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Anonymous Newspaper Commenters Subpoenaed In Tax Case
skuzzlebutt writes "In a federal tax case reported in the Las Vegas Review Journal last week, a local businessman has been paying his employees in gold coins instead of cash or ACH, and has reportedly told them that they can only be taxed on the face value of the coinage — not the much higher market value of the metal. The United States disagreed, and brought him up on 57 counts of income tax evasion, tax fraud and criminal conspiracy. The non-authenticated comments section of the original article brought a lot of supporters out of the woodwork, including a few who thought the jury should be hung (literally, procedurally, or figuratively ... pick one). In response, the prosecution has subpoenaed the names of the anonymous commenters, citing fears of jury safety. Or something. The obvious questions of privacy and protected speech aside, for the folks that support the defendant (the newspaper is fighting the subpoena), this also brings back into the spotlight the troll-empowering nature of pseudo-anonymous, non-authenticated boards. If they want to find you, they will; is anonymous commenting still worth it, or is it just too risky for the board owners?"
..what a terrible summary
"No State shall [...] make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts [...]"
--Article 1, Section 10 of the United States Constitution
Federal Reserve Notes are nothing but counterfeit money.
Anonymous commenting is no longer worth the effort.
AC OUT!
I don't trust the government to protect my rights, but in this case they may have a point. Threatening people with bodily harm is illegal, and freedom of speech is not a valid defense. If you choose to break the law, then you're giving the cops permission to hunt you down and prosecute you, "anonymous" or not. (Even if the law is a bad one and the cops are thugs controlled by a petty dictator.) (Iran, et al.) Which doesn't mean that I think anonymity is bad; I just think that you should learn a little bit about the law and about search warrants and about technology before you start your life of crime. (True anonymity is necessary to defend freedom, even if it means a thousand Cletuses and Bubbas can use it, too.)
I believe that in the (implied, non-existant) Internet charter of rights anonymity is a basic human right. I believe in opt-in, not opt-out. A webmaster has a sacred trust that he will guard his users' IP addresses and only leverage them for internal use, if at all. Besides, that IP address could have been used by the subscriber, a child, a wardriver, a cheapskate nextdoor neighbour, or an entirely different household if the ISP made a mistake in their logs.
On my blog I allow anonymous comments and I wrote "(optional)" next to the email and WWW fields on the comment submit form. I get TONS more spam because of this, but that's a service I feel is essential to my readers and integral to the fabric of the web.
If the government fears how people react to facts then maybe they should outlaw news media.
The judge should look at each comment individually as well as holistically against other comments apparently by the same commenter.
If the comments appear to be a credible and actual threat against a juror, as opposed to someone blowing off steam, making non-credible threats, or just blowing off steam, then it's worth a closer look.
To determine if unauthenticated comments apparently made by the same commenter are made by the same commenter I would order the newspaper to provide a statement saying the comments are very likely from the same computer, very unlikely from the same computer, or there is no way to tell. If the post looks like it's from the same person, and the computer is the same, the court can assume it's the same until someone claims otherwise.
Now once I have a list of comments that are credible threats, then it's time to go further:
I would give a special master subpoena power for the IP and login-time information for those posts and subpoena power to the ISPs for the approximate street address of the customer. The court would use this to determine if the seemingly credible threats really were credible. If a threat said "I'm going to walk into your office and shoot you" but the threat came from a town 3 states away, that's likely not credible. Once I've gotten down to the credible threats, then and only I would allow the person's name and address to be subpoenaed. I would also look very favorably on anyone who, upon being contacted by the court or the police, claimed they were joking or blowing off steam. After all, out of every random group of people making credible-sounding threats like these, by far most are harmless.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Does anyone know why forum administrators even bother keeping around enough information to reveal the identity of an anonymous poster?
I mean, I can see keeping around the web server logs for a day or two, to help debug problems. And if you do analytics, keeping the logs around long enough for the analytics software to compute aggregate data.
But why keep any data longer than that; especially data that's detailed enough to tie an IP# to a posted message?
So on the one hand we take Gold Coins and use the Ore Value, while on the other we take Quarters and use the Face Value.
So lets say I take my pay check and head off to the bank and when cashing it, get a roll of pennies. Further suppose that one these pennies has some rare quality making it worth $100 to a collector... is that an extra $100 of Income?
"His name was James Damore."
