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ESA and NASA Establish a Joint Mars Exploration Initiative

Posted by samzenpus on from the quaid-and-kuato-approved dept.

Matt_dk sends in a Spacefellowship article: "The ESA Director of Science and Robotic Exploration, David Southwood, met NASA's Associate Administrator for Science, Ed Weiler, in Plymouth, UK, to establish a way for a progressive programme for exploration of the Red Planet. The outcome of the bilateral meeting was an agreement to create a Mars Exploration Joint Initiative (MEJI) that will provide a framework for the two agencies to define and implement their scientific, programmatic and technological goals at Mars."

95 comments

  1. I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Can someone just put this into a car analogy for me? I'm not really sure what this MEJI is supposed to do. What is it used for?

    1. Re:I don't get it by tnok85 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Basically, imagine that NASA is an inefficient huge gas guzzler - say, a Hummer.

      Imagine that ESA is a small fleet of more gas efficient but boring compact cars - say, a Saab representing Sweden, a Volvo representing Germany, a Fiat representing Italy... you get the idea. Let's say there's about 11 cars, plus a bicycle from Canada I guess.

      Now, somehow stuff all those cars into the Hummer, put a rocket on it, and launch it to Mars.

    2. Re:I don't get it by masshuu · · Score: 1

      Germany is a tanker truck full of good beer, cause you know, we want to offer the aliens something good when we arrive.

      --
      O.o
    3. Re:I don't get it by ocularDeathRay · · Score: 1, Funny

      in Soviet Russia, Mars visits you!

      --
      Obama is a twitter sock puppet
    4. Re:I don't get it by master5o1 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Hey, we all know that European cars are better than American cars. Just look at Audi versus Ford.

      --
      signature is pants
    5. Re:I don't get it by sanyacid · · Score: 3, Informative

      FYI Volvo is also Swedish ;)

    6. Re:I don't get it by tnok85 · · Score: 2, Informative

      You wouldn't think I'd make that error when posting, since I drive a Volvo, but yeah... realized it a little too late. Was intending to put down Volkswagen.

    7. Re:I don't get it by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      Basically, imagine that NASA is an inefficient huge gas guzzler - say, a Hummer. Imagine that ESA is a small fleet of more gas efficient but boring compact cars

      I see your hummer and raise you the Daimler Unimog Brabus Black Edition. We, too, know how to build absolutely ludicrous gas guzzlers.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    8. Re:I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, it depends on your definition of "better". Admittedly, Audi's, and some other European cars, are better than Ford's in virtually every way save one. European cars are notorious for falling apart. They all score near the bottom on initial and long-term quality surveys. And there are mountains of anecdotal evidence attesting to this.

      To sum it up, two people arguing over whether European cars are better or American cars are better is like watching two obese people calling each other fat. It's just funny or sad.

      Here, if you want a good car, buy Japanese.

    9. Re:I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now imagine you want to pull one of those big travel trailers from New York to San Francisco.

      Which do you choose; a Saab, a Volvo, a Fiat or a Hummer.

    10. Re:I don't get it by ollum · · Score: 1

      When did you look at an Audi the last time? I'd say they make pretty great cars nowadays... Then again, I'm driving one, so I might be biased :)

    11. Re:I don't get it by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      "Volvo representing Germany"

      Why is Germany to be represented with Ford-owned Swedish car manufacturer? :-)

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    12. Re:I don't get it by JerryP · · Score: 1

      ... a Volvo representing Germany ...

      Nitpick:

      Volvo is swedish as well. German makers are Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Opel, Porsche, Volkswagen.

    13. Re:I don't get it by abshack · · Score: 1

      Basically, imagine that NASA is an inefficient huge gas guzzler - say, a Hummer. Imagine that ESA is a small fleet of more gas efficient but boring compact cars - say, a Saab representing Sweden, a Volvo representing Germany, a Fiat representing Italy... you get the idea. Let's say there's about 11 cars, plus a bicycle from Canada I guess. Now, somehow stuff all those cars into the Hummer, put a rocket on it, and launch it to Mars.

