this?
Even the other users like a person named 'obamawatch' is ranting about the president's birth certificate. I'm embarrassed enough for all parties involved--is this the "YouTube of the Government" to them? This is really what you say when you get the chance to make suggestions to your government?
Where's the "Ron Paul Should Be President" +75,496 idea?
I hate to say it but this might almost not work for a population the size of America. I know on a smaller scale (like in Hennepin County, Minnesota) they get useful ideas from the populace with very realistic goals. I dare say the only way this could work on a national level is to require the user to put in their SSN & birthdate for verification and banning for repeated abuse. But I don't like information going through IdeaScale one bit.
My work here is dung.
That's not going to help people articulate ideas let alone produce anything usable. Half these things read sort of like a rant. IdeaScale should implement sections like the following:
Go to corporate America and ask any CEO what he expects to see in an idea presented to him from an underling. Then you'll get an idea of what kind of data we should be seeking from people with ideas.
I mean, this site should at least try to help people from making asses of themselves and instead 90% of these posts sound like people thinking they have the floor to say whatever they want about whatever they feel like. It's not coherent, it's not helping, it's nothing but internet drivel.
My work here is dung.
But I think the fact that this issue keeps coming up shows that marijuana legalization isn't as much of a fringe, oddball, shouldn't-even-talk-about-it issue as some people seem to think. Polls are showing around half of the people in the US could go for completely legalization, and more than 70% are in favor of medicinal legalization. It's kind of ridiculous that despite the support for this issue it is still considered such a non-issue.
Hell, the numbers in favor of legalization are *much* larger than the numbers in favor of gun control, and they still talk about trying to push that through!
I agree - I'm not saying that this voting system is representative of public opinion (often petitions/etc are very bad indicators), but I fail to see why the perfectly valid viewpoint that perhaps people shouldn't be criminalised for doing something with their own bodies is cited as an example of the system going wrong.
I'm not sure what the point of this article is. It's not even referencing an article - it's just some random guy (theodp) making a comment based on what he's seen on the site. And it's a poor comment at that. Even if one believes that some (and only some) drugs should be criminalised, I don't see why this reflects poorly on the Open Government system.
In the UK, we have local elections coming up, and the main argument the Conservative leaflet made against the Liberal Democrats was "OMG, they don't want to put people in prison for simple possession of weed" as if that was of utmost importance with the economy going down the tubes. I was like "Wow, I didn't actually know that, another reason I'll vote Lib Dem then".
Also we have an online "No 10 Petition" system which sounds similar to this - it gets criticism that the Government never listens, but I think that's a good thing, as petitions generally allow vocal minorites to push bad laws. For every petition I agree with, there's plenty I'd hate to see acted on. It used to be the case that petitions were handed to No 10 in real life, which much media fanfare, causing the Government to think it must do something (e.g., the recent criminalisation of possession of adult images the Government doesn't like resulted from one such publicised petition).
"Think of all the DA's, DEA employees, prison workers that would be out of a job"
-- if you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine
It doesn't matter how more likely marijuana makes drivers get into accidents. The law as it currently stands forbids driving while intoxicated, and that could be with prescription drugs or weed just as much as alcohol.
Right, just like no one would ever but pre-made hamburgers at a markup if beef and bread were readily available in grocery stores...
Marijuana decriminalization is not simply a "stoner" issue. It's actually a very important one.
The US has disproportionately crowded jails, filled disproportionately with African-Americans, and a very large fraction of which are there on drug charges. The US "War on Drugs" has led to many many convictions over marijuana and we are paying the social and monetary cost of imprisoning lots of people.
This is not a Cheech and Chong movie - these are people in jail for doing something that is widely regarded as harmless in of itself.
So, I don't think it's any surprise when you have a very vocal segment of the population calling for decriminalization... particularly in this forum! Establishment media and other outlets for vox populi are likely to steer away from this issue due to editorial concerns - no one wants to look "pro drugs", so the issue will be touched very carefully in a newspaper.
Do _I_ think it's the most important issue? No. But then my brother isn't in jail for dealing.
policeman looks for scent of weed (distinctive when you know what you're looking for), red eyes, and smoke. If he sees 2 of 3 signs, he issues a field sobriety test. Problem Solved.
WÌÌfÍ--ÍSÌÒÍ...Í...ÌHÌÍfÍÍÍ--ÍÍÍ
It is ridiculous to assume that because the crowd opinion does not match your own that the crowd is wrong. Perhaps legalization is the correct course of action, and you are blinded by your own puny intellect.
Legalization would save tens of billions of dollars in law enforcement and prison system fees. This money could easily be redirected to proping up companies that make cars that no one wants, making the world a better place.
