China Dominates In NSA-Backed Coding Contest

The Narrative Fallacy writes "With about 4,200 people participating in a US National Security Agency-supported international competition on everything from writing algorithms to designing components, 20 of the 70 finalists were from China, 10 from Russia, and 2 from the US. China's showing in the finals was helped by its large number of entrants, 894. India followed at 705, but none of its programmers was a finalist. Russia had 380 participants; the United States, 234; Poland, 214; Egypt, 145; and Ukraine, 128. Participants in the TopCoder Open was open to anyone, from student to professional; the contest proceeded through rounds of elimination that finished this month in Las Vegas. Rob Hughes, president and COO of TopCoder, says the strong finish by programmers from China, Russia, Eastern Europe and elsewhere is indicative of the importance those countries put on mathematics and science education. 'We do the same thing with athletics here that they do with mathematics and science there.'"

Comments

Damn

[Xs1t0ry]

"We do the same thing with athletics here that they do with mathematics and science there...."

Apparently I was born on the wrong continent.

Re:Damn

[pluther]

What's worse, the quote isn't even true.

We don't do the same thing with athletics here as they do with math and science over there. In fact, they do the same thing with athletics as they do with math and science.

That is, they consider athletics to be important and encourage every child to participate in at least one sport.

We, on the other hand, idolize a very small number of top achievers and encourage every child to watch them on TV.

Re:Damn

[JeanBaptiste]

Yes, the Chinese Professional Math League (YDVF) is quite a sight to watch. Arenas filled with cheering fans watching a bunch of guys doing math and science. I still don't like the free agency rule implemented last year, but it has provided more parity between teams. The 'player' salaries are quite a bit higher actually than some of the top athletes in sports like football in other places around the globe. They truly treat mathematics like we treat athletics.

Re:Damn

[emkyooess]

You must not be too familiar with schools. Time and time again the schools around where I grew up, real educational funds were slashed in favor of building a new gymnasium, funding an entirely new sport, sending the teams to beach trips, and all other sorts of athletics pandering. Meanwhile, it took decades of tooth-and-nail fighting to get a renovation (not even new) auditorium and stage for music and drama, the arts were always scrounging for supplies, science events were always short-changed and trips cut, and math texts were so ragged they were useless.

Re:Damn

[Knave75]

"We do the same thing with athletics here that they do with mathematics and science there....

The problem is that we are overpaying our teachers.

(but, seriously, we give math and science teachers a starvation wage and provide them with little respect. Meanwhile, we pay football coaches 6 figure salaries and revere them as Gods. Are we really that surprised that we fail at math?)

Re:Damn

[Maxo-Texas]

This was true at my college in the late 1980's to early 1990's.

We built a new spiffy apartment complex for students-- and then filled it with atheletes.

They cut library publication subscriptions-- and gave more money to the athletic program.

They were desperate to break into the national scene and failed.

Re:Damn

[cortesoft]

They spend money on Athletics because Athletics makes money... at least football and basketball do, and at least at big sport schools. I went to UCLA, and while they spend millions on coaches and facilities, they make back WAY more than that in ticket sales, paraphernalia, and broadcast rights. Those profits add millions to the general school budget.

Of course, many schools (and it sounds like yours was one) see these huge profits and want a part of it... so they spend money to build up an athletics program, but fail to realize it is nearly impossible to break into the elite ranks these days.

Another sad but true fact is that a successful sports program brings in a LOT of money from alumni donors... the better a sports team does, the more the alumni will donate to the school.

Re:Damn

[BitHive]

All you need to do is ask yourself how much income does a department generate in grant money and you've missed the point of education entirely.

Re:Damn

[ojustgiveitup]

Maybe we should stop running schools like businesses and start running them like schools.

Re:Damn

[cortesoft]

That would work if we started funding them like schools... it's not as if the money they make from athletics goes into the chancellor's pocket... it goes to fund the school.. whether better facilities, more classes, or what not. Universities (especially public ones) are underfunded a huge amount... and they have requirements that they MUST accept a certain percentage of students (at least for the University of California and the California State Universities).. so they have to find funding somewhere... I would rather they have a school football team than an increased tuition...

Re:Damn

[ojustgiveitup]

I would rather we start funding them like schools. I would also suggest that we suffer from a quantity vs. quality problem that the quotas in places like California, while good-intentioned, are worsening. Higher education needs to be cheap and available, but highly selective. While I'm being idealistic, I might as well also mention that we need to stop requiring college degrees for basically any middle class job. We've saturated the job market with highly educated people, while simultaneously diminishing the quality of that education. So now, as a society, we're paying inordinate sums for lowest common denominator education, that a large proportion of people don't need and won't ever use.

