Which Language Approach For a Computer Science Degree?

wikid_one writes "I recently went back to college to finish my CS degree, however this time I moved to a new school. My previous school taught only C++, except for a few higher level electives (OpenGL). The school I am now attending teaches what seems like every language in the book. The first two semesters are Java, and then you move to Python, C, Bash, Oracle, and Assembly. While I feel that it would be nice to get a well-rounded introduction to the programming world, I also feel that I am going to come out of school not having the expertise required in a single language to land a good job. After reading the syllabi, all the higher level classes appear to teach concepts rather than work to develop advanced techniques in a specific language. Which method of teaching is going to better provide me with the experience I need, as well as the experience an employer wants to see in a college graduate?"

Comments

Hobby

[sopssa]

After reading the syllabi, all the higher level classes appear to teach concepts rather than work to develop advanced techniques in a specific language.

It's great that you have it like that. Its the concepts that matter more than just teaching some language dependant pack of tricks. Languages can always be learnt afterwards and quickly, and they also tend to change during years. Concept stay somewhat the same, and those are what you need to understand. I wish I would had the same kind of program in school.

I also feel that I am going to come out of school not having the expertise required in a single language to land a good job.

Usually programmers are quite self-taught. Schools can teach you concepts and languages, but the real knowledge comes from when you're interested in it and try out and do stuff. Yes, this means you should have some interest in coding at home for your pleasure too, as a hobby. I would think that programming would being really really boring if you dont have the interest to learn yourself or even program your own stuff at home.

You didn't mention if you do programming yourself, but if you dont you should start to. Start coding some games yourself or stuff you think are useful to you. Or learn PHP and start coding websites. You can even start to make some cash out of it, either by selling your software/game, running websites or coding as a freelancer. Try out things.

However the most stupid approach is to think you should be awesome in one language and lack everything else. Usually you need combination of different languages and better understanding generally. Read some programmer job listings and you see how they always contain lots of different thingies and qualities they're looking for. Programming languages used at work will most likely change aswell (Java was hot in some apps programming years ago, but C# and other languages have been stealing position from it). This is why you want to have the general understanding instead of just knowing tricks&tips of one language.

Re:Hobby

[fishbowl]

>If I went back and redid my education there is just one major thing I would have done differently: I would have learnt python from the beginning.

I would have taken some business courses, enough to learn the nomenclature of manufacturing inventory control and supply chain management, and also some senior-management level finance and accounting courses. This is what slowed down my career as a software developer. It doesn't matter how well you know IT and programming; if you have to rely on the expertise of others to understand the business, you will always be subordinate to them.

Re:Hobby

[m6ack]

I thought of posting this separately, but I really wanted to echo sopssa. What you have is a "GOOD THING" at this school.

You are getting a well rounded education in concepts, like object orientation, functional programming, scripting, and sand-boxed virtual machines. You're also getting closer to the metal with C and Assembly (Preferably Intel Protected mode?) -- and that's very cool.

My avenue was the hobby route, but I never really spent my time on the net. I'm an engineer by trade, but I found myself gradually learning coding within my organization more and more. I chiefly program now in sed, python, C++, and VBA; but the mix changes on a periodic basis. I write standard libraries, and a lot of filters and scripts to automate much tedious work within my organization... I try to program so that whatever application I write can be run on any OS -- though some of my stuff lately works best on Linux. (Linux is OK, because people can log into the workstations from their Windows PC's). Cross-platform and Open is the way to go, because you never want to force your customer to disrupt his work-flow to use your tool, and you want your customer to be able to figure out what you're doing and take over support as much as possible.

So, with my scripts, a lot of people internally at my company have become my customers. This work has taken over much more of my job as my rep built... And now we do about an order of magnitude more work than we used to with a single engineer. The tedium of filling out spreadsheets or copying by hand is largely a thing of the past. So much work is being done so quickly that the vendors that we work with are getting very nervous that they will be able to keep up with what we are doing -- and with us us targeting multiple vendors in our work-flow they are very worried about competition.