Here is a hint, you can't detect oxycontin from someones breath & someone abusing that shit is about 1000 times more likely to run you off the road that someone high on pot.
There is a war going on for your mind.
The War on Drugs isn't one that they can hope to win, primarily because the enemy are their own constituents.
I don't consider marijuana a desirable substance myself (and stoners who insist on self-justification beyond all rationality, go away. Yes, I have smoked, and inhaled, despite your insistence that it is impossible for anyone who has smoked to have a negative opinion on the substance) but I also know very well that criminalisation does not work, and will never work.
As a (admittedly informally, and generally fairly secretively) practicing Shakta Hindu, I could also if I wanted, claim historical precedent for my own use of marijuana as a religious sacrament. (Although AFAIK, in India at least, marijuana is more commonly used in association with Shiva, but it has been consumed as part of the worship of Kali)
Although I hold nothing against other adherents of various religions who do so, I have made the decision not to do that, as my own experience has led me to believe that marijuana is not b primarily beneficial substance, at least in the case of my own specific physiology.
I acknowledge, however, that it is not up to me to make that decision for anyone else other than myself. I further acknowledge that the plant does have certain extremely legitimate medical uses; I have advocated at least trying it with a few people I know at times, when they have been in extreme pain.
There is a certain percentage of the population (whether they are a minority or not, I do not know specifically, and make no claim about) who whether for good or ill, are mortally determined to smoke marijuana. Given their level of adamancy on this especially, it is not the place of government to make the decision for these individuals as to whether they should be allowed to smoke or not, especially considering that such a decision is usually made against these individuals' implicit, if not explicit, consent.
It has long been my opinion that the American government is, and always has been, at its' heart, a fundamentally tyrannical and insidious institution, which will, at any opportunity afforded to it, enthusiastically act as the mortal enemy of its' own constituents. The long term war that the Drug Enforcement Administration has been waging against said constituents, is in itself compelling proof of this assertion.
The DEA, in its' own defense, would likely try to claim that many of the substances which it crusades against the use of are gravely harmful; sometimes lethally so. In the cases of heroine, cocaine, and methamphetamines in particular, I would not argue against such an assertion. However, whether the drugs themselves are lethal is not the point.
The point is that it should not rightfully be the role of government to act as a parental figure for its' constituents. As adults, said constituents are supposed to be able to serve that role for themselves.
I also believe that criminalisation, rather than reducing the use of these substances, in face greatly contributes to their appeal, as it is well known that both teenagers and retrograde adults take particular delight in doing certain things, primarily when they know that said things are illegal or taboo. If many of these drugs, marijuana included, we made legal, use of them would cease to appear to be an act of rebellion, and would instead become socially mundane.
A third point is that many of the entheogens have not been allowed virtually any academic study, because of a hysterical, knee-jerk governmental approach to criminalisation. Some early work was done with LSD, yes; but very little such work has been done with other substances such as MDMA. If this research was permitted to be conducted, more could likely be learned about the drugs' drawbacks, potentially beneficial uses, and guidelines could possibly even be developed for the safe and guided use of the substances by those who still wished to consume them.
And you're using TOBACCO as an example? You do realize tobacco is a plant that grows anywhere, right? But how many people are growing it themselves to make their own cigarettes? The price of cannabis is directly linked to its illegality. After 10 years of it being legal, an quarter ounce of marijuana will cost as much as a six pack of beer.
No marijuana is not harmless, but the fact that I'm sitting here smoking it while watching TV *is* harmless, and that's why it should be legalized. I'm not endangering anybody except myself.
This all comes down to control. U.S. Congress wants to control our morals, like a modern-day version of the medieval church. This is not freedom.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Why are you under the impression that cannabis intoxication is a traffic problem? (There's science done on the subject that I doubt you're aware of)
Cannabis != alcohol. Those two drugs to not have the same issues.
Well, they don't get aggressive or overconfident, which is definitely nice. But someone going 30 on the motorway isn't exactly safe either.
Even so, I've never heard of serious marihuana intoxication problems in traffic, and I live in a country where smoking pot is legal. People who are high have better things to do than driving a car, apparently.
Doesn't matter, we put up with distracted drivers every day which are just as/more dangerous than people intoxicated by marijuana. The issue of DUI enforcement shouldn't allow us to continue on a proven failed path that is bankrupting the country and ruining peoples lives (disproportionally minority lives). Bust the people who pose a danger for reckless operation with video showing the improper operation and let a jury decide if they posed a risk.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Nice incoherent rant. +1, would lol again.
I'll address your last point there - your tax bill would go down with MJ legalisation due to reduced prison, police and court costs. Health problems from its use pale in comparison to those.
BTW, it's much more easy to demonstrate harm with those other substances. Everyone knows coke turns you into a grade A asshole and heroin turns you into a slave, but putting people in prison for using them is not helpful. Education and rehab ARE helpful.
