World Copyright Summit and the Lies of the Copyright Industry

Mike Masnick over at Techdirt has an incredibly in-depth look at two presentations in particular from the recent CISAC world copyright summit. Rep. Robert Wexler and Senator Orrin Hatch both gave deeply troubling presentations calling opponents of stronger copyright "liars" and suggesting that copyright is the only way to make money on creative works, respectively. "Does anyone else find it ironic that it's the so-called 'creative class' which copyright supporters insist are enabled by copyright supposedly have not been able to tell this 'great story?' Perhaps the problem is that there is no great story to tell. Perhaps the problem is that more and more people are recognizing that the 'great story' is one that suppresses the rights of everyday users, stifles innovation, holds back progress and stamps on our rights of free speech and communication? Has it occurred to Wexler that for the past decade, the industry has been telling this story over and over and over again — and every time they do, more and more people realize that it doesn't add up? "

Comments

There is no debate

[QuantumG]

Debating how Copyright should work is like debating who should be king. If you accept to be ruled does it really matter how?

Re:There is no debate

[QuantumG]

Maybe you are.

We're talking about restrictions on free speech.

Re:There is no debate

[mi]

We're talking about restrictions on free speech.

No, we don't. We are talking about, whether creators — of movies, music, literature, software, fashion designs — have the inherent rights to control their creations, or whether whoever happens to be able to copy their work has the same rights to it as the creator.

Re:There is no debate

[Chyeld]

That boat sailed a long time ago grasshopper and the answer back when Shakespeare was doing his gig is the same as the answer today. You build on the shoulders of giants, and only reach the heights you do, by the efforts of those around you and before you.

In order to give you incentive to build, and in deference to the realization that it is work just the same, you are granted the ability to control the rights to copy something for a limited time. But all the same, your work stands on our backs, and thus, we share in the ultimate ownership.

That limited time is and should always be that, limited. If you can't (or won't) monetize your products in that time, then that is on you. Not us.

And we should not be expected to limit our own rights and abilities outside of that specific right of yours to control who can copy your work for a limited time, simply because you've failed to keep up with technology enough.

Re:There is no debate

[mellon]

They obviously don't have an "inherent" right, because if they did, we wouldn't be having this discussion. That's what an inherent right is - one that exists already. In order for it to be inherent, it would have to be the case, at a minimum, that it was broadly-enough recognized that you didn't have to fight against the average person's natural inclination. But peoples' natural inclinations are pretty clear - while people generally do seem to think that artists should be compensated, they do not agree that artists have a completely unrestricted copyright. You can see this simply by observing how people generally behave.

Copyright is a created right. It exists for a purpose: to encourage people to create new works of art. And it comes at a cost: peoples' right to copy these new works is restricted. Furthermore, peoples' right to speak about these works is restricted, and this does indeed get into the arena of freedom of speech, whether you want it to or not.

When you attempt to claim all rights to your work, in perpetuity, you are taking something away from the rest of the world. It may not be something that you consider important, but it is something that we consider important. So you have two choices: kill everyone who does not agree with you, or come to a compromise.

And that is precisely the purpose of this debate, which you seem to be arguing does not exist.

Re:There is no debate

[Opportunist]

We're talking about how culture is held hostage by people and organisations who think they're entitled to it. Culture depends on the use and reuse of what came before it. You can't do this today, a lot of culture is lying around and nobody may pick it up and create something new out of it. Redoing a 70s or 60s classic to fit into modern tastes? Can't do it, unless you are willing to deal with a huge studio that will rip your pants off if you're not careful.

Copyright was created to give artists an incentive to create, to give culture a boost and to make people create. Today, it is used to keep people from doing just that.

Re:There is no debate

[cpt kangarooski]

parent's diatribe is the most repugnant smelly piece of tripe.

No, I think I've got it right, but I'm happy to discuss it.

"Authors have an inherent right as to whether or not to create a work to begin with" yup and if I want to starve I won't create anything at all or we'll let you have it the minute I produce it and still I'll starve.
It's my work, You can buy it, you can use it for your own amusement. You CAN NOT make copies of it and give it away.

