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Student Who Released Code From Assignments Accused of Cheating

Death Metal sends in a story about Kyle Brady, a computer science major at San Jose State University, who recently ran into trouble over publishing the source code to his programming assignments after their due dates. One of Brady's professors contacted him and threatened to fail him if he did not take down the code. Brady took the matter to the Computer Science Department Chair, who consulted with others and decided that releasing the code was not an ethical violation. Quoting Cory Doctorow at Boing Boing: "There's a lot of meat on the bones of this story. The most important lesson from it for me is that students want to produce meaningful output from their course-assignments, things that have intrinsic value apart from their usefulness for assessing their progress in the course. Profs — including me, at times — fall into the lazy trap of wanting to assign rotework that can be endlessly recycled as work for new students, a model that fails when the students treat their work as useful in and of itself and therefore worthy of making public for their peers and other interested parties who find them through search results, links, etc. But the convenience of profs must be secondary to the pedagogical value of the university experience — especially now, with universities ratcheting up their tuition fees and trying to justify an education that can put students into debt for the majority of their working lives."

76 of 333 comments (clear)

  1. Teachers wrong here by XPeter · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The student released the source after the release date, which prevented any of his peers from cheating. In the computer science classes that I take, it's allowed to share the source code for your assignments as long as it isn't for a pending assignment and/or test.

    The only reason that comes to mind for the teacher wanting the code to be taken down is because he was going to use the same assignments next year (Which is fairly common among teachers). Regardless, in this case it's his code and he has the right to do whatever he wants with it.

    Unfortunately schools have become more about preparing you for standardized tests and such rather than giving you a real education with the information you actually will use in life (Which is why teachers always have to cover their asses). What Brady was trying to do was help his peers and kudos to him for doing so.

    --
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits" - Albert Einstein
    1. Re:Teachers wrong here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Q: What do you learn in school?


      A: How reality doesn't work.

    2. Re:Teachers wrong here by think_nix · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The only reason that comes to mind for the teacher wanting the code to be taken down is because he was going to use the same assignments next year (Which is fairly common among teachers). Regardless, in this case it's his code and he has the right to do whatever he wants with it.

      Unfortunately schools have become more about preparing you for standardized tests and such rather than giving you a real education with the information you actually will use in life (Which is why teachers always have to cover their asses). What Brady was trying to do was help his peers and kudos to him for doing so.

      +1 to that . I think (some not all ) educators need to get off there high horses and start being more innovative. Instead of always re-running assignment X for the past 5 years.

      I remember a certain "educator" I had while I was going back to school in 2001. If I didnt code the way he saw fit (which in other terms) a way he could understand he would would fail me , code comments or no code comments. In the end it went up in front of the school Directors , and I had my current employer at the time backing me with some other clients that I was coding for , because otherwise I would have failed out. Luckily the board decided in my favor .

      These certain types of educators that dont understand the depths of the own things they are "teaching" should either A.) be more innovative and come to terms with newer techs and their way of teaching or teaching style. B.) count their losses stfu and find a new line of work.

    3. Re:Teachers wrong here by v1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The student released the source after the release date, which prevented any of his peers from cheating

      Prevented them from cheating this semester. I'm sure the reason the prof wanted it taken down is so he could easily just copy-n-paste next semester's assignment. This is a lazy instructor working to maintain his laziness.

      Good profs at the very least work on a 4 semester rotation of courses where you're going to have to dig up a student from a few years ago at least before you have an easy "tweak and resubmit" assignment. Any instructor that dishes out the exact same projects semester after semester isn't showing any commitment, and certainly isn't staying with the times. Computer science is in such a continuous state of flux that any prof that isn't consistently reworking their coursework isn't doing their job.

      Catching these sorts of cheats isn't too difficult either even if you don't want to start projects from scratch. Just a matter of properly adjusting the project. Make a few fundamental changes that make it look different, update as needed, and subtly tweak a few things. (make a small change to limits etc) This makes it fresh and new, and is fairly easy to spot a cheat since they will blatantly be meeting subtle goals from the wrong project.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    4. Re:Teachers wrong here by Jurily · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In the computer science classes that I take, it's allowed to share the source code for your assignments as long as it isn't for a pending assignment and/or test.

      One of my teachers had a different approach: he'd let you do anything, as long as you were clear on what you wrote yourself, and what you didn't. OTOH, if he found the same snippet of code in two different assignments and both students tried to take credit for it, both failed.

      None of us dared use large chunks of someone elses work.

    5. Re:Teachers wrong here by nietpiet · · Score: 4, Interesting
      > Regardless, in this case it's his code and he has the right to do whatever he wants with it.

      This is probably not the case. At my University they own the rights to all code that is written as part of the educational program, not the students.

    6. Re:Teachers wrong here by Retric · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The problem with this approach is the nature of collage assignments. If you ignore variable names and comments then there is only so many ways to write a short efficient bubble sort. Schools with hundreds of students submitting work results in a large number of students submitting the same basic program.

      I think the best solution for this is to have students fill out some functions in a program that mostly works. That way the teacher could change a few things each year and prevent students from submitting a generic solution.

    7. Re:Teachers wrong here by xouumalperxe · · Score: 4, Funny

      The problem with this approach is the nature of collage assignments.

      I vote this the most unwittingly insightful comment ever.

    8. Re:Teachers wrong here by dshadowwolf · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There is an old saying - "Those who can - do. Those who can't - teach."

      Not saying that there aren't professors out there who can do what they are teaching. What I'm getting at is you ran into one of the large number that actually fit the old saying perfectly.

    9. Re:Teachers wrong here by Daimanta · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I find this saying utter bullshit. I grew up among teachers and I hear complaints all the time about either stupid students or students with absolutely no manners.

      As an Math undergrad I must say that all my teachers have a deep understanding of the things they are trying to teach me. Unfortunately, some teachers have problems relaying that information to me in a way that I can understand it and that's the major difficulty with teaching.

      And yes, I have had some morons who didn't understand what they were teaching in high school. But there are rotten apples in every profession and I personally sickened by the negative attitude towards teachers around here.

      --
      Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power lost.
    10. Re:Teachers wrong here by smoker2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Except that the old saying was originally to do with physical possibilities and team effort. If a special forces member loses an arm, he is no good in the field, but very useful at boot camp. Do you think that Stephen Hawking was taught his theories or did he learn the lesser stuff then develop his theories on the basis of that earlier knowledge ? As usual, the meaning has been twisted and now it is a pejorative term, instead of a cooperative one. None of you would be anywhere without your teachers, whether that be family or school variety.

