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Successful Test of Superconducting Plasma Rocket Engine

xp65 writes to mention that Ad Astra has successfully tested their VX-200 plasma engine at full power in superconducting conditions, the first time such an engine has been tested at those power levels. "The VX-200 engine is the first flight-like prototype of the VASIMR® propulsion system, a new high-power plasma-based rocket, initially studied by NASA and now being developed privately by Ad Astra. VASIMR® engines could enable space operations far more efficiently than today's chemical rockets and ultimately they could also greatly speed up robotic and human transit times for missions to Mars and beyond."

32 of 168 comments (clear)

  1. What terrible timing. by grub · · Score: 5, Funny


    Damn, this is terrible timing. On the weekend my lady and I were thinking that a new pet name for my penis was due. The current "Superfluidic Particle Accelerating Colossus" was getting a bit stale.

    The better half suggested "Superconducting Plasma Rocket Engine". But now that that name is taken we'll have to use our second favourite choice: "Hank".

    .

    --
    Trolling is a art,
    1. Re:What terrible timing. by CubicleView · · Score: 3, Funny

      You should call it a WMD.

      Since your lady probably has trouble finding it....

    2. Re:What terrible timing. by dbcad7 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Too much to remember .. why not just use your slashdot user name ?

      --
      waiting for ad.doubleclick.net
  2. High Thrust, High Specific Impulse (Isp) by AKAImBatman · · Score: 5, Interesting

    For those of you who are unclear on why the VASMIR system is so cool, allow me to give you a brief bit of background. Practically every propulsion method developed to date falls into one of two categories:

    1. High thrust, low efficiency
    2. Low thrust, high efficiency

    Generally how it works is that the more power you get out of engines, the less energy you extract from the fuel. This is the case of chemical fuels like Liquid Hydrogen/Oxygen or Kerosine. These fuels provide the massive amounts of thrust necessary to get off the ground, but they burn through their fuel very quickly. Interestingly, LHOx is more efficient than Kerosine, but it's also harder to get as much raw thrust out of it. That's one of the reasons why Kerosine was the heavy lifter during the space race with the LHOx engines reserved for in-space stages.

    On the other side of the coin, you have engines like Ion propulsion. These engines are able to inject incredible amounts of energy into tiny amounts of fuel, thus making them extremely fuel efficient. The only problem is that the amount of thrust is very low. Most of the ion engines that have operated to date produce thrust that matches the weight of a sheet of paper. Definitely not enough for liftoff, but perfect for extended missions in space where constant low thrust provides more velocity over time than the chemical engines which fire once, then coast the rest of the way.

    The problem with both types of engines is that neither one gets spacecraft to their destination all that fast. Chemical rockets have the thrust to do it, but you couldn't feasibly build a chemical rocket with enough fuel to get you to another planet in a reasonable amount of time. A nuclear pulse propulsion craft could feasibly get fairly close, but it would just have more power in the intial thrust rather than providing a constant, high power thrust. (Obviously these have been discounted over the difficulties of building a large enough craft without using a nuclear ground launch. Nuclear ground launches are a no-no under current test-ban treaties.)

    This is where VASMIR comes in. These engines are incredibly efficient. The specific impulse (measurement of efficiency) is between 3,000-30,000 seconds depending on the configuration and current thrust levels of the engine. This compares favorably with the ~450 seconds of shuttle engines and 3,000-10,000 seconds of Ion thrusters. Meanwhile, the thrust of Ion engines ranges from 90-3,000 mN while the thrust of VASMIR is expected to be ~5000 mN of thrust when tested at 200 kW of power.

    What this means is that we may be able to build spacecraft where a trip from LEO to the moon is a daily affair and a trip from LEO to Mars takes only a few months (or less!) vs. the current flight time of nearly a year. The better these engines get (and the more we can put on a craft), the faster those flight times will get!

    1. Re:High Thrust, High Specific Impulse (Isp) by Xaedalus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      THIS is why we need to go to the Moon and Mars and beyond... it is only through pushing through the boundaries to the unknown that we advance as a species. Otherwise, all we do is sit in self-induced stagnation endlessly trying to perfect ourselves.

      --
      Here's to hot beer, cold women, and Glaswegian kisses for all.
    2. Re:High Thrust, High Specific Impulse (Isp) by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 5, Insightful

      THIS is why we need to go to the Moon and Mars and beyond... it is only through pushing through the boundaries to the unknown that we advance as a species. Otherwise, all we do is sit in self-induced stagnation endlessly trying to perfect ourselves.

