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EC To Pursue Antitrust Despite Microsoft's IE Move
snydeq writes "The European Commission will proceed with its antitrust case against Microsoft regardless of Microsoft's decision to strip IE from Windows 7 in Europe. Europe's top antitrust regulator said the EC would draw up a remedy that allows computer users 'genuine consumer choice,' noting that stripping out IE from Windows 'may potentially be positive,' but 'rather than more choice, Microsoft seems to have chosen to provide less.' Jon von Tetzchner, CEO of Opera, whose complaint to the European Commission at the end of 2007 sparked the initial antitrust investigation, said Microsoft is 'trying to set the remedy itself by stripping out IE. ... Now that Microsoft has acknowledged it has been breaking the law by bundling IE into Windows, the Commission must push ahead with an effective remedy,' he said."
Even if I could understand / appreciate the whole "anti-trust" thing, and conceded that it was the government's place to interfere to stop monopolies (which I can't), how is it EVER logical to suggest that it's up to a for-profit company to provide "consumer choice" by touting its competitors' products? That's just totally ridiculous. You say that Microsoft is breaking the law by bundling IE with its software, great, I could argue that, that shouldn't be against the law, et cetera (but I won't, because it's not really relevant to the matter-at-hand), but how can you suggest that rather than just making them not bundle IE, you should ALSO make them provide ipso facto advertising (for free) for their competitors by offering so-called "genuine consumer choice"?
I agree completely. I don't use IE myself, but the EC's position that MS should not only not bundle their own browser, but instead bundle *competing* browsers is inane. I'm not a gung-ho laissez-faire capitalist, but forcing companies to promote competing products is over the line.
Of course, not bundling a browser is problematic as well. The technologically illiterate, and even the semi-skilled could not figure out how to download a browser without having a browser to start with. All I'd like to see is the option to uninstall cleanly, not a mandatory release of a browser-less (read: near useless) OS.
$_ = "wftedskaebjgdpjgidbsmnjgcdwatb"; tr/a-z/oh, turtleneck Phrase Jar!/; print
Microsoft uses partners to sell their product. Now M$ won't have the option do decide what browser we will get, instead the reseller will provide one for use.
The consumer will still get Windows with an Internet browser.
I know this is already the case with some dealers, but now EU said it's totally up to them what to bundle with Windows and not a Microsoft decision.
Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
You have to stop and take a look at this from the EU point of view.
In the US, we seek humanistic solutions to what we see as wrongs done to the individual. In the EU, they seek procedural solutions to what they see as services gone wrong.
Bracketing non-EU style commendation onto the situation is risking stereotypical generalization (and milk soaked Wheaties) - walk in their shoes a bit first, before you firebomb their reactions.
He wasn't stealing it. He just wanted to check how difficult it is to carry the TV around, in order to make a more informed purchase decision.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
If Microsoft were based in Europe this wouldn't be happening.
I doubt that. Many european companies have been fined by the EU for illegal business practices.
New things are always on the horizon
Do you not put a suspected thief on trial because he put down the TV he was stealing when the policeman stared right at him?
No because you can't convict people on suspicions alone. In the example you gave, the "suspected thief" didn't actually steal anything. He put the TV down before he stole because the police officer was staring right at him. That it may be "obvious" to our "sensibilities" that he was going to steal the TV is irrelevant. The law is functional because it does NOT allow us to jump to such conclusions, and require that someone ACTUALLY OFFEND and have this offense PROVEN for punishment to be inflicted upon them.
MS's plan is to allow OEMs to include whatever browser they want in the EU version of Windows. No manufacturer is going to be foolish enough to ship a system without some sort of browser installed.
I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
Fuck you, OP, and everyone who uses mod-point-martyrdom, to express their point of view.
"I have karma to burn"
"I'll probably get modded down for this but..."
"Ok, flame away"
Just make your point, and leave that crap out next time.
It's monopoly abuse. Windows has a desktop monopoly. What Ubuntu or Apple does is not that important, they don't have a monopoly. If you do want to talk about the situation of Ubuntu and comparing it to Windows. Windows comes with IE and only IE or now maybe no browser at all (even less choice). Ubuntu comes with several terminal programs on the CD/DVD and you can install an other just and just as easily remove the one that was default.