No. There are plenty of ways for an author to make money without copyright. For example, Picasso could sell a painting for extravagant amounts; the sorts of people who were prepared to pay him such vast sums wanted an actual copy he made, and would not have just gone out and bought a cheap poster of the same work instead. Architects in the US have traditionally made a living without copyright. The aforementioned fashion designers still don't have copyrights, but do okay. The list goes on and on. In fact, I was a professional artist before I got into law, and I never made a penny that was attributable to copyright, but I nevertheless supported myself and had a comfortable life.

Of course, copyright is no guarantee of success either. Even if you do have a copyright, you can still starve because your work is unpopular. There are plenty of flop movies, plays, books, etc.

The work you create is indeed yours, in the sense that you created it. Other than that, you have no particularly special rights in it inherently. Certainly you cannot control whether or not other people make copies of it and give them away merely because you are the author. Whatever ability you have to control what other people do and do not do can only possibly be based on whether or not those other people consent to your control. Why would they ever do so, unless they felt that it would somehow benefit them more to submit to it than not to?

That's not free speech. You certainly have a right to say the same thing I said in your own words you can even quote me on specific points THAT IS FREE SPEECH.

Yes. And copying your work verbatim is free speech too. But I might be willing to temporarily not do that, at least in some circumstances, if you made it worth my while. But you don't just start out dictating to me what I may and may not say, merely because you said it first.

After my ability to make money from it runs out it can become public domain but not until it has run the course of being MY FUCKING WORK ASSHOLE!

That's simply never how the law has worked. Even in this awful era of copyright law we now find ourselves in, the copyright term runs out after a particular period of time, regardless of whether or not you've completely exhausted the copyright-related revenues to be had.

You are supposed to be enriched by what I write for you and teach you or make you think about. It is for you to repeat what I say or disagree with it vocally if you wish. But taking my work and copying it and giving it away at your whim is not free speech.
I don't understand how anyone can support this obvious garbage. That this "public domain first" crap exists I just don't see how in any society you could think that!

Society is enriched by: 1) Authors creating new original works; 2) Authors creating new derivative works; 3) The public being free to use works in any manner they see fit (copying, distributing, preparing derivative works based upon, etc.); 4) The public not having to pay for works, access to works, copies, etc.

An ideal world would be one in which every creative work that could be created, was, and where there was no copyright at all, so that everyone had cost-free access to the entire body of human creative output. For practical reasons, we can't manage that at this time, but we should at least strive to get as close to that as possible.

The algebra of copyright is essentially that without copyright, some number of works x will be created and published because there are non-copyright-related

Re:There is no debate

[drinkypoo]

Congratulations, you have entered the philosophical minefield of the concept of "rights". Really it's just semantic bullshit, it's arguing over whether the word refers to those things which ought to be true, or those things which are true. I say you have a right to violate copyright, and the powers that be have the right to try to pass laws to stop you, and you have the right to riot and throw bricks if you want to, et cetera; you have the right to do your best. The idea of a natural "right to life" for example is hilarious; just try to guarantee it! But again, it's all just arguing over the definitions of words. In English, one word is often used many different ways by definition, let alone colloquially.

Re:There is no debate

[penix1]

That limited time is and should always be that, limited. If you can't (or won't) monetize your products in that time, then that is on you. Not us.

And we should not be expected to limit our own rights and abilities outside of that specific right of yours to control who can copy your work for a limited time, simply because you've failed to keep up with technology enough.

I am going to play devil's advocate here. I agree with what you are saying that the public domain is the sole purpose of copyright regardless of what the distributors want to portray. That said, here we go...

It is hard for an owner to control for that limited time when whole works are leaked to torrent sites even before they are released. How does that situation play in your scheme of things? How about the infringed content when someone walks into a theater with a camera then posts it online? How about the latest Photoshop version showing up on torrent sites hours after (or even before) their release? The point is, in a connected world, content owners don't get even that limited time you are referring to. Are current copyright limits too long? Sure. Can you guarantee if the limit is reduced to say 7 years it won't be shared on the torrent sites in two weeks after release or before? I thought not.