      I agree, but this is going to be the tough sell over the next 30 years. I know where I work I am drowning a deluge of people who never crack a book, have no curiosity beyond what will happen on the next American Idol, and have no deep thoughts about anything.

      Vonnegut (and many others) seem to be right and we seem to be devolving. Endeavours in space and science is how we move forward, but there are less and less people that are interested in anything beyond where they are going to eat tonight. Fighting shallow mindedness is the REAL struggle.

    3. Re:High Thrust, High Specific Impulse (Isp) by AKAImBatman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Gas Core Nuclear Thermal Rockets are still science fiction. No one has yet built the necessary components, and there is a great deal of argument over whether or not "nuclear light bulbs" are even possible.

      I'd love to see a 3,000 - 5,000 second NTR engine as well, but it would still be better suited for liftoff. For interplanetary travel, you simply can't beat the efficiency numbers of VASMIR. They start at the theoretical limits of NTRs!

      these numbers are from the 60s

      I don't have the reference in front of me, but I seem to recall that solid core NTRs were brought as high as 1200 seconds. On paper, anyway. No one has built them since the 80's timberwind project.

    4. Re:High Thrust, High Specific Impulse (Isp) by goffster · · Score: 3, Interesting

      " ... but you couldn't feasibly build a chemical rocket with enough fuel ... "

      In fact, you can't do it all. There is a theoretical maximum amount of chemical energy/mass
      you can achieve. Even when you are able to use this energy at 100% efficiency, the amount of energy required
      to move the fuel itself reaches a point at which its payload can go no faster.

    5. Re:High Thrust, High Specific Impulse (Isp) by ljw1004 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Your post says that VASIMR combines high-thrust with high-specific-impulse.

      But the wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VASIMR_Engine says instead that VASIMR operates in either high-thrust low-specific impulse mode, or in low-thrust high-specific-impulse mode.

      Have I understood this correctly? Which is right?

    6. Re:High Thrust, High Specific Impulse (Isp) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I so agree with you, one thing to add, right now it's more important to "sound" like you know what your talking about than actually knowing. I also wonder if it isn't because of affluence that most of society in G8 countries tend to be complacent or afraid to loose what they have.

    7. Re:High Thrust, High Specific Impulse (Isp) by Bat+Country · · Score: 4, Funny

      I know where I work I am drowning a deluge of people who never crack a book...

      I commend you for your efforts in stamping out illiteracy.

      --
      The land shall stone them with the bread of his son.
    8. Re:High Thrust, High Specific Impulse (Isp) by ardor · · Score: 5, Insightful
      This fight has always been happening. Just imagine how hard it was for intellectuals in the Middle Ages to even get a book, let alone exchange information. I don't think we are *devolving*. Instead, I think three things are happening:
      1. Thanks to telecommunication, we get a LOT more information. In the past, you didn't really notice the masses of ignorant people, now you do. (This also applies to things like "so many more catastrophes/crimes/etc. nowadays" - they have always been around, we just did not know about them)
      2. The amount of ignorant people increases faster than the amount of people interested in science - but the ratio between the two is constant. Today, you have zillions of reality shows, nonsensical talkshows and "news", religious nutcases and politicians spewing their garbage in the networks etc. But on the other hand we have *many* more universities, scientists, labs, research facilities, libraries, advancements than in the past.
      3. Today's research focuses - has to focus - on incremental improvements. Huge, mindblowing breakthroughs are becoming increasingly rare. However, this does not mean research as a whole is stagnating, its just our perception that cannot really grasp the overall impact of all these myriads of small improvements.

      Don't get me wrong, fighting shallow mindedness is TOTALLY necessary, but it has always been. There has been no "golden age" where everybody was open-minded and well-educated.

      --
      This sig does not contain any SCO code.
    9. Re:High Thrust, High Specific Impulse (Isp) by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 4, Interesting

      THIS is why we need to go to the Moon and Mars and beyond... it is only through pushing through the boundaries to the unknown that we advance as a species.

      A good way to explain it to the technophobes is this with the Turner Thesis, which stated that what made America exceptional was its frontier. And in a lot ways, Turner was right. Continental expansionism (the so-called Manifest Destiny) was the impetus for much technological innovation in North America, including the telegraph, the steam locomotive, etc.

    10. Re:High Thrust, High Specific Impulse (Isp) by JumperCables233 · · Score: 3, Funny

      I have to say that I reject your theory that ion engines are low-thrust, since I happen to know for a fact that a single-man spacecraft with a Twin Ion Engine is capable of 1,200 km/hr and an acceleration of 4,100 G. Please refer to: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TIE/ln_starfighter Thank you for your time. Let's keep things grounded in reality, people!

