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Amazon Cuts Off North Carolina Affiliates
Amazon.com has reportedly cut off all affiliates in North Carolina as a preemptive response to the sales tax change being pushed through the state legislature. The Seattle-based online retailer warned affiliates last week that such a move might be necessary, but the early shutoff seems to be a move in hopes of swaying opinion on the proposed legislation. "Local affiliates say they were 'blind-sided' by the company's action. 'I got this e-mail at 4:30 this morning,' said James Barrett, a technology consultant from Winston-Salem. 'It wasn't saying your account will be shut down. It said it is shut down. That just blew me up right there.' Barrett said that he is frustrated at lawmakers for considering the tax, but equally aggravated with Amazon. 'They're trying to tick off all their associates and get them to call down to Raleigh,' Barrett said. 'I think that is pretty tacky. That's not the way to use people who are referring business to your business.'"
That's the real meaning of "voting with your feet". There is an unjust law, or even a just one that Amazon doesn't agree, and they don't want to be subjected to it, so they move out of the state.
... even if it is a bit assholeish. It sends a loud and clear message to the NC government that the legislation will hurt local businesses.
Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.
Local affiliates say they were "blind-sided" by the company's action.
I'm sorry, sir, I normally restrict myself to civil language but you are so full of shit.
I don't even live in North Carolina and recalled reading about 'warning' letters sent to you. Maybe you should open up your e-mails from June 17-18:
We regret to inform you that the North Carolina state legislature (the General Assembly) appears ready to enact an unconstitutional tax collection scheme that would leave Amazon.com little choice but to end its relationships with North Carolina-based Associates. You are receiving this e-mail because our records indicate that you are an Amazon Associate and resident of North Carolina.
Please note that this is not an immediate termination notice and you are still a valued participant in the Associates Program. All referral fees earned on qualified traffic will continue to be paid as planned.
But because the new law is drafted to go into effect once enacted -- which could happen in the next two weeks -- we will have to terminate the participation of all North Carolina residents in the Amazon Associates program on or before that same day. After the termination day, we will no longer pay any referral fees for customers referred to Amazon.com or Endless.com nor will we accept new applications for the Associates program from North Carolina residents.
The unfortunate consequences of this legislation on North Carolina residents like you were explained in detail to key senators and representatives in Raleigh, including the leadership of the Senate, House, and both chambers' finance committees. Other states, including Maryland, Minnesota, and Tennessee, considered nearly identical schemes, but rejected these proposals largely because of the adverse impact on their states' residents.
The North Carolina General Assembly's website is www.ncleg.net and additional information may be obtained from the Performance Marketing Alliance at www.performancemarketingalliance.com. We thank you for being part of the Amazon Associates program, and we will apprise you of the General Assembly's action on this matter.
Sincerely,
Amazon.com
You were warned! Tell us, James Barrett, how many letters did you sent to your representatives demanding they strike down this unconstitutional tax?
Yes, it came early. But you were warned. Unwittingly operating for one day could set Amazon back thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars. They tried blocking it with litigation in New York and they lost. Don't get made at them for playing it safe, you have no one to blame but your elected officials.
My work here is dung.
1. If any of these affiliates were blindsided, it is because they didn't read the notice they were given last week. Of course, a single week's notice is too short anyway...
2. Time for the referral businesses in NC to relocate. Or close up shop. We'd be happy to have them (and their income & property tax revenues) here in NJ.
Of course, now it's only a matter of time before most states have similar laws. Then it'll be time for these businesses to relocate to the Cayman Islands.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
is by biting them where it hurts: their pockets. You can add all the sales tax on out-of-state purchases you want (whether that is federally allowed -- I'm not sure), if you don't sell anything, you don't have anything to tax so revenue will remain 0.
They probably saw what happened in NY and they don't want it to happen everywhere. Amazon decided to add tax to NY purchases and me and a lot of other people stopped purchasing from them because other stores (like NewEgg, TigerDirect and Geeks) were undercutting them by about 8%. Even though my organization is tax exempt I don't purchase at Amazon simply because they don't have the provision for me to state that I am tax exempt.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
That's exactly the way to use people who are referring business to your business. The only thing that motivates a business "relationship" is the exchange of value. If the proposed law was going to cause this change anyway, making it early as an example is the way to get people to "call down to Raleigh."