      From each according to their ability, to each according to their need.

      Note that's need not want or desire.

    11. Re:Teachers wrong here by smoker2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wow, I bet you're competent !

    12. Re:Teachers wrong here by stephanruby · · Score: 2, Insightful

      or better yet, in what country is this? It's not because a University claims something, that it's legally enforceable.

    13. Re:Teachers wrong here by jgrahn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      [the "those who cannot do it teach" saying]

      Except that the old saying was originally to do with physical possibilities and team effort. If a special forces member loses an arm, he is no good in the field, but very useful at boot camp.

      That sounds right, in a Michael-Ironside-in-Starship-Troopers kind of way. "If you can no longer do Foo, teach others how to do Foo". Do you have any references supporting that interpretation?

    14. Re:Teachers wrong here by plover · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Bad apples stand out in every walk of life. The good, honest competent people (or at least the ones who aren't egregiously stupid) are almost invisible next to the loud and wrong idiots, who draw attention for being both loud and wrong.

      I agree completely that teachers as a profession are maligned more often than is fair. I think much of that is due to their visibility to young people who aren't used to dealing with incompetent people in authority, and having their first taste of "hey, that guy's an idiot! I'm just a kid and I can see he's wrong!" That's a powerful memory maker for just about anyone, and it almost always happens with teachers first.

      --
      John
    15. Re:Teachers wrong here by chthonicdaemon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I have grappled with this problem myself. I am a lecturer at a university (chemical engineering) and I taught our introductory programming course using Matlab. I believe that it's crazy to have tests on programming where you don't have references or a computer with you, so I set alll my tests as open book, with computers in front of the students. I gave many small assignments throughout the semester and one large assignment at the end. The students uniformly hated the subject. Some of their concerns were that the tests were "too unpredictable."

      You can't blame faculty alone for courses being the way they are -- the students have learnt how to play the game. You work many old papers and basically end up memorising the classes of problems that can be asked. This behaviour leads to a sort of conundrum: if you keep setting new and interesting papers, you will start running out of problems that are within a certain difficulty level. Your students will hate you because they can't prepare for your tests they way they are used to. If you set similar papers (or recycle papers) the first-time difficulty of each paper remains the same, but the apparent difficulty of your subject decreases because your subject is easily gamed by people not interested in mastering the subject but rather passing your tests.

      From the educator's perspective, testing is hard in computer-based subjects because a realistic test (like a project) is trivially easy to copy and testing within a realistic timeframe restricts you to such simple problems that you run into the problem above. There therefore didacticly valid reasons for wanting to keep the answers to problem sets a secret: there are less students with the self control of using the answers as a solid teaching aid than there are who will use them as a quick shortcut to doing the assignments, just like there are fewer students who can manage their time to meet a single deadline than students who need frequent deadlines to make sure that they stay up to date. Pretending that the students are all just there to maximise their mastery of the subject is unrealistic. Most students are doing courses to get the magic paper that will give them a job (or to please their parents or to figure out what to do or to get a husband/wife or many other motivations).

      --
      Languages aren't inherently fast -- implementations are efficient
    16. Re:Teachers wrong here by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 3, Interesting

      In math, to teach is to do. You can't teach math without solving math problems. And you quickly and easily check if you got it right (just plug in the variables and compute). Everything else has more subjective meanings of correct/incorrect and use more scarce resources than pencil-paper-calculator.

      Many professions pay much better than teaching in college, naturally appealing to most people. That means there are two types of professors: Those that love to teach, and those that have the certificates but can't hold a job in the real world.

    17. Re:Teachers wrong here by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem with this approach is the nature of collage assignments. If you ignore variable names and comments then there is only so many ways to write a short efficient bubble sort.

      I submit if you have to cheat to write a bubble sort you need to find a different major.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    18. Re:Teachers wrong here by muridae · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I had a professor who did something similar. He stored the last ten years of code and test answers, same as some of the frats do. Policy allowed looking at old projects, tests, and answers for practice, but using answers or code directly from them was a violation. He then hired grad students to automate the entire process of checking code against old projects. Same for current semesters, it would compare folks from all sections of a class that might be doing the same project. We all heard, going through the courses, tales of people who copied one line and the comment with it, changed the whitespace a bit, maybe changed a noun to plural, and still got caught.

      It is* supposedly configurable on the back end, since first year projects all look the same but senior level stuff usually has tell-tale traits in variable naming. And the system doesn't flag and fail you, so you don't get busted for copying your own code from a year before. But, since copying your own code from the time you failed the class is not allowed, that does get checked.

      *It's still being used and developed, it appears.

    19. Re:Teachers wrong here by The+Archon+V2.0 · · Score: 3, Funny

      There is an old saying - "Those who can - do. Those who can't - teach."

      Conclusion to be reached from grandparent: Some teachers are idiots.

      I find this saying utter bullshit. I grew up among teachers and I hear complaints all the time about either stupid students or students with absolutely no manners.

      Conclusion to be reached from parent: Some students are idiots.

      Root cause: Some people are idiots.

      Congratulations! You're both right.

    20. Re:Teachers wrong here by dbcad7 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A great deal of it comes from politicians and their "make teachers accountable" speeches, which is an offshoot of the "saving the children" ploy that all politicians use, to appear to be doing something.

      --
      waiting for ad.doubleclick.net
    21. Re:Teachers wrong here by TheLink · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The really useful stuff students learn in school.

      1) How to relate to people who have been given authority over you.
      2) How to relate to peers.
      3) How to relate to people with less power than you.
      4) How to stay in one place for hours without going crazy or driving the people around you crazy.

      #4 is very important if you ever want a desk job. Because very often large companies don't bother firing you even if you don't really do your job properly (or at all) - as long as you can sit down quietly and not go about destroying stuff or bothering everyone else. The boss may be saving you for when the CxO does one of those stupid "I don't care how well you're doing and how you do it, I want 5% workforce cuts". Then you come in handy because that means he can let you go and fewer of his other workers who actually work go :). In lots of big companies they don't care if your dept or division did well and is still doing well - they still want those headcount cuts.

      5) Oh yah, and to get an education... Whatever that is :).

      Hmm I think I've also left out "how to relate to people you are attracted to" but this is Slashdot, and I never managed to learn that anyway ;).

