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Getting a Classic PC Working After 25 Years?

Posted by kdawson on from the lotus-123-baby dept.

tunersedge writes "Yesterday I dug out of my parents' basement a PC they had bought brand new in 1984: Epson Equity I personal computer; 512K RAM; 82-key keyboard; 2 (count 'em!, 2) 5.25" floppy disk drives; 13' RGB monitor (with contrast/brightness knobs); handy on/off switch; healthy 25-year-old yellowed plastic; absolutely no software. (My mom ran a pre-school, and they used it to keep records and payroll. I cut my programming teeth on this thing. GW-Basic was my friend. Kings Quest screens took 2 minutes to load when you walked into a new one.) When I resurrected this machine I pulled the case off, dusted out a little, and plugged it in. It actually fired up! I'm stoked, except the disks we had are missing. What I'm looking to do is either buy some old working disks with whatever I can find (MS-DOS 3.22, GW-Basic, whatever), or try and recreate some using a USB-based floppy drive and some modern software. Has anyone tried to resurrect a PC this old before?"

27 of 533 comments (clear)

  1. You already know where to go for disks.... by Cheviot · · Score: 5, Informative

    Ebay is your friend!

    1. Re:You already know where to go for disks.... by Larryish · · Score: 3, Informative

      Thrift stores.

      You should check out thrift stores.

      I see 5 1/4 inch floppy disks in those places all the time. Cheap.

    2. Re:You already know where to go for disks.... by PhotoJim · · Score: 3, Informative

      Double density is what these drives used, and high density are easier to find. Is that what you meant?

      Single density disks weren't that commonly used. The only reasonably common system I can think of that used them was the Atari 8-bit machines, and even then only if you had the original 810 5.25" disk drive. The later 1050 used double density disks (but could read and write single density disks with a lower capacity).

    3. Re:You already know where to go for disks.... by pegr · · Score: 3, Informative

      16 bit SCSI card, my friend. Adaptec 1542CF is what you want. Actually, a 16-bit IDE host adapter should be fine. I might even have one of those as well. Reply if you're interested...

    4. Re:You already know where to go for disks.... by Philip+K+Dickhead · · Score: 3, Informative

      Some of the old AT cards would work in XT slots - that's why the notch was there! Half the card hangs out in space.

      That said, many Adaptec SCSI cards did not work in 8-bit XT slots - I can't recall the specifics for the 15x1 cards - because they justifiable required all 16-bits for a data pathway.

      --
      "Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell
    5. Re:You already know where to go for disks.... by dosius · · Score: 4, Informative

      I've used a couple models of Epson Equity. The custom DOS version 3.2 on the XT model (Equity I) is easy to find online, but there's really nothing special about it. The AT model (Equity III) had DOS 4.01 and it was a generic version.

      MS-DOS 3.3 is probably the easiest to find and is the ideal version for an XT-class system. A full 3.3 will have GW-BASIC on disk 2.

      -uso.

      --
      What you hear in the ear, preach from the rooftop Matthew 10.27b
    6. Re:You already know where to go for disks.... by Eric+Smith · · Score: 3, Informative
      Double density 5.25 inch disks work just fine at single density.

      Double density (AKA "standard density" or 360K) cannot reliably be formatted for high density (1.2M) use, or vice versa, because the coercivity of the media is significantly different.

      IBM-compatible PCs have never used single density as a standard disk format, and many IBM-compatible PCs can't actually deal with single density, though some can. The first disk drives shipped on PCs were single sided, though IBM switched to double sided fairly early on. The format progression for media on the PC, AT, PS/2, and compatibles was:

      1. 160K (5.25 inch, 40 track, double density, 8 sectors per track, single sided, 300 RPM), first supported by IBM DOS 1.0
      2. 320K (5.25 inch, 40 track, DD, 9 SPT, double sided, 360 RPM), first supported by IBM DOS 1.1
      3. 180K (5.25 inch, 40 track, DD, 9 SPT, SS, 300 RPM), first supported by IBM DOS 2.0
      4. 360K (5.25 inch, 40 track, DD, 9 SPT, double sided, 300 RPM), first supported by IBM DOS 2.0
      5. 1.2M (5.25 inch, 80 track, high density, 15 SPT, DS, 360 RPM), first supported by IBM DOS 3.0
      6. 720K (3.5 inch, 80 track, DD, 9 SPT, double sided, 360 RPM), first supported by IBM DOS 3.2
      7. 1440K (3.5 inch, 80 track, HD, 18 SPT, DS, 360 RPM), first supported by IBM DOS 3.3

      There were, of course, other formats not supported by IBM DOS, but used by other vendors or other software.

  2. FreeDOS by Skuld-Chan · · Score: 4, Informative

    FreeDOS probably would boot on this machine.