New things are always on the horizon
This is a GOOD THING. I can't believe all the rabid anti-EU postings here. Somebody finally has the courage to stand up to Microsoft, and you people want to sting them up!
Look: Microsoft has obtained their monopoly by unethical means. They have maintained that monopoly by illegal means. They are illegally leveraging their monopoly to extend their dominance into other markets.
Thank goodness the EU has the guts to fight this.
what is a real issue today is the ability of buying a PC either desktop or laptop with an OS other than microsoft, [eg] FreeDOS, BSD, Linux, not giving consumers a choice of OS when buying a PC is the bigger monopolistic crime...
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
I also agree (is this really Slashdot, or has my DNS been spoofed), but lets just clear up that the EU don't want MS to ship without a browser, but with multiple browsers. However, Microsoft have it right. I don't want a new computer cluttered up with multiple browsers. There are some browsers I may not want installed (do I really trust Google's browser?). Some browsers may come with terms and conditions I don't like and quite frankly it's just clutter to me and confusion to others. If I install Ubuntu or Kubuntu, okay, I can get other browsers easily, but they do come with a default one installed. Finally, if you do install multiple browsers, who gets approved and who does not? And by who? If we get IE, Firefox and Chrome does Opera sue? If we add Opera then what about Links? And why stop with browsers? If WordPad is on there, then shouldn't TextPad be there too? And if Outlook's installed, then you've got to have Thunderbird. And Opera (again). And Mulberry.
It would be nice if there were some way of preventing Microsoft from leveraging IE on the back of Windows that wasn't worse than the problem itself. But not including a browser is worse and the EU proposal for multiple browsers is worse than that still, imo.
There have even been attempts to integrate the browser even more fully into the OS. Microsoft was exploring this (albeit initial efforts were ugly), but I guess the EU action put a crimper on it and the possibility we might see something more radical and better developed.
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
The big OEM's *already* have the option to bundle Firefox/Opera/etc. as their default browser (Firefox would certainly be a big improvement over all the other useless crapware and adware they bundle with most off-the-shelf computers these days). Pretty much none of them do (that I know of). The EC doesn't want to give the OEM's the option of installing an alternative browser (they already have it), they want to TAKE AWAY their option of leaving IE as the default browser (as they pretty much all do now). I don't see how that benefits the consumer in any way. It just seems like a spiteful jab at MS and a double-standard that they don't apply to Apple, Canonical, etc.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
I didn't miss the point at all. If you read the last story about this very topic, it was completely full of anti-European commission comments.
Some MS bashing would probably have made it more balanced. As it stands, all those people above are just gaming the mod system.
Ok, Microsoft is found guilty of abusing its position of controlling the currently most popular PC OS on the market. Through bundling and anti-competitive practices they're nailed for being a monopoly.
The media player gets stripped out per an earlier EC case.
Now, in 2007, Opera complains about the browser bundling, saying that it gives Microsoft an unfair advantage in the browser wars. The EC says "Yeah, you're right! Ok MS, take out the bundled browser"
Microsoft complies, stripping out the IE user application from copies of Windows 7 to be distributed in Europe.
Opera and the EC, faced with getting exactly what they asked for, are now mad again because what they REALLY wanted Microsoft to do was to bundle a competing product with the base OS. They don't want a level playing field, they want to tip the scales in their favor (specifically to Opera).
I'm sorry, but there is a line being crossed here where we went from semi-valid to out-right ridiculous. Strip down the OS, fine. Let the OEMs decide what browser to install on a system. Let retailers sell $5 CDs containing Firefox, Opera, Safari etc with their copies of Windows 7. If you want the OS to be a neutral platform for applications, then it has to be just that. If you try to mandate what browser IS bundled, you're defeating the whole point and just creating a new monopoly for whoever the lucky guy is whose browser you choose (likely Opera).
Considering current browser usage statistics, I think the entire browser monopoly concept is antiquated. With IE currently holding around 41% of the total market, and Firefox with 47% (http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp) it's pretty clear that a) it's not a monopoly anymore and b) bundling is not hurting other browsers.