One other thing I learned -- we can learn much from the "Old Ways." What a horrible, nasty, terse, poorly documented -- and absolutely wonderful gem -- sed is! How nicely does it fit in with the UNIX toolkit: regular expressions with VIM, grep, and find; and roughly stapling things together with xargs and bash! You learn one thing by doing another, and you become so much more productive. Recently, I had to do a remote debugging session over a slow link. There were 50 engineers in the room, and a tag-team of 3 driving the remote system. How nice it was to have VIM there -- hacking stuff with only a few keystrokes to select and change lines on the fly, rather than having to wait a minute to click and select via some GUI. We were extremely successful and productive. I got promoted because of this -- because I drove the creation of tools, and because I learned to become proficient in the "Old Ways."

Because you are not established within a company, you'll have to find another avenue to get yourself noticed, and you'll have to find another way to find your niche. I think that the best way for you to get noticed is to find some Open Source project on the net to dig your fingers into. You build your rep., and you find your niche -- find out what you like, and keep doing it. Let your direction change as you find out what your interests are. Keep learning new ways of doing things, and don't be afraid to experiment with crazy ideas. Make a positive contribution to how things are done -- make something better from the inside out.

I like this quote from Daniel Phillips (Tux3): "A weak coder becomes a strong coder by reading code and writing code every day for fun."

Re:Hobby

[complete loony]

If there is a single language that is not taught enough for real world experience, it's SQL. Just about any business programming job is going to involve storing and reporting on data. While a CS degree is going to give you a basic introduction to SQL, I feel that SQL should be introduced earlier and worked into more of the assignments you are asked to write.

Re:Hobby

[iamhassi]

"not having the expertise required in a single language to land a good job."

I answered this a few months ago on another post. I'll just link to my old post so you guys can follow the links, but I copied and pasted it below. Languages to know are C/C++ and Java, everything else is derivative.

"Since anything you're taught about computers is mostly obsolete in a few years..."

You're not a programmer, are you? I ask because no programmer would ever say that.

The C programming language came out in 72 [wikipedia.org], and C++ came a few years later [wikipedia.org]. Both are in the top three most popular programming languages [tiobe.com] "based on the number of skilled engineers world-wide, courses and third party vendors" and they make up 25% out of the top 20 languages in the list. Although the number one language, Java, makes up 19%, it "derives much of its syntax from C and C++" and Java came out in 1995 [wikipedia.org].

Other sources say C is still responsible for nearly 50% of new open source projects, followed by Java with 28%. [theregister.co.uk]

So even if you took a programming class 30 years ago it would still very much apply today.

Your school is right

[enrevanche]

A CS degree is not about making you a monkey that can program only one language. It is about learning how to think. The multi-language approach will ensure that you are exposed to many ways of representation.

The "real" world will train you how to be a monkey well enough.

If knowing one language well enough to get a job, a certification in Java, C# or whatever will serve your simian side better. Use the knowledge in the diversity in languages to tell potential employer that you can quickly learn to program in whatever environment is required.

Re:Your school is right

[sixoh1]

There are two kinds of CS degrees, one tends to be more like a MSCE type degree aimed at getting you employed in a job shop. Typically you'll find these at ITT or University of Phoenix. Frankly, as an employer of CS folks, I can tell you these degrees are not worth the paper they are written on, and they rarely offer job security, they teach you to be a 'cog' instead of an independent thinker.

The second type sounds like your new school. These are more complex and are more like an engineering degree which is about a solid practical basis (tools) and good breadth so you know where to start when some thing new comes along. I dont expect a proper CS graduate to "know" anything or be really ready to work on their own immediately, but I do need the to be able to work at learning the new things independently. The workplace is too varied and complex for college to teach you the important things, but I cannot take the time to spoon feed a neo when there is a deadline bearing down.

The first parent post has another thing exactly right, if you develop your own skills by doing some hobby work, that is where you can get the 'practical' skills you seem to crave. The bonus there is that you can prove to a prospective employer that you have the one thing colleges and trade schools cannot possibly teach: drive. There is absolutely no specific coding technique that can make up for a lack of drive.
 