      --
    22. Re:Teachers wrong here by The+Archon+V2.0 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I wondered what possible mental model of programming this person could have where they thought that pulling random punch cards out of a waste bin could possibly be helpful. My conclusion was that they were just trying to get us students consultants to write the code from scratch for them and he random cards were a way to pretend they had already done some work.

      Possibly, but I'm gonna chuck Hanlon's razor at this one: Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.

      After some of the insanity I have seen from people, I'm willing to believe anything. For instance, when trying to set up a printer for someone over the phone (never again...), I hit a dead end. After an hour where I couldn't get them to communicate despite verifying the physical connection three times, I ultimately found out that the printer was parallel and the cable the person was trying to use was USB.

      Why did this person think that resting this USB cable in the general vicinity of the printer's port would somehow work despite my repeated insistence that it had to be plugged and locked into the big wide hole? She had put it in an old box she found from a parallel cable (and when I asked her to describe the cable, she described the picture on the box). There was no malice, she just earnestly believed that cables were cables, and simply resting it in the right box for long enough would allow it to absorb the abilities of whatever cable the box was made for. Now, if you told her that putting a red ribbon (or paper or yarn or whatever) in a box of blue ribbon (paper, etc.) would make the red one blue, she'd tell you you were loony.

      So, yeah, there's some people out there who seem normal, but have absolutely insane and illogical ideas when it comes to technology they don't understand. And without proof to the contrary, I by default count students as members of the general public, to be treated with the same assumption of insanity.

    23. Re:Teachers wrong here by natet · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Good profs at the very least work on a 4 semester rotation of courses where you're going to have to dig up a student from a few years ago at least before you have an easy "tweak and resubmit" assignment. Any instructor that dishes out the exact same projects semester after semester isn't showing any commitment, and certainly isn't staying with the times. Computer science is in such a continuous state of flux that any prof that isn't consistently reworking their coursework isn't doing their job.

      Depends on the school. I'm and adjunct professor at a local satellite campus, and I teach the same class every year. The topic is data structures, and not a lot changes year over year when you're talking about something so fundamental. I have changed my curriculum each year, but only because I have yet to find a book that I feel really treats the topic well. Each book has some high points and some glaring low points, but I dream of the day when my lectures actually become somewhat static. I spend way too much time tweaking my lecture notes.

      Also, you don't seem to have considered that in some courses, each programming assignment builds on the one before. By posting his assignments, even after the due dates, he may be influencing his fellow students in the follow on assignments.

      --
      IANAL... But I play one on /.
    24. Re:Teachers wrong here by Jim+Robinson+Jr. · · Score: 2, Insightful

      While I generally agree with your perspective about teachers, please keep in mind three things.

      1. Math is a core competency that does not fundamentally change. Adding, Subtracting, Multiplication, Division... even Calculus and beyond... has not changed, and it won't. What you learned in school will still be correct when you retire. The body of knowledge may grow and evolve, but the core won't change.
      2. There are many other focus areas like this.
      3. Computer science is NOT one of them! What I took in college 20 years ago may still form a foundation for my knowledge, but it's not relevant to today's students.

      This makes the field of computer science different and necessitates teachers keeping up with the industry... something most CS prof's simply do not and can not do. Some - perhaps even many - are great and will do everything possible to give their students relevant, current information.

      I think that the negative attitude toward teachers you perceive is geared toward a narrow slice of the profession.

      J

    25. Re:Teachers wrong here by Attila+the+Bun · · Score: 5, Interesting

      This is a lazy instructor working to maintain his laziness.

      Do not underestimate the work involved in preparing a new course. I teach for a few weeks every year, and can easily spend several days preparing a new one-hour lesson. Even recycled material needs updating and revising, and the preparation time is at least equal to the teaching time. Think of the time you spend to prepare a presentation at work. Now imagine spending your whole working day giving presentations, and doing the preparation in the evenings.

      Teaching is a tough job, and only those who believe it's important stick at it. Some teachers are more talented than others, but I've yet to meet a lazy one. A lazy teacher will quickly move to an easier (and better paying) job.

    26. Re:Teachers wrong here by Will.Woodhull · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have worked with a number of teachers in several institutions over the last 25 years. I am not a teacher myself; I have been involved in designing and implementing computer based curricular materials for several types of classes, mostly in health care training.

      There are good teachers and there are bad teachers. But that isn't important.

      What IS important is that there are good institutions whose policies attract good teachers and discourage bad teachers from hanging around. And there are some very bad institutions whose policies (think tenure, teaching contracts, and so on) attract bad teachers and allow them to create a very bad institutional culture that coddles and protects them.

      One major difference between good institutions and bad ones is in the realm of performance measures.

      Good institutions will be willing to talk about the policies they have wrt teaching performance, and show the procedures they use, and the procedures will involve some form of quantification that approximates what is in essence an unmeasurable quality. The majority of professional staff at the Really, Really Good institutions will invite discussions on ways to select better performance indicators or to process the raw results into the stuff that will lead to informed payroll and contract decisions.

      In contrast, bad institutions will have either no performance measure policy, or will pay the concept lip service only: the "procedures" used to implement the "policy" will be so subjective as to be meaningless. There will also be a wall of resistance to discussing this topic across all of the professional staff who would be involved in meaningful performance measures.

      BTW, the "publish or perish" approach is not a useful performance measure. A useful one might be tracking how many students of Teacher A's Tagalog 101 course got passing grades in Tagalog 201 the next year (indirectly using decisions by later teachers to judge the quality of Teacher A's performance).

      Something I would really like to see tried in my state would be to require all teachers of K-12 students to produce one offer of employment from a private sector business every couple of years. While this might lead to losing a few good teachers who got offers they couldn't refuse, it would eliminate the deadwood teachers who truly fit the "them that can't, teach" clause. It would also motivate the lazy bastards who think they can slide by to retirement because they once developed a curriculum 10 years ago, and if it was good enough before the high speed Internet, it should be good enough forever.

      One last caveat: All that a teacher ever does, no matter how good, is to teach; it is always up to to the student to learn. But this is slashdot, where we all spend one weekend a month teaching ourselves some new-to-us programming language, and sometimes actually learning from those weekends. So I'm preaching to the choir.

      --
      Will
    27. Re:Teachers wrong here by IdolizingStewie · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's exactly the problem. It looks like cheating if there's only N logical ways to write something and N+1 students in the class. A dumb/mean (take your pick) prof once accused a friend of that very thing on a final exam, causing him to stress out and lose weight for 4-5 months before the case came before the honor council, where he was acquitted in the shortest deliberation on record.