What this really feels like is Opera is tired of being in last place (and probably especially pissed that up-start Chrome blew past them in just a month or two) and instead of capturing marketshare with a more compelling product, they're going to try and legislate themselves into a stronger market position.
no. ubuntu is not a monopoly. ubuntu does not make money out of supplying a terminal. ubuntu does not drive competitors out of business by making dash the default terminal. ubuntu does not package its own terminal either, because ubuntu does not have its own terminal. so basically the two cases are pretty dissimilar, but i imagine you already knew that and were just trolling.
As a person who has always used AC to post on /. since 1997, get fucked.
I've watched people promote the mod system as the or a solution. Use the mod system to bash other points of view they disagree with. Burn posts. Neglect it on later posts so they get buried.
"That crap" is part of the system. "That crap" is why people are AFRAID to post. You rarely hear from people like me, because you've stuck AC posts at 0, and the default is 1. Mods aren't reading now, then, or later. They're VOTING, not moderating. This is why YOUR PROFANE POST IS RIGHT NOW A +5 INSIGHTFUL.
And now, you counter punch with anger at those that use mod points for or against a point of view, even making that point of view knowing it in the face of this prevailing use of mods points. Dickhead, you're part of the damn problem, you use the damn system to promote your shit too, and now you're a hypocrite.
MS is hated or heavily disliked on /. That's the norm. If you can't recognize that, you're a freaking moron. Everyone knows promoting MS or liking MS or hating the US or Republicans means your post is voted down, not moderated.
There is this most amazing shill swarm going on all over the web because of this issue. On comments to the New York Times article, even on Microsoft's own web site where they calmly state that out of respect to the EU ruling they would desist from bundling IE in Europe, the comment section is filled from comments from their own sock puppets. It is time somebody spoke out about this. This is no less than the "Death of Web 2" and free speech. Just watch how fast this gets modded to oblivion, for example, in spite of the fact that Slashdot has long been known as a place where the voice of the people can be heard speaking out against perceived injustices perpetrated by the powerful. This is something good for society - that the voice of individuals should get heard and not drowned out by the mighty roar of the powerful.The defence of Microsoft by some Slashdotters goes directly against the grain here. What bothers me most about these comments by Microsoft's supporters on Slashdot is there subtle nature - not just healthy debate, but rather, as if there was some orchestrated campaign employing techniques such as "Saturate, diffuse, confuse".
Corporations should not have defenses from the people in the community. They are not equivalent to people, and should not be treated so within that community. The information source was created out of the desire of people who were not paid to share, and injecting thought which is influenced by any monetary bias is by definition sullying a good source of information.
Rule number one for keeping a tyrant in power is to control information. If you control information, you control the truth. By artificially keeping Slashdot skewed in their favour, Microsoft is trying to hide the truth from the public. Their strategy is failing, and what we see right now is their usual gut reaction: try to throw more people and more money at the problem. However, the harder they try, the more light will shine on their shady methods and expose them.
SAP
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
That wouldn't actually be a bad idea. When the user first turns on the computer, a screen should pop up with the following:
As a result of recent EU regulations, please choose a preferred internet browser.
That should get people riled up!
EU want MS to include a choice in the Win7 installer that gives a user the choise to install either EI, Firefox or Opera. Instead MS just went out to remove the choice of having a brower entirely.
That's the worst idea I ever heard. Hey, I just wrote a browser called BlakeyBrowse, how do I get in on this gravy train? It's a wrapper around MSHTML, but mine includes 15 animated ads on every page load! Since it's built into the Windows installer, and customers don't understand this choice when they make it, I'll get thousands of installs even though it's a piece of shit. Woo!
Why should Microsoft have to support Firefox and Opera? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life.
Even if Microsoft is forced to stop their anti-competitive practises they still don't give the user the choice of a different browser.
Microsoft *never took that away* from the user. Ever. Nothing EVER stopped you from installing Mosaic, or Netscape, or Opera, or Firefox, or Safari. Never in the history of Microsoft have they taken away the "choice of a different browser."
You're either completely full of shit, or completely delusional. I don't know which.