Re:Your school is right

[ari_j]

I agree. This question has been asked on Slashdot more than once. Probably more than once in the past week. Every time, it's someone thinking that becoming adept at one language is the path to zen. Here are a couple of analogies to the question presented here:

I want to learn how to build houses. Should I learn how to use a screwdriver or should I go with the hammer?
I want to learn how to fix cars. Should I learn all about the carburetor* or should I focus more on the brake pads?
I want to be a linguist. Should I become fluent in Latin or Japanese? Why does this accredited linguistics department insist on me taking all sorts of philosophy and linguistics classes, when I should be learning a language?

* - For the benefit of the people who consistently reply to my analogies involving carburetors that carburetors are obsolete and not in common use, please note that that is the damn point of my using them in this analogy.

Re:Your school is right

[pyite]

but I also think it's important for a graduate of a 4-year CS degree to be an expert in at least one.

I've used this quote time and time again on here, and I'll use it again: "Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes." -- Edsger W. Dijkstra.

And this one is completely appropriate to, as to why Knuth uses MIX/MMIX in his books and not some other language. The same thing applies exactly to a university program of computer science:

"Moreover, if I did use a high-level language, what language should it be? In the 1960s I would probably have chosen Algol W; in the 1970s, I would then have had to rewrite my books using Pascal; in the 1980s, I would surely have changed everything to C; in the 1990s, I would have had to switch to C++ and then probably to Java. In the 2000s, yet another language will no doubt be de rigueur. I cannot afford the time to rewrite my books as languages go in and out of fashion; languages aren't the point of my books, the point is rather what you can do in your favorite language. My books focus on timeless truths."

Being in expert in one programming language is fine if you just want to be a programmer. If you want to be a computer scientist, it's neither necessary nor sufficient.

Re:Your school is right

[GlassHeart]

I think you may be taking Dijkstra out of context. While it's important not to be tied to the physics of contemporary computers, his own algorithms do make assumptions about the machine that might implement them. For example, many problems are trivially solved by a infinite number of infinitely fast CPUs, but that doesn't get us anywhere. Take the simple binary search, for example, and you'll see the core assumption that comparisons are expensive. It is in that sense that computer science is about computers, although it must not be limited to what contemporary computers can do.

But more to the point, Knuth is an expert in programming. He wrote TeX, one of the most famously bug-free* programs in existence. I agree completely with his point of not getting bogged down by the language du jour, but I'm not talking about the language du jour. I'm talking about a language.

Do you actually know of a good computer scientist who can't program?

* US$327.68 awaits.

Too dumb to realize new school is better

[ehack]

New school teaches every language + programmming concepts and our poster complains - maybe the new gen kids are unteachable.

Maybe you're the wrong place

[Ritchie70]

Despite what many believe, a CS degree is not about learning to program. A CS degree is about learning the theoretical and mathematical constructs that programming is based on.

If you know those basics, the language is largely irrelevant.

C is Pascal is Java is JavaScript is VB is C# is C++ - it's mostly syntactic sugar if you ignore the objects, and even the objects are similar. If you can't swap {} for () or begin-end or whatever, you have no hope of being a decent programmer.

If you're looking for vocational programming training, find a vocational school. It's that simple.

Go with the way your new school does it.

[KiltedKnight]

OK, let me put it to you this way:

Let's say I'm a hiring manager and conducting interviews for junior programmers.

If you get your degree from the first school, I'm only going to hire you if I need a person who's going to write the code he's told to write. I'm never going to assign stuff to you that requires you to do any kind of analysis.

If you get your degree from the school to which you transferred, you are far more likely to get hired into a position with a lot of growth opportunities. You will have not only know some of several languages, you will also have a good background in abstract concepts.