      You forgot to mention that Canada is also sending the cool robotic arm that drives the rocket.

    14. Re:I don't get it by master5o1 · · Score: 1

      I like both Toyota and Audi. My mum's Audi was rear-ended by some girl who was txting at the wheel. Apparently her car hhad some damage, mum's Audi (A3 Hatch) looked completely unscathed.

      Note: I had to write this as "My mum's Audi was..." as opposed to "My mum was rear-ended..."

      --
      signature is pants
    15. Re:I don't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd say it's an opportunity for the ESA make sure everyone in Europe gets a chance to weigh in on any decision, make sure that Bordeaux is serverd on the flight to Mars, to say NASA isn't "Green" enough and make sure we use some as-yet-undeveloped Euro-Hemp Rocket Fuel, and to generally fuck up the entire endeavor.

  2. What happened? by acehole · · Score: 1

    So how'd we go from "zomg! we've got 8 years to get to the moon. Go Go Go!" 40 years ago but today we're just launching probes and taking walks in space outside of an orbiting station occasionally. What have we been doing? Where would we have been if we'd kept up the pace from the moon landing?

    --
    Be you Admins? nay, we are but lusers!
    1. Re:What happened? by Gravedigger3 · · Score: 1

      Out of money and probably still no further than the moon.

      --
      All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be. -PF
    2. Re:What happened? by bertoelcon · · Score: 1

      Living in space with hover cars, like everyone assumed would be here by now in the '50s

      --
      Anything can be found funny, from a certain point of view.
    3. Re:What happened? by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Where would we have been if we'd kept up the pace from the moon landing?

      All over the Solar System, probably. Believe me, the engineers were planning it. (My Dad was one of them, so I have this on pretty good authority.) But once we Beat! The! Commies! To! The! Moon!, the national will disappeared, and with it the money.

      So the answer to your first question is pretty much financial. Look at how much we spent on just Apollo, as a percentage of GDP, compared to how much we spend on all of NASA now ... and consider that the space budget has been a convenient target for Senators and Representatives who want to be able to tell their constituents that they're reining in wasteful government spending for, well, forty years or so. It's bullshit, of course, since NASA spending has never, even at the most expensive point in the Apollo program, been more than a tiny fraction of what we spend on many other programs with a far lower rate of return. But it's bullshit that plays well to ignorant audiences.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    4. Re:What happened? by QuantumG · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The last time Congress asked NASA how much it would cost to go to Mars they came up with a proposal that involved building giant ships in LEO to travel 2.5 years to Mars, stay there a month, and come back. The price tag was trillions. When asked why they should pay so much, NASA basically said "I dunno, it was your idea" and that was that. Lately, though, they've been talking about much more sensible things. 6 months there, 500 days on the ground, 6 months back. The purpose of the mission being to do all the nifty science those little robots have been doing, only at 1000x the scale. Not to mention doing some biological search that isn't retarded.. finding life in the most desolate places on Earth is hard and robots can't do it, and when we send robots to Mars to look for life we ignore any results that say they have found it (all the instruments on Viking said they had found life).

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    5. Re:What happened? by ocularDeathRay · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The exciting difference in this case is that more than just the USA will be working towards the goal. The apollo missions were ALL about the space race with USSR... at the time that competition was the only thing that would get it done. Now if you consider the fact that we have no TRUE enemies among the countries capable of a useful mars mission, you will realize that COOPERATION is what will drive the next great exploration of the solar system.

      so you are right to say we would have been out of money if things had continued as they were. Now we have the opportunity to do something really amazing. The price of the technology to do a particular task is down. The size of the tax base this will be spread across is up (if you consider the ESA and possibly other international involvement). I don't know if this is the attempt that will put us on mars, but I do believe I will see it in my lifetime. I also believe that these things bring a society together. I have heard the stories of my parents generation gathering around their televisions to watch the moon landing, perhaps I can tell my children about everyone pulling out their smart phone and watching the mars landing. I hope so. We do very little that is positive for the future generations, this is one way to change that.