When the axe came to the forest, the trees said, "Look out - the handle was once one of us."
They're trying to tick off all their associates and get them to call down to Raleigh,' Barrett said. 'I think that is pretty tacky.
Sounds like an excellent way to motivate your local associates to get their arses over to the capital and ride their representatives. There's not a great deal Amazon can do directly to fix this, they have to rely on their local affiliates to keep the local conditions amicable to their business. If the locals aren't moving, then it's time to light a fire under them.
Got their attention too didn't it? Sounds like it's working as intended to me...
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
>Bravo to North Carolina for calling these online retailers to be responsible.
Hope they enjoy no Amazon-related resellers operating in their state.
Taxes are how states compete for business. Raise taxes on a business that can operate anywhere else and avoid the tax, guess what? They are leaving town.
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
It is not the online retailers that are leaching, it is the people who buy from them and don't pay the tax themselves. Do you have any idea what a nightmare it would be for a small online retailer if they had to figure out what sales tax to charge on every transaction in every locality in the country. I am surprised that Amazon didn't shut down all of their NY affiliates because NY has one of the most nightmarish sales tax setups for any retailer without a fixed location. "Yes, I know this is the Syracuse Convention Center, but it is not actually in the City of Syracuse, so the sales tax is 7.25% not 7.5%. You have been defrauding these people, even though you were going to pay all the tax you collected to the state of NY."
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
The Balkanization of commerce isn't a good thing.
Amazon pays its taxes. Get Amazon to head quarter in your community and then you'll get its tax money.
The overhead of tracking tax codes down to the city level (and keeping up to date) would be overwhelming. The only winning move in this case really is not to play and that's what Amazon did.
OK then, riddle me this: what is the sales tax rate for any address in the US? Note that you can't stop at the city plus ZIP code level, in San Diego County there are ZIP codes that're partly in a city (where city sales tax applies) and partly outside the city (where city sales tax does not apply). Where can a company go to find out authoritatively what the sales tax rate is for a customer address? I don't know of any, and it's just not reasonable to require a company to pay sales tax without giving them a way to find out how much sales tax they're supposed to collect.
Finally some business demonstrating some balls. If the tax is being considered, then the locality has an environment hostile to Amazon's business. It doesn't matter if it goes through. The fact that they see nothing wrong with their hostile attitude is enough of a reason for Amazon to declare that they will have nothing to do without them. No business with bullies -- not even with those who associate with bullies by living in their tax base. Good for them!
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
amazon has feet?
Yes. They are unde-feet-ed.
Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.
Right, because it's not bad enough that the affiliates in North Carolina are already taxed on their earnings, but now they have to be taxed on the sales they refer to Amazon? You're talking taxing the same people three times on every sale (Local, State, and Affiliate). Let's not mention the bigger affiliates that are taxed 5 times (2x corporate earnings taxes, IRS personal, State personal, Affiliate)
Oh, and yes, the IRS and states tax the shit out of individuals in business. I don't know where people get the idea of mystical business tax relief, because if you're in business and playing by the law, you don't get a refund check, you send in a damn check every fiscal quarter.
Without any kind of business expenses, I would be taxed 89% on every dollar I made. eighty. nine. fucking. percent. And I'm just barely hovering around the poverty line doing this shit. Then you and your backwards populist shitheads yell at me for not spending money to better myself on college, or buying a car, or some other bullshit.
If your community is in such a dire condition that they absolutely need to tax a person a third time on the same dollar, then your community is completely fucked, needs to be dissolved, have its assets liquidated, and a new structure put in place.
In short: go fuck yourself.
Well, of course. They sell everything.
Can a company move to a US territory and still get all the perks ?
i.e. Puerto Rico ?
I think you need to make your sarcasm a bit more obvious. Someone might get the impression that you actually agreed with NC on this issue. That would, of course, be utterly ridiculous--but given the kinds of people one meets online it's hard to be certain, and not every detects sarcasm well.
"The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
The legislator claims it's not fair that brick and mortar stores collect sales tax and Amazon doesn't. I say the brick and mortar collects taxes according to ONE tax structure in ONE place. What's fair about an out of state retailer having to understand potentially thousands of sales tax structures in many different combinations? Not to mention then needing to keep books on thousands of accounts to make sure the various state and local tax collectors get said taxes.
