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Why the Photos On Wikipedia Are So Bad

Posted by kdawson on from the does-this-cellphone-snap-make-me-look-fat dept.

Reservoir Hill writes "The NY Times has an article investigating why, unlike the articles on Wikipedia which in theory are improved, fact checked, footnoted, and generally enhanced over time, the photos that go with Wikipedia articles are so bad and in many cases there is no photo at all for even well known public figures. Few high-quality photographs, particularly of celebrities, make it onto on Wikipedia because Wikipedia runs only pictures with the most permissive Creative Commons license, which allows anyone to use an image, for commercial purposes or not, as long as the photographer is credited. 'Representatives or publicists will contact us' horrified at the photographs on the site, says Jay Walsh, a spokesman for the Wikimedia Foundation. 'They will say: "I have this image. I want you to use this image." But it is not as simple as uploading a picture that is e-mailed to us.' Recent photographs on Wikipedia are almost exclusively the work of amateurs who don't mind giving away their work. 'Amateur may be too kind a word; their photos tend to be the work of fans who happen to have a camera,' opines the Times's author. Ultimately the issue for professional photographers who might want to donate their work is copyright. 'To me the problem is the Wikipedia rule of public use,' says Jerry Avenaim, a celebrity photographer. 'If they truly wanted to elevate the image on the site, they should allow photographers to maintain the copyright.'"

21 of 572 comments (clear)

  1. This is good and Jerry Avenaim doesn't get it by Yvanhoe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Wikipedia does not have to increase its popularity, it has no online free rivals. It is the people who have a wikipedia page that will be willing to have such a nice picture than all American presidents who will provide copyleft pictures. If we can get RIAA-sponsored stars to interest themselves about these pesky legal issues, this is a great benefit.

    And if you really need a picture or are ready to (sigh) "steal" an image with a copyright, there is always Google Image, the greatest aggregator of ready-to-be-pirated copyrighted material.

    --
    The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    1. Re:This is good and Jerry Avenaim doesn't get it by Daengbo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Indeed, instead of this:

      'To me the problem is the Wikipedia rule of public use,' says Jerry Avenaim, a celebrity photographer. 'If they truly wanted to elevate the image on the site, they should allow photographers to maintain the copyright.'"

      We should be hearing "If the publicists really want clients in the best light, they'll provide a picture which meets the largest encyclopedia's standards."

      They just don't get it. It's one picture that you donate to the world in exchange for your name being mentioned. Sports sponsors have been doing something similar for a long time.

      --
      Put identity in the browser.
    2. Re:This is good and Jerry Avenaim doesn't get it by muridae · · Score: 5, Informative

      Hmm, let's work this out from the photographer's perspective. I go out to a studio, with all my gear and assistants, and do a model shoot of a celebrity. It's a whole days work, with hair and makeup changes, wardrobe, setting of lights before people get there, and tearing stuff down when they all leave. Maybe I'm lucky and have a stocked stage someplace, or maybe I want to shoot them on location somewhere. End of the day, I expect to get paid for this work. And what I expect to get paid depends on what the celebrity and their company want to do with the picture. Most of the time, they want exclusive control of the image, and I charge them for that. That means, I can not turn around and re-license the picture to Wiki under the CC, as the contract we have forbids it. That's the publicists problem, not mine. If the publicist wants the picture under the CC, I am going to charge more for it.

      Counter-intuitive, I know, but hear me out. By my licensing the picture under the CC, I would be giving the publicist, and the rest of the world, more rights than a normal photo contract provides, provided the photo shoot wasn't done as work for hire (15x base cost, minimum since I can never use those pics in a portfolio). Because I would lose future rights on the photo, for now and forever, I would charge accordingly. It's not greed, it's pragmatism. You say that a photographer retains their copyright, but if the picture is out there under the CC who needs to license it from the photographer under anything more restrictive? Since that is lost future potential revenue, it's going to cost more, period.

      I know this opinion won't fly well with the /. crowd. All data and stuff should be free unless it's the work I do for the company on their time and then I should be paid like a king for it. Funny that photographers think the same way about the pictures they take on someone else's time.