      --
      Obama is a twitter sock puppet
    6. Re:What happened? by nacturation · · Score: 1

      40 years ago they had a lot of joint initiatives, if ya know what I mean.

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    7. Re:What happened? by icebike · · Score: 2, Interesting

      shooting up probes from the moon?

      Basically, the cost benefit was not there. We had to finish the Vietnam war. Then we had to satisfy all of the social programs. Then we had another two or three wars, interspersed with social programs.

      Social programs waste the first derivative of Government spending. No good or service is produced. Mouths are simply fed. (Some will surely suggest this is good in and of itself).
      But jobs are eventually created, and money trickles up from the poor to the grocer, the baker, and the crack dealer on the corner.

      Wars waste the final derivative of Government spending. Stuff is destroyed. Even lives.
      But new stuff is purchased, and jobs are created, and spending eventually trickles down.

      Things like building highways, bridges, moon bases yield huge first derivatives, and the second derivatives are equally huge, and the follow on derivatives are even huger and last forever. We still drive Ike's highways.

      But its hard to convince Joe Sixpack of this, because he has visions of rockets filled with 100 dollar bills launching into space and spewing money all over the place. He can't be convinced that all the money is spent right here on earth in his town.

      There will always be the cry that we can't waste another nickel in space while some kid somewhere has holes in his shoes. Won't somebody PLEASE think of the children!.

      And if we ever do manage to accomplish anything in space, it is used to mock all other failings of human civilization. We can send a man to the moon, but we can't get the crack dealer off the corner.

      So you see, had we actually persisted we would have an abandoned moon base by now, because we could no longer afford to support it with wars going on and little Freddy down the street having holes in his shoes, and all.

      This is my optimistic outlook. After a few drinks I take on a rather darker opinion.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    8. Re:What happened? by icebike · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In the meantime, we spent those trillions chasing the Taliban over hill and dale, and propping up ponzie schemes of banks.

      But thank god it wasn't wasted!

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    9. Re:What happened? by diewlasing · · Score: 1

      I see your anger and I agree. However, I don't believe the space program, particularly Mars exploration is bullshit that won't play to "ignorant audiences". Look how excited the nation got after the Apollo, Gemini and other projects. And I don't think people back then were much more enlightened than they are now.

      Yes, I know we were competing with the Soviets and were trying to one-up them, but national humiliation can't be the only motivation, can it? There just needs to be a new national motivation. I know, easier said than done, but still doable, I beleive

    10. Re:What happened? by QuantumG · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think a better question to ask is what the proponents of that public spending project did to convince Congress it was worth the money, or how they got Congress to keep paying the money long after it should have been canceled, and asking if you would like the proponents of your public spending project to do the same. If not, then why sit around wondering how it is that your rivals get more funding?

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    11. Re:What happened? by Amiga+Trombone · · Score: 3, Funny

      Now if you consider the fact that we have no TRUE enemies among the countries capable of a useful mars mission, you will realize that COOPERATION is what will drive the next great exploration of the solar system.

      I might find that a little more credible if that wasn't the same song and dance we heard when we got sold the ISS as an alternative to exploring space autonomously. So far, cooperation has done for space exploration what icebergs did for the Titanic.

    12. Re:What happened? by Herve5 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Contrary to what Amiga Trombone suggests below, I for one was part of the Cassini-Huygens mission to Saturn and Titan (which was an agreement NASA/ESA, Esa providing the Huygens probe), and my impression was *definitely* that the association was extremely beneficial, not only to share costs, but to respect the schedule.
      In this kind of NASA/ESA association, none of the two agencies would dare being the first one announcing a delay, so everyone worked like mad.