    28. Re:Teachers wrong here by Trepidity · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually, a person in a boss-like role issuing stupid and counterproductive directives solely for their own benefit is precisely how reality works, so perhaps the professor here should be commended for inculcating their students in the way the Real World works, rather than clinging to some sort of ivory-tower idealism. Certainly, in Reality, you would have to have several layers of bureaucracy sign off on the code release before you would be permitted to make it public.

    29. Re:Teachers wrong here by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Bad apples stand out in every walk of life. The good, honest competent people (or at least the ones who aren't egregiously stupid) are almost invisible next to the loud and wrong idiots, who draw attention for being both loud and wrong.

      Sort of like the typical Slashdot comment thread, you mean?

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    30. Re:Teachers wrong here by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 2, Informative

      Prevented them from cheating this semester. I'm sure the reason the prof wanted it taken down is so he could easily just copy-n-paste next semester's assignment. This is a lazy instructor working to maintain his laziness.

      Unfortunately, this is not uncommon - I see it somewhat often in our university department. I am not sure it's always laziness, though. There appear to be a significant number of faculty who think teaching is beneath them. Their research is all that matters, and they'll do what they can to minimize the amount of time they have to spend on teaching - or to get out of it altogether.

      Personally I think universities should abolish practices like course buyouts and TAs doing the actual teaching, and strictly require faculty to spend X amount of hours in front of a classroom every year. Faculty who think teaching is a waste of time (and I have heard exactly those words!) should be working in industry, not qualifying for tenure at a state-supported institution.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    31. Re:Teachers wrong here by Dragonslicer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's exactly the problem. It looks like cheating if there's only N logical ways to write something and N+1 students in the class.

      One of my more entertaining memories from my college classes was in the intro ECE class that CS majors had to take, where part of the class was learning Motorola assembly (I think we used 68HC11 processors). The professor would frequently give the class a short problem to do during class, then have a couple students put their solutions on the chalkboard next to his. I was one of the ones that wrote mine up on the board, and my solution was exactly the same as the professor's, right down to the variable names (or maybe it was registers or labels, I can't quite remember which). Of course this was only about ten lines of assembly, so there were very few correct/best ways to solve the problem, but the first thing the professor said when we went over our solutions was that no, he and I didn't discuss the problem ahead of time. The odds of this happening are quite a bit lower when you get into normal-length homework assignments in a higher level language, but whenever you have more students than possible solutions, you're guaranteed to have at least one duplicate.

    32. Re:Teachers wrong here by quanticle · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Certainly, in Reality, you would have to have several layers of bureaucracy sign off on the code release before you would be permitted to make it public.

      Only if the code was owned by the company. Most employment contracts are work-for-hire, which means that the company gets to keep the fruits of your labor (intellectual and physical) in exchange for providing you with a salary or hourly wage.

      This was not a work-for-hire situation. Therefore, legally, the student would have had ownership of the code, and so wouldn't have had to get permission from anyone to publish it. A closer analogy would have been your boss complaining about code that you developed and published on your own time, with your own resources, while away from work.

      --
      We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
    33. Re:Teachers wrong here by Japie_H · · Score: 3, Insightful

      By posting his assignments, even after the due dates, he may be influencing his fellow students in the follow on assignments.

      I really don't see anything wring with influencing your felllow students. Learning from each other is as valuable (maybe even more valuable) than learning from a book or teacher. Assuming that he did not do things the wrong way. But even if he did things the wrong way you could discuss what is wrong about his implementation and why it is wrong. Those discussions can be very helpful (whether you're explaining or trying to understand why it is wrong)

      I think that the focus should not be on secrecy, it should be on openness. In the end every student is(should) there be there because they want to learn something and they should realize that by copying the work of someone they are going to get in trouble later on. Students will talk to each other and assignments that change very little will be shared anyway, so you'll might as well be open about it and motivate the students to do their own work and stimulate them to work together. That way you'll develop the skills to work together; have more fun because you can share your frustration of not knowing how to handle a certain problem (and finding out that your friends can't either) and you'll learn more because you're enjoying yourself.

    34. Re:Teachers wrong here by HiThere · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't know. Others have reported colleges that require the signing of an agreement that everything you do as a student belongs to the college. Since the decision was "That wasn't unethical" (and I didn't read the original article) the matter of whether the college owned the code didn't come up. (I'm sure it should have. But I think that requiring such an agreement is itself unethical, so...)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    35. Re:Teachers wrong here by falconwolf · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Considering that it was developed while at the institution, as part of a course taught by the institution, likely using the institution's resources, that seems like a particularly poor analogy.

      Seeing as how this was a programming class it's highly likely the student used his own computer not the school's. Heck some colleges are requiring new students in all majors to buy a computer, some include a fee for a laptop.

      Falcon

    36. Re:Teachers wrong here by ImYourVirus · · Score: 2

      I've heard the same thing before, about whatever you do/make on campus is property of the college. I haven't heard of any of those such schools being in the united states, nor would I go to one, regardless of where it was located at.

      Some of the things people do can make some serious cash, why should you goto a school and spend an ass load of money, to write some code that could make you millions of dollars only to have it become the property of the school and them make them money instead of you. That scenario wouldn't ever be acceptable in my book, even if you went to school and got a degree for free. I'd rather have the large some of money than some 'paper degree' which might not make me as much money.

      --
      Why is common sense called that if it's not common?
    37. Re:Teachers wrong here by pasamio · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So by that token does the state own a portion of any profit that the institution generates from their research? If you are arguing the student's code is not their own because they used the resources of the university then his code is the property of the state (or others who fund the university), not the university, as they are the ones providing the resources. And thus if it is the property of the state, it is in fact the property of the public and should be open and out there. Of course no where does it state whose resources he used to produce the code. For myself when I went to university I predominantly used my own resources for assignments and I only used the universities resources when I was required to attend practical classes. More over you miss out that in this case not only is the student paying money to attend (perhaps not the full cost but still an amount none the less) but they are also contributing their time which has a cost as well. Unless you're paying for everything the question of ownership becomes quite complicated. It would be different if the student was a post-grad who was working at the university and paid/supported to work on research by the university but this isn't the case here.