Unless and until the various legislatures are willing to get together on a simple clearing house to make it easy for retailers to figure out how much to collect and where to send it, they have little choice but to not do business in places that insist on it.
NC is already proving that such questions could be hard to answer. Whose taxes do we collect, the billing address? the ship to address? The address where the affiliate's server is located? NO! We must collect for the physical address of the person who owns the affiliate site. At least this week. No doubt the eventual answer (at least the one legislators will want) is ALL OF THE ABOVE AND MORE! In all different amounts with a whole table full of thresholds, percentages, and exceptions. OH, and different addresses to send the checks to with different required documentation and forms to fill out. Each and every one of them will claim that their tax is very simple and effortless to collect. None will recognize that the sheer volume and lack of standardization makes the matter impossible.
Too bad it has to be that way, but it is much easier to kill a bill than to kill the resultant law. I hope NC's (attempted) money grab was worth it.
We're all hypocrites. We all have hidden parts, it's the contrast between them that make us more a hypocrite than others
I'm sure people in NC would agree to pay rather than stop doing business. There is something fishy in this case.
The "something fishy" is that NC wants to tax Amazon--not the local associates--as if they had a presence in the state, based on their relationships with local associates (who are undoubtedly already paying NC taxes). Ergo, Amazon is severing its NC-based associate relationships to avoid any appearance of a taxable in-state presence.
I doubt that these taxes on out-of-state businesses are even remotely Constitutional, but I don't blame Amazon for playing it safe.
"The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
Where was Amazon when New York passed a similar law? I guess cutting off the entirety of NYC from Amazon.com would prove to be too costly, so they wait for a smaller (and therefore less profitable) state before they decide to play political hardball. It is Amazon's right to pick and choose their battles, I just can't help but think the US would be better off if they would have started this with the first state to try such a stunt rather than picking on the easiest.
I went to eat some animal crackers and the box said, "Do not eat if seal is broken." I opened the box and sure enough..
OK then, riddle me this: what is the sales tax rate for any address in the US?
I've had to deal with sales tax in both Virginia and North Carolina. The truth of the mater is they don't want you to know what the current tax rate is because they make more money when they audit your small business and apply fines a couple years later.
In Virginia my business was fined for not anticipating our GROSS income correctly. We GROSSED more money one year and because of that we had to pay the tax difference plus a couple thousand in fines. I'm just happy we had a CPA because the tax people where screaming murder until I said they would need to talk with our CPA then they where much nicer...
Small business owner's really can't win by playing by the rules...
Do you have any idea what a nightmare it would be for a small online retailer if they had to figure out what sales tax to charge on every transaction in every locality in the country.
Well, we have the internet, databases and computers. Automating this would not be difficult at all. States/cities/etc. would submit their tax rates based on GIS data and the federal government could maintain a database searchable by merchants. If the local units don't accurately represent their sales tax rates, then the onus is on them to fix it.
The technology is not a problem here. We can solve that problem. The real problem is a culture of disinvestment in our communities.
It doesn't matter whether the person in question is a customer, employee, or visiting dignitary. The only criteria that matters is that they entered the property willingly, knowing the conditions. That is as true for employees as it is for customers.
That fact that the business in your anecdote settled doesn't mean they would have been found liable in court--or that they were actually liable, which isn't always the same thing. The customer was liable, if anyone, for breaking the glass and thus creating the situation. However, it doesn't look good for employees to sue customers even when doing so would be justified, so I'm not particularly surprised that the employer settled the matter itself as an act of goodwill.
"The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
if you don't want blacklung don't be a coal miner, eh?
Yes, it is unfortunate that N.C. sellers had to suffer for it, but I have to agree with Amazon's action on this. At every turn, government at all levels seek more and more money rather than taking a hard look at where they are spending it. Ultimately, I believe, they simply want more money to vote themselves higher pay and to return favors of their campaign donors. I wish there were a better way to run government. I vaguely recall one or more SciFi movies in the past where a city became a business or something to that end... the prospect was frightening, but I have to wonder if such a project were applied properly, if it wouldn't be run more efficiently. One problem with current styles of government is that there is little to no incentive to save money or to use it wisely. They have no profit motive and clearly no personal integrity or desire to serve motives. So I have to wonder, what motives would cause governments at local, state and even federal levels to deliver "good service" to the people at the lowest cost possible?