      And while at the present time there seems to be a lot of fuss on the actual details of the Mars mission(s), I'm sure that once actually signed the same will happen. OK Cassini/Huygens was years ago (its development at least*), but mentalities have not evolved here, and I just cant' see any european announcing "I had you investing 500 M$ on that mission, but now I back off" -nor the contrary.

      Maybe (to Amiga) the different evolution of the ISS was due to too large a range of cooperating countries and entities. for Cassini/H it was just two, resulting in exactly two teams cooperating. Which I hope is what'll happen on Mars.

      .
      (*)and now don't start calling me a fossil ;-)

      --
      Herve S.
    13. Re:What happened? by HonIsCool · · Score: 1

      Well, sorry to be a party pooper, and it would indeed have been great if the drive from Apollo could have continued, but I think we have to consider a likely outcome of even just continuing the moon landings would have been a fatal accident. There were serious failings on pretty much all Apollo moon flights, the worst being Apollo 13 of course.

      Maybe the really amazing thing NASA did was not just land a man on the moon, but the "returning him safely to earth" - there was no death in space after all.

      But imagine there would have been...What would have happened with that national will power to go into space? Consider the reaction to the Columbia incident. I imagine having dead astronauts floating about in space would seriously have changed people's attitude towards space flight...

      Maybe I'm just being negative...

      --
      "Give me six lines of C++ code written by the most competent programmer, and I will find enough in there to hang him."
    14. Re:What happened? by Hurricane78 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well, I think this graphic explains it very well.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    15. Re:What happened? by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Now if you consider the fact that we have no TRUE enemies among the countries capable of a useful mars mission, you will realize that COOPERATION is what will drive the next great exploration of the solar system.

      Yeah, because one global UN space program would get sooo much done. One of the biggest problems with doing something unique is estimating efficiency. How much "should" it cost to send a probe to Neptune nad do X? Who knows, but if you have multiple space agencys doing their own things sooner or later someone will ask "Hey, why are those guys spening half the money and get twice the results?"

      You don't have to be a space program to experience this, how often on slashdot haven't we heard of the IT wiz keeping everything together with bits of string and duct tape, yet noone recognizes how damn good an employee they really have because their job is unique. At least not until he resigns or gets fired and they get a baseline to compare to.

      I'm not really talking about competition in that sense, take for example the health care system where different countries aren't in competition but they get benchmarked and compared against each other. Once you put everyone in the same organization, things align with corporate policy, company culture and the result is often mediocre but noone really want to call it.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    16. Re:What happened? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What?! We've got Roswell UFOs! All you other bastards got jack shit!

    17. Re:What happened? by khallow · · Score: 1

      How does COOPERATION "drive" anything? As I said before, I think competition is the best form of cooperation. There the drive to do something is readily apparent. If you don't do it, somebody else will. But in the case where everyone "cooperates" on one or a few projects, then there's no incentive to work harder or get things done because you won't be shown up or embarrassed by some other party completing the task ahead of you.

    18. Re:What happened? by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      Given that three astronauts died when Apollo 1 caught fire even on the ground, I'm not sure that more deaths back then would have stopped things.

      Challenger and especially Columbia were much later - when the national desire to go into space had already diminished, and I'd argue that the lack of desire was the cause of the reaction to these deaths, not the other way round.

    19. Re:What happened? by khallow · · Score: 1

      Contrary to what Amiga Trombone suggests below, I for one was part of the Cassini-Huygens mission to Saturn and Titan (which was an agreement NASA/ESA, Esa providing the Huygens probe), and my impression was *definitely* that the association was extremely beneficial, not only to share costs, but to respect the schedule. In this kind of NASA/ESA association, none of the two agencies would dare being the first one announcing a delay, so everyone worked like mad.

      So how do you get missions like Cassini and not like the ISS?