Re:Damn

[ishobo]

Our higher education system rocks the world over

Based on what data do make that conclusion?

Also, why doesn't the U.S. fully fund tertiary education? Why is it not seen as a right?

Frankly, I think the U.S. tertiary system is a piss poor excuse for higher learning. I would rather stay in the EU and not worry about how I am going to send my children to college. We have many fine institutions here in the EU, including the top tier Oxford and Cambridge, which are funded around 90% for all EU residents. Saying the U.S. has the best universities is like saying the U.S. has the best healthcare. True, if you are rich.

Re:Damn

[Amiga Trombone]

Well, you might want to consider there are 1.3 billion Chinese to 300 million Americans. If you're going to consider representation as a percentage of population, Russia's performance, with a population of only 140 million, was a hell of a lot more impressive than China's.

Excellent

[Seriousity]

Given the percentage of Chinese coders in comparison to US, they still did roughly twice as good. (Cue the math pedants)

You can say it all you want

[0racle]

'We do the same thing with athletics here that they do with mathematics and science there.'

Thats nice, and I believe it's disgusting how athletics are held here, but the public has made it abundantly clear that's they way they want it. I, for one, would like to welcome our new Chinese overlords.

Re:You can say it all you want

[JCSoRocks]

Oh, sure, like drunken sports fans and tubby couch coaches aren't going to be important in the digital age. Those other countries just don't know what they're doing. Just wait, in a post-apocalyptic world we Americans will be ready to drink and fight with the best of them!

Re:You can say it all you want

[Ogi_UnixNut]

IMO (having spent about half my life the "West" and the other half in "Eastern Europe") the primary difference seems to be one of respect for knowledge.

In the West while I was at school it was "cool" to be stupid. Kids who smoked, did drugs, didn't do any work, rejected knowledge/lessons, skipped school etc... were by far the most popular, with many followers. The hard working kids that did well on the other hand, were mocked as "teachers pets", "dorks" etc... and were generally social outcasts.

On the other hand when I was in Eastern Europe, if you were knowledgeable in a subject (especially something seen as hard, like Maths/physics etc...) you ended up being popular, while those that smoked/did drugs/skipped school etc... as above were seen as troublemakers to be avoided. People there seemed to appreciate your knowledge. I guess it's because it's seen as a reliably useful skill (i.e. employable), as opposed to just looking pretty, which only works for the top 1% that manage to become celebrities, the rest usually ending up as whores/gold diggers or thugs/bouncers.

That's not to say athletics was discouraged, on the contrary you were expected to take part in at least one physical activity, but it wasn't a case of athletics being the be-all-end-all of life

Re:You can say it all you want

[megaditto]

It's just a question of priorities. I believe this is evolution at work. With some huge generalizations, here is what I think happens:

In China/SU people will suffer or even starve to death unless they get a skilled/high-tech job. Therefore, one's intelligence is highly valued (by parents, wifes, society in general, etc.)

In America, there is no danger of starvation. Even the unemployed get to have a house, a car, a TV, 5 meals a day, and a dimebag. Therefore, the people focus on more relevant (at this time) things such as personal appearance and personality.

The good news is that us humans are highly adaptable, and our priorities will be adjusted as needed (when the circumstances change).

Or is it due to time and money?

[kbob88]

Maybe programmers in China, Russia, and Eastern Europe have more time on their hands, less money, and would derive more benefit from participating in the contest (prestige and recognition for instance). I'm sure there are a great many US coders who would do very well in this contest, but are too busy.

Re:Or is it due to time and money?

[Seakip18]

Better yet, was the opening of said contest even announced on US top tech sites?

Second, did US employers, who hire our best programmers, tell them to give it a go with time off?

Re:Or is it due to time and money?

[Vexorian]

It is always by this time of the year that the results of programming contests like the ICPC and the TCO get announced and the lame US excuses parade begins...

Russia, Poland and China are better at programming contests, live with it. Really, it is sort of annoying to see Americans making up all sorts of excuses when the results are announced. During the ICPC one guy in slashdot was actually saying that as Russians and Chinese guys are obviously inherently corrupt, they probably stole the answers. Last year, a christian nationalist site said that Russia always wins because the Russian students practice and the US ones obviously don't... What's worse is that Americans assume they are the only country making software, and that they are full of greatly competent programmers that all happen to be busy during these contests.

Guess what? Programmers in other countries are also very busy. There are also companies in other countries that hire their best programmers, and no, they wouldn't let them go with time off... US participation was not low, in fact it was one of the highest, as this is an American company hosted contest...

