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F-22 Raptor Cancelled
BayaWeaver writes "Slate reports that the F-22 Raptor has been cancelled by the Senate. At an estimated price tag of $339 million per aircraft, even the powerful military-industrial-congressional complex couldn't keep this Cold War program alive in these hard times. They look very cool though and have appeared in movies like Hulk and Transformers. But not to worry too much about the future of the military-industrial-congressional complex: the F-35 Lightning II begins production next year!
As a side note, in 2007 a squadron of Raptors became deaf, dumb and blind when they flew over the International Date Line."
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Fighters are needed less and less now a days, if we want air superiority we can just put up dozens of cheap drones with Air-to-Air missiles with remote pilots. I am pretty sure they would not cost $100+ millions each either.
If you look at when they actually are producing F35 vs F22 at nearly identical production rates, F22 is only a little bit more expensive. The main reason why F35 is projected to be significantly cheaper is they are planning on producing more of them at faster rates.
F-35 Flyaway Unit Cost
FY2011: $124.580 million (24 per year)
F-22 Flyaway Unit Cost
FY2007: $136.826 million (20 per year)
A bird in the hand is better than 2 in the bush. I'd bet F35 ends up costing just as much as F22.
Give me more F22s and fewer F35s.
As another comparison, the cost per hour in 2008 was $19K, compared to the F15 which was $17k. History shows that this typically goes down as the plane matures and is ironed out
I'm not arguing it shouldn't have been cancelled, but to outright bash it isn't being honest either. I'm hoping we don't find ourselves in a situation where we were wishing it hadn't been canceled because that means we're in a much bigger mess than we currently are in Iraq/Af.
I do believe in designing and building these things to stay sharp, but not thousands of copies in peacetime. (And yes, this is "peacetime" so far as the F22 is concerned - they have flown 0 sorties over Iraq and Afghanistan, and why would they?)
The pricetag on all this fancy military hardware goes up to beyond reasonable returns. We're losing the war to Al-Queda where their costs are nearly nothing (I suppose sending a fundamentalist nutjob to suicide bomber school is rather cheap) and the 2 Billion dollar bomber (The B-2 Spirit) crashes in 2008 in Guam on the way to fight him. As a taxpayer I think we need to say enough is enough and I think Congress is seeing the light. As far as I'm concerned, "slightly less capable, and far less expensive" is the exact tact we need to take as a country in the midst of a crippling recession.
Until Al-Queda grows an Air Force what's wrong with our fleet of 80's movie aircraft (the F-15, F-16, etc) The Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore. North Korea? What are they flying these days? MIG 29S's (their few but modern units - which match to the F-15) and MIG 21's (a Vietnam era unit)
I dunno, but didn't the Nazis lose with the current "Overengineering, exepensive and too few versus" principle the US is using today to the "Just barely good enough, cheap and lots of them" principle we had in WWII? The Tiger vs the Sherman?
We lost our way.
During war time, there should be no profit driven motivation for developing the military, period.
War industry employees should all work for subsistence wages, and really should be volunteers if not draftees. Industrial business should not even be allowed to take profits for the duration of war. If they must be paid, they should be paid in interest bearing war bonds that are redeemable upon victory. Take away the profit-driven parts of the equation, from raw materials down to workers being paid more than subsistence wages, and I'm sure the cost of these airplanes will be considerably lower per unit.
The stakes should be "winning the war so that the nation can continue to exist", not something that's even measurable in monetary value.
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It's not necessarily a superior craft from a combat standpoint.
My understanding is that the F-22 is much superior as an air-superiority fighter, but the F-35 has more air to ground capabilities. The difficulty with the F-22 is that the F-15 is still the most dominant air superiority fighter in the world, and because of the cost involved in making anythign remotely better, is likely to stay that way for a good long time. The "Super Power" enemies, such as they are, relied on a greater number of less capable aircraft because they couldn't afford the price of the nicer aircraft. So in some ways, the cost of the F-22 making fewer units practical plays into the hypothetical "Super Powers" hand.
The other factor to maintaining air superiority is the AWACS platforms which can direct the air war over very large distances. I think the West, and the US in particular has a huge advantage in that as well. Plus, as far as protecting our airspace goes, mounting air to air missiles on UAVs is just as easy as air to ground. So we would likely use those to counter any numerical superiority that our hypothetical "Super Power" posses as well.
