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Should Auditors Be Liable For Certifications?

dasButcher writes "Enterprises and mid-size business rely on auditors and service providers to certify their systems as compliant with such security regs and standards as PCI-DSS or SOX. But, as Larry Walsh speculates, a lawsuit filed by a bank against an auditor/managed service provider could change that. The bank wants to hold the auditor liable for a breach at its credit card processor because the auditor certified the processor as PCI compliant. If the bank wins, it could change the standards and liabilities of auditors and service providers in the delivery of security services."

16 of 209 comments (clear)

  1. Oh, this sounds like a good idea... by fractoid · · Score: 4, Insightful
    TFA makes a very good point:

    What will be interesting about this lawsuit is how the court assigns responsibility for a breach at a certified business. Audits, by their very nature, are point-in-time or snapshot checks. They cannot account for the dynamic variables of business and IT operations that may weaken security over the long-haul.

    If they win this lawsuit, they're setting a dangerous precedent - anyone who at any stage has certified a system as secure becomes responsible for its ongoing security, and can potentially be held liable for stupid user errors by users of that system.

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    1. Re:Oh, this sounds like a good idea... by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      How do you guarantee that steel is the best material or that the iron won't suddenly turn liquid at room temperature?

      Better analogy would be, how do you guarantee carbonated steel doesn't turn brittle in icy waters or how do you guarantee that the wind doesn't induce fatal vibrations matching the resonant frequency of the bridge.

      Indeed, bugs do exist at the time of inspection, they are just not (yet) known. No change of laws of physics is required, only discovery of yet unknown (or underestimated) effects.

    2. Re:Oh, this sounds like a good idea... by noundi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I highly doubt that's even the case. The bank would probably have to prove that the breach could have taken place even at the time of auditing, not after, due to obvious reasons anyone can imagine. If they manage do to so the suit should be perfectly valid.

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    3. Re:Oh, this sounds like a good idea... by Tom · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If they win this lawsuit, they're setting a dangerous precedent - anyone who at any stage has certified a system as secure becomes responsible for its ongoing security, and can potentially be held liable for stupid user errors by users of that system.

      Contrary to the precedent that no matter how much you fuck up, and no matter how blatantly false your audit report is, you're not responsible for anything, including not finding problems that are there when your whole job justification is that you're there to find these problems?

      Stop worrying about the poor little techie. We're talking commercial enterprises here. The immediate effect will be that auditing companies take out insurances to cover this risk, and the price of audits goes up a little. However, the secondary effect will be that audits do, in fact, improve, because the premiums on your insurance depend on how often you fuck up and the insurance company has to pay for it.

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    4. Re:Oh, this sounds like a good idea... by asdf7890 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If they win this lawsuit, they're setting a dangerous precedent - anyone who at any stage has certified a system as secure becomes responsible for its ongoing security, and can potentially be held liable for stupid user errors by users of that system.

      IMO it depends on where the fault lies.

      If the fault that allowed the problem is a property of the system that an auditor or penetration tester could be reasonably expected to have picked up on (such as password complexity and cycling rules not being present or not being correctly enforced) then maybe the case is valid.

      If on the other hand the problem is outside the system that was audited (i.e. the breach was due to a user having stored/transmitted a copy of their credentials insecurely, or due to users/admins not being adequately trained, or due (or due in part) to software/configuration/network changes made after the audit was complete) then there is no way the auditor should be held responsible.

      In reality all that will happen which-ever way this case goes is that there will be chunks of new boiler-plate exceptions text in future relevant contracts or the auditors will charge companies more in exchange for underwriting the extra risk. At work we are currently playing piggy-in-the-middle with the agreements for penetrations testing a new system we are building for a client and there is a lot of contracts work that goes on sorting out who is allowed to do what and who (us, the DC and equipment provider, the client and the 3rd party testers) is responsible for what now and going forward - this case will do no more in the long run than to add extra items to those lists (an increase the relevant consultation fees too, of course).

    5. Re:Oh, this sounds like a good idea... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sounds like you're assuming that being PCI compliant is in fact the same thing as being 100% secure, which is retarded. They were supposed to make sure the servers were PCI compliant... that is all.