The problem with most schools today is that they focus far too narrowly on one topic instead of teaching the concepts necessary to handle what tasks are placed in front of the graduates. There have been several articles about the "Java schools" and how the graduates of them can barely program their way out of a paper bag because they don't have the broader information necessary to do a proper analysis. Sure, with modern languages you can often "ignore" things like memory management and code optimization. Unfortunately, all too often I've seen what happens when things are written by people who have no understanding of how to apply basic concepts... when something should be a compiled application... when something should be a simple shell script (mind you, the person who did this thinks that a compiled program with calls to "system()" make this a "system program" and doesn't even know how to write a shell script... I am going to have to clean up that mess in the near future)... and even when to use what language.

No one language is the be-all and end-all of programming. Each language is a tool. You don't normally use a screwdriver to hammer in a nail or as a chisel... so why should you use C or C++ to write what is better written as a shell script? Why would you use Java to write something that requries careful memory management? (Yes, I know some people would just put the question mark after "Java"... :) ) Because it's all you know how to do? Guess what... either you're not getting the job for which you just interviewed or I'm going to have to go hire someone else to augment my team to do what you should've been able to do... which means when it comes time for RIFs, you're name is going to go towards the top of the list because you can only minimally contribute to the team.

Re:Go to a "trade school" for that. Not a universi

[minsk]

Not unless trade schools suddenly get better, and software engineering programs suddenly become ubiquitous.

And not while most students learn better by implementing parts of the theory. And not while employers expect them to be half-competent coders.

And, well, not :)

Languages don't matter

[erikharrison]

I make the hiring decisions at my company. I check to see if people can solve complex problems. I don't care what language you know. You can learn PHP in a couple of hours. Sure, your first 5.000 SLOC are going to look like whatever language you know best, but right out of college your first 5.000 SLOC are going to suck anyway.

Learning a bunch of languages has the advantage that you learn what concepts are universal to programming and what are just entrenched in the language, but what really matters is learning to think algorithmically, no matter how many languages you know, be it one or one thousand.

It sounds like you've already made your decision about which school you're attending, you just want some assurance that this education won't be wasted. Let me assure you that it won't.

Re:Languages don't matter

[Glonoinha]

Machine generated code doesn't count.
According to my experience over the years I'd say that 100 lines of code* per day is about average for good developers over the life of a project. Yea that's 12.5 LOC per hour, sustained. My unscientific findings support the research by IBM, et.al for what that's worth.

* That's 100 lines of code that actually provides computational value towards function points of the application - not machine generated code, not getters and setters, not formatting web pages - real work. It also includes the time testing, documenting, debugging, and getting the code working in an integrated fashion with the rest of the code by other developers.

Re:well if you want employment

[thenextstevejobs]

I've been a SQL

Stop right there. This is probably some of the best advice you'll get.

Of course, it depends on what you want to do. But for the standard, current-track Internet/Cloud/Distributed blah blah blah, many people are dreadfully bad at SQL for how much it applies to their job.

That said, haven't we had enough of these language posts? You can google this and you'll see the same arguments spread out since the birth of the Intarwebs. Everyone has doubts about the language that their using when they don't know many, and want to know what to use.

Just be glad that you didn't attend a program that only taught you Java and never showed you how operating systems really work or what a pointer is. That is a great start.

As someone whose worked in a few of the largest software companies, I can tell you that this really isn't a big concern. You won't get tested on the vagaries of a programming language in an interview. They want to know exactly what you're being taught: that you understand the theories and concepts underlying what you are doing. Projects never use only one language. You often need some glue (Perl, Python, Ruby, etc) and some 'lower-level' code (C++, Java), some data storage (SQL), and maybe a dynamic web page or two (PHP).

Get an internship. This was the best way for me to learn where I fit in on a development team, what sort of thing I felt inadequate at compared to my co-workers, and learned the place of programming language in the work environment. By the time you've gotten your second or third job, most people don't list languages on their resumes anymore.

Once you know a few languages, it shouldn't take you more than a week or two to pick up a new language. On the topic of being an 'expert' at a language, that probably isn't important for your first job. What you need is strong foundations, a good attitude, and hopefully avoiding a tendency to break all the existing code.