...is anonymous commenting still worth it, or is it just too risky for the board owners?
Absolutely!
Posting AC so they don't find out who I am.
This guy's the limit!
This means that if my employer pays me in nickels then I also must pay more in income tax to the feds as a nickel is worth more then five cents in pure metal value these days.
No, you can go to the bank and get nickles for 5 cents each. You can not go to the bank and get $20 gold pieces for $20 each.
If you were melting down the nickels and selling the bulk metal you would be in violation of more than tax laws.
Both the IRS and Kahre are in the wrong here.
The Government is required by LAW to recognize American currency at face value. They have no choice in the matter. The government's isregarding face value of "legal tender for all debts, public and private" is illegal. The government issued that currency (or authorised its issuance) for the face value and require it to be accepted as such so they have no legal choice but to accept it for the value they declared it to be.
However, if he wants to play the "face value" defense, which is legitimate (he should win that case) what he should be charged with is violating the federal minimum wage laws, not tax evasion.
What he and his employees engage in is tax avoidance, which is perfectly legal. Tax avoidance is simply following the letter of the law and avoiding the incurring tax liability. Practically every politician engages in avoidance. Things such as claiming one's standard exemption, creating a shell company and having it lease one's vehicle for business purposes, and so forth. If I ever make the kind of money where it makes sense to do so, you bet your ass I would hire a tax lawyer and take advantage of the law to the my benefit. The tax code is needlessly complex for three things: to keep lawyers busy and make them rich, for social engineering (keep citizens in line by making them accept government control), and to benefit politicians who create hard-to-understand loopholes for their own use.
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
Sending someone a snail mail death threat implies you know who they are and where they live. Going to the trouble of a physical cut and paste from magazines implies you are willing to expend time and effort on your threat.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
And should they have been prosecuted? They formented a war ya know.
Publius, Pacificus, Cattalus, Horatius and Philo Camillus, Silence Dogood, Alice Addertongue, Fanny Mournful, Obadiah Plainman, Busy Body, Populus, An American, A Son of Liberty ,"Vindex the Avenger".
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
"Reportedly told them that they can only be taxed on the face value of the coinage -- not the much higher market value of the metal"
The money paid is 100% legal United States Currency, minted by the United States Government itself.
The US constitution specifically states that gold an silver are legal tender.
What's the problem? It's not his problem that the US government has destroyed the value of money so that "old" but perfectly legal currency is now worth 1000 times more than it's equivalent "new" money...IF the government doesn't like it they need to change the law and outlaw the gold coins that they mint as legal tender.
Otherwise he's being prosecuted for something that "feels" illegal, which is a deadly slippery slope to go down.
So, they can avoid income tax on 99% of their income by being paid in $1000 worth of coins with a total face value of $10. That makes sense.
Surely then, should they choose to sell these they'll pay income tax on any profit they make. If they use them as legal tender, they'll only be able to use the face value. I suppose they might be able to haggle the price of a large purchase down a little but for everyday spending it seems the savings are small.
If the logs aren't there, the subpoena doesn't hurt anything. So I ask what sort of logs does slashdot keep that could conceivably be used to track down an AC? Be imaginative in your answers (e.g. someone could try matching the HTTP access logs against the time the comment was posted(*)). Think like a smart technical cop who really wants to figure this out.
(*) There are probably too many accesses in a single minute to determine that reliably, but it may give you a candidate list that you could then correlate with other data. Like I said, be imaginative.
* Don't touch the envelope or paper without wearing several layers of surgical gloves.
* Don't use a printer that leaves any identifying marks. Most modern color printers are traceable and most older typewriters are as well.
* Don't lick the stamp or envelope!
* Don't drop it in any drop-box that has a security camera anywhere nearby.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
What this guy did was essentially barter gold bullion that happened to be in coin form for labor.
Even if the US government is required to trade a $20 bill for your $20 gold piece, that does not establish the value of the gold piece for tax purposes.
Even a $20 bill can be worth more than $20 if it's a collector's item, such as one that's in an uncut block, one that's old and still in original condition, one that's very old, or one that's been autographed by hand by the Treasurer of the United States or Secretary of the Treasury whose signature appears on the bill.
If I pay my employees in collector-value currency, you bet the IRS will consider it a barter-for-labor arrangement and tax accordingly.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
The money is printed by the Federal Reserve and NOT by the Federal Government. Sheesh, don't you know the difference?