    3. Re:This is good and Jerry Avenaim doesn't get it by ta+bu+shi+da+yu · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Indeed. It's very amusing that on one hand, celebrities and public figures don't like the low quality images on Wikipedia, yet won't release pictures under Creative Commons licensing. They can't have it both ways. Either you get amateur and often less than flattering free pictures on the world's largest encyclopedia, or you release a high quality image under the appropriate license for use on the project.

      If you don't like either choice, then tough.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    4. Re:This is good and Jerry Avenaim doesn't get it by BenEnglishAtHome · · Score: 5, Informative

      Short of waiting to be blessed by some rich benefactor, how do YOU suggest a photographer make money at their trade?

      As a former photographer, I'll take a stab at that. I'll use wedding photography in most of my examples because that's the only time most people ever hire a photographer.

      They can get a rich benefactor. This isn't as crazy as it sounds. Customized porn, for example, can bring in a bundle. (And, no, I guess my first example doesn't have anything to do with weddings.)

      They can employ a modified rights management strategy. Lots of wedding photographers are drifting this way. They charge more for their work and then sell substantial or all rights to the happy couple. Full-res digital files are sold for a premium. Full rights are sold for a premium. They also make money off of web services, providing a web site to display the photos and make it easy for anyone to order prints for a nominal but mildly profitable cost. Some photographers even abandon all rights after a set period, usually a year.

      They can toss all idea of control. Some wedding photographers have begun seeking out digital-ready couples who want to handle all their own post-production work. In those cases, the photographer charges a reasonable rate for a days work and, at the end of the festivities, burns a DVD with all the pics and hands it to the couple or their rep. This sort of "shoot, burn, and run" business model is definitely low-rent and is metaphorically spat on by traditional wedding photographers, but it's profitable for folks who view the job with as much romance as a plumber views lead pipe. It also makes "better-than-your-shutterbug-uncle" wedding photography available to lots of people who couldn't otherwise afford it.

      They can cling to the old model. There will always be high-end jobs to be done for rich clients who don't want to get their hands dirty. These are the people who will pay $500 per 8x10 print for an album with 100 prints in it, then turn around and pay $800-$3000 for additional, single prints to hang on the wall or give to family. These are the people who expect to sit down in a studio business office where they're served champagne, make nice talk, write a check, and not have to think about it again.

      They can sell prints. Lots of people make money in the fine-art print business. By doing so, they can retain all the traditional rights because their target audience would never conceive of pulling a 20x24 print out of the frame to get it scanned so they can email it to friends or pirate it to a commercial buyer.

      They can shoot for stock. This is nowhere near the money-maker it once was but for a talented and prolific shooter, it can make money.

      They can ridiculously specialize. Some businesses have photo needs so specialized that there's no secondary market for the work. Thus, it doesn't matter if the photographer retains rights or not because he will definitely be charging significant money up front.

      They can graduate beyond weddings and portraits to commercial work that pays big. Few will succeed, but for some it's worth a shot.

      They can negotiate rights with the buyer. Whether it's your wedding, portrait, your dog's portait, or whatever, nearly everyone is open to the concept of buying rights that stipulate the buyer can use the photos for any non-commercial purpose with attribution. This allows the photographer to maintain control enough to make money (sell the photos if their subject ever becomes famous, show them in a portfolio, etc.) while allowing the buyer to do virtually everything they can conceive with the photos without interference (give to friends, publish in the newspaper, put on their web site, etc.)

      This list is poorly organized because I typed it stream-of-consciousness style in just a few minutes. Given a few days to mull it over, I could probably get a good start on writing a book on the subject. The bottom line is that, yes, the world is changing and it's getting to be harder for photographers. But the talented, hardworking, adaptable ones will always be able to make a living.

  2. Freedom versus high quality pictures by noidentity · · Score: 5, Insightful

    To me the problem is the Wikipedia rule of public use,' says Jerry Avenaim, a celebrity photographer. 'If they truly wanted to elevate the image on the site, they should allow photographers to maintain the copyright.'

    Apparently they care more about freedom than having the highest quality images available. What more is there to say?