Finally, FWIW, I subscribe to the two level theory of war. The first level is the infantry, the second level is everything else: it exists to support the infantry since only the infantry can take and hold ground. Artillery, sea power, aviation, even tanks can deny the enemy ground, but only the infantry can hold it. So more A-10s putting more ordance where the infantry needs it seems a better deal than F-22's holding air superiority over a non-existant enemy air force. IMHO.
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I have news for you: China is funding our wars.
They don't need to fight us. What, are they going to fund our war against China, too?
>80 column hard wrapped e-mail is not a sign of intelligent
>life
The whole needing F-22s if we ever get into a conventional war with a Great Power thing is a canard. Great Powers have nuclear weapons, so conventional wars aren't possible; we send in F-22s and 8 hours later half the planet is glass.
Conventional fighting these days is done against guys hiding in caves in third-world countries, and the F-22 does precisely nothing to help in those scenarios.
Actually, that was the thinking after WWII, armies would not be needed because of nukes, navies would no longer be needed, etc. But the way it worked out, nobody wanted to risk all out nuclear warfare so we saw proxy wars fought all over the place, Korea and Vietnam and Afghanistan and the like. The presence of nukes means that conventional wars probably won't become all-out world wars for risk of someone popping a nuke but it won't push all warfare out of consideration.
I'm extremely hard-pressed to imagine a scenario where we would be in an all-out technology war, the kind that Tom Clancy wetdreams about. As you said, they're all brush-fire wars right now with our opponents being decidedly low-tech. China's about the only scenario I can imagine with a high-tech war breaking out and that's still unlikely because we wouldn't dare risk fighting the guys who hold all our debt and sell us all our cheap plastic shit.
History is replete with examples of nations not properly assessing their threats and getting blindsided. But usually not everyone is surprised. A good example is with Japan. Pearl Harbor was a bolt from the blue for people who weren't paying attention to foreign affairs. It was not a surprise to the Navy who had been conducting exercises against mock Japanese forces for years, aka the "orange" navy. The Navy's only surprise was that the attack happened at Pearl and not in the Philippines. Congress had authorized more war spending in the period leading up to WWII but were slow about it because they still believed that Isolationism might still work.
But seriously, the F-22 is a cold war vestige and simply does not accurately reflect the current state of the battlefield. Shit, they were conducting the fly-off back when I was in jr. high! I think it was around '90 or so that they picked the 22 over the 23. I know this is some complex shit we're talking about but it still shouldn't take this long and cost this much.
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This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
What is your definition of being "just cool with people"? Do you really believe that the world will stop hating America if America stops meddling in other nations' affairs? What are your thoughts on interfering when a state-sponsored genocide is in progress? There is no happy medium. Large portions of the world are going to hate the United States of America no matter its foreign policy. You can't make everyone happy, and you certainly can't do it when they have already come to depend on you for one thing or another. It would not surprise me to see America the target of more hatred and violent attacks after returning to isolationism than in its most internationally-meddling times.
Even if everyone in the US unanimously decided that we were no longer going to meddle in international affairs other nations will inevitably drag us back into them due to the simple fact that we're an economic superpower. It's unavoidable.
And the US government already spends plenty on social programs. The problem, like with this F-22 program, is that the money isn't being spent wisely. The US in general already spends more on education per student than most countries, and many areas, including the city where I live spends close to double what any other country spends. And yet education is by and large crap compared to other countries. The reason isn't because we're not spending enough money, it's because we're not managing anything properly and have this idiotic notion that more money will fix anything.
And back to my original point, there are a lot of nations out there that could potentially become a threat in the future. I realize some people hold the believe that love will fix anything, but there are many more who disagree and may try to take advantage. China might currently be behind the US, but they sure are working hard to catch up, working on their own advanced fighter. Russia may not currently be a threat to the US, but they are working hard on their own competitors to the F22 and will certainly be selling the aircraft to China.
That said, it made sense to cut back the F-22 program although it really is a drop in the bucket compared to how much the government is spending.
I would certainly hope and expect that both the F-35 and F-22 would be superior to the F-15. My point was that no one else has anything yet that can compete with an F-15. My thought was that since the F-22 is really only for air to air combat, and there's no real opponent for what we already have, that it is filling a need we don't really have. That the F-35 does both, supports that even more.
I brought up the multiple support levels because the F-22 is extremely expensive for filling a role that isn't actually needed. It was meant to convey how far from supporting the troops its purpose is when compared to toher aircraft.
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A couple of enterprising guys in Israel sold classified US tank targeting technology to China which was then onsold to Iran and widely deployed. There was a US Senate inquiry about it in 2000 I think. That is probably one of the incidents the above poster is referring to.