      --
      I always wondered where this setting was...
    38. Re:Teachers wrong here by iamhassi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Actually, a person in a boss-like role issuing stupid and counterproductive directives solely for their own benefit is precisely how reality works,"

      I could not have agreed more. All too often I hear people complain about the stupidest things in the workforce and they don't appreciate they are employed at all. For example, my job has a "coffee club" that costs $6 a month to join if you want to use the break room coffee machine (just regular cheap walmart coffee machine, nothing fancy). A few new hires were use to free coffee at their old jobs and complained loudly about our policy, even "stealing" cups of coffee that the rest of us either paid for or decided not to join the club and therefore did not drink coffee. While no one was fired over it, months later we all remember those involved and it has permanently tarnished their record. All over $6 a month.

      While I understand where this kid is coming from, is it really worth it? Why was he battling so hard to put the code online? Just for the principle? What did he hope to gain by going above his professor's head, to make the professor look stupid in front of his peers? Think next year's professor will remember what this kid thinks of authority? Not saying anything bad will happen, but if it did the kid would always have to wonder...

      I think that's why military people are great in the workforce. They've been trained to do things without question. They have to be, you can't have a dozen men saying "I really don't wanna go up that hill, I hear gunfire and might get hurt. I'll talk to the CO about this when we get back".

      --
      my karma will be here long after I'm gone
    39. Re:Teachers wrong here by TheLink · · Score: 2, Informative

      If kids learn whether it's OK or not to beat up weaker kids that's one important lesson they'll learn about the society and culture they are in.

      --
  2. Problem Solved Many Years Ago by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Interesting

    When I did my undergrad at the University of Minnesota in 2000, they let us know that they took our code that we submitted and stored it in a program with a database. Whenever a student submitted new code, it went through this program. Essentially, some really fancy Hamming Distance that I think might have been similar to FASTA or BLAST algorithms for genetics were employed to score assignments against all the other ones.

    If it was common for students to write assignments -- say they had been given a design template -- then all of the scores would come back rather high. If the TA noticed an outlier, they would investigate. If two submissions came up sufficiently similar, they would investigate.

    It was (of course) never explained in detail how it worked but I bet that today one could take this to many new levels with things like ANTLR that might allow the program to check the inherent structure in code to avoid something trivial like different comments or variable names skewing the results.

    Was it me who was in the professor's situation, I would bite the bullet and code the very basic above application using a web form submission for TAs and Professors. Then I would ask for help from other members of the department and make it a customizable growing project to protect the academic integrity of my school and students. Then I myself would put the opened source on there and run all my students assignments against it.

    Problem solved, you can keep all your assignments static, you lazy bastards :)

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Problem Solved Many Years Ago by Stephan202 · · Score: 2, Informative

      jplag is software that does what you describe (not sure about the technology behind it, though). It compares all student submissions and detects similarities. The site seems to be down currently, but this page gives an overview of what it does.

    2. Re:Problem Solved Many Years Ago by gbjbaanb · · Score: 4, Funny

      Then I would ask for help from other members of the department and make it a customizable growing project to protect the academic integrity of my school and students.

      I'd set it as next year's assignment!

      The following year would be "using the university's cheat-detector algorithm, submit the supplied program such that it successfully passes the detector without raising any investigative points".

      The year after that, "improve the detector to successfully protect against accepting supplied programs A and B such that they are correctly detected as similar".

      Repeat until retirement. (Why did I ever go for a job in the private sector, my talents are obviously wasted here!)

    3. Re:Problem Solved Many Years Ago by reallyjoel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In Sweden, all university thesis'es goes through such a service. www.urkund.se

    4. Re:Problem Solved Many Years Ago by sydneyfong · · Score: 4, Funny

      Repeat until retirement.

      Tenure is sufficient :)

      --
      Don't quote me on this.
  3. FIRST! And welcome to fraternity file cabinets by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 5, Interesting

    FIRST POST!! Oh, dear, you must have all had a good Friday night.

    There's an old practice of fraternities at my college, where they kept file cabinets filled with old homework and course notes of all the classes their members took. I had wondered how some frat boys coasted through so many classes and got so much more sleep than those of us who struggled working to pay for college, paying for food, etc. Then I found out this was one of their most important reasons. It was a known practice, and one of the less publicly mentioned benefits of joining a fraternity.

    Since small-scale publication of old hoomework and course notes, such as what I describe above, has been going on for centuries, it seems completely reasonable that larger scale publication be permitted.

    1. Re:FIRST! And welcome to fraternity file cabinets by Cor-cor · · Score: 4, Interesting

      My fraternity actually used to do this and we've all but stopped now since nobody uses it. The reason is that nearly all of our classes have started posting old exams, answer keys, course notes, and a few of the good teachers will even post past homework. Most classes also have homework weighted pretty lightly so that learning the material (as tested on the exams) is what really matters. With this setup, past homework of course can't be used for cheating, but sometimes seeing something worked out will help make a connection you might not have otherwise and past exams really help take away the horrible feeling of not knowing if you're prepared for a test or not. I will agree with previous posters that if students are able to use past resources to cheat, this is more the fault of a lazy professor than anything.

      Also, back when we did keep study files, it was an "advertised" benefit of joining the house, not swept under the rug as you seem to describe. As far as I know, no one at the university ever had a problem with us or any other house/organization/random group of friends doing it. Now we mainly focus on the fact that we've got older members from a wide array of majors who are willing to help out younger members as needed.

    2. Re:FIRST! And welcome to fraternity file cabinets by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And by using these file cabinets instead of putting in the effort to actually learn the material, these frat boys cheated their way through college and cheapened the value of your degree. Nothing ticks me off more these days than people who treat a college degree as a job ticket (I get ticked off by a lot of people), and that is exactly what these frat boys do: they party for 4 years and get their job ticket, then go out into the market and act like they put in as much effort as someone who spent their time studying and trying to become an expert in their field. Why colleges tolerate this, when they could rectify the problem after just one year of cracking down on cheating (and improve their reputation as a serious academic institution in the process) remains a mystery to me (except for the simple, "they are afraid of losing students and their tuition dollars," argument).

      --
      Palm trees and 8
  4. and the dept head said by legirons · · Score: 3, Insightful

    And threatening to fail a student for reasons other than poor performance in the course is somehow not an "ethical violation"?

    1. Re:and the dept head said by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And threatening to fail a student for reasons other than poor performance in the course is somehow not an "ethical violation"?

      Depending on your metrics, cheating would result in excellent performance, but is a valid reason to fail a student.

      The ethical issue here is whether publishing your schoolwork is enabling cheating.