    20. Re:What happened? by HonIsCool · · Score: 1

      Completely different! Although the Apollo 1 fire did cause some public disheartenment, this happened on the ground, and in the public's mind that's completely different to even an accident during launch or re-entry. Several Apollo astronauts died in plane crashes but see how much that registered with the public. A death in space would have been completely different, so I strongly believe!

      --
      "Give me six lines of C++ code written by the most competent programmer, and I will find enough in there to hang him."
    21. Re:What happened? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How does COOPERATION "drive" anything?

      Simple, sometimes cooperation either enables things to be done easier, or even allows the accomplishment of things that wouldn't otherwise be possible (e.g. for practical limitations like lack of resources).

      There the drive to do something is readily apparent. If you don't do it, somebody else will. But in the case where everyone "cooperates" on one or a few projects, then there's no incentive to work harder or get things done because you won't be shown up or embarrassed by some other party completing the task ahead of you.

      In some cases this is true, in others it is not. For over two hundered years rural North Americains would commonly hold barn raisings and similar social gatherings to accomplish large projects. Now each farmer and their families could build a barn seperately, but it would take much longer than the one-to-two days. Therefore, while technically each farmer could be in competition with each-other to sell what they produced, it became a custom to cooperate because the community would help every farmer.

         

    22. Re:What happened? by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      Maybe because he's worried the answer involves kneepads?

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    23. Re:What happened? by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      So far, cooperation has done for space exploration what icebergs did for the Titanic.

      Made it famous? The Titanic would just be a footnote, a big ocean liner, had it not been for that iceberg. Here's hoping the ISS doesn't become a household name many decades from now for similar reasons!

      But you know, I can't wait for the movie starring Leonardo DiCaprio as a stowaway on a Soyuz capsule. I might even sit through the thing for the dramatic scene at the end where his lifeless body slips into the blackness of space, just so I can cheer.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    24. Re:What happened? by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 1

      Try reading to paragraphs further.

    25. Re:What happened? by khallow · · Score: 1

      Simple, sometimes cooperation either enables things to be done easier, or even allows the accomplishment of things that wouldn't otherwise be possible (e.g. for practical limitations like lack of resources).

      Ok, but what's the driver for the cooperators to follow through?

      In some cases this is true, in others it is not. For over two hundered years rural North Americains would commonly hold barn raisings and similar social gatherings to accomplish large projects. Now each farmer and their families could build a barn seperately, but it would take much longer than the one-to-two days. Therefore, while technically each farmer could be in competition with each-other to sell what they produced, it became a custom to cooperate because the community would help every farmer.

      Ok, this is a great example of how cooperation can succeed. But my view is that the barn raisings occurred not because a bunch of people considered cooperation to be a good thing in itself, but because it filled a great common need. That great common need doesn't appear in current cooperative efforts in space.

      As I see it, if there was suddenly a greatly increased interest in space, then virtually every country that has launch capability could muster the funding of a NASA (that is, somewhere around 20 billion USD spent on space). The private sector could throw trillions of dollars at space activities, if they were so inclined. The problem isn't that resources are scarce, but rather that the potential benefit is vastly lower than the cost. Space science in my view runs one to two orders of magnitude more expensive than similar science done on the ground. Space mining might be just an order of magnitude more expensive, but I suspect it's rather two to four orders of magnitude more expensive than the same activity on the ground. Same goes for space based power, space manufacture, and most other tasks.

      No matter how many parties you share the costs between, it's still a losing idea to spend $100 to get $1. Space activities just won't become popular until one or more zeroes are lopped off the costs of doing stuff in space. In my view, that's the fundamental problem with space development. In that light, competition is going to be far more effective than cooperation. It is a proven way to lower costs for economic activities.

    26. Re:What happened? by FleaPlus · · Score: 1

      So how do you get missions like Cassini and not like the ISS?