    I actually know the machine you're talking about - except I had a HDD. I know for a fact the thing will run MS-DOS 5.0.x

  3. Watch out on the usb floppy.. by tuorum · · Score: 4, Informative

    Thought they make them, they are probably all 1.2MB ones, which use a much smaller write head and might not be easily readable on the old 360KB drives. YMMV and it can't hurt to test. Good luck!

    1. Re:Watch out on the usb floppy.. by tuorum · · Score: 5, Informative

      Right. However, creating 360k disks in a 1.2MB drive may not be easily readable by an actual 360k drive due to the different read/write head sizes between the two. The smaller head on the 1.2 doesn't have a problem with the wider tracks of the 360k, but the other way around is know to cause issues.

    2. Re:Watch out on the usb floppy.. by Glonoinha · · Score: 4, Informative

      Just a thought - unless I'm mistaken, the floppy cable that plugs into a 3.5" drive also fits in a 5.25" drive - and the power connector for regular PATA hard drives also fits the 5.25" floppy drive. If that is still the case, all he needs to do is put his old 5.25" drive next to a new computer, plug in the cables and fire it up. Create a boot floppy using the Windows 95 'create a boot floppy' utility or however you make boot floppys now (I have a .img file of that boot floppy I use to create boot CDs, so it's been a while since I made a boot floppy - format a: /s maybe?)

      Put the 5.25" drive and your new boot floppy back in and Voila! you are all set.

      --
      Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
  4. Quality that lasts. by Qwrk · · Score: 3, Informative

    Getting these things up and running is no surprise to me. It seems that they used quality stuff in them days. I have loads of these oldies that haven't been booted for 10+ years and upon plugging them in they start off as if nothing ever happened. Drives with a ST-506 interface in particular seem to be of an indistructible kind of quality-make. Feel free to contact me for disks, or as stated; check eBay of contact Bruce Damer of the DigiBarn [http://www.digibarn.com/].

  5. This might help... by drakaan · · Score: 5, Informative

    ...healthy 25-year-old yellowed plastic...

    This might help with that part of the restoration (cheap and DIY)...

    --
    "Murphy was an optimist" - O'Toole's commentary on Murphy's Law
  6. Disks? by sepelester · · Score: 5, Informative

    http://www.bootdisk.com/

  7. Re:Contact Customer Support? by bentfork · · Score: 5, Informative
    I was going to post a similar link, instead I'll post a link to Product Support Bulletins

    http://files.support.epson.com/pdf/e1____/e1____ps.pdf

    There's a reference to a few HDD controller mentioned, jumper positions, etc.

    I'd bet you could hack a modern fdd into it fairly easily...

  8. Re:Contact Customer Support? by Wain13001 · · Score: 4, Informative

    I used to do this all the time with game companies back in the nineties. Often times they'd send me free copies of their C-64 programs and whatnot. It is absolutely worth a shot even though nowadays the operator on the phone is probably not going to even understand your request and/or believe that such a product ever existed.

  9. Re:5.25" floppy disk drives by sigmoid_balance · · Score: 3, Informative

    Problem is Linux runs on 386+. You might be able to run something like ucLinux on 286, but i doubt you'll be able to run anything like Linux on a 8088/8086/80186. With 512k RAM you won't be able to boot any kernel, no matter how old.

  10. Awesome find!!! Here's some software suggestions. by samalex01 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Hi!

    What an awesome find! You can actually download all the software you'd ever want for the system here - http://www.vetusware.com/ - which is a website with hundreds of abandoned software titles for download free. They do have various versions of MS-DOS, which I'd suggest MS-DOS 5.0 or higher because I still have nightmares of edlin *cringe*. They do have MS-DOS 6.22 for download along with GWBasic, QBasic, Borland C++ for DOS, etc for development. I assume since you said the system is from 1984 that's it's an 8086 or 8088 which rules out Windows 3.x.

    After years of using TRS-80 systems I moved to an 8088 XT clone in 1990 running MS-DOS 3.3, and as you that's where I really started learning to code with GWBasic. About 6 years ago I had some stuff in my closet shift one evening and that old system fell from the top shelf to the floor never to boot again. I wish I still had it, but a few years ago I did pull out an old 486SX system I picked up used in college (around 1996) and played with some of these old DOS languages and games.

    Have fun though... so many people cast away these old systems as boat anchors, but they're awesome to work with if you have some patience.

  11. I have experince with this. by Zombie+Ryushu · · Score: 5, Informative

    You need to upgrade the RAM to 640 KB. Generally Radio Shack has some SIPPs you can add to the motherboard to add the last 128 KB.

    You will need to find a Double density 3.5 floppy drive with a Card edge adaptor. This will allow you to use double density 3.5 floppies in the computer. (High Density will not work.)