      The answer is that it is, but it's still not an ethical violation, because (to borrow a term from the land of law) there is substantial non-infringing use.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  5. How to make assignments not recycled? by Mike1024 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Profs â" including me, at times â" fall into the lazy trap of wanting to assign rotework that can be endlessly recycled as work for new students

    For a first year course entitled "data structures and algorithsm" isn't this kind of unavoidable?

    I mean, consider some of the projects on this student's website; things like sparse matricies, longest common substring, recursively solving an occupancy grid map, and so on.

    How much variety can you put into an assignment to implement sparse matricies?

    Of course, even without this student posting his assignments online, students could still google the problems and probably find working solutions, so taking down this one student's assignments isn't going to stop those who feel so inclined from just copying implementations they find through Google, so I'm not sure the teacher would have achieved much even if he had got this stuff taken down.

    --
    "Goodness me, how unlike the FBI to abuse the trust of the American public." -- The Onion
  6. The Professor is an Idiot by PvtVoid · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Simply put: professors do not own their students' coursework. If a student writes a short story as an assignment for a creative writing class, can the professor prohibit the student from later publishing it? To call that academic misconduct would be absurd on the face of it. Now, what is different about computer code?

    Kudos to SJSU for backing the student on this. Beeson is clearly out of line, and I hope that students will make a big stink if he tries to insert some idiotic no-publish clause in future assignments.

    1. Re:The Professor is an Idiot by cptdondo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yup....

      I used to teach comp sci back when.... I had a single assigment that the students worked on all semester. We started out with the basics, and then added more and more features until we had a full-featured program.

      While the assignment never changed, you really couldn't cheat as it would be really difficult to fake your way through months of ever more complex code development.

      The class was typically small enough where I could talk to each student once in a while and probe their understanding of what they were doing.

      Not only is the prof an idiot, he's a lazy bastard as well.

    2. Re:The Professor is an Idiot by introspekt.i · · Score: 4, Informative

      Simply put: professors do not own their students' coursework.

      Professors may not own their students' work, but you may want to check your facts. Many Universities lay claim to the work done by their students in an academic setting. IANAL, but typically the qualifiers for a school to own your work begin to appear when the work you do is done using significant university resources (namely doing work under the guidance of a prof, I know you'll say that many students don't get help from their profs other than the class...but sometimes to some schools this doesn't even matter). It's not that I necessarily agree with this practice, I don't. I've been "victimized" by my own university after it laid claim to a group project that my group had been working on for a school contest. Through a web of legalities the school considered us "students" to be "employees" (albeit employees who paid ~15-20k a year to 'work' at the school) and all employees were required to render IP they had developed in their respective programs to the university. Our app was fundamentally flawed and incomplete, so we opted not to fight the team of lawyers for something that was broken. The whole experience was rather disheartening. All these rules we'd "agreed" to were essentially a part of the shrinkwrap rules you agreed to/were bound to by being a part of the university. The school acted as though this was the modus operandi for a lot of schools, and I couldn't really be sure one way or the other. I recognize that my experience may have been unique, but I've seen similar stories like this, even on slashdot.

      Back to what you were saying, professors probably aren't going to own a student's coursework. Universities, might, however, like in my case if they've set up a rats nest of rules to capture student IP.

    3. Re:The Professor is an Idiot by cptdondo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Good instructors don't recycle their work over and over.

      Anyway, I could see if a lot of work went into developing the assignments. But it really didn't and there is no reason why the prof couldn't develop new and better assignments in response to new tech and student needs. That's part of teaching; you respond to your students, you grow and develop.

      Recycling the same assignment from year to year doesn't say much for the prof and his own development and learning; telling your student to take down a website says a lot about how ignorant you are about the web, Streisand effect, and a few other minor tidbits that have come along since the heyday of COBOL.

    4. Re:The Professor is an Idiot by ultranova · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In the US, a written and signed agreement is necessary for copyright transfer.

      Nah. In the US - and everywhere else, for that matter - all you need is more money than your opponent.

      A policy statement by the university isn't going to cut it.

      The university has more money than the student. Therefore, whatever the university says is the law.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

  7. Amazing by hansraj · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Someday I hope to be a professor, teaching my own classes. The one thing I would like my students to do is respect me as someone who contributes strongly to their development as a person and as a professional. It surprises me that the teacher in question would rather claim idiotic copyright policies just to be able to avoid having to come up with new assignments. I can not think of any purpose this would achieve other than helping him be a lazy ass.

    Even if there was a valid reason for him to ask the student to remove the code, I would expect a teacher to keep the student's intent in mind and try to be as accomodating as possible; clearly the student is taking his homework seriously enough and that is already a good thing that should be encouraged as much as possible.

    1. Re:Amazing by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Someday I hope to be a professor, teaching my own classes.

      I am a professor teaching my own classes and I'm only too happy if my students share their working on how to do things. The point of assignments is to get students doing problems so that they have practice at solving things themselves. Unless they are extremely good this means that they will need help to do some of the assignments. As long as they try the questions themselves first the educational ojectives are satisfied since they have thought about it and will learn and understand how to do things better when they see a solution and then work through it themselves.

      Of course some students may just copy the answer but I use online assignments with differing sets of numbers to minimize this. Besides the exams are worth far more than the assignments and copying without understanding will have a big impact on exam results.

    2. Re:Amazing by loom_weaver · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I spent two terms as a teaching assistant to a fourth year Networking course. After the second term I was already becoming jaded. Half of the students were eager to learn, and the other half... well they'd do the bare minimum to pass. Reading the requirements looking only for the parts that counted for marks and then barely implementing those pieces. Their code was a god-awful mess and while it may have passed most of the bullet points of the requirements it was mostly unusable as a program.

      Perhaps this was just during the dot-com boom and a large portion of the students were taking computer science for the money, not because they liked it or were good at it.

  8. Sharing Code is Good by Murdoch5 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This prof should be taken into questioning by the University. How can he / she agrue that the student commited any breach of ethics. If the profs wants to tell the student that he can fail if he doesn't take his code down then just what does this prof think of Open Source projects. I had a simlar prof at my College who couldn't stand when students shared even the smallest line of code, even a printf.

    I have to give the student credit because he didn't put it up till after the due date, meaning no one could cheat. In either case it's his right to share his code and if he wants to post it then he should be allowed. If another student copies the code then get the other student in trouble and not the original author.

    If a student is dumb enough to copy code straight from a source with out understanding it then they should fail. There is nothing wrong with reading code to understand it and then writing the code yourself in your own style.