As for the rest on health services, get a brain. Transfat is not in the same league, it's a totally unnecessary carcinogen that serves no purpose but to keep some junk food cheap. Nobody out there actively wants trans fat. Or do you? Do you just love that hydrogenated chemical taste? Weirdo. You can still have freedom and responsibility whilst providing healthcare for people that need it. Hell, look at the Netherlands, they have liberal attitudes on most stuff, drugs included, AND universal healthcare.
And yet I don't hear any suggestion that we test people for Ambien at traffic stops. Weird, huh?
Not all that insightful since you ignore the proportions here.
If beef and bread are already available in grocery stores at normal prices, but a big mac cost you a month's pay, no one WOULD ever buy them.
I have exactly one mod point left which I'd love to use in a topic like this, but I'd rather reply to you as it appears that as usual the paternal government believers on this site are sending you to +5 post haste.
1. Anybody who believes the politicians "we" elect "know what's best" for society better than anyone else should probably not be voting...or using sharp objects.
2. There's this raw and quite ugly (yes I'll use the word) elitism that runs on these sorts of sites where tech-nerdy loner types hang out. Never ending snorting and hrmphing at the stupidity of the "masses", misplaced snobbery, tortured "logic" and outright hypocrisy.
After spending 9 years reading this site and other various sites like it kuro5hin, digg, reddit, etc. I truly have come to the disturbing conclusion that despite much of the fawning over libertarian ideals (which have a nice appeal in many ways), huge swaths of the users that frequent these sites really deep down just want to be ruled by kings.
I mean here we have a prime example, the US federal government sets up a site to let the general public let it know without the distortion of lobbyists or twist of demographic surveys; what issues are important to the people that can access the site. Well the people that can access the site who are probably the same people snorting and hrmphing about the uselessness of democracy and the "masses" (which they inevitably define as everyone beneath themselves) have stated loud and clear that the main issue in their lives is the legalisation of a particular drug. An issue that is most likely the hub of a larger ideology in themselves.
But what I don't understand is why to many people here is that such a bad and embarrassing failure of the "masses" or democracy or open governance in general? Oh people want something that *directly* affects them in their day to day life legal? And they are *partaking* in the political process in a small way to try and make that happen...hahah well that's just stupid, democracy fails it!11.
And so what? How is that a failing except for lick-spittles who worship power? To those who have daydreams of central government politicians being great and powerful Lords and Noblemen who don't have time for the dirty masses silly little problems in between hunting down terrorists and single handedly "running the country" it's a problem, but only so far as it interrupts the illusion.
Democracy isn't perfect, but it isn't as bad as everyone here likes to smugly assume it is. And whatever the US federal government is...it's a bloody loooong way from anything resembling democracy or even the representative republic that it's supposed to be.
My favorite is:
"Legislate a requirement that, in any war, the military aged children and grandchildren of the president, the vice president, all cabinet officials, and all Congress members serve on the front lines in the most dangerous combat positions -- no exceptions, no exemptions."
This actually make sense
> we did? when the hell did that happen?
Congress started sneaking over the line pretty fast actually. But they sneaked because they knew it was wrong and if enough people caught em there would be trouble. By the turn of the 20th Century they weren't sneaking much anymore. By the New Deal we were plainly in the age of the Rule of Men, and FDR was The Man.
Let me set a challenge to you. Go to Congress's Thomas search engine and find a Bill at random. Open another tab and Google up a copy of the US Constituition. Since you are asking the question it is a good probability you have never actually read our founding document so do that before continuing. Now read that random Bill and attempt to locate the authority for whatever it is trying to do in the Constituition you have open in the other tab. Odds are you won't find any such authority but you will find a 10th Amendment that forbids it. Repeat this random process another nine times, recording your results. I'll bet you that at least eight will fail muster and give you even odds that all ten will fail.
That is what the Rule of Men looks like.
Democrat delenda est
You might even learn how marijuana use causes memory loss and cognitive problems. In other words, stoners forget things and can't think straight. I am sure the propaganda sites you were on didn't mention those.
Because alcohol is harmless when abused over the long term in large quantities? Please.
Oh, and marijuana does kill people, just like alcohol kills many people by impairing the users who then drive or do something else stupid.
Exactly. So you want to ban alcohol, then? Yes, that worked so well in the past...
It also kills and injures people out hiking when they step on booby traps set up by growers
Which wouldn't happen if it was legal.
when mules and dealers decide to run from the cops
Which wouldn't happen if it was legal.
and when users decide to rob people to get some cash for more pot.