A better example than a patron would be an employee - the vast majority of bars i've frequented left their employees in situations where the had no choice but to breathe in second hand smoke. I know the free-market extremists will disagree, but i think your employer should be responsible for a safe working environment.
I certainly know of someone who got a nasty laceration in his foot from broken glass from a customer spill. The bar settled and covered his medical costs.
That's certainly a different situation than being exposed to second hand smoke, though. If you apply to work at a bar/restaurant where smoking is allowed (which you could easily tell when you were picking up your application), I think you should expect that you'll be around second hand smoke and if that is objectionable - choose not to work there! If you object to working outside in the heat, perhaps you shouldn't apply for a construction job in California - it's not the hiring construction companies job to provide a portable air conditioning unit for you. If you object to working with children - you should probably not try to become a second grade teacher. If you object to working around alcohol - you should not apply to a liquor store. If you object to working around smoke, you should choose not to work at a place WHERE PEOPLE FREQUENTLY SMOKE. You are not entitled to work at whatever job you want with whatever conditions you want, no one owes you the type of job you dream of.
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amazon has feet? are they for sale?
They were, but they've been soled.
-- i am jack's amusing sig file
"The fact is, online retailers have been leeching off communities for far too long. They make use of the infrastructure these communities provide but use tax evasion to make sure they don't contribute to its upkeep."
What infrastructure is Washington based Amazon using in North Carolina?
That's the rub. They aren't.
That is the whole point behind "No Nexus = no tax"
Go for it Amazon! Put the finger in the dike now before we all get flooded out by greedy state governments whose legal justifications aren't even substantial enough to call flimsy. This is like Wal*Mart closing stores that go union because the problems of dealing with the issue overall far outweighs the losses from leaving a given market. I wish that the automobile makers had stood up to the State of California when they went completely nuts on the emissions regulations and instead of saddling us with thousands in additional new car costs, had simply said: "No new cars for you." Who do you think would have blinked first? The automakers? The state? Or the voters?
Yes I'm sorry that people are getting hurt along the way with this, but go out there and get your state back in order once more and this won't be happening.
Disclaimer 1: I sell on Amazon and I'm still all for this.
Disclaimer 2: I lived in California and breathed that air every day.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Amazon does not use any resources provided by the local state government. And yet they would be expected to pay for them? That's called "theft". They use no public roads (delivery companies pay for those through gasoline taxes and vehicle registration payments). They use no police services (they have no physical presence in NC so they have nothing to protect there). They can't take advantage of NC education (since they don't live there, their children can't go to school there). And yet NC thinks they have the right to shake down Amazon? Every honest men hopes this withdrawal of Amazon affiliation takes as heavy toll on NC economy as possible. This type of punishment of thieves would only be just.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
Without any kind of business expenses, I would be taxed 89% on every dollar I made. eighty. nine. fucking. percent.
Bullshit. If that were true, there would be no employers in NC.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
"Do you have any idea what a nightmare it would be for a small online retailer if they had to figure out what sales tax to charge on every transaction in every locality in the country."
As an online AND brick and mortar retailer, I can imagine. It would be DIFFICULT! I mean, you'd have to have some sort of computer program that accessed a table, geez, maybe HUNDREDS of records large, and then report to the business owners where to pay the tax to! I mean, it would take a good, 5-10 minutes for somebody to program, and it would have to be updated every few months. Whoa! Talk about an inconvenience.
That's a LOT more difficult than trying to run a brick-and-mortar store that pays significant amounts of taxes and having to compete against businesses that don't have to collect sales tax from their customers.
Please not this entire post was tongue in cheek. Except for this line. Oh, and the quote I was responding too... that was literal.
Maybe now that they've found their manhood again they will cut off NY once the legal challenges play out. I'd like to see it happen long enough to stop this from spreading any further. States are copycats about this kind of crap.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Without any kind of business expenses, I would be taxed 89% on every dollar I made. eighty. nine. fucking. percent.