    11. Re:High Thrust, High Specific Impulse (Isp) by theIsovist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I so agree with you, one thing to add, right now it's more important to "sound" like you know what your talking about than actually knowing.

      [citation needed]...

    12. Re:High Thrust, High Specific Impulse (Isp) by cbhacking · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Both are, to some extent. You (and Wikipedia) are correct in that VASIMR engines can change between high-power and high-efficiency (think of it like changing gears in your car; you're much more fuel-efficient cruising in top gear, but can accelerate much harder in low gear). Indeed, that's a fundamental characteristic of the engine, and explains the first two letters of the acronym (VAriable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket). However, the OP is also correct in that VASIMIR engines are extremely efficient in general. Part of this is due to their variability - as with a car, the efficient way to use a rocket is to increase its specific impulse (gear ratio/fuel efficiency) as its speed increases (currently no other rocket engine that I know of can do this). On the other hand, look at the high-end of that specific impulse - it's several times what our best Ion drives produce, while also putting out substantially more thrust. Theoretically, VASIMR engines are strictly superior (in terms of thrust and SIP, at least) to ion engines.

      Of course, even at maximum thrust, current VASIMR drive designs produce *maybe* enough thrust to lift about .5 kilos (call it 1 lb) into space from the surface. Since the engine itself masses far more than that, you'll still need something with really high thrust to get it into space in the first place. Based on that, chemical engines will probably be around for a while, unless we can whip up a space elevator while we're at it. Theoretically you could run more power through a VASIMR and get more thrust, but I suspect the practical limit on doing so is far less than would be required for liftoff (if you could even get it to operate in an atmosphere). Even without that, though, it would be an incredible boon to intrasystem travel, or for station-keeping engines on satellites.

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    13. Re:High Thrust, High Specific Impulse (Isp) by jeff4747 · · Score: 2, Informative

      As always, XKCD has a comic on the subject: http://xkcd.com/603/

  3. Superconducting Plasma Rocket Engine? by MBGMorden · · Score: 3, Funny

    Superconducting Plasma Rocket Engine?

    Sounds like it oughta be able to make at least Warp 3.

    --
    "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    1. Re:Superconducting Plasma Rocket Engine? by Spy+Handler · · Score: 2, Funny

      Nah, more like impulse engine... warp speed would have to involve some kind of space-time bending.

      "Full impulse power."

      "No sir! You have Genesis! You can have whatever..."

      "Full impulse power! Damn you!"

  4. Re:Total power by AKAImBatman · · Score: 5, Informative

    For comparison, your car needs about 20 kW of power to maintain cruising speed on the interstate. 200 kW of power would be akin to running a 300 horsepower engine at its peak power output. With the way cars are designed, that doesn't happen much with the possible exception of expensive sports cars and pickups hauling a heavy load.

    If we take the case of the sports car, we find that it's enough energy to slam you against your seat and hold you there while you do 0-60 in 3 seconds. (Hey look, ma! Artificial gravity!) In the case of a pickup pulling a heavy load, it's enough to accelerate reasonably while dragging a trailer full of spools of heavy steel cabling.

    The difference between your car and the spaceship is that the spaceship will be powered by some sort of long-term fuel supply. e.g. A nuclear reactor. Which means that the spaceship will be able to continue accelerating for millions of miles while your car would have run out of gas after the first few hundred miles.

    Since acceleration is cumulative, being able to continuously accelerate like that means that distances between planets become a lot smaller on one "tank of gas" as it were. Add more engines for greater thrust and redundancy, and you have a souped-up hot-rod of a ship that can take you interplanetary distances in record time.

    Hmm... I'm sure someone is about to chide me for some horribly sloppy analogies, but look on the bright side. It's got cars in it! And hopefully it will make the energy budget a bit more understandable. ;-)

  5. Re:Power to Power the VASMIR? by AKAImBatman · · Score: 2, Informative

    For 200 kW per engine, we're thinking nukes.

  6. Re:Total power by AKAImBatman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So it seems like this will be a great way to power a spacecraft that's already in orbit

    Correct. While it's theoretically possible to use engines like this as part of a liftoff stack (assuming enough engines, low enough weight per engine, and a high enough power budget), it's not really practical to consider such a concept at this time. For the short term at least, LEO access will remain the purview of chemical rockets.