At least you are not down the bottom in these things, US is probably 5th or something, there are hundreds of countries that do much worse, but at least they don't keep making up these lame excuses...

We do the same thing with athletics here that they

[overshoot]

Which reminds me -- how is the USA doing in the World Cup?

Re:We do the same thing with athletics here that t

[jgtg32a]

What's that?

US Educational System

[mordors9]

Who knew that teaching kids that 1+1 can equal 3 as long as they feel good about themselves would turn out bad for us...

Re:US Educational System

[hedwards]

Spoken as somebody who has clearly never worked in education.

Classroom related anxieties are a genuine problem and this sort of blame the victim ideology has no place in schools. Trivializing this sort of thing just makes it more difficult on the students and teachers and unnecessarily drains talent which could otherwise be out looking for the cure to cancer or fixing other pressing concerns.

Re:US Educational System

[The Master Control P]

If you're serious: You're right, we should never tell children when they're wrong. That would never create preening, self-entitled idiots that never learned any actual hard facts and have no idea how to cope with a real world that doesn't care how "traumatic" being told "you're wrong" is.

If you're joking: God, don't scare me like that!

Re:US Educational System

[Omestes]

Your trolling, right?

Please tell me your trolling.

I'm dating a person working on their major in education (its free, and mostly for giggles),who has to interact with actual k-12 teachers. Reading some of the pop-psych drivel that teachers cough up, I sadly wouldn't doubt it you were serious.

Primary and secondary educations exists to make kids LEARN, not to make them feel good about themselves. When it comes to schooling, I actually don't care how they feel about it, as long as they leave being able to read at a 12th grade level, and know at least some math. Actually, I would like it if they knew something about history as well. If they leave feeling good about themselves, that is great, IF (and only if) they earned it through achievement.

People who do mediocre work should feel mediocre about it. Feeling bad about it forces them to do something about it. Telling them that being a moron is fine, isn't making them want to stop being a moron. Kids should be under some pressure to... you know... better themselves.

As for self-esteem... its a load of new-age crap. Self respect, like all other forms of respect, must be earned. Being proud of yourself for nothing but existing is rather stupid, it motivates nothing but egotism and some idiotic sense of entitlement. Being proud of yourself for doing something, that gives incentive to continue to achieve.

Also, no, they are not innately special. No one is. You are nothing but part of the faceless masses that will be completely forgotten within one generation of your death, this is the definition of not being special. Just because you like yourself, doesn't change this. If you feel good about this, there is something wrong. You only become special when you DO something that the vast majority of anonymous strangers in the world can't do. You don't get to the point where this is possible by sitting on your ass, staring into a mirror, and chanting a mantra about how awesome you are just because you are you.

A quick question; should I be proud of myself for sitting at my desk eating cheetos? Or should I be proud of myself for getting off my ass and doing something interesting? Children are no different.

Really, we need more hard-ass eduction. We should just flunk everyone who can't actually read at their grade level, or perform basic mathematical operations, no questions asked. Continue to flunk them until they pass, turn twenty-one, or realize they should just get their GED and do something that befits their temperament.

Re:US Educational System

[Omestes]

t. Schools are also around to give children confidence, physical fitness, social skills, discipline, etc.

I can see how some of these are important for schools. But we should still never sacrifice pure learning for any of them. Actually, the only one that has an overt place in schools is phys-ed. The rest of them should arise naturally from a learning environment. Confidence is covered the second a kid does an "impossible" problem, or reasons out a consequence on their own. Social skills arise from being stuck in a class room full of children trying to fit in and rise to the top of the social heap. Discipline is, and has, always been integral to ALL hard tasks. You can't tell me that those kids in the 1800's before modern "social education" didn't have it. You teach discipline by being a hard-ass, "you do it until you get it right, if you don't do it bad things happen".

You have obviously never tried to teach a smart child who lacks confidence in their ability because they've never been encouraged.

Not as a profession, though I've had to deal with them, and was one. You lead a child to confidence, you don't teach it. As stated, it comes from that first moment you make them find water on their own (as opposed to leading them to it). I was diagnosed as a "troubled" child as a kid, because of this 90% of my teachers decided they had to hold my hand, and thus I learned nothing, even if I was smart. Then I had a teacher that made me read a ton of books, synthesize the knowledge into a coherent plan (not contained in any of the books), and then design an application for it. It was hard, it was challenging, but I did it. I got an A, and a nice "atta boy!" from my teacher, after that my confidence issues were solved. Again, this is anecdotal, so... But the premise remains, self confidence is earned, all a teacher can do is make a child realize that they deserve it. For characteristics beyond the droll "you exist, and are special!" crap.