    The student who posted his code did nothing wrong, he wouldn't of done anything wrong even if he posted when he finished even if the dead line was not up. His code his choice, as long as he put a disclaimer up saying not to copy it or even the GPL or one of it's variants then he's covered.

  9. I would never have "published" my undergrad code.. by jeffb+(2.718) · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...as I recall, the campus newspaper charged by the line for classified ads.

  10. Re:Real-world skills by maxume · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If, as a professional, you misrepresented the source of the work, it would be just as unethical as the student misrepresenting the source of the work they copied.

    --
    Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  11. The Real Deal: Licensing for Schoolwork by betasam · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The specific case (covered heavily - check Techdirt for one) in question has actually brought in a much larger problem to light. How should students treat code written as part of assignments or as part of their course-work in terms of licensing? Is there a precedent for licensing? Most research activities conducted by universities have already adopted licensing framework. Here's an example. There has been debate whether such licensing should be free. Just check Medical Research and you can open Pandora's box. One more example is Singapore's A-Star which is more of a group focused on preparing research for industry adoption including licensing and legal usage terms.

    How about code released in books on Data Structures, Algorithms, Fundamental C programming? To my knowledge (do correct me if I am wrong), the code is usually licensed under the same copyright notice as the book itself. In some cases, the author changes this licensing and makes it available. One example is "Numerical Recipes in C" where the licensing terms of the code from the author(s) of the book is explicit and can be found on a google search.

    When it comes to university assignments, it is no news that the same template (if not the same course material itself) tends to get recirculated over a periodic basis. In some cases this period is annual and in others, the frequency is different. The debate raised is ages old. For most data structure or standard assignments of programming, you could find most of the code online. You could use this as a starting point or choose to write your own and learn your fundamentals. That's up to the student and the professor who is teaching and grading.

    There is some truth in the statement (IMHO) that the Academia is shielded from the real commercial world. It works positive in some cases and is counterproductive in fields like Engineering (not Theoretical Computer Science.) In this specific case, if the University were to read all the fine print they have on students sharing course material (for which they pay for) and lecture notes and assignments, they would find the right solution. Bringing this (issue between a student and the professor) out to Open forums seems more of a publicity stunt that is going to get someone infamous for some and noticeable for a few others.

    Focusing on the larger issue, a Varsity must be clear on how course-work and assignments from the students will be licensed and treated. They already have set legal precedents for most research work (which in some cases is funded by commercial bodies.) Hopefully this issue raises a flag and lets varsities understand and embrace Open Source, encourage students to use it particularly in programming assignments. At the very least they should at least reserve procedures to let a student obtain due permission for displaying his/her works online under appropriate licensing. In the absence of a precedent and clear guidelines, such confusion and unnecessary nerve wracking experiences between a Professor and a Student are more likely to surface. I hope not.

    --
    No Greater Friend, No Greater Enemy! (Lucius Cornelius Sulla)
  12. Outsourcing is the new method for cheaters by jrhawk42 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I can sort of see where the professor is coming from. This is similar to a student posting scan-tron results from a test, but unlike the scan-tron results this actually has other uses besides cheating. Anyway copying is now an archaic form a cheating, and it seems most students who are going to cheat are moving to outsourcing. Instead of buying an essay that was already written, they pay a professional to write it, or in this case they pay a programmer to write it. Most professors won't do much until it becomes a problem, and even then there's really nothing the school can do until they find the original writer, or the student confesses. Most teachers will just increase the workload trying which pretty much just tortures everybody instead of just the cheaters. Hell about 2 years ago it seems like schools were almost proud there CS students were outsourcing.

  13. CORY DOCTOROW IS NOT A "PROF." by kklein · · Score: 4, Informative

    A professor is someone with a PhD who is tenured at the university in question. Cory Doctorow, if I am to believe what I have read (blessed and purified by The Man Himself), doesn't have so much as a bachelor's. The fact that he has been allowed into the front of university classrooms does not make him a "prof." That being said, we can't really hold that mistake against him as he does have all the education of a glass of water.

    Me, I've been teaching university in the US and Japan for 6 years. I, too, am not a "prof." I was pretty stoked when I started this job in April and moved up from "Senior Lecturer" to "Assistant Professor." My former boss in the US runs an entire state university's Japanese program, and has done so for 20 years. Her title? "Lecturer." Why? No PhD, just a master's.

    This right here is the core reason I loathe Cory Doctorow. He constantly blows himself up to be things he clearly is not. The moment my opinion of him turned for good was the moment in the talk he gave to Microsoft, wherein he described himself as a "half-lawyer." My buddy who just finished law school but hasn't found out if he passed the bar yet is a "half-lawyer." Some Drew Carey lookalike who writes about as well as you would expect from someone who graduated from a "free school," and who likes to pontificate endlessly about legal issues is not.

    I would post this on Boing Boing, but I was banned for posting something similar.

    1. Re:CORY DOCTOROW IS NOT A "PROF." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      But but... He's Cory _DOCTOR_ow! If you've got DOCTOR in your name, you've gotta be a smart, intelligent, and sophisticated individual!

      If he put the Dr. at the start, he'd be "Dr. Ow", and what kind of message would that give his readers? I know I feel pain when I read his commentary!

    2. Re:CORY DOCTOROW IS NOT A "PROF." by cvd6262 · · Score: 2, Informative

      A professor is someone with a PhD who is tenured at the university in question.

      So, a "visiting professor" is not a professor?

      Actually, no, it's not. "Visiting Professorships" are a bit like "honorary degrees."

      In some place (UK, I think) you're only a "professor" if you fill an endowed chair. Now, here in the US, it differs a little by institution, but typically both tenured and tenure-track faculty (assistant, associate, and full professors) are considered "professors."

      But a "visiting professorship" is usually not on par with even an "assistant professorship." For example, many mid-level institutions will hire people who are working on their doctorates (usually ABD: All But Dissertation), but they're given the rank of "visiting professor" and kept off the tenure track. This can mean they have to submit for review each year, rather than every three-years for "assistant professors." Also, "visiting professors" usually don't get a vote in department matters.

      Once they're hooded, their the get promoted to "assistant professor," and their tenure clock starts.

      --

      I'd rather have someone respond than be modded up.

    3. Re:CORY DOCTOROW IS NOT A "PROF." by bcrowell · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I would post this on Boing Boing, but I was banned for posting something similar.

      I like Doctorow's writing, and I used to enjoy reading and posting on boingboing. What drove me away from boingboing was their habit of deleting posts, etc. The problem is that Doctorow (a) is the world champion at self-promotion, (b) encourages people to form a community on boingboing, rather than treating it as a personal blog, (c) has a habit of getting into controversies, and (d) has folks working on boingboing who delete posts that he doesn't like.