      I think a big part of the cost problem was that the ISS put the Space Shuttle on its critical path: many of the modules had to be launched on the Shuttle, otherwise they wouldn't be launched at all. This became particularly problematic due to all the cost overruns the Shuttle had. It it had been designed so that (perhaps MIR-size) modules could be launched on whatever launch vehicle was most cost-effective at the time (whether it was a Soyuz, EELV, or Ariane) that would've trimmed costs considerably.

  3. And they're calling the joint venture... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    UAC.

    Prepare for Hell on Earth soon, everyone.

  4. So did they finally decide... by tokyoahead · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...on cm vs inches?

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    no sig
    1. Re:So did they finally decide... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's one standard for science. Let me give you a hint: it ain't fathoms per fortnight.

    2. Re:So did they finally decide... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      acres per workday?

    3. Re:So did they finally decide... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...on cm vs inches?
      Yup, already determined. Americans are 7 inches on average, while EUians average 12.7 cm's.

  5. MEASUREMENTS by masshuu · · Score: 1

    Please tell me that there going to define a standerd first, i don't want my tax dollers to fund a 10 billion bullet that hits mars dead square at 12000 mph, or misses it by 3 million miles.

    "*Boom* uuh we have a problem, was that perigee in Miles or Kilomoters?"

    --
    O.o
    1. Re:MEASUREMENTS by Bored+Grammar+Nazi · · Score: 1

      Before you critizise, please learn to spell. It hurts reading your post.

      there ---> they're
      standerd ---> standard
      dollers ---> dollars
      kilomoters ---> kilometers

    2. Re:MEASUREMENTS by masshuu · · Score: 1

      Those are all French words, i don't speak French. Does France even have a space agency, to lazy to look it up

      --
      O.o
    3. Re:MEASUREMENTS by Truth+is+life · · Score: 1

      First of all, all those words are in ENGLISH. Yes, some of them originated as French or Spanish terms, but so did many English words (that whole being taken over by Normans in 1066 thing, you know). Second, yes France does have its own space agency. It is a founding member of the European Space Agency and (along with about 25 other countries) plays a fairly significant role in space. And looking it up takes a few seconds on Wikipedia, even I'm not that lazy!

    4. Re:MEASUREMENTS by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 5, Funny

      Before you critizise, please learn to spell.

      I think I'm going to leave that line sitting there by itself for a while, in all its lonely glory.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    5. Re:MEASUREMENTS by johnsie · · Score: 1

      Hey smartass... Before you 'critizise', please learn how to spell.

    6. Re:MEASUREMENTS by IrquiM · · Score: 1

      Kilometre!

      --
      This is blinging
    7. Re:MEASUREMENTS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You might want to add:

      i ---> I
      mars ---> Mars

      Ironically, he got "perigee" right, which comes from French and Greek...

  6. All I forsee is confusion. by bmecoli · · Score: 0

    One country uses the imperial system. One country uses metric. What could possibly go wrong?

    1. Re:All I forsee is confusion. by JorDan+Clock · · Score: 4, Informative

      Europe is not a country. It is a continent. Even more so; The US uses Imperial while most of the world uses Metric, not just another country.

    2. Re:All I forsee is confusion. by Patrik_AKA_RedX · · Score: 2, Funny

      The US uses Imperial while most of the world uses Metric

      All the fault of the Stonecutters...

    3. Re:All I forsee is confusion. by captainpanic · · Score: 1

      Yes, but you have to admit that the Europeans act as a single country when it comes to spaceflight. ESA has institutes all over Europe, and they are all cooperating, and have researchers from all over Europe.

      Besides, the British are part of the EU too, and they insist on using the imperial system too... Even worse, their imperial system might differ from the other imperial system(s?). Pity that Napoleon never invaded the UK :D
      (Napoleon is said to have spread the Metric system to other countries)

    4. Re:All I forsee is confusion. by johnsie · · Score: 1

      USA - Many member states connected under a federal government, each state also has local governance EU - Many member states connected under a federal government, each state also has local governance

    5. Re:All I forsee is confusion. by andrewbaldwin · · Score: 4, Informative

      Besides, the British are part of the EU too, and they insist on using the imperial system too...