The secret to confidence is forcing kids to be surprised with their own abilities, not preaching it at them.

Apparently, you have never known anyone who has withdrawn from school and social life because they were having trouble at home.

This does happen, I agree. But this is not the majority of cases, nor enough of the population to force changes on general curriculum. Smart teachers can pick these kids out, and give them special attention, or call social services if it is bad enough.

This highlights a major problem with the system; aiming for the lowest common denominator. We can help the kids with real problems, AND help the best and brightest excel and become something special. We don't have to drag everyone down to the most level of the most wretched example.

You seem to have no understanding about how developmental psychology or education actually work

Have some understanding, did an undergrad in psychology. Granted my emphasis was pure research, but I did get stuck with some developmental classes (not claiming I'm an expert, just not unfamiliar). Developmental psych is probably one of the weakest areas in psych at the moment, though.

For some reason, you seem to think that our schools should teach average students to feel terrible about themselves because they are average, as if that would somehow motivate them to learn more.

Never said that. Well, if average kids can't read at their grade level, and don't know math at a comparable, then well yes, they should be judged by their higher level peers, and should feel that they can do better. I accept average as the high C to low A level of grades, and this is fine, though there should still be at least some pressure to do better. A percentage of average kids are capable of more, given proper goading.

We should try to make every kid rise to the maximum of their ability. We also, must accept that this level varies.

If you are truly an average student you shouldn't be made to feel bad about it, but y

Re:Hah

[N1AK]

Given that your willing to write off the population of an entire country on your limited anecdotal evidence, I have to wonder whether the people outsourcing the role knew they'd get incompetents, but at least the new incompetents would be cheaper.

the lesson:

[Anonymous Coward]

Turn your back on learning and embrace anti-intellectualism? Enjoy falling behind.

Unfortunately America is getting screwed from both sides... the Republicans actively oppose education that isn't Jesus-centered, while the Democrats and their "Oh, everyone's a winner" crap make what education we do have a joke and create a disgusting sense of entitlement. I figure once China launches a manned moon mission it'll probably be the kick in the ass America needs to get back in gear, same as when the USSR launched Sputnik. Right now America's stalled but there's still time to reignite the engines.

Most nations don't have long once they stagnate, but America's got a hell of a lot of inertia behind it... I hope we don't throw the chance away.

Oh really?

[Junior J. Junior III]

We do the same thing with athletics here that they do with mathematics and science there.

Oh really? What fraction of A-rod's salary is the top coder in China being paid?

Gentlemen, it's time

[Red Flayer]

It's time for nerds to rise up yet again. Throughout modern history in the US, celebration of the nerd has resulted in unprecedented economic prosperity and global economic domination.

From the idolization of Einstein, Feynman, and other physicists, arose the economic superpower that dominated much of the world in the 1950s and 60s.

In the 80s, we were captivated by the message of Revenge of the Nerds, and on the shoulders of this movie we came to dominate the new era of Information.

Ladies, gentlemen: Now is the time. Now is the time to rise up from our comfy chairs, to rise up from our futons, to rise up from the depths of our basements! We must rise up as one united voice of nerd-dom, and speak to the mouthbreathers who have ground us beneath their bootheels since time immemorial. We must tell them:

ENOUGH! Take your stupid sports and shove them. Take your stupid pop music TV shows and shove them. Take your idolization of stupidity and sacrifice it on the altar of curiosity, the altar of edification, and the altar of neckbeards and cheetos!

WE MUST DEFEAT THE...

What's that mom? Yeah... OK... I'll be up for dinner as soon as I finish this level. Did you get some Mountain Dew?

Sorry, gotta go AFK.

Re:Gentlemen, it's time

[Shooter28]

Yes, and until that image of nerds/geeks is changed, we will continue to lag behind.

It's not "cool" to be smart, and so each generation grows up caring more about popularity than tackling the hard subjects and learning something worthwhile.

Far too many people cannot even function in society with the education they receive in high school, and we still give them diplomas.

And it's not really true...

[sznupi]

IMHO it's not that we (yeah, I'm from so called "Eastern Europe") focus on mathematics and hard science, it's just that, from what I see, athletes/etc. are put on a smaller pedestal

(perhaps partly because of economic considerations...celebrities here simply aren't worth that much as a product; means also that for larger percentage of "would-be celebrities" the only future is as a bouncer or whore, etc.)

But they are still put on a pedestal...