      There would be nothing wrong with d, deleting posts, if it weren't for b and c. If you try to take the other side on one of the controversies, your post gets deleted. That means it's not really a community, it's cheerleading section.

    4. Re:CORY DOCTOROW IS NOT A "PROF." by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A professor is someone with a PhD who is tenured at the university in question.

      No. A professor is someone who is given the title by the institution, period. Most universities won't do this without a PhD or equivalent degree, true, but someone who has been given the title is properly referred to by the title. And if your job title is now "Assistant Professor," you are in fact now a "prof." I'm no bigger a Cory Doctorow fan than you are, but if he has been given a job title which includes the word "professor" by an accredited institution of higher learning (I have no idea of this is so) then he is too.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    5. Re:CORY DOCTOROW IS NOT A "PROF." by Homburg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I have no idea why you think a PhD is a formal requirement for being a professor. Of course, most professors do have a PhD, but it's not completely unprecedented for people to be so obviously brilliant as undergraduates they get an academic post before doing a PhD and so, in time, become a professor without ever getting a doctorate; Quentin Skinner is an example.

  14. Re:HR screeners without clue by dr_dank · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...especially insufficiently clueful screeners in human resources departments.

    This is absolutely true. If that HR wonk doesn't have that "degree requirement" checkbox marked, your resume takes a one-way trip to the trash can. With degree inflation being what it is, you'll need a Phd to work at McDonalds in ten years.

    For that eventuality, I'm still working on my thesis titled: "Recidivism in McDonaldland: A Restorative Approach to the Hamburglar Problem".

    --
    Where does the school board find them and why do they keep sending them to ME?
  15. College debt - poor economic choices by anegg · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Cory - If a student is going to be spending most of their working life repaying their college loans, they made a bad choice of college. Perhaps we need a bigger emphasis on economics while the student is in high school.

  16. Victims of circumstance ... by MacTO · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yeah, instructors who reuse assignments and expect students to pay the price for that suck. On the other hand, those instructors are just as much the victims of circumstance as the students.

    Simply put, instructors are not paid to develop courses and assess work in any manner that can be considered pedagogically sound. On top of that most professors (heck, even most school teachers) have responsibilities that extend beyond classroom teaching. So most of them are expected to use curricular materials that were developed once and used many times over, while reading at a speed more appropriate for an entertaining novel than a serious academic discourse. Instructors who go beyond that are virtually always sacrificing their own personal lives in order to improve the quality of education.

    Teaching at any level is hard. Teaching in over crowded introductory university courses (that are often used to fund smaller upper year courses) is among the most challenging jobs that a professional can do. And, unfortunately, I doubt that battles like this one are doing anything to address the issue of the quality of education.

  17. "Real World" vs Academia by bussdriver · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I am sick of anti-intellectuals belittling academia and the educated for being out of touch with the so called "real world" implying that they - the insecure - are somehow more in touch with "reality." Its most often an attempt to undermine the benefit of actual expertise and critical thinking skills to create a level playing field where often there shouldn't be one.

    If one actually digs, you find that reality is so big and complex that all aspects can not be covered (especially with limited time even with a limited scope... one can get into endless debates about how to limit the scope too.) Its an appeal to ignorance which often traps intellectuals who if they are honest with themselves have a good idea of how little they know of "reality" even in their field of expertise. The US media often takes two sides and presents them as equal when 1 can be pathetically inadequate; a similar tactic.

    Often the "real world" person is conceding ideals the academic is not; which are part of a different side debate I've rarely seen the "real worlder" willing to explore. At its heart, Academia explores the real-world at depth and tries to abstract (to help comprehend) and explain the nature of reality-- so its quite an odd claim it is out of touch with reality when its purpose is to better understand reality. Now, sure it can't cover everything and even a moron could contribute something constructive-- the infinite scope of the problem allows for that and many academics can forget this (which is easy to do just from conditioning from interaction with "normal" people.)

    Modern culture has raised the money makers into the new high priests of our society and finally in recent years their status is being questioned (just a little.) Over a generation ago, scientists were the high priests who were going to take us to space and solve all the worlds problems with their mighty science. They didn't accomplish these unrealistic ideals (which wasn't heavily promoted on their part) so it stands to reason many people were disillusioned; lack of significant progress in recent times prevents a repeat on the same scale as before. (Computers almost did but people were more jaded.)

    1. Re:"Real World" vs Academia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Lets go the other direction then. I've been studying the works of Edsger Dijkstra and Kurt Godel, getting heavy into the theory and logic behind Computer Science. However, schools seem to be "dumbing down" degrees so to speak and aren't teaching this heavy theory stuff that would be highly beneficial.

      Heavy theory or heavy practical would be quite useful in most applications, or even an even mix, but they're really trying to pump out too many people with degrees they shouldn't have. Here's an article from Harvard itself denouncing the grading systems of most universities.

      I honestly think the problem isn't that colleges have lost touch with reality, so much that they've become too much like companies themselves. Colleges are largely supposed to teach the subjects to greater or lesser degree but they've become so wrapped with bureaucracy and Dilbert/Corporate-style inefficiency that we end up with this mess that we have today.

      I started working on GCC and getting a copyright assignment from my school in order to work on it was like pulling teeth from a pissed off tiger during mating season. It was wrapped with college "policy" and reiteration of common knowledge while being thrown from department to department while no one actually helped. It was only after involving the FSF's lawyers did anything get done.

  18. CS in a state of flux? Please show me! by jonaskoelker · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Computer science is in such a continuous state of flux

    Really?

    Maybe I have a view of CS that's be artificially narrowed through only being taught the things I have been taught, but:

    In the last ten years,

    • Are there any paradigm shifts?
    • Are there any major new subbranches being started?
    • Are there any fundamental notions being challenged?

    In short, how has CS changed?

    The Church-Turing thesis still stands unchallenged. No one knows whether P equals NP. The parallel revolution is still in the future (even though algorithm guys study parallel algorithms). We still don't have quantum computing or biocomputing worth talking much about (yay, we can factor 21---into 4 and 6). By and large we still parse languages into a LALR(1) grammars like in... the 70's? User interfaces, they're still mouse-and-keyboard, Window/Icon/Menu/Pointer.

    Exactly what do you mean when you say "Computer Science is in flux"? What's fluctuating?