    6. Re:Oh, this sounds like a good idea... by Zerth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      PCI is just troweling mortar on a crumbled foundation. Sure, it covers all the really boneheaded stuff, like using decent authentication and applying patches, but there is no part of it that says "don't use badly made(but it is expensive, it must be good) software on a fundamentally broken OS"

  2. Costs... by Bert64 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    All it will do, is make future certifications 10 times slower, more invasive and more expensive... This bank is shooting themselves in the foot because they will have to get themselves certified again in the future and will be expected to pay a hefty premium.

    Besides, the auditor merely certifies that a particular defined system complies with a given spec at a point in time... They don't assert that the setup is secure, merely that it complies with the letter of the standard, and most of these standards are poorly written with loopholes big enough to drive a truck through.

    Not to mention that there are ongoing changes, such as patching and updates to signature files etc, do you need to recertify every time a minor change is made? A minor change could introduce vulnerabilities, for instance a security update could introduce new features and bring with it new exploitable issues while it also fixes an older issue.

    How widely do you define the scope? ideally you would include absolutely everything associated with the system, so every workstation used for admin purposes, every inch of cabling etc, this would make the scope very large and costly to deal with.

    And how about the age old question of human error? No matter how secure a system is, an error (or intentional attack) by the legitimate users could break things in all manner of ways.

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  3. Re:Kind of. by wirelessbuzzers · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I agree, but it's hard to say what standard auditors should be held to. Often, computer security audits are just surface level checks: they check your design docs and your testing methodology. And this is fine, but you get what you pay for. If a bug slips through your tests, or worse if you don't actually implement your design docs or tests, the auditors obviously shouldn't be liable. On the other hand, if there's a flaw that the auditors "should" have caught, and they don't, they should be liable at least to some degree.

    The difficulty is that full, in-depth code audits are very, very hard. Consider the Linux kernel or OpenSSL: even after 16 years of "many eyes" treatment by engineers and security researchers across the world, serious bugs keep showing up. As a result, the fact that the auditor missed something doesn't mean much, and it's not clear that a court will be able to decide whether the auditor "should" have caught it.

    I wonder if the same problem is present in other industries.

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  4. Liable for what, exactly? by getuid() · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Should the auditor be liable for mis-certification? Or for the (correctly) certified system not withstanding attacks?

    I think people should *very* hard try to distinguish between the two scenarios:

    1) An auditor certifies a system as XY-compliant as of [insert date here]. However, it can be demonstrated that the system was *not* XY-compliant at that date.

    2) An auditor certifies a system as XY-compliant as of [insert date here]. However, at a later date, the system breaks for some reason. It can be proven that the system was XY-compliant, but for some reason (stupid user interaction?) is not anymore. Or, even better: it can be proven that the system *still* is XY-compliant, but the XY-standard is unfit to defend [insert attack here].

    I think in case (1) the auditor should be held liable, since he obviously certified something that didn't meet the promised standards. However, in case of (2), not the auditor is to blame. If the system breaks despite of the certification, then it's not the auditor's fault -- it's how things work, and making a scapegoat out of the auditor is not going to do anybody any good. Even worse, if the system fails to meet standard XY because a stupid user (or admin, for that matter) interaction *after* the certification, then there's no way an auditor could have prevented that -- it's either the user/admin's fault for interfering with a certified system, or the standard's fault for not defining what a user/admin is allowed to do with the system without interfering with its certified qualities.

    1. Re:Liable for what, exactly? by Tom · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think people should *very* hard try to distinguish between the two scenarios:

      I think people should try harder to understand auditing.

      Static audits are a thing of the past. Every audit and compliance proceduree AD 2009 includes not only checks of the current system state, but in fact puts more of a focus on changes. More precisely: Change management. In a properly certified and audited system, it ought to be impossible to change the system in a compliant way into a non-compliant state. Either your changes are part of the proper change procedures, or they are not. If they are not, then you (i.e. the guy doing the non-compliant change) is responsible, because you broke procedure. If the change is OK, but its effects are not, then the change process is faulty and whoever audited it didn't catch that.