    1. Re:Freedom versus high quality pictures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      How exactly does rejecting images, which the author allows to be used within *.wikipedia.org, but not elsewhere, advance freedom?

      You're kidding, right? Let me rephrase your question to something with less tortured double-negatives:

      How exactly does only allowing images under Creative Commons, advance freedom?

      Well now isn't that just a stupid question? It advances freedom because the source material is free. Tada!

      One would think, etc. etc. blah blah BAWWWWW my images, giant axe to grind over Wikipedia and Obama, blah blah

      Well you clearly have an axe to grind over Wikipedia, and you're also butthurt about the current President of the United States of America. The last bit has nothing to do with the topic at hand, so that makes you either an idiot, or a troll.

    2. Re:Freedom versus high quality pictures by SolitaryMan · · Score: 5, Insightful

      To me the problem is the Wikipedia rule of public use,' says Jerry Avenaim, a celebrity photographer. 'If they truly wanted to elevate the image on the site, they should allow photographers to maintain the copyright.'

      Apparently they care more about freedom than having the highest quality images available.

      This is the good thing. I don't come to Wikipedia to see HQ images. I come for free information I can immediately use: quote or contribute. There are plenty of other sites, where you can find images.

      --
      May Peace Prevail On Earth
    3. Re:Freedom versus high quality pictures by FireFury03 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Apparently they care more about freedom than having the highest quality images available. What more is there to say?

      You could elaborate, I suppose... How exactly does rejecting images, which the author allows to be used within *.wikipedia.org, but not elsewhere, advance freedom?

      1. It means you don't have to deal with investigating the licence on every bit of content - if you want to reuse some content on Wikipedia then you *know* what the licence is because its all the same.
      2. Allowing non-CC licensed content would reduce the amount of CC licensed content on Wikipedia (articles would choose to use the "better" non-Free images *instead* of the Free ones), and that really would harm freedom.

      One would think, they want their pages to be printable and (re)publishable, but in that case, the authors wouldn't be credited (there is no author's name printed, when you print the page) — contrary to the current license...

      Yes, this is rather at odds with the licence - the Wikipedia templates really need to automatically add an attribution caption to all images that are embedded in a page.

      --
      http://blog.nexusuk.org
    4. Re:Freedom versus high quality pictures by Lumpy · · Score: 5, Informative

      Exactly. I am a professional photographer (Paid and published in several magazines) and some of my images I hold that ball and chain. but unlike others that do what I do, I gladly relinquish that. Wedding photos for example, pay me an extra $100.00 and I'll give you the full size digitals and a letter releasing reproduction rights to the couple. I get a crapload of work because I am the only photographer in this state that does this. I also get a lot of events because of that. A typical 3 day event my team will shoot nearly 30,000 photos with at least 15,000 of them good enough to give to the event organizers. Having a full reproduction release in hand on that pool size of photographs kicks the crap out of the prima-donnas that want a fee per image.

      The problem is that Wikipedia also does not really want professional images there. I submitted several of the great shots of Travis Tritt I took last year when I was on stage with him as photographer for one event, with a release terms they requested and they said no thank you. What they want is full release of OWNERSHIP not copyright. I refused to release ownership of the image, but gave them and everyone else pretty much whatever they want to do with it license. That was not good enough.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  3. Photographers do maintain the copyright of course by 3dWarlord · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They want to use wikipedia as a advertisement for their portfolio while still using a restrictive license for everyone else. This is a problem, of course, for the encyclopedia that aims to be free for anyone to copy, distrubute, modify as they please.

  4. They want to eat their cake and keep it by Arancaytar · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "I want the free publicity I get from having my images freely distributable, but I want to retain the sole right to distribute it."

    Not how it works.

  5. Photographer maintains copyright by incense · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If I'm not entirely mistaken, the photographer maintains the copyright, but the publishing on wikipedia under the creative commons allows everybody to use the photography as long as the photographer is credited.

    If photographers want to help, but are worried they'll lose control, why not upload lower than mint quality images?