I hope they'll bleed. And stop whining about the EU only wanting to make money because their fines are a tiny drop in the financial ocean.
The only press we in the US see about the EU summarizes as:
* EU sues highly-successful American company for dubious reasons, imposes gigantic fines.
What are we supposed to believe the motive is?
Comment of the year
You rarely hear from people like me, because you've stuck AC posts at 0, and the default is 1.
That's why I read at -1. The moderation system can bring some good points to light, but there's good stuff if you burrow down, or just read past the point most people burn their mod points on. If you're on 1, you can miss some good stuff.
Canada: The US's more awesome sibling.
djupedal (584558) Alter Relationship on Friday June 12, @12:03PM (#28309309) You have to stop and take a look at this from the EU point of view.
In the US, we seek humanistic solutions to what we see as wrongs done to the individual. In the EU, they seek procedural solutions to what they see as services gone wrong.
A good example of this; Open source solutions, a free alternative or try to promote a free GUI alternative (opera, Ubuntu, Firefox). While the EU is more likely to enforce some business restrictions; a top down approach. This is a predominantly American website, so of course you're going to see mods like that. And yes; some are of course going to be xenophobic (goodness knows we're a xenophobic nation), but the way we want solutions is simply inherently different (I believe) because of our culture.
So when the EC does what we see to be an overbearing government standard to protect its people, some Americans see it as trying to interfere with fair business practices. I'm not here trying to convince you that you're wrong, but perhaps being a bit quick to judge.
Posting with out proof reading since 2001.
I don't normally correct grammar or spelling issues, but I really have to here, because this is hilarious.
Too bad no one in the EU or USA had the kahunas...
Kahuna is a Hawaiian word that translates something like "wizard" or "expert". I think what you want is the Spanish word for testes: cojones. But the idea of the US and EU needing wizards to deal with MS is pretty awesome, too.
The World's Worst Webcomic!
negative, read groklaw for instance and the commissions statements:
roughly: "we want the users to have more choice, not less"
Microsoft does the ONE thing that will hurt innovation in the long run and increases the chance that users will end up getting IE instead of an alternative browser, by not providing any method at all to chose an alternative browser easily. You can bet your ass that "Microsoft Windows without IE" will have big fat "INSTALL IE NOW" icons on the desktop and popups appearing randomly.
The European commission is 100% correct for condemning this move.
Frankly, I couldn't care less if IE is integrated in the OS but able to be disabled, which is far less harmful than this move of Microsoft.
Stop with the stupidity, enough with the ignorance: MS is treated differently because it enjoys a monopoly, and has a proven track record of abusing it.
It's not that they bundle a browser. It's that they bundle IE, which through MS's previous law-breaking, spawned an ecosystem of non-standard, IE-only websites. These days, those 'websites' are largely web-based corporate functions (like time tracking systems and incident tracking systems). Those packages have been able to continue down their IE-only garden paths on the assumption (supported by Microsoft marketing) that IE will already be there on 95% of computers sold, and if a business standardizes on Windows, 100%.
That has contributed to Windows lock-in, which was the basis of the original IE antitrust action. So, while it'd be okay if Microsoft were to bundle Firefox or Chrome, bundling IE is still problematic. Now, they could remove all the non-standard stuff from IE and then bundle it relatively harmlessly. But, of course, the non-standard stuff is the reason Microsoft built IE in the first place - so they could extend their monopoly position to the web, making non-Windows desktop systems that much less viable. And it would've worked, except for Firefox, which being open source was not 'killable'. As it is, the web has gravitated towards standards despite IE. But that'd have been much harder to do without a first-class browser like Firefox able to survive in the vacuum created by IE. And without firefox, there probably never would've been Safari, iPhone, Android, etc.
Still, even though Microsoft hasn't been as successful as they'd have liked in monopolizing the Internet, they still have had some success, especially in the corporate arena. So what's the EU to do? Nothing?
Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
There is money to be made through search provider revenue (Mozilla, Opera) and donations (Mozilla).
"commentary on how Slashdot is hugely Anti-MS to the point of being retarded"
Which is why the first three comments are pro MS, and modded up, I suppose.
emt 377 emt 4