I call bullshit. Seriously. I've worked for a number of small companies, and I've never seen any loading or tax liability anywhere near that. What the hell are you doing wrong to get to 89% (my guess? He's calculating it horribly wrong).
Really, I would really like to know, because I would love to rally against it like nobody's business, but I just can't even come close to conjuring up a scenario where 89% is the actual tax liability.
So if you're an affiliate don't do business with Amazon if you don't like it. I'm not saying I think what Amazon did was a good thing but they have the right and they're making a strong point. You also have the right to not do business with them because you don't like how they do business. They vote with their feet you can vote with yours. I actually like to see this kind of thing not because I think Amazon should or shouldn't pay tax but because this is how the market is supposed to solve things.
Hmmm that sounds fishy.
That's been tried many times. People always ignore it until it's too late. By actively and immediately halting business, you can bet the affiliates will raise hell in a timely fashion.
"Threatening" government with pulling out is often weak and empty and used far too often. Eventually, with all the posturing that goes on, someone has to make a move that is exact and meaningful. Amazon made a move rather than attempt to actually "play" politics through threats and posturing. So I have to disagree. Amazon is not playing politics. Surely they have taken into account that they would alienate some people in N.C. but they have to prove they are serious.
Amazon isn't sending lobbyists with bags of cash. Amazon isn't asking sellers to plea to the government. Doing so would, in fact, be playing politics. By making a decisive and definitive action, they are make their statement in the only clean and honest way possible. Begging and threatening politicians is only playing their game. To withdraw is the only way... unless you can think of another?
Undoing a law after it has passed is a good deal harder than preventing it from passing. The DMCA seems to be sticking around regardless of how frequently it is abused and how much it harms the people. It's a bad and unpopular law that could only have been passed in the way it was (subversively) and it's not going away. Amazon is speaking not only to N.C., but to every state of the union. Taxing the internet is a very bad idea just as a state seizing a domain name because the operators who do not operate in the same state is violating that state's law is a bad idea. States should never exceed their borders and yet attempt to do so at every opportunity.
They have no profit motive and clearly no personal integrity or desire to serve motives.
Yes, clearly, all politicians lack personal integrity -- and if they had a profit motive they would be full of integrity. </sarcasm>
At every turn, government at all levels seek more and more money rather than taking a hard look at where they are spending it.
Wait, I thought they had no profit motive...
Perhaps North Carolina is upset because local business are closing due to the tax disparity? Amazon sneaks in as an interstate institution, and they know that if residents have to pay tax in addition to shipping, their customers will be more likely to patronize local business. The same places that provide property tax and pay for things like schools. I doubt this has anything to do with "campaign donors and higher pay", which sounds like knee-jerk AM radio conservatism.
The wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead.
How and why is Amazon supposed to be treated differently than say, Walmart?
Walmart seems to be able to handle the tax issue, why is it Amazon can't do the same?
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
Unfortunately, Amazon probably needed to demonstrate how serious they were, or NC might well have called their "bluff," leaving the affiliates out in the cold for much longer, if not permanently. Once some government erects a new law / regulation / tax / bureaucracy / program, it's harder to get rid of than mildew.
In fact, these things really are quite like an aggressive mildew. Do nothing, and they grow, advance, and encroach on your clean space. Work really really diligently and consistently, and you can sometimes beat them back to manageable levels. But get a little lazy once or twice, and boom... they're ba-ack, worse than ever.
If Amazon had merely warned their affiliates, there would be a big "yeah, right" factor on the affiliates' parts, and a big "yeah, right" factor on the legislators' parts. The tax might well pass, and Amazon's negotiating position would become that much weaker. Amazon *needs* big numbers of pissed off people -- really pissed off right this minute people -- to beat this thing. People who are merely imagining being pissed off in some potential future just don't act. Legislators need to see a thunderstorm, not a possible drizzle advisory; a storm of phone calls, not a flurry of tweets and a new Facebook group called "stop the tax."
With private economies shrinking but public spending expanding most everywhere, we are going to see more egregious tax grab strategies popping up more and more often over the coming months and years. The ones who don't get their pockets picked clean will be the ones who get brutal, or have someone get brutal on their behalf as Amazon did in this case.
