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"Burning Walls" May Stop Black Hole Formation

KentuckyFC writes "Black holes are thought to form when a star greater than 4 times the mass of the Sun explodes in a supernova and then collapses. The force of this collapse is so great that no known force can stop it. In less massive stars, the collapse cannot overcome so-called neutron degeneracy, the force that stops neutrons from being squashed together. Now a Russian physicist says another effect may be involved. He points out that quantum chromodynamics predicts that when neutrons are squashed together, matter undergoes a phase transition into "subhadronic" matter. This is very different from ordinary matter. In subhadronic form, space is essentially empty. So the phase change creates a sudden reduction in pressure, forcing any ordinary matter in the star to implode into this new vacuum. The result is a massive increase in temperature of this matter that creates a "burning wall" within the supernova. And it is this burning wall that stops the formation of a black hole, not just the degeneracy pressure of neutrons. This should lead to much greater energies inside a supernova than had been thought possible until now. And that's important because it could explain the formation of high energy gamma ray bursts that have long puzzled astrophysicists."

13 of 100 comments (clear)

  1. Burning walls... by V50 · · Score: 4, Funny

    I'm sorry, but after reading the title of the article, all I can think about is all that spicy food I ate last night...

    1. Re:Burning walls... by JustOK · · Score: 5, Funny

      They're talking interstellar, and you can't see past Uranus.

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
  2. I love this kind of story by Alcimedes · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I never like when scientists can't explain a major aspect of something like a black hole. They have models/predictions etc., but there are these little pieces that are missing.

    Then someone comes along with an elegant solution that fits perfectly into the existing theory/model/design and suddenly all these unexplained pieces make perfect sense.

    That is what science is about. Revelation based on fact, not faith. At the end of the day I think it's a lot more rewarding, although a lot harder to come by.

    1. Re:I love this kind of story by Kerrigann · · Score: 4, Informative

      Facts... like unexplained Gamma Ray Bursts?

      I mean, this is more of synthesis of existing observations rather than *new* observations, but it's still science.

      It's taking unexplained observations and incorporating those observations into better theories that fit the data. I'm not an astrophysicist, and this still seems like it's just an hypothesis, but I guess I don't see where the problem is.

    2. Re:I love this kind of story by steelfood · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There's nothing wrong with faith per se, except when it interferes with observable reality. But it's not faith because it's recognized as one of many possibilities and has a probability attached to it.

      What you're seeing is that this possibility is the most probable, which is why it is favored over the other myriad of possibilities. But when some new data comes along, this idea may be strengthened or weakened, and it may eventually lose its favored status to another possibility. Sometimes, but relatively rarely, a possibility is so probable that it becomes generally irrefutable (but the minutae are usually still in the works), in which case, it becomes theorem a.k.a. fact.

      Of course, even facts can be changed with new data. "Refined" is probably the correct term. Facts don't get turned upside down, but they may get marginalized, or slotted into a larger, more general fact, or pieces may be replaced with better ideas. For example, gravity being the 4th fundamental force is a fact, but the mechanism behind gravity isn't understood. So some data may come along to explain gravity, or to turn gravity into one of the other 3 fundamental forces, or to make gravity only a small part of a much larger 4th fundamental force. But since no such data exists as of now, gravity remains as it is.

      That is science.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    3. Re:I love this kind of story by Mark_in_Brazil · · Score: 4, Interesting

      When I was an undergrad, I worked on CASA, the Chicago Air Shower Array. It was a big array of detectors in the Utah desert, designed to identify point souces of ultra-high energy gamma ray bursts and get more information about the showers of particles they create when they hit the atmosphere.

      It's nice to see a model that could conceivably give an idea of how gamma ray bursts happen. In 1988-89, there really weren't any very good candidates. The problem was interesting enough to get James Cronin, who had won a Nobel Prize with Val Fitch for their discovery of a certain kind of symmetry violation in particle physics, interested in experimental astrophysics. He was one of the principal scientists on the project. And he even did some manual labor, like helping with wrapping detectors. I remember him eating the lunch he had brought from home and talking to me about the health benefits of garlic as we worked on preparing detectors one day.