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    testing 1 2 3
  6. Venue for Professional Photographers by gonz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Wikipedia provides full citations for the author/source of all uploaded photos. If a professional photographer wanted to increase his exposure (no pun intended), he could contribute to wikipedia under a free license. The upsides really dwarf the downsides.

    -Gonz

  7. The NYT doesn't understand the web by Shin-LaC · · Score: 5, Insightful

    See, NYT, it's not called a web because we like to imagine spiders crawling all over our internets. It's called that because pages are supposed to be joined into an interconnected mesh through hyperlinks. So, when your article on the bad photos on Wikipedia doesn't include a single link to the bad photos themselves, or to any page on wikipedia at all (I've checked, "wikipedia.org" doesn't occur even once in the page source), the impression you're giving is not "we're a respectable news organization", it's "we fail at the internet forever, kick us."

  8. Here's the thing... by SirFozzie · · Score: 5, Informative

    (Please note, stating my Conflict of Interest up front: I am currently a Wikipedia Administrator, one of the 2,500 or so)

    I do agree that photos are not a good spot for Wikipedia. And we're currently in a spot where our pictures are simultaneously decried as not good enough (this topic) and too good (http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/07/17/085244/New-Developments-In-NPGWikipedia-Lawsuit-Threat , the museum in question says that low res versions would be ok, but high res infringes on their copyright (note, the items in question are in the public domain in the US, but the laws regarding reproductions of items are a bit wonky in the UK)

    We are a free encyclopedia. The people who use the encyclopedia have a right to reuse the material on Wikipedia in any way possible. Therefore, we cannot present any material that doesn't meet the requirements, because outside the two categories (things permissible under the GFDL/CC-BY-SA licensing terms, and limited fair-use exemptions, usually when no other picture is possible, such as photos of a person who is no longer living).

    One could quite possibly argue that if we did not restrict items to these categories, then on other versions of Wikipedia, or otherwise legal use of Wikipedia (for example, reusing the article elsewhere), Wikipedia would be contributing to copyright infringement, or even considering the terms the rest of the website is under, encouraging copyright infringement.

    Do I (speaking more as a user of the encyclopedia, rather than an administrator) want professional looking photographs and information on Wikipedia? Yes, Of course. I would LOVE for a lot of professional photographers to be able to release their work. But it's their decision. If they don't want to donate the phots under the suitable license, then, unfortunately, we cannot use them.

    And I should say that there are categories where Wikipedia shines. Several governments including the German goverment (http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08%2F12%2F06%2F1654246&from=rss) have released hundreds of thousands of historical to current day photographs to be used on Wikipedia by the site's terms.

    I know a user on Wikipedia (who I am proud to call a friend), who makes it their mission to restore old, faded pictures and photographs. They have close to 300 featured picture credits to their name. There's a whole category at the Wikipedia Commons (a sister project to Wikipedia) that makes it their goal to restore these photos and historical documents. (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Potential_restorations).

    So it's an ever-improving process. We can only take what we are GIVEN, but everyday we're given more and more to work with.

    --
    People Talking in Movie shows.. people smoking in bed.. people voting republican.. GIVE THEM A BOOT TO THE HEAD!
  9. Pictures? by MadKeithV · · Score: 5, Funny

    I swear, I read wikipedia for the articles, not for the pictures!

  10. About that 'maintain the copyright' quote... by bheer · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The combination of the NYT's editing and Slashdot's summarizing has been rather unkind to that "they should allow photographers to maintain the copyright" quote, imho.

    > If a professional photographer wanted to increase his exposure (no pun intended), he could contribute to wikipedia under a free license.

    That's exactly what the guy who the quote was attributed to has done.

    The story quoted Jerry Avenaim, who has contributed his photos to Wikipedia, for example here. He says that photographers get paid very little for celebrity shots and make most of their money on resales of their photos (presumably print and online). If a freely licensed version on Wikipedia exists, then many publishers would simply take the wikipedia photo.

    Given that Avenaim himself has contributed photos, he's obviously aware of the upsides and the downsides of doing so - he even notes that he gets free publicity out of it. But re his "they should allow photographers to maintain the copyright" quote, it sounds like he meant Wikipedia should have a license that allows photographers to contribute _only to Wikipedia_ (presumably *.wikipedia.org) and still retain rights for usage of that photo anywhere else.