      This has not been true for science and engineering for many many years.

      Please don't assume that, because the bulk of the population exhibits the natural human characteristics of unwillingness to change when the current system 'works', and are encouraged by the more rabid press (who have such a distrust of 'Johnny Foreigner' and his evil doings) that we don't do real work in metric.

      BTW there was a parliamentary select committee (in 1862) recommending a switch to metric units so this is not a new thing -- we just don't like to rush into things too quickly :-)

      Indeed a lot of our shopping is done in kilogrammes, litres... and legal work uses hectares rather than acres.

      It's just some older measures are retained - partly for nostalgia [beer in pints], partly because pandering to sentiment / distrust of the new is [sadly] seen as a vote winner.

      There is also the psychological issue that comparative measures tend to be slightly bigger in metric units (eg 500g is approximately 10% bigger than 1 lb) so shops selling packaged items had a 'perceived' price hike when switching over to metric - again another resentment easily stoked up as a price increase soundbite (without the compensating increase in delivery being mentioned) is always a winner in newspaper circulation.

      A lot of people (me included) work quite happily with both systems - sometimes even mixing them in creative ways (eg fuel consumption in miles/litre). For practical purposes I use metric - for domestic use then either metric or imperial or both

    6. Re:All I forsee is confusion. by johnsie · · Score: 1

      Only old people in Britain use imperial. Kids have been learning metric as the main system for decades. Pretty much the only imperial measurement that is still used on a regular basis in the UK is the mile.

    7. Re:All I forsee is confusion. by fredrik70 · · Score: 1

      the brits switched to Metric ages ago for all things technical, it is still only used for drink measurements in bars and in the local food market (although they have to display the weight, etc in mettric as well)

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    8. Re:All I forsee is confusion. by fredrik70 · · Score: 1

      There is also the psychological issue that comparative measures tend to be slightly bigger in metric units

      Except, thank God, for the mighty pint!!! mmm, continental lager....

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    9. Re:All I forsee is confusion. by imakemusic · · Score: 1

      And the pint. And sometimes the stone. But yeah, mainly metric.

      --
      Brain surgery - it's not rocket science!
    10. Re:All I forsee is confusion. by frukostflingor · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In fact, NASA already have that problem. Fact is... US switched to the metric system like most other countries. General science are on board, ofcourse, since it the imperial system makes no sense and is therefor not very useful in science, and especially in international reports. The military are easy to convince (SIR! YES, SIR! METRIC IT IS, SIR!) and NASA comes from both military and science, so they are with the program also.

      Not so with the general public, which sometimes caused problems with NASA getting parts made in some stupid imperial sizes instead of real units, so if anything, that's less likely to happen if half the things in the join program is from Europe (which is not a country).

    11. Re:All I forsee is confusion. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Thanks for the info, next time I'll look for the Californian embassy if I need a visum.

    12. Re:All I forsee is confusion. by funkatron · · Score: 1

      Besides, the British are part of the EU too, and they insist on using the imperial system too...

      Only for beer, it means that we get 13% more than the 500ml glasses used elsewhere.

      --
      "Welcome to our world. We are the wasted youth. And we are the future too." Yes, I know these are stupid lyrics.
    13. Re:All I forsee is confusion. by smoker2 · · Score: 1

      Besides, the British are part of the EU too, and they insist on using the imperial system too... Even worse, their imperial system might differ from the other imperial system(s?).

      What other imperial systems ? It's called the "Imperial" system because it was ours, we were the empire that "Imperial" refers to !
      Inches, yards, furlongs, acres, quarts, grains, ounces, rods, chains, pecks, bushels and hundredweight. The US uses some of the names, but it is not the Imperial system.

      Besides which, there is not a factory in the country that measures in anything other than metric units, and hasn't been for a long time. They may provide a handy conversion on the products, but a pint of milk is still sold and marked as 568ml.