      One way or the other, you very clearly find a culprit if you include change management into your processes.

      And any auditing that (2009) gets signed off without containing change management should never have been signed off in the first place, so again the auditor is clearly at fault.

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  5. Wow by Peregr1n · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The big banks really are intent on shooting themselves in the foot. If they hold the auditor liable for security breaches, nobody else will be willing to offer certification services for PCI-DSS. And considering that it's the banks who desperately want everyone to be PCI-DSS compliant (does anybody other than the banks get any benefit from it? Really?), that is particularly stupid.
    It's hard enough achieving compliancy as it is - whenever we get near to completing the questionnaire, they change all the questions!

  6. What is a certification worth? by bradley13 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The question is: does a certification have a value, or not?

    Consider an example in a different area: accounting. At the end of the year, a public corporation must have its accounts certified by an auditor. The audit essentially states that the accounts are an accurate reflection of the company's financial state - that the accountants haven't "disappeared" a few million dollars into their private accounts, or whatever.

    If the accounts turn out to be fraudulent, the auditors have failed - and it is entirely correct to sue them.

    Back to IT certifications: if the audit missed something, then it is entirely appropriate to sue the auditors. If the security breach was not due to problems the auditors should have caught (inside job, violation of established procedures, etc.), then the auditors should not be liable.

    Consider what happens if you do not hold the auditors liable: a very current example from the financial world. The ratings agencies said that derivatives based on sub-prime mortgages were top-quality, low risk investments. Screwing up a rating costs them nothing, so they gave in to political pressure and rated these derivatives too high. Had they been liable for the consequences of their ratings, they would have done a better job. At least, one would like to think so - sadly, there is no way to go back and test this hypothesis...

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  7. They Aren't Liable Now?! by DeanFox · · Score: 3, Insightful


    A Notary Public can be held responsible but an auditing firm isn't? I would have thought they already were held liable. If they're not, what a great job! Like a Notary Public that can stamp, validate and vouch for anything without cause for concern. It's probably because the Notary is people. The auditors are corporations. Corporations are just like people absent accountability or morals. Corporations are like Sociopaths. And as they're running the show, corporations are like Sociopaths in an Anarchy.

    -[d]-

  8. Re:Kind of. by Tom · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's not that it's impossible to do in auditing and software at all... it's entirely feasible. The issue is cost - those checks (by pilots, co-pilots, et al) and required maintenance cost airlines a significant amount of money, but it is paid because: regulations say they have to, and the cost of a rash of failures is terrible PR. In the IT world, companies want to be certified, only because they have to, and don't want to spend much money on that compliance. That's totally ignoring the companies (typically small to medium sized) that don't have the resources to expend on "doing the audit right". It's apples and oranges.

    No, it doesn't.

    If you are "too small" and "don't have the resources" to fly a plane safely, then you can't play in the commercial airlines market. Tough luck, but we're all better off this way, thank you.

    Now there are other markets, where quality isn't that important, and failure not half as critical. You could become a hairdresser, for example. Could still ruin someone's looks, but not their life. That's why hairdressers do not have to check all their equipment before cutting your hair.

    And I dare to claim that software in many appliances is quite capable of ruining not one life, and not hundreds, but many thousands, or whole populations. Think of the software that drives the stock markets. Same for auditing. If you audited a bank in 2008 and you didn't notice that it's all a huge house of cards that's going to come tumbling down sometime in the near future, then you didn't do your job properly.

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  9. Sued for what exactly? by Klync · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm surprised nobody mentioned this yet: adherence to PCI-DSS does not necessarily guarantee that your system cannot be cracked or broken into. PCI-DSS provides a set of guidelines - created by the banks and cc companies themselves - which must be met in order to be considered safe enough to be allowed to process transactions. Now, if the auditor was negligent or deceptive in certifying the system as compliant, this seems like a no-brainer lawsuit. However, it is entirely possible that the system *was* compliant, but got cracked anyway.

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