    You can network this be getting an 8-bit NIC that has a BNC and AUI port, then adding an AUI to UTP tranciever, but you can't use DHCP with it. The WATTCP stack for Dos will require a static IP.

    If the video card is in an ISA slot, (and some times even it it isn't.) get a 16 bit ISA Trident VGA Card. This will give you VGA, EGA and CGA support. You can then plug the Computer into a standard monitor.

  12. Vintage Computing by orsty3001 · · Score: 4, Informative

    http://www.vintagecomputing.com/forum/ These guys have a lot of experience with knowing where old stuff is today and keeping stuff like that working. One of thousands of places to check out online.

  13. Re:Sad Joke... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    "I've said some stupid things and some wrong things, but not that. No one involved in computers would ever say that a certain amount of memory is enough for all time ... I keep bumping into that silly quotation attributed to me that says 640K of memory is enough. There's never a citation; the quotation just floats like a rumor, repeated again and again." http://groups.google.com/group/alt.folklore.computers/msg/99ce4b0555bf35f4?pli=1

  14. Re:Sad Joke... by LizardKing · · Score: 5, Informative

    Sad? No, actually it's annoying. Bill Gates never actually said what you think he said.

  15. Bootstrap via serial port? by Smidge204 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Okay, this may not help but then again it might...

    I dug up an old Laser 128 (Apple II compatible) with no working software and was able to get it working using the following method. I don't know if your machine has a compatible feature, though.

    http://adtpro.sourceforge.net/bootstrap.html#Starting_from_bare_metal

    In short: using a second machine (In my case, running Win98) and a homebrew serial cable, configure the machine to be revived to treat serial port input as keyboard input, then keyboard input direct into memory (like a DEBUG prompt) - If you can do that then the rest of the procedure might actually work with compatible software.

    The support machine "types" the software directly into the host machine's memory and executes it. In the link above, you start with a ProDOS image which then gets written to disk so you can boot the machine normally.
    =Smidge=

  16. Re:Sad Joke... by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 5, Informative

    http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/1997/01/1484

    --

    "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
  17. Re:Sad Joke... by corky842 · · Score: 3, Informative
    It's right here!

    Deja vu...

  18. Re:Sad Joke... by 1u3hr · · Score: 3, Informative
    It's right here!

    No, it isn't. Are you trolling, or just never botherd to listen to it? If you had listened to it, you 'd have to admit HE DOES NOT say "640 k should be enough for anyone".

    The only part you could be referring to is:

    So that's a 1 MB address space. And in that original design I took the upper 340k and decided that a certain amount should be for video memory, a certain amount for the ROM and I/O, and that left 640k for general purpose memory. And that leads to today's situation where people talk about the 640k memory barrier; the limit of how much memory you can put to these machines. I have to say that in 1981, making those decisions, I felt like I was providing enough freedom for 10 years. That is, a move from 64k to 640k felt like something that would last a great deal of time. Well, it didn't - it took about only 6 years before people started to see that as a real problem.

    Which if YOU READ THE FUCKING THING, is him speaking in 1989, years after the design was set (1980 or 81), saying that 640k was certainly not enough.

    You found a paragraph where Bill Gates mentions "640 k". Unfortunately, it's not remotely close to the "quote".

  19. Re:Sad Joke... by corky842 · · Score: 3, Informative
    OK, my memory was a bit fuzzy; it's been a few years since I listened to it.

    Think about how easy it would be to misinterpret it if you wanted to. "...640k felt like something that would last a great deal of time."

    Digging through an old story here on /.:

    Do a Usenet search on the phrase. Though usually dated 1981 or thereabouts, the first time it appears on the record is August 1992 (in a Mac newsgroup). Never has anyone cited the circumstances, the place and exact date, he's suposed to have said this.

    -----

    Quite so. The actual remark was made by Steve Jobs to Steve Wozniak regarding building a card to expand the Apple II's memory from the max possible on the motherboard of 48K to a full 64K (the "language card"). Jobs' statement "Who would ever want more than 48K?" has been misattributed and misquoted for years, as have many statements made by some that sound so much better coming from someone else. The answer was, almost everybody. When the IIe came out it had 64K on the board and could accept a second 64K card. The IIc came with two full 64K banks installed.

    Jobs was frequently at odds with Wozniak over technical issues. Jobs wanted no more than 2 slots in the Apple II. Woz wanted 8 and put them in. Jobs argued against color. Woz put it in, first in blocky lo-res, then in an awesome hack that resulted in 16 color (including two blacks and two whites) hi-res. Other examples exist, but these two illustrate Jobs' penchant for one-upsmanship: When he built the first Mac, it had no color and no slots.

    Jobs' quote was in many MOTD files during the late 70's and early 80's, until the misattributed Gates quote started replacing it.

    (The part in your post starts at around 22 minutes in case anyone else is reading this and doesn't want to sit through the whole 1.5 hours.)