Pi Ran Out
Once some government erects a new law / regulation / tax / bureaucracy / program, it's harder to get rid of than mildew.
It's true, I have often found it takes a lot more Lysol to kill a legislator than it does to kill mildew.
When you walk into a restaurant, you walk into a PRIVATE establishment. Claiming public health concerns to regulate behavior on private property is at the very least disingenuous.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
Walmart has a physical operation in NC and the ability to collect and process taxes. Out of state vendors (Amazon being just one or many, many) does not. Don't forget that this law, if it passes, will impact all out of state eCommerce vendors. Perhaps the large ones will say "we do enough business in NC and will set up a physical presence to process tax" but the many, many smaller entities will just drop this state. That will be painful for them and their customers within the State.
Rich people are eccentric. Poor people are strange. Me, I'd be happy with odd.
Perhaps North Carolina is upset because local business are closing due to the tax disparity?
Chicago infamously addressed an automobile tax disparity by forcing suburban car dealerships to collect City taxes. City dwellers could no longer escape the inordinate tax by buying in the suburbs; Chicago argued that place of residence, not place of purchase, determined the sales tax. Except, that is, for suburban dwellers who might have bought a car in the city. For them, it was the other way around. Now they're trying the same thing with *all* car rentals in the entire 6-county suburban area. (They *might* be driven into the city at some point, don'tcha know.)
Mightn't NC address the tax disparity by competing with the surrounding tax environment, or by using residence-based sources like real-estate taxes to shore up their shortfalls? People often feel it's their right to seek relief from (what they feel are) unfair or inordinate taxes by not purchasing in that jurisdiction. Without such competitive pressure, there is insufficient drive for any kind of fiscal responsibility by governments (though if you know of a better way to incent governments to efficiency, please share; I personally trust neither corporate leaders nor government leaders to innately have my financial best interests at heart). At any rate, if jurisdictions can start taxing beyond their boundaries left and right, we might as well just turn governing over to Bernie Madoff or Enron or Halliburton. At least then we'll know there's going to be a-screwin' coming our way.
Pi Ran Out
There would be no point to not selling to NC residents. North Carolina is claiming that the independent affiliates count as a 'physical presence' for Amazon, meaning Amazon has to pay sales tax on anything sold in the state. Amazon can eliminate that qualifier by eliminating its contracts with North Carolina businesses, freeing Amazon to continue to do business tax-free in the state. Refusing to do business entirely would only hurt Amazon more without particularly adding much more pressure.
Long? What do you mean the signature at the bottom of every comment I post on Slashdot is too lo
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Right! Public health inspectors have no place coming into PRIVATE restaurants! Just think of how much money the poor restaurateurs could save if they didn't have to put up with those intrusive inspections, citing them for things like 'chefs not washing hands' or 'seafood kept in unrefrigerated piles on a dirt floor next to the catbox.'
Long? What do you mean the signature at the bottom of every comment I post on Slashdot is too lo
Granting all your arguments for the sake of argument, what would be the limiting factor against this annexing power? In my experience, the further the power center gets away from the individual, the less responsive it is to individual needs. It may be that this is a good thing in your view... that the individual should subordinate his or her individual needs to the needs of society at large. In the current state of affairs, the limiting factor is the inconvenience of moving; if a city's fiscal penalties to its residents (compared to surrounding jurisdictions) aren't sufficiently harmful to overcome the costs of uprooting & moving, then the residents will endure them. If they are, then the city will have to take notice and take corresponding steps to lure residents back. These same factors apply at a lesser scale to the act of making a purchase, e.g. gas, cigarettes, automobiles and such.
I tend to think that cities often create the conditions that lead to crappy schools, higher unemployment, and higher unit taxes despite a higher population density (and thus presumably better economy of scale). I guess I'm wondering why you think it is that a large city as a system unto itself couldn't blow the doors off a nearby suburb (also as a system unto itself). As a city grows, if it's governed as you envision, shouldn't people want to move into it rather than away from it?
Pi Ran Out
"It's true, I have often found it takes a lot more Lysol to kill a legislator than it does to kill mildew."
I think this warrants extensive testing just to be sure.
Usually, it comes down to the question of who has more guns.