Re:There is no debate

[Anonymous Coward]

That boat sailed a long time ago grasshopper ...

Back in the early 1950's, my father invented the branch of engineering that is discussed in our textbook. Of course there were some people that did some related work before he did, but they didn't come close to putting together the physics models that are now used commonly (in our field).

Our text book is (C) 1995 and since then there have been 11 printings and well over twenty thousand copes sold of a very mathematical book. When we give lectures to the students that use the book, they are always thanking us for taking the time to write it down. It took eight years to write with a pause in the middle, then a large re-write for the final version. I typed something like two million keystrokes. The artist that created four hundred line drawings was paid something over thirty thousand US Dollars for his labor by our publisher. When people tell us about typos or other errors, we have our publisher correct them in the next printing.

You, grasshopper, have a lot of damn gall to tell me that we can't profit from our labor by restricting who can publish it.

Re:There is no debate

[hairyfeet]

One sentence- Steamboat Willie is STILL under copyright! The man has been pushing up the daisies (or a Popsicle, depending on whether you believe the tale or not) for over half a century, and yet his FIRST work, one made when planes were made out of cloth and antibiotics were just a dream, is STILL under copyright. I don't care which side you are on, i thionk we can all agree that is just fucked up!

The American copyright system, which is now being shoved down the rest of the planet's throats was a CONTRACT- nothing more. in return for a LIMITED copyright, we in turn got a richer and more diverse Public Domain for future artists to build on and for We, The People, to enjoy. Instead we have been robbed of our Public Domain by treasonous corporations with the blatant bribery of our public officials. Until We, The People are once again represented at the negotiating table ALL copyrights should be treated by the people as completely worthless and ignored. An unjust law paid for with outright bribery should be viewed as the illegal act that it is. But until sane copyrights are again restored and We The People are given representation all acts produced by corrupted officials for their corporat5e masters should simply be ignored by all.

Re:There is no debate

[cpt kangarooski]

The Universal Declaration doesn't list inherent rights. It lists rights which are good ideas and which people ought to have. Some of them are inherent, others are not. For example, people ought to have a guaranteed right to medical care (see Art. 25(1)), but we are not endowed by God or nature or whatever with an inherent right to compel others to grant us medical care. And treating oneself only gets you so far.

Frankly, I'd say that Art. 27(2) is outright wrong. Copyright is utilitarian in nature. A particular polity can decide to grant copyrights or not grant copyrights as it sees fit, provided it is generally equitable. It's little different than a town deciding to put up streetlights; if they're useful and cost-effective and realizable, then sure, they might be installed. And people might hold differing opinions as to whether or not they ought to be set up or not. But it's not a matter of human rights. It's a social program meant to help subsidize authors for the public benefit. It isn't necessary or even particularly important. It should not be in the Universal Declaration. Whether an author should be granted a copyright is a question for the society he lives in. It shouldn't be a given.

Plus of course, you still just cannot reconcile Art. 19, 27(1), and 27(2). It cannot be done. They're in conflict if you assign them equal weight. My solution -- that free speech trumps but is partially alienable for the purpose of setting up copyright, if the particular copyright law in question is seen as desirable by those who will be burdened by it -- at least makes sense. This is the same problem the moral rights crowd runs into; it's nonsensical, and even the countries that pretend to practice it are really hypocrites.

Re:There is no debate

[Chyeld]

Good for you friend, you worked hard you did the deed, and you see the fruits of your labor.

Now tell me, your father, did he invent his own number system? No?
Did he invent his own alphabet? No.
Were the laws of physics that his branch of engineering is based upon, discovered by him?
Did he invent the math system behind it? The algebra, the calculus?

No?

Well hey, at least when you published your book, you probably did so on a machine completely of your own design. Using a printing system you invented. No?

Then maybe it wasn't all your work. Maybe, as I said, you and he are standing on the backs of the people who came before you. How much have you reserved of your profits for them and their families? Nothing?