  7. Checklist by Bakkster · · Score: 3, Funny

    Superconducting: check
    Plasma: check
    Rocket: check
    Linux:

    Three for four isn't bad.

    --
    Write your representatives! Repeal the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!
  8. Let's not get out of hand about Mars by mathimus1863 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Just a comment before people get out of hand talking about how quickly we can go to Mars with better thrusters... anyone who's taken a class on Orbital mechanics should know that you can't just decide to go to Mars whenever you like. Part of the problem with trips to Mars is the distance, but also the timing. It would be extremely difficult to do an orbital transfer from Earth to Mars while they are on opposite sides of the sun. It would add months, if not years, to your trip, and the fuel requirements certainly wouldn't be aided by it. Unfortunately, because the an Earth-year and Mars-year are so close (like 1 mars-year is 1.8 earth years...?) it takes a while for the orbits to sync up again once they get out of sync (isn't this known as beat frequency in the audio world?).

    Now don't quote me on this b/c it's been a while since I took orbital mechanics... but I seem to remember the "optimal" window for an Earth-to-Mars transfer opening up once every 2.5 years, it would take 8 months to travel there, 90-98% of your ship's mass would have to be fuel, and then you'd have to wait 1.5 more years for the "optimal" Mars-to-Earth orbital transfer window. In other words, doing a round-trip flight to Mars is no trivial matter.

    Even with a more efficient fuel, perhaps you can stretch those windows, but you're not going to find an astronaut who is willing to leave now for a 1.5-year-commute to Mars, instead of waiting a year and doing an 8-month-commute. Even if those times are shrunk by a factor of 2 with a more efficient fuel, it's always going to be a huge operation.

    1. Re:Let's not get out of hand about Mars by AKAImBatman · · Score: 2, Informative

      You're partially correct. But only partially. While you generally need to wait for proper alignment to make your journey, the length of the journey is still dependent on how fast you go. Chemical rockets are so slow that we need to begin the orbital transfer ~260 days before the expected orbital intersection with Mars. With more acceleration, the ship could leave later and still make the rendezvous.

      Ok, that's horribly simplified. But I simply don't have the time to look up and explain the myriad of orbital transfers available. Suffice it to say, a little bit of extra speed won't help much at all. A lot of extra speed will open up many more options.

      Or in other words, how fast you get somewhere depends on how much energy you want to waste to accomplish that goal.

    2. Re:Let's not get out of hand about Mars by vlm · · Score: 5, Informative

      You're mixing about a zillion different orbits into one recollection.

      If you've got enough fuel, just turn and burn man... simple. Of course that takes a heck of a lot of fuel, like your idea of 98% mass fraction of fuel.

      A Hohmann TO is the simplest imaginable transfer to design and is pretty quick too. Draw an ellipse that touches both orbits...

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hohmann_transfer_orbit

      A Bi-elliptic is way slow, but if you're making a major/huge change to your orbital parameters it takes less fuel. Enter a giant orbit way the heck out there, then on the return pass enter your new orbit. Handy for inclination changes too.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bi-elliptic_transfer

      And if you literally have decades of spare time there is the famous "ITN" which takes practically no fuel and takes practically forever, which works by wandering around the various eddies of the Lagrange points or something very vaguely like that.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interplanetary_Transport_Network

      As for your claim of 98% mass fraction, check out the math on

      http://www.iki.rssi.ru/mirrors/stern/stargaze/Smars2.htm

      "showing we need add just 2.966 km/s, a shade short of 3 km/s or 10% of the orbital velocity."

      and then when you get there you need another 2.5 km/s to match mars orbit, although you can play various gravitational slingshot games to help that out...

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    3. Re:Let's not get out of hand about Mars by Overzeetop · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's been a couple decades for me, too, though my masters class in space vehicle guidance and nav had the final as a mars shot (NASA Admin Griffin was the professor; yes he has always been hyped on mars!)

      Anyway, while the sibling posts are correct, there are orders of magnitude between this technology and the reality of meaningfully shifting the duration of a Mars shot. There are certain "safe" transfer orbits which get the crew back to earth automatically (you can intercept mars, and if you miss injection your orbit will return you to earth orbit, tangent to earth's orbit, and at the same time that earth is in that location).

      Even if you go with a non-safe orbit (non-tangential initial delta V) which doesn't intercept Mars at perihelion (Hohmann transfer of you leave earth tangential to the orbit), you've got to have some significant acceleration.