Question 1

[InsertWittyNameHere]

Outline one method to gain access to NSA networks and provide code implementing the method. Bonus points for commented code.

Begin.

Re:Hah

[oldspewey]

Several of the Indians I work with are among the most talented, knowledgeable architects I've ever met.

What's your point?

Putting it on equal footing?

[nEoN nOoDlE]

Saying 'We do the same thing with athletics here that they do with mathematics and science there.' is trying to put it all on a somewhat equal footing - "well, they're good at math, but we're as good at sports as they are at math!" Given that the Olympics were just a few months ago, it seems they also do the same thing with athletics as we do with athletics, but they also treat math and science with that highly competitive regard as well. It's all about competition, and we just don't treat math and science as competitively as we treat sports. Just look at what happens when we do treat education competitively - we get spelling bees with 5th and 6th graders who can out-spell 99% of English speakers of any age.

This happens in Toronto too

[selven]

At one of the major youth mathematics competitions, Tournament of Towns, the award ceremony is 80% Chinese, 80% of the non-Chinese are Russian, and 80% of the remainder are Indian. It seems like a general pattern around here - look at any math competition top score list and you see Chinese names at the top.

Another possible reason

[ZorbaTHut]

It could just be that the US coders are no longer interested.

I used to compete in Topcoder. I made it to #2, I was in the top ten for over a year solid. Then I got a job at Google thanks to my Topcoder ranking. I joined a team that had a bunch of other ex-Topcoders in it and, as with them, determined pretty quickly that Topcoder just wasn't worth my time anymore.

Now, I don't know how many Chinese programmers got jobs through Topcoder, but I do know that the vast majority of the best Topcoder competitors in the US were hired by a surprisingly small set of companies. And, well, as cool as Topcoder is, if you sit down and look at dollars-per-hour . . . it's pretty crummy compared to a real job. Especially since they lowered all the prizes.

So, US coders do Topcoder, do well, get job, quit Topcoder because we get paid well. Chinese coders do Topcoder, do well, don't get job, don't quit Topcoder. Or they do Topcoder, do well, get job, don't quit Topcoder because they're not yet being paid well enough.

Doesn't surprise me in the least.

Re:We do the same thing with athletics here that t

[cortesoft]

I think it is like the Superbowl, but instead of playing a sport they kick around a little ball and occasionally fall to the ground and roll around pretending they were shot.

Proportions

[shutdown -p now]

20 of the 70 finalists were from China, 10 from Russia, and 2 from the US. China's showing in the finals was helped by its large number of entrants, 894. India followed at 705, but none of its programmers was a finalist. Russia had 380 participants; the United States, 234

So let's calculate proportional representation then (since it would make more sense as a comparison point):

Russia: 380/10 = 1 finalist per 38 participants
China: 894/20 = 1 finalist per 45 participants
USA: 234/2 = 1 finalist per 117 participants

So, out of three, Russia seems to top the list. It's a pity they don't give the numbers for finalists from other countries - I would be curious to see how other Eastern European countries fared, and I have a strong suspicion that, if those numbers were included, top 3 would be entirely Eastern Europe.

Teachers...

[uncqual]

I think that teachers are a significant part of the problem (somewhere after parents).

The teacher's unions have for many years rejected almost all attempts to reward the objectively successful (rather than the most senior and/or most willing to collect various paper credentials) practitioners of the art while pushing out those that are not successful. They are historically opposed to all standardized student testing - esp. if they are fearful that these results may be used in teacher evaluation. If students testing at the X percentile on a standardized Algebra test at the end of Algebra I end up at the end of Geometry testing at 1.1X in one teacher's class and at 0.9X in another teacher's class in the next classroom, it seems we have a pretty good hint which teacher is better.

The standardized testing should be a significant factor in students' grades to discourage students from "punishing" a teacher they don't like by doing poorly on the standardized tests.

I don't find the arguments about how "teaching to tests" is bad very compelling - esp. in Math and Science. If "teaching to the tests" results in different teaching than "teaching to excel in the material", obviously the tests need to be fixed -- they are testing for something other than that which competence is desired in. Sure, there are some subject areas that don't lend themselves to standardized testing (for example, various performing arts), but these don't seem to be the areas that are resulting in American High School graduates being non-competitive.

Annecdotally, in my personal experience most smart and competent people who flee from the teaching field (usually after having entered it somewhat idealistically) would be excellent teachers but end up being frustrated by not being rewarded for their performance, frustrated by lack of support from parents ("My little Susie would never talk back"), and lack of support from administrators ("If there's a problem with classroom discipline it must be the teacher's problem as Susie's mother has assured me she's an angel").