Then perhaps you need to drink a warm cup of Shhh! and think upon your lessons grasshopper. Cause unless you and your father sprung out of Zeus's forehead fully formed and full of the knowledge of life, you owe a lot of your success to a lot of people that you haven't yet given shit to.

Re:There is no debate

[Chyeld]

The answer to "people are stealing my shit" isn't "you honest folk who aren't stealing my shit need to give up your right to do things" especially when it still doesn't result in people not stealing your shit. Nor is it "Well because some people steal my shit, the public should have to let me control this longer". How does longer control help anything but provide incentive to steal?

There are ways of making buying something more desirable than stealing it, both by creating incentives to buy and disincentives to steal. The problem today is that rather than do either, the argument is made that they simply need to keep control over the work longer and longer. And each time, they'll use the excuse that people are still stealing it, because the point is that they realize that this means they can milk it forever.

Re:There is no debate

[k10quaint]

... Did he invent the math system behind it? The algebra, the calculus?...

I call bullshit on you, mr grasshopper.

Of course there isn't any way we can pay back Newton and/or Leibniz for inventing calculus. We are the first to give credit where due--the book has several hundred references to related work, which appeared in the interval between my father's first papers (1950's) and our (C) date. But we can pay forward by helping the next generation (of engineers that are interested in our field) get a real head start on their careers. We do this all the time, our volunteer work includes free lectures and design reviews (for just a couple of examples).

As far as the publishing technology goes, we did pay what the creators asked, we didn't steal any of that.

Let me tell you, I was pissed when some a**hole scanned the book and posted it.

Hurry up and die, I can wait 75 years to build on your work, I don't think I can wait the duration of your life on top of that. Before you shuffle off this mortal coil, please forward your profits and penalties to the heirs of the people named in your bibliography. I would hate to sit on the shoulders of a thief.

P.S. I just sent the great great great great great great grandson of Billy Shakes 50 cents for his timely turn of phrase from Hamlet.

Re:There is no debate

[smoker2]

Who said they had complete control ? Or indeed that they should have ? When Adobe goes bust maybe I'll believe that the tiny minority who downloaded Photoshop for free had something to do with it. But they won't go bust, because the ones who really wanted it usually end up as customers later on - the first hit is free remember. This is not about profit or no profit - this is about "either you pay or you do without". You can never win that fight. Back in the 1800s children were sentenced to transportation for stealing an apple from a market stall. Is that the degree of control you wish to see here ? In the grand scheme of things, no-one suffers from a minority downloading movies. I don't regard making 1 million less* on a profit of 20 or 200 million, suffering. In fact it just highlights the all consuming greed of the media companies that they should make such a fuss about it. They are relying on the slippery slope fallacy to predict doom for their businesses, when in fact they are all making healthy profits. If they weren't they wouldn't be doing it at all.

*They think they are making 1 million less, when in fact they are making just as much as the market will bear. If downloads and copying dvds disappeared tomorrow, their profits would not jump by 1 million. It is entirely notional and wishful thinking on their part. They can test this quite easily, just don't release the movie on DVD, only release in cinemas. But then they'll make less money, something MUST be wrong with their assumptions. Speculate to accumulate - but they are trying to get rid of the speculation and change it to "invest to securely accumulate". Business doesn't work like that. Short of the govt. mandating compulsory attendance at cinemas to view the latest blockbuster, they will never have the profits they seem to be expecting as their right. All companies have margins for "wastage", these assholes are expecting the govt. to reduce their wastage margins to zero at the expense of our liberty and heritage.

Fucking Harry Potter - a book about a wizard at school - written in the english language. Does JK Rowling have copyright on English words ? (Duh !) Has there ever been a book written about a child wizard at school (yes, lots). So how come she suddenly OWNS the concept ? Where would she be without the education she received free of personal cost ? Or without the inspiration she received from other peoples works dating back millennia. Limited time it says and limited time it should be. Copying by a minority for non-profit personal use has no appreciable effect on the value of a work worthy of protection. If they don't get rich instantly, maybe the work is crap, or they have unreasonable expectations. Try creating another work. If that doesn't sell either, then you are in the wrong trade. Asimov started writing (Sci-fi) for magazines. He could knock out a story in a few hours. It was that background that gave him an idea that maybe he could write longer stuff and publish it as books. People today think they can burst into the market and instantly demand top dollar, and if anybody actually reads their stuff for free, then they are being stolen from. What about Asimovs early work languishing in a doctors waiting room ? Should he have demanded payment for every pair of eyes that happened to stray across the page his story was on ?