If you're really passionate about programming, you'll probably pick up a few languages and be enthusiastic about one or another at a time. I'm currently on a big C++ and Perl kick, as well as loving debuggers in lieu of print statements.

If you're not passionate about this and you want a good 40 hour a week job where you only need to know a thing or two, I don't know what to tell you. I've found this field rewarding because the limit is only how much I'm able to learn and apply. And I've found my employers have recognized that.

Use the right tool for the job. Write readable code in whatever language you write in. Good code is easy to understand, efficient, and concise.

Put on your flame-retardant mecha-suits, this thread is about to get spicy.

Final note: Do everyone a favor and learn how to use grep and other Unix tools to do simple data transformation tasks.

Re:Go to a "trade school" for that. Not a universi

[happyemoticon]

That's like saying an Art MFA shouldn't teach any actual art in any particular medium, just hypothetical art.

There IS a distinction between the "craft" of programming in any particular language and software engineering, but in order to become a software engineer, you need to work through the medium of the language. That's the only way to access it. Knowing how to paint in oils doesn't make you a good artist, but you do have to start making art in some manner in order to get there.

You should be asking a different question

[azav]

Learn how to work on a team, work with QA, and learn how to deliver products.

That's what you need to be asking.

Wrong Major

[daemonc]

If after a year or more of college, you think OpenGL and Oracle are programming languages, maybe CS isn't the right major for you.

As others have suggested, try a trade school or community college. They will be happy to teach you to be a single language code monkey, without bogging you down with complicated high-level concepts like "what is a programming language?"

Algorithms and Data Structures

[PleaseFearMe]

Learn about Binary Search Trees, Red Black Trees, Bubble Sort, Quick Sort, Heaps, etc. Those are the important things to know. Bob Dylan is not famous for knowing English grammar and spelling. He is famous for what he does with them. Teach him Chinese, and he can most likely make amazing songs in Chinese as well. You didn't go to college to learn grammar and spelling. You can learn that in elementary school. Instead, you're going to college to learn how to use the language to create amazing things. It is an abstract level above the syntax level you see on the computer screen, and it is something crucial that anyone learning anything in college _must_ understand.

Re:Algorithms and Data Structures

[Mad Merlin]

You learn about bubble sort just so you can understand how terrible it is (and how much better quicksort is).

Re:Algorithms and Data Structures

[Blakey Rat]

You learn it for that reason, then you never, ever use it because instead you use the .Sort() build-in to the toolset you're using. As you should.

Re:Algorithms and Data Structures

[Nazlfrag]

They didn't reinvent the wheel for the Porsche 911, but they did custom design and engineer it. If you cannot custom design and engineer your own sorting algorithms you will never make a sports car, only a bodykit for a VW.

Python is the future

[Phroggy]

As a Perl lover it really pains me to say it, but Python appears to be really taking off. You're going to start seeing Python used by businesses in the same way that they've been using Java over the past decade.

Re:Go to a "trade school" for that. Not a universi

[Anonymous Coward]

But timothy didn't ask about a software engineering degree. He asked about a computer science degree. Computer science is the study of the topics of mathematics that relate to computation. CS programs should teach theory, algorithms, data structures, complexity, computability, logic, and the like. I disagree with themeparkphoto, though, because I think that programming languages are a very useful tool to teach these concepts. But they aren't the goal, they are only the means.

Bible Bashing

[gd2shoe]

Close. Bible bashing is a heated argument between two people of differing faiths where they each try to win by claiming specific passages in the Bible that back them up. It usually gets ugly. The Bible is reinterpreted and misinterpreted so thoroughly that it cannot be used to quell such a discussion. To use a net term - Bible bashing is a religious flame war where the ammo of choice is scripture.

It's a bad practice (I believe: an evil one). It should be avoided.

Your definition of Bible thumping is common and appropriate. I think the etymology of the term is different from those who engage in the practice, though. Many pastors literally slam their Bible into the podium as they preach (Making a loud "thump"). On the other hand, I don't think the major proselytizing religions usually do that. I'm not sure why that term stuck to the wrong group of people. (probably historical significance somewhere)