      Now, this thing is going to need 200kW per engine to apply 5N worth of thrust. To get this into perspective, do you remember those old Estes engines you played with as a kid? The small ones produce about 5N of thrust. Now, strap one of those to a 200kW generator. The Topaz generator, flown by the Soviets produced 5kW of power and weighed over a ton. Now, that's the only thing I could find on google in 2 seconds, so we'll assume you can get an order of magnitude better performance today - strap that Estes C6 engine to a 5,000lb nuclear reactor. You're not exactly going to be racing the new Veyron in terms of acceleration. (okay, the Veyron won't do well in space...point taken).

      If you do the math, I'm thinking you'll be getting 0.0001m/s/s acceleration if you count the generator/engine combo as 50% of the spaceship mass. In 9 months, you'll be traveling at 2.3km/s faster than when you left earth orbit, which was probably in the 6-7km/s range. At that point you can turn around and start decelerating to you reach Mars at a desirable rate.

      None of which really matters (since the orbital durations may be highly suspect), except to say that you're not going to be getting any massive delta-V out of this thing on a short term basis.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  9. Re:200 kW by confused+one · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yes, but it should scale nicely to 100's of MW.

  10. Summary Wrong by confused+one · · Score: 2, Informative

    This was a full power test of the superconducting magnet and first stage only. The first stage is a 30kW ionization stage. The 170kW RF second stage has not yet been tested. Testing of the combined first and second stage will commence July 14th. From the manufacturer's site: http://www.adastrarocket.com/Release%20020709.pdf

  11. Yiddish by rssrss · · Score: 3, Interesting

    In Yiddish (the Jewish-German creole of Eastern Europe), VASIMR means "woe is me".

    I know, probably o/t.

    --
    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
  12. Only if you're looking for exercise. by jeffb+(2.718) · · Score: 2, Informative

    Biking for an hour at 25MPH costs 1181 kcal, according to this calendar (others suggest it costs even more calories), which translates to 1373 watt-hours. (Your body isn't that efficient at converting fuel to energy.) So let's assume your 250W figure is correct, and your body is about 18% efficient in converting calories to power.

    Biking for an hour at 65MPH (if you could) would burn 18669 calories -- remember, wind resistance goes up as the cube of speed. That works out to -- let's see -- 21712 watt-hours. Assuming the same 18% efficiency (and some active cooling for your legs, not to mention the rest of your body), you'd be putting out 3.95KW to sustain that speed.

    When you look at it that way, spending five times the energy to move a car, with probably five or ten times the frontal surface area and more than ten times the passenger and cargo capacity, starts to sound like not such a bad deal.

  13. power sources - hither and yon by drwho · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It doesn't matter too much how efficient a power source is, as long as the fuel is plentiful. For instance, if you have a REAL LOT of petrochemicals it doesn't really matter how much you have to use to get to mars, etc. BUT more important is how DENSE the energy source is...i.e, how much more of the fuel does it take to move the fuel that is going to be used later on. This gets to be a BIG PROBLEM with chemical fuels, as even at their best they are not very DENSE. Of course, efficiency helps. But say, for a moment, that you have a nice large nuclear power plant on earth...you could probably use all that heat to either directly or indirectly (though electricity) create some high-density chemical fuels...but there's a limit to how much power a chemical fuel can provide. We need NUCLEAR FUEL, be it fission or fusion, or even better ANTIMATTER fuel. While some people claim that nuclear fuel is too dangerous to use on earth, I disagree. But I do think that antimatter is too dangerous to be used anywhere in the vicinity of important and/or massive objects (can't have the earth or space station pummeled by shrapnel in the case of an antimatter explosion, can we? And remember, there's no air friction to slow this shrapnel down). So, the best advice is to use fission, or hopefully fusion once technology gives up on the silly Tokamak idea, to leave earth's gravity well and move far enough out of the plane to be safe, and then use antimatter to the long haul. What, you say antimatter is too expensive? That's only because you've picked the wrong places to manufacture it. Production using solar power in CLOSE SOLAR ORBIT, in a thousand factories, should make antimatter cheap enough. You just have to go fetch it from close-solar orbits, which can be robotically done using the antimatter as fuel itself! The factories themselves can be replicaed using easily available materials from the moon or asteroids, and then replicated in close solar orbit using the vast energy resouces of the sun.

    So to sum up, the problem isn't the amount of energy required, but the location of that energy. Move our energy conversion devices closer to the source, and we'll have plnety of consumable energy, even if it has to go through several intermediate storage mechanisms to become safe and easily accessible.

    And yes, I've said this in other places, over time. I just hope that I get through to someone who is charged with long-term planning for space exploration.