    I can see how this could be made to work. Have a 'better' photo for use on wikipedia.org, and point to an alternate free copy for use e.g. when other sites re-use wikipedia. That way photographers can contribute high-quality photos AND get paid, wikipedia gains, AND freedom to reuse is not lost.

    However, given that wikipedians are pretty hard-core about free (libre) content, it's unlikely anyone will take him seriously. Which is a pity. Good illustrations really enhance the value of an encyclopedia, but I'm guessing wikipedia won't compromise on its core 'free-ness' thing to get them.

    --
    Go somewhere random
    1. Re:About that 'maintain the copyright' quote... by slim · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I can see how this could be made to work. Have a 'better' photo for use on wikipedia.org, and point to an alternate free copy for use e.g. when other sites re-use wikipedia. That way photographers can contribute high-quality photos AND get paid, wikipedia gains, AND freedom to reuse is not lost.

      However, given that wikipedians are pretty hard-core about free (libre) content, it's unlikely anyone will take him seriously. Which is a pity. Good illustrations really enhance the value of an encyclopedia, but I'm guessing wikipedia won't compromise on its core 'free-ness' thing to get them

      It really would compromise the core free-ness thing in a practical way though.

      Currently Wikipedia works like "We're collaborating on this work, which you can take a copy of, to do whatever you like".

      With your modification it would be, "We're collaborating on this work. You can browse the premium edition here, or you can take a copy of the second class edition to do whatever you like".

      To me that's a massive difference, and a slippery slope.

  11. Image uploads are restricted by dalesc · · Score: 5, Informative

    I have a bunch of high quality images that I've taken and am happy to donate. However, when I tried to upload them I was prevented due to not having updated a sufficient number of articles. Until you've updated the text on something like 10 articles you can't upload any images. I simply haven't found that many articles I felt I could make a useful contribution to yet. It seems like an odd restriction to me. Unless you can prove you can write readable text, you can't upload pictures.

  12. Re:Don't see the problem. by BenEnglishAtHome · · Score: 5, Informative

    Why can't they release THOSE pictures under CC, instead of just throwing them in the trash?

    Having once made my living as a photographer, I'm severely disinclined to wade fully into this discussion. I can see both sides and I get really irritated at the way both sides, both through innocent ignorance and wilfull intent, so frequently misunderstand each other.

    About this one point, though, I'd like to say something. Good photographers are manic about making sure that every single piece of work they produce is as close to perfect as possible. You, the general public, my potential future clients, may only see one picture I've taken in your whole life. In that case, it had better be perfect if I'm going to stand any chance of getting any of your future business. That one photo is my representative to the world. The same thing is true of every photo I release.

    Thus, releasing anything that's substandard is self-defeating. Losing control of subsequent re-use, too, is self-defeating if it allows someone to put my work into some crappy collage or print it incompetently. (That last one really drives traditional wedding photographers crazy.)

    So no top-echelon photographer of the sort who is normally contracted to shoot celebrity portraits is ever going to say "Well, this photo is junk that I can't sell - so I'll just let it be published where millions of people will see it and come to associate my name with crappy work." It just ain't gonna happen.

    There's an old saying among photographers about how to properly assemble a portfolio. Divide your work into 4 piles. Pile 1 is the stuff that's not good enough. Pile 2 is the stuff that's almost good enough and you might put it in your portfolio if you have a particular hole you need to fill. Pile 3 is good enough to include in your portfolio. Pile 4 is those few, rare photos among the "good enough" that are something transcendant, that make you draw a sharp breath and say a little "Wow!" to yourself every time you see them. Then:

    Throw away piles 1, 2 and 3.

    Start over, repeating the process with pile 4. Continue periodically for 10 years. If you're lucky, you may actually have a good portfolio at the end of that process.

    Now, nobody actually does this. The practical consideration of stopping and selling a few photos so you can eat gets in the way. But the mindset is there. Releasing suboptimal work, no matter what public good it may do on the pages of Wikipedia, just goes against the grain of any good photographer.