Which wouldn't happen if it was legal (prices are significantly marked up due to artificial scarcity, thanks to it's currently illegal status). 'course, I also strongly dispute the idea that pot smokers are out there robbing people for drug money... harder, addictive drugs (like alcohol), sure, but pot? I seriously doubt it.
So... what point were you trying to make, again? Because, at first blush, it looks to me like you support decriminalization/legalization.
Putting the drug debate aside, online polls always suffer from two things:
biased sample and hasty generalization
A poll at WhiteHouse.gov merely reflects the opinion of those who visited WhiteHouse.gov--nothing more and nothing less. A poll at cnn.com or foxnews.com merely reflects the opinions of those who visit those sites--nothing more and nothing less. It doesn't matter how popular the online poll is... THEY CANNOT BE GENERALIZED TO THE US POPULATION AT LARGE. And it would be unwise for an administration to make policy decisions based on informal online polls.
That's why we have the voting system. Those who vote represent legal US citizens who chose to exercise their constitutional right to vote--nothing more, nothing less.
Faith is a willingness to accept something w/o complete proof and to act on it. Reason allows you to correct that faith.
I keep having to say write this. I might copy this one so I can paste it. Nah I'll keep it personal. You get used to the high. Prohibitionists like to reference this when asked about marijuana addiction. You build a tolerance to marijuana, just like you build a tolerance to some prescription drugs, such as Cymbalta, another anti-depressant drug that leaves you feeling "high" the first few weeks of using it. Your doctor should be sure to tell you of these issues, and there should be no difference with marijuana. People aren't educated on drugs. DARE is not drug education. That is a horrific bad drug scare that leaves emotional damage and bigoted views about drug users, or it's an advertisement to a curious young moderately rebellious child.
Health Freedom is almost as popular as Freedom itself.
This whole argument is a red herring. Is there any evidence that more people would drive stoned if pot were legal? I'd make an argument for the converse:
Currently there can be no widespread campaigns to stigmatize driving stoned (as there have been for driving drunk) because they would be seen as implicit approval of getting stoned and not driving. But if pot were legal you'd be sure to see a slew billboards and PSAs talking about the dangers of driving stoned.
The US Constitution gives the federal government the right to regulate interstate trade and to print money. This supports the right of the fg (federal government) to forbid interstate trade in marijuana (or anything else), sort of supports the central bank (I would say the constitution doesn't include the right to delegate the right to print money, so I think to be legal the Fed should have to have to get their decisions rubber stamped).
Of course, that doesn't explain why the fg can outlaw any drug (prescription, recreational or otherwise) within a state.
I agree regarding the bail-out, although in fact I think the argument would be that they're not making any laws with the bailout; they're handing out money to organizations that agree to follow a contract. The same BS lets the fed govt regulate any number of things (public schools, intrastate interstates, etc.).
I believe strongly in rule of law, and I think our system could have worked fine as a federation of states (in the old-school 'country' sense). However, I think the US is long past the point that it could turn back the clock and become a federation of states.
From a purists point of view, I think we need a number of amendments to the constitution, to expand the rights of the federal government from those listed in the constitution (in a limited way), and at the same time we need to commit ourselves to rule of law, eliminating all statutory law that is in contradiction with the constitution.
From a realist point of view, I think all that would happen from that is that federal power would expand and our rights contract.
Until there's a sea change in our cultural attitude about rule of law and the role of government, I think any wholesale change in our government would be for the worse.
>>>>>I'm not endangering anybody except myself
>
>>you're interacting with thousands directly and probably billions indirectly
Yeah.
So?
I want to remind you what Thomas Jefferson, founder of the Democratic Party said, "Whatever religion my neighbor may choose does not harm my body, my property, nor my rights, so I will allow my neighbor the freedom to worship however he pleases." The same principle applies to you. My smoking of marijuana while posting on slashdot does not harm your body, your personal property, nor your rights, therefore you have no justification to stop my activity here in my private home.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
It doesn't matter how more likely marijuana makes drivers get into accidents. The law as it currently stands forbids driving while intoxicated, and that could be with prescription drugs or weed just as much as alcohol.
It damn well should. If marijuana intoxication doesn't increase the chance of a driver causing an accident, then why should it be forbidden to drive while under the influence of marijuana?
(For clarification - I don't smoke weed and I never will. THC does nothing for me. But I hate seeing people being told "you shouldn't do that because... well, you shouldn't".
Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
Well duh? If pot is legalized more people would use it. They'll be more stupid people who use it,
If it's legal, you can also have proper education (which is far more effective than prohibition). In Netherland, pot is legal and many other drugs tolerated or easier to get than abroad, but the people who are stupid with drugs are mostly foreigners. The Dutch mostly restrict their pot use to weekends and parties, and don't mix them with alcohol (or other drugs, but alcohol is the big one).