      As for Napoleon, how did he get on in Russia ? We have prisons around here built by Napoleonic prisoners of war.

    14. Re:All I forsee is confusion. by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      And feet, for height. :-( We're retarded.

      --
      == Jez ==
      Do you miss Firefox? Try Pale Moon.
    15. Re:All I forsee is confusion. by olau · · Score: 1

      Even more so; The US uses Imperial while most of the world uses Metric, not just another country.

      Actually, it's not just "most of the world". The US appears to be just about the only country not transitioning away from imperial units (cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_customary_units and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_units).

      I looked into it at some time ago for a web site that had product sizes in cm. I had to implement an exception for visitors from just one country. If you're from the US, I've officially hated you since that day.

    16. Re:All I forsee is confusion. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Besides, the British are part of the EU too, and they insist on using the imperial system too...

      Only for beer, it means that we get 13% more than the 500ml glasses used elsewhere.

      ... presumably costing you 13% more as well. Unless British breweries are 13% less profitable than mainland ones.

    17. Re:All I forsee is confusion. by drsquare · · Score: 1

      The EU and Europe are not the same entities. And the ESA is something else entirely.

    18. Re:All I forsee is confusion. by Archimboldo · · Score: 1

      Actually, in this age of computers, I don't see any intrinsic advantage to metric, but I see lots of intrinsic advantages for the Imperial system.

      Who can visualize something divided by ten or even worse four tenths? I can easily visualize something half or a third of any given length. Furthermore English units are related to something immediately tangible: I can walk out a floor measurement in feet. Yards are also ultimately related to the length of an arm. But millionths of the arc distance from the pole to the equator? Please.

  7. Yes, but look at the bureaucracy by findoutmoretoday · · Score: 1

    According to Parkinson,  independently of the fleet out there, every organisation will, over the years, successfully build out a bureaucracy. And I rather be behind a desk than stowed small anywhere on a ship.

  8. the French ESA by findoutmoretoday · · Score: 1

    In the good old days an ESA launch was French when successful and strictly ESA otherwise.

  9. Canada! by bronney · · Score: 1

    Hey bro, what is a bicycle?? We use canoes here please get your facts straight!

    1. Re:Canada! by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 1

      I'm sure you have more bicycles in Venice than automobiles.

  10. I predict... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...twice the bureaucracy, at least twice the cost and time to completion.

  11. Not a federal state, a supranational association by andersh · · Score: 1

    Wrong, wrong, wrong. The EU is not a federal government, power still lies with the national governments. In fact the EU is only an association of sovereign states, a supranational state.
    The European Parliament is powerless, the Commission has some powers.
    And the EU only has 27 member countries out of 47 European countries! The EU is in NO way synonymous with Europe.
    This is a common mistake that many Americans make nowadays, assuming that the EU is some kind of federal government of Europe. It is most certainly not.

  12. Anonymous Coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As if the 3 year journey to Mars weren't bad enough, now American astronauts will be forced to eat shitty British food along the way!

  13. Re:Not a federal state, a supranational associatio by Nadaka · · Score: 1

    And the United States of America consists of 50 independent sovereign states and 3 territories out of the 91 states in North America (US, Canada, Mexico, apologies to the smaller Caribbean and Central American states). Or at least, the states started as sovereign until a certain president violated the constitution to wage war against the Confederacy over their legal and rightful succession.

  14. Needs another tag by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    sharetheload

  15. Whooosh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nothing more to say... smartass.

  16. MEJI? by Eclipse-now · · Score: 1

    Why not call it "Mars Association for Roving and Study"?

  17. ESA left out in the COLD of Space ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ESA does NOT want to get left out in the cold -- its COLD in SPACE !!!

    The new plasma engine is a MASSIVE breakthrough and could take off economically any day now, I think most people will be taken by surprise for a few years by this NEXT BIG THING, ESA is smarter then it looks !!!!!!!