      Each box had four detectors in it, each detector made of a piece of scintillator with a big photomultiplier attached, all wrapped in black to make it light-tight. In addition to an identifying number, the grad students gave each box a name. Some were named for blues musicians, for example. At some point, the undergrads working on the project started expressing creativity by using made-up names to sign the detectors we had prepared and tested. To this day I wonder if Cronin ever saw the one I had signed as "Cronan the Barbarian."

      --
      "It is nice to know that the computer understands the problem. But I would like to understand it too." --Eugene Wigner
  3. QCD Phases by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 3, Informative

    That's an interesting article. New QCD phases have been postulated for quite a while (colour superconductors etc.) but last time I talked to an expert on it and asked whether it could account for the missing energy in a Supernova (currently SN models seem to fizzle more than explode) his reply was that the phase change was too slow to release enough energy to help the SN go bang. I'll have to read the paper to see it this idea addresses this issue.

  4. Re:Only works for really big stars... by spidercoz · · Score: 5, Funny

    Welcome to the Max Planck Subatomic Cavalcade of Freaks! See! the Degenerate Neutron! Behold! the Strange Quark! Find! the Higgs Boson!

    --
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Evelyn Beatrice Hall, re Voltaire
  5. Re:Spoiler! by ericrost · · Score: 3, Informative

    Reading comprehension FAIL: exactly the opposite is true. Our star will NOT supernova and form a black hole because our sun is EXACTLY one solar mass (being the star that scale is based on) which is less than eight solar masses.

  6. Re:Scientific method to the rescue by michaelwv · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That's exactly what we will do. This hypothesis will be quantified into making predictions about what we will see from supernovae and gamma-ray bursts (and perhaps other events). We will then plan and conduct observations of these events and see if the predictions of this hypothesis are consistent with the new data. A lot of interesting ideas like this come out but then stall for a while as people try translate qualitative ideas into quantitative predictions. Once that happens we can go out and test them.

  7. Re:Spoiler! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Our star will NOT supernova and form a black hole because our sun is EXACTLY one solar mass

    And that PROVES the existence of God. I mean, what is the chance that OUR sun is EXACTLY one solar mass? There must be hundreds of suns in the universe and we got the ONLY exact one because WE are Gods CHOSEN.

  8. Re:wowsa ! by reverseengineer · · Score: 4, Funny

    Create some subhadronic matter and see if it causes a region of space with lower pressure than the surrounding space. As a bonus, measure the temperature of that space before and after the pressure vacuum stabilizes.

    Show all work. Write legibly in #2 pencil or blue or black permanent ink. Do not write on test booklet. Do not start until signaled to do so by your proctor. Destruction of the earth will result in automatic failure. You will have three (3) hours.

    --
    "FDA staff reviewers expressed concern about the number of patients who were left out of the study because they died."
  9. observational tests? by bcrowell · · Score: 4, Informative

    There are a lot of very difficult theoretical problems involved in trying to describe the structure of neutron stars. The classic picture of a star made of nothing but neutrons is probably not quite right, and is possibly qualitatively wrong in important ways. There's supposed to be an upper limit on the mass of a neutron star, and the theoretical uncertainties get greater as you get closer to this mass limit. E.g., it's possible that you get quark stars. We just don't know, because we don't know the behavior of the strong and weak nuclear forces with sufficient precision to be able to extrapolate to these extreme conditions.

    Given all that uncertainty, which has existed for many decades, it's not at all surprising to me that there's a corresponding uncertainty about the conditions under which a neutron star is or isn't unstable with respect to collapse into a black hole. The paper, which is linked to from the end of the Technology Review article, is pretty heavy going. My field is nuclear physics, not relativistic astrophysics, and I had a hard time understanding it. The author's English is also pretty hard to understand, so it's hard to tell exactly what he's saying his conclusions are. But if you look at the end, he seems to be suggesting that black holes actually do not form.

    I wonder to what extent existing observations constrain this idea. For instance, we know that the Sagittarius A* object at the center of our galaxy has a mass of at least 3.7 million solar masses and a radius of less than 6.25 light-hours. It would be interesting to know what he proposes this object is, if he says it's not a black hole.