Get some perspective !

Copyright:

[Anonymous Coward]

Too big to fail.

Wexler and Hatch are tools of Big Media

[bughunter]

Just another data point correlated with the general trend of Congresscritters whoring for the **AA. Even Wexler, who is a member of the progressive congress, needs wealthy donors. And he gets them by fellating the copyright cosa nostra, in this example...

Everyone in congress is owned by one or more corporate interests, and although it seems the recording and movie industries target those with a (D) after their names, Orrin Hatch proves that their corruption is bipartisan.

Re:Republicans ! - pay enough and

[CorporateSuit]

Orin Hatch is renowned for being one of the most corrupt men in the United States (accepting larger bribes than any other senator from the shadiest industries in the country). He is the personification of both major parties' vitriol, not just republican. He, like Ted Stevens and the Kennedys, is proof that we need to limit the number of terms that anyone may stay in Washington. He's a royal family, all in and of himself.

Wait a second...

[DesScorp]

I thought we were for copyright reform here... i.e. a return to reasonable copyright periods. When did we decide that we wanted to completely abolish copyright? What about the GNU copyrights? Do we start ignoring them too?

If you just want to completely trash the system and ignore all copyrights, then sorry, I didn't sign up for that revolution.

Re:Wait a second...

[QuantumG]

I thought we were for copyright reform here

-1 Characterizes Slashdot as just a single opinion.

I'm a copyright abolitionist. Other folks on here are copyright reformists. Other folks on here like copyright just the way it is thank you. Other folks on here think copyright should be strengthened. Other folks on here think copyright should be more like regular property laws.

Explain the reason for copyright expansion

[Opportunist]

What's the reason behind copyright? To give authors and creative artists an incentive to produce, to give them the exclusive right to use their creation for a limited time (yeah, that's the idea, now the studios hold it in the stranglehold... bear with me, ok?), so they can regenerate their expense, so they can reap the rewards for their labour, so they can actually live off their creation.

Tell me one thing: If you're unable to regenerate your cost, if you don't earn enough within 50 years to have an incentive to produce, why do you think 70, 90 or however many more years would be an incentive?

My suggestion would be, let's limit it to, say, 20 years and see if people stop creating content. My money is on "they won't stop".

So care to explain to me why you need the lengths you do? To give people an incentive to create? Don't make me laugh!

Re:dead simple

[AnnoyaMooseCowherd]

ignoring the fact that we live in a more connected society where media like films, album master tapes, and so on last longer, and so content owners can make money on something for many more decades than in the past.

Copyright was originally introduced to cover written works such as books. Go to any decent library and you will find books that have lasted a lot longer than most films do.

Copyrights were extended to reflect the times.

In reality, copyright laws were introduced to encourage creative people to create more stuff for the enrichment of society as a whole. The terms of these copyrights were carefully chosen to give the creator enough time to make some money, but not so long that they could simply stop creating and sit back and live of an afternoon's work they put in fifty years before in a recording studio.

Re:dead simple

[Chyeld]

These "Artists" you speak of are the only people in the world that I've ever met who have honestly believed that they deserve to be paid by us in perpetutuality for 'an hours' worth of work using material they've borrows from us.

Engineers don't expect a monthly check from the people who drive over the bridges built to their design.

Architects aren't getting rich off the residuals on their building designs.

Your average office worker doesn't even get paid for all the reports and charts they create.

Why is it that being an "Artist" should equate to "being paid forever".

And PST... if we truely are living in such a connected world, then it sould be even easier for the "Artist" to make their buck in a shorter amount of time than before. The fact that the works 'last longer' is bullshit, given I still can go see the Mona Lisa, yet the majority of the TV shows broadcast just in the 30's and 40's are lost forever.