It is legal tender for all debts.
The IRS is NOT prosecuting him for paying in Gold. The IRS doesn't care how you pay someone. Gold, Silver, mud, iron, hell in Nevada even Sex.
What it cares about is its value in USD.
In this case this guy paid in Gold, whose real value is more than what its face value states.
RTFA and research before you open your pie hole.
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
Quarters, unlike gold coins, are legal tender.
Blatantly, outright, not even close, missed by a mile, false. 10 seconds on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Gold_Eagle
Refers you to the US mint government webpage:
http://www.usmint.gov/downloads/mint_programs/am_eagles/AmerEagleGold.pdf
Here's a direct quote from the first page of this US MINT government issued document:
"They're also legal tender"
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
They may be free to say anything, but they must be willing to accept the consequences of what they say in many cases.
Courts have long held (arising out of common law) that some forms of speech are not protected. We have long (even since the time of the framers) had limits on speach: libel and slander. We also have laws that treat threats not as free speech, but as a form of assault (differentiated from striking someone: "battery"--the treatment of "assault" and "battery" will vary depending on the jurisdiction where you reside).
A free people should always be free to express divergent opinions, but there are limits when what is said or written becomes a direct assault on another.
I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
Since I previously worked in a company that's primary business was in running (and selling advertising on) web-forums, I suppose I'd be as qualified as anyone to answer this:
a) The default behaviour of the software is to record IP addresses. It's not like most companies are building their own, they're using something like vBulletin, IPB, or possibly PHPBB. I'm not even sure if this is a feature that could be disabled without a plugin/hack
b) Basic security is tied to IP. Just as does slashdot, so do other forums get their share of trolls. You actually don't see it a lot here, but penis-enlargement, pr0n, scams and spam are also fairly common. The IP address is your only semi-reliable link to a real person, in which case you can block certain IP's or netblocks that become an issue, track down users with multiple accounts. I do say semi-reliably as IPs can be routed through proxies etc, but many boards actually have RBL's for known proxies
c) Advertising, which for many boards is the chief (or only) source of revenue, often ties to IP address. Most programs collect statistics by IP, and also other fun stuff like geo-targetting, rotation (so you don't see the same ad a gazillion times in a row), etc
d) User related to locality can be fairly well-determined by IP. If you've got issues where all your users in the Eastern US connect slowly/poorly, or possibly where you have many users in Western Europe but they have a shit connection, then it may lead you to consider adding services (local server, cache, or whatever) in those areas.
e) The last thing I can think of off the top of my head is statistics, which are also very important to many web-boards to see where they're growing and where they need improvement.
And yes, these work fairly well for 95% of the John-Doe users. Most people, even those who consider themselves clever, don't make much use of proxies or other such things to post secretly on boards, which allows the wheat to be filtered from the chaff fairly well based on IP. Until a better method comes along, it's probably the best way.
p.s. Don't use my own board as an example of something spam-proof. It's using different software than I used at work, gets very little time dedicated to it, and the spam-collection is actually something of interest while I try to come up with fun methods of dealing with the spammers.
I am surprised at the number of Slashdotters who support tax evasion and violent threats.
There's a difference between anonymous threats to random posters on the internet, and anonymous threats directed at jurors in a criminal trial. Obviously, threats to jurors have the possibility of subverting the criminal justice system... which is a pretty big deal. I think the owners of the board ought to cough up the names.
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution,
nor prohibited by it to the States,
are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
Just thought the Federal Government should be reminded.
The employer is required to pay taxes on the amount he pays his employees. As long as the employees properly accounted for the extra income they obtained by selling their currency above its face value, they would not be violating the law (except perhaps for conspiracy or the like if they were more involved in the employer's scheme). The employer, however, clearly knew of the excess value beyond the face value and that needs to be reported.
It's not that hard, or uncommon, to force reasonable values on exchanges like this. In Massachusetts (and probably other states), when you buy a used car, your sales tax responsibility is based on the blue book value for a car of that age and condition, not the actual selling price. This prevents tax dodging by under-reporting the sale price and using some other transaction or gift to hide the actual price. Even beyond minimum wage, it would not be hard (nor unreasonable) to compare the value of the exchange with the going rate for the service in question. If it's way out of whack then asking why is quite sensible. In this case, it's absolutely clear that the intention